February 2017 - Kansas City Home Theater Crawl - Page 38 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1111 of 1408 Old 02-21-2017, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
I have heard some people claim that doubling non-colocated subs can get up to 6db in some cases.

I'm not sure of the details, or how accurate this is.
Subwoofers are always collocated at some frequency and below if they are in the same room. Mutual coupling occurs when the center to center distance between drivers is less than 1/2 wavelength. At 50 Hz, 1/2 wavelength is 11.1644 ft.

My IB manifolds are 11' apart and combine for exactly 6 dB from ~45 Hz and down.

My IB manifolds can't be moved and were in the only location I could place them. When placing dual subwoofers in a room there are three things to balance: acoustic coupling, room mode suppression, and space loading (1/4 space vs 1/8 space).

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post #1112 of 1408 Old 02-21-2017, 09:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Saw this, laughed, and thought of Doug on Saturday night.



Funny Sunday when your wife saw the JTR 210RT in your living room and asked us whose they were, and when they were going home?
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Archaea's 9.8.4 Home Theater Room
(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric
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post #1113 of 1408 Old 02-21-2017, 09:53 AM
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It was really great meeting everyone at KC! This was my first GTG, so I was able to meet a lot of folks I've known for years on AVS. Good to put faces to the names.

A big thanks to all the hosts! All of your rooms were some of the nicest I've been to. You all should be very proud of what you've done with your HT...very impressed. I also appreciate you guys letting me grab your Tactile Response...hopefully it will help you as you continue to optimize your HTs.

Special thanks to @Archaea for coordinating this all. I know this is a monumental effort, and it went without a hitch. Great places and parties by @cvinfig and @Stoked21 ! Much appreciated guys, great way to start and end this trip for me.

Also thanks to @d_c for the FANTASTIC KC BBQ! Wow, some of the best I've had...IMO, much better than KC Joe's. Appreciate the room and board as well sir. You certainly go all in with the thing you're interested in...very cool.

Finally, special thanks to @HuskerOmaha , @Luke Kamp , and @femi . Appreciate you dragging me from the airport, all over KC, and back! Great company along the way.

Below are some of my highlights for each Host and also their Tactile Response and Frequency Responses. Based upon what I experienced from a TR perspective at this GTG, below is my subjective view of what a solid baseline TR level should be. More than that could be better or worse depending on your preference (more = better in my case ).

0-50hz = between 1e-05 and 1e-04
50-100hz = between 1e-06 and 1e-05

@cvinfig

I loved the design of your HT. The brick wall in the back made the room for me. The artwork in the back added to your room's uniqueness. Nice work. I didn't really have a good chance to truly demo your setup, but I liked what I heard.

Apologize for not being able to grab your TR. It was tough to do given that everyone was there...if you still want it, PM and I will walk you through it.

@jdontee




Awesome rear projection! Never seen that before...way cool! Even without Atmos, I thought your surrounds were one of my favorites in the group. Great detail...the Atmos clips felt like there were speakers over my head...they were that detailed!

Unfortunately, I didn't have the 2lb bag of sugar when I took your TR...so your TR isn't really comparable to others. If I had it, it would have definitely reduced that peak between 15hz and 30hz, and you would have had more of a flat curve.

@Archaea




Luke and I were pretty much arriving a 1/2 hour late to each demo because we were taking TR and FR measurements. I would have loved to spend more time at your place.

You have a seriously impressive setup! Lot of pressurization...lots. When I was standing in the back of the room, I kept checking behind me to see if there were subs on the ground...my pant legs kept flapping and was wondering how the hell they were doing that!

You had great TR...both from a LF/ULF standpoint as well as midbass. Definitely top 3 from an overall TR standpoint and your response confirms that. My demo scene was brave, and it was very visceral!

Some of the best TR extension of the entire group. It's DIFFICULT to get flat TR below 10hz, and you got great extension to 8hz or so. There's literally only a handful of folks I've seen with this type of extension...and even less if you consider this was all SUB powered; no transducers...

@d_c




Group B didn't get a fair demo I don't believe of what your system is capable of, but fortunately I did the night before.... Also, because it was a hybrid lunch time thing, we weren't able to grab and FR.

Crazy TR even at low volumes with that suspended floor, Ghorn, HS24 combo! The Ghorns were super stealth, and I kept asking myself "how is this TR possible...these things are in the ceiling!". You have very flat TR and great TR extension to about 12hz or so. The TR felt super natural because of those floors. Moving the 24 right behind the LP would have probably got you in the single digits.

@chldsplay




I really, really liked your setup. Very balanced with great TR...probably one of my favorite midbass TR rooms at the GTG. Also, really loved your surround setup...also one of my favorites. You ran some of the scenes hot...but I enjoyed it! High kick in the chest factor! Your hidden side room was also very cool...

You had solid TR extension to around 17hz or so...which makes sense give that's where your JTR Caps start to roll off. You can see how your midbass TR (50-100hz) is elevated and flatter relative to your 0-50hz TR. Others like Archaea were more sloped from 0-100hz. I think this was one of the reasons why your midbass TR was more pronounced.

@jedimastergrant




***EDIT: @desertdome and grant looked into this more, and it looks as though the responses above were only for the 212HTs...

Beautiful room...and my favorite picture of the GTG. Wow, the picture quality was lifelike...looked like an huge OLED screen! Loved your soundproofing too! Wish I did that from the beginning!

I thought your demo was very articulate. I felt your TR was lighter than others I had demo'd. This is probably a good thing when going for articulation. I'm not sure if there was something going on with the OS's at that time, but when Luke and I took the measurements, the results were odd. It confirmed that your TR was lower than others, but I wouldn't have predicted the FR and TR we gathered. As Luke mentioned, perhaps your speakers were set to large? In any case, still an impressive overall HT experience.

@chirpie

The shirts were awesome! Great design. Thank you sir...




Your demo presentation of the clips were my favorite. I loved how you put everything together and had your own take of the clips with the short intro to each. That was super cool. Also, your speakers aren't the typical popular brands these days, but let me assure you they gave up nothing to the others. I thought they sounded great and had all the dynamics.

Luke and I were old school with the FR tones...brought a CD. Chirpie didn't have a way to play a CD so we couldn't get an FR.

You had some solid TR...when I found out that you only had one ported SVS 12in sub in your room, I about fell over! How in the hell that little sub creates that much TR amazes me...but definitely confirmed by the measurements we took. You have a great TR room for that sub to produce what it did! So impressed...I kept telling other how shocked I was...

@Stoked21




I really like the layout of your room. You turned a multipurpose basement, and created a dedicated theater space that looked the part of a high end theater. I really like the design from the curtains, to the matching acoustic panels, theater rope, etc. Great looking room sir... Great dynamics and detail with the JTRs obviously...and great surrounds. Oh, and the electrostats were awesome as well.

Your TR was solid, and definitely had more in the rear row (MLP location) compared to the front row. I believe the lumpiness in your FR below 18hz was probably phase related; mixing ported and sealed...but the good news as that the phase issues likely created the strong TR you got between 10hz and 20hz. As far as FR goes, I don't think this was by design (as I know you mentioned something during the demo) but you're running your bass pretty hot from 50hz and below.

@carp




Last stop of the day...and it was one to remember. You had an awesome theater...really liked what you did with the black ceiling, etc. Very nice looking theater!

I was fortunate to stay later with carp, luke, and archaea...this was one of the highlights of the weekend. We got to do a lot of AB testing with Crowsons on/off, nearfield on/off, etc. Great info...and surprising (will create a separate post on that later).

The demo of the day for me though was the John Wick at your theater...I probably watched that 10 times after the group left. It was the most visceral experience I've had in a home theater ! I reclined the chair back (thank you archaea) so that it was basically touching the nearfield sub, and let the John Wick scene loose. It was so visceral that I found myself squinting with each gun shot! It was freakin' awesome! Not sure if I could watch an entire move like that, but for demo purposes, it's one to remember!

As you can see by your TR, you had one of the strongest of the group. You had the lowest extension in TR, to about 7hz...that is DIFFICULT to do. I also took TR measurements from the rear row....and you still had that single digit TR extension! You have a great TR room...and also probably the best PR (Pressure Response) as well. I was standing in the back of the room at times, and my hair would be moving! What??? Absolute craziness...congrats buddy.


Again, great GTG and look forward to the next one!

-Dom
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post #1114 of 1408 Old 02-21-2017, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Saw this, laughed, and thought of Doug on Saturday night.



Funny Sunday when your wife saw the JTR 210RT in your living room and asked us when they were going home?
Great caption. You know that everyone is tired, when all of us were falling asleep when watching Chronicles of Ridick at 8db below reference, Sunday night. Enjoyed the trip and hospitality. Sorry, that I am going to have to send a label for the RS600.
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post #1115 of 1408 Old 02-21-2017, 10:20 AM
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Thanks to everyone for taking your time and opening your homes to us. It was a great time!

I had a good time at the Alamo with JW2. The audio and video were both very good. Much better than the Denver Alamo I visited and saw Jurassic World in. Only complaint is the tables were a bit small. I didn't like JW2 quite as much as the first. But it was definitely a worthy successor and I can't wait to own it. The visit to Chuck's after was a lot of fun. I liked the theater room decor and setup. Very cozy and well thought out. The deck was awesome and it was a great way to open the event.

I was in Group C, so I'll just go through the day and what stood out. I guess the first thing that stood out was that we all 4 suck at coordinating without a firm base of caffeine in our system. Despite our best efforts we were a bit late getting to Kevin's (Chldsplay) home (some of us thought we were meeting in the restaurant area of the Holiday Inn while the rest of us thought we were meeting at the car). Luckily he was rotating people in and out in shifts so we didn't cause to much of a hiccup (and it was fun to help Slarity cheat on Scene It in the interim). The demo was great. The Deepwater Horizon material and the Battlefront demo were standouts and we didn't see them repeated the rest of the day. The Panasonic AE8000 continues to show what a great value it is.

The next stop was Derek's (Stoked21). Definitely the best Atmos I have heard to date. It created a great ambient presence no matter where you were in the room. I especially liked the camera going above and below the water line in the finale of Gravity. It really recreated the sound of submersion and seemed to pan from below you to over your head just like it should. The JVC RS420 looked amazing. I've been thinking the 520 may be my next projector, but that 420 made the decision much less easy. I will say the HDR demo on the 520 later in the day looked better than the Life of Pi demo we got here, but I think there was more tinkering with the 520 demo (HDR settings are kind of up in the air). My gut says that overall brightness/contrast/color of the 420 should get it closer to its siblings. Or maybe it was just the material. The Hacksaw Ridge demo was outstanding and sold me on getting a copy of it. It really showed off the punch and dynamics of the setup well.

Up next was JD (JDontee). As others have said, the rear projection setup is very impressive. Really looked great and didn't suffer much, if any, with ambient light. I liked the multichannel and 2ch audio inclusion. I did that with my demo on our 2015 crawl and felt it was great to show off the fidelity of the system. Very well thought out. And the center expansion processing works very well.

Next up was Doug's place. Great food! Thank you very much for putting in the time it took to make all of that. As the other posts have alluded to, there was a lot of chaos at this stop. I did kinda hear the JTR's, but the bass in the house made any kind of critical evaluation impossible. Russ and I both came to the conclusion that if the bass was turned up anymore, it would be going plaid. Also I don't know how your German Shepherd knew I was a softie, but she (I think it was a she) was my buddy on the deck and at the table. I didn't know what the house rules were or I would have totally given her table scraps

After filling up on BBQ and discovering that a basement stairwell can function as a port tube, it was on to Jonathon's. Great choices on demo material here. The JVC RS600 on display here may be the best picture I've seen in a home theater. It was dialed in beautifully. DLBeck's RS500 would give it a run for it's money, but it would be a close call. The inexpensive Makie speakers sounded great and were a fantastic example of a budget setup. A really well thought out and executed setup.

And up next was Sheldon (Carp). He's going to get high marks for A) showing a Pink Floyd demo clip and B) having to share a table at the Alamo with me while I attempted to eat a pizza in as little space as possible. Equipment wise I really enjoyed seeing my second of the new Epson's. His provided a better image than the demo in the local AV shop. Landon (Slarity) and I had a nice pro/con on these units vs. the JVC's and both certainly have their merits. A really solid overall presentation. No need to apologize for the lack of power to the subs either. They rocked.

Grant's (jedimastergrant) theater was the next stop. Another demo that used audio clips to good effect. As I mentioned above, the HDR demo here was really, really good. Best I've seen of the tech so far. The picture the RS520 threw here was top notch and second only to the RS600 from earlier. I think it boils down to the black floor being elevated a bit more for more light output. I'm not as much of a brightness junky as I am a black floor person. So really it's splitting hairs. I could see liking one more than the other based on just where you fall preference wise on that compromise. Top notch demo and setup. Oh and please tell me you have a Padawan Mary "ooooh Master Grant!". Sorry couldn't resist it.

And food at the Blue Moose. Good Mac n' Cheese. Good conversation. Not much more you could want.

And our last stop of the day, Ryan (Chirpie). The totally automated demo was great. The cards with ratings between clips was a lot of fun. The "Animal Abuse" in Kung Fu Panda was my personal favorite. This the first Sony 40ES I've seen in person. I've seen two 55ES projectors, so I was expecting the color and punch of those units with an elevated black floor due to the lack of DI. And it delivered. It's easy to see why it is such a popular budget option. As a B&W owner I dug the 600 series speakers. They sounded very natural on all the material and were especially nice on the Peter Gabriel clip (and now I have another disc to buy).

We didn't make it to the last stop. The minds were willing, the bodies were saying "SLEEEEEP!". So again thanks to everyone for making this possible. It's a lot of work doing these. It was great meeting all of you. I do think there has to be something in the water down there with regards to bass. As Russ put it "y'all are crazy". But it's a good kind of crazy .


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post #1116 of 1408 Old 02-21-2017, 10:46 AM
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I had a great time last weekend. I was in group B and here are my quick impressions:

JDontee: I was a little late to JD's demo and I only got to watch a few minutes at the end. I really liked the rear projection idea with the projector completely out of sight.

Archea's: Thanks for organizing this event. Archea's demo tracks were my favorites of the day especially the national anthem bit which sounded excellent on his system. I was surprised by the performance of the 11 identical mackies (relatively inexpensive speakers). The bass was very tactile and very well integrated.

d_c: Thanks for hosting the dinner. Great food. I really liked the how powerful the components were and how well they were hidden (2 Gjallerhorns in the ceiling )

Chldsplay: One of the best theaters of the day aesthetically. I thought the idea of the hidden door to the refreshments room was especially cool. The demo was unintentionally played at +2 above reference and it was very loud! It also shows how capable the speakers/sub were.

jedimastergrant: Very nice looking theater. Sounded closest to how I have mine setup. The picture from the RS520 was gorgeous during the Startrek UHD demo scene. I liked the fact that he has the projector completely setup in the adjacent room. The lens was even covered.

chirpie: Very nice space. Enjoyed the demo tracks. The bass was pretty good and it was hard to believe it is coming from one 12" subwoofer.

stoked21: A real reference capable system. Derek ran the demos I believe at reference and it was very loud and not harsh. Jeff brought the Captivator 4000ULF for a demo later and the whole first floor was flexing and we had to move some loose pieces of furniture so that they won't fall. Can't imagine what 2 of this sub would do!

carp: I especially liked the very large screen with the velvet surround. His theater was very tactile in the MLP that had an 18" sub right behind it. The 4722 speakers sounded very good and I liked the fact that it sounded good in several seats and not just the MLP because of the wide dispersion pattern.

Again thanks to all the hosts and all the members I had a chance to meet.
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post #1117 of 1408 Old 02-21-2017, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by jeahrens View Post
Thanks to everyone for taking your time and opening your homes to us. It was a great time!

I had a good time at the Alamo with JW2. The audio and video were both very good. Much better than the Denver Alamo I visited and saw Jurassic World in. Only complaint is the tables were a bit small. I didn't like JW2 quite as much as the first. But it was definitely a worthy successor and I can't wait to own it. The visit to Chuck's after was a lot of fun. I liked the theater room decor and setup. Very cozy and well thought out. The deck was awesome and it was a great way to open the event.

I was in Group C, so I'll just go through the day and what stood out. I guess the first thing that stood out was that we all 4 suck at coordinating without a firm base of caffeine in our system. Despite our best efforts we were a bit late getting to Kevin's (Chldsplay) home (some of us thought we were meeting in the restaurant area of the Holiday Inn while the rest of us thought we were meeting at the car). Luckily he was rotating people in and out in shifts so we didn't cause to much of a hiccup (and it was fun to help Slarity cheat on Scene It in the interim). The demo was great. The Deepwater Horizon material and the Battlefront demo were standouts and we didn't see them repeated the rest of the day. The Panasonic AE8000 continues to show what a great value it is.

The next stop was Derek's (Stoked21). Definitely the best Atmos I have heard to date. It created a great ambient presence no matter where you were in the room. I especially liked the camera going above and below the water line in the finale of Gravity. It really recreated the sound of submersion and seemed to pan from below you to over your head just like it should. The JVC RS420 looked amazing. I've been thinking the 520 may be my next projector, but that 420 made the decision much less easy. I will say the HDR demo on the 520 later in the day looked better than the Life of Pi demo we got here, but I think there was more tinkering with the 520 demo (HDR settings are kind of up in the air). My gut says that overall brightness/contrast/color of the 420 should get it closer to its siblings. Or maybe it was just the material. The Hacksaw Ridge demo was outstanding and sold me on getting a copy of it. It really showed off the punch and dynamics of the setup well.

Up next was JD (JDontee). As others have said, the rear projection setup is very impressive. Really looked great and didn't suffer much, if any, with ambient light. I liked the multichannel and 2ch audio inclusion. I did that with my demo on our 2015 crawl and felt it was great to show off the fidelity of the system. Very well thought out. And the center expansion processing works very well.

Next up was Doug's place. Great food! Thank you very much for putting in the time it took to make all of that. As the other posts have alluded to, there was a lot of chaos at this stop. I did kinda hear the JTR's, but the bass in the house made any kind of critical evaluation impossible. Russ and I both came to the conclusion that if the bass was turned up anymore, it would be going plaid. Also I don't know how your German Shepherd knew I was a softie, but she (I think it was a she) was my buddy on the deck and at the table. I didn't know what the house rules were or I would have totally given her table scraps

After filling up on BBQ and discovering that a basement stairwell can function as a port tube, it was on to Jonathon's. Great choices on demo material here. The JVC RS600 on display here may be the best picture I've seen in a home theater. It was dialed in beautifully. DLBeck's RS500 would give it a run for it's money, but it would be a close call. The inexpensive Makie speakers sounded great and were a fantastic example of a budget setup. A really well thought out and executed setup.

And up next was Sheldon (Carp). He's going to get high marks for A) showing a Pink Floyd demo clip and B) having to share a table at the Alamo with me while I attempted to eat a pizza in as little space as possible. Equipment wise I really enjoyed seeing my second of the new Epson's. His provided a better image than the demo in the local AV shop. Landon (Slarity) and I had a nice pro/con on these units vs. the JVC's and both certainly have their merits. A really solid overall presentation. No need to apologize for the lack of power to the subs either. They rocked.

Grant's (jedimastergrant) theater was the next stop. Another demo that used audio clips to good effect. As I mentioned above, the HDR demo here was really, really good. Best I've seen of the tech so far. The picture the RS520 threw here was top notch and second only to the RS600 from earlier. I think it boils down to the black floor being elevated a bit more for more light output. I'm not as much of a brightness junky as I am a black floor person. So really it's splitting hairs. I could see liking one more than the other based on just where you fall preference wise on that compromise. Top notch demo and setup. Oh and please tell me you have a Padawan Mary "ooooh Master Grant!". Sorry couldn't resist it.

And food at the Blue Moose. Good Mac n' Cheese. Good conversation. Not much more you could want.

And our last stop of the day, Ryan (Chirpie). The totally automated demo was great. The cards with ratings between clips was a lot of fun. The "Animal Abuse" in Kung Fu Panda was my personal favorite. This the first Sony 40ES I've seen in person. I've seen two 55ES projectors, so I was expecting the color and punch of those units with an elevated black floor due to the lack of DI. And it delivered. It's easy to see why it is such a popular budget option. As a B&W owner I dug the 600 series speakers. They sounded very natural on all the material and were especially nice on the Peter Gabriel clip (and now I have another disc to buy).

We didn't make it to the last stop. The minds were willing, the bodies were saying "SLEEEEEP!". So again thanks to everyone for making this possible. It's a lot of work doing these. It was great meeting all of you. I do think there has to be something in the water down there with regards to bass. As Russ put it "y'all are crazy". But it's a good kind of crazy .

Well said Joel. It was also a lot of fun hanging out with you and the others in group C. It was a long day, but it seem like till I got home and was very tired. I need to take my wife to one of these theaters or the one the have a local AV store so she know what I am trying to build. I think I am going with one of the Epson's 5040/6040 or one of the Sony's 40ES/45ES. Still trying to decide on the 4K or not yet. I am going to Atmos that is for sure after hearing all the theaters, but Jdontee's 7.2 setup was pretty cool too.
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post #1118 of 1408 Old 02-21-2017, 11:42 AM
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What a weekend....

Huge thanks to the crew that organized and hosted this, I had a great time and learned a bunch.

Thanks so much for welcoming a random bunch from the Internet into your homes and treating us as well as you did.
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post #1119 of 1408 Old 02-21-2017, 11:52 AM
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All this talk of one 4000ULF....

Yawn....


So I had to order 2.
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post #1120 of 1408 Old 02-21-2017, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Saw this, laughed, and thought of Doug on Saturday night.



Funny Sunday when your wife saw the JTR 210RT in your living room and asked us whose they were, and when they were going home?
Haha, glad Doug has an understanding wife... I just said before all that, "Yea a bunch of JTR stuff got left here in KC for people to play around with." I had ya covered @d_c , at least temporarily.

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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
All this talk of one 4000ULF....

Yawn....


So I had to order 2.
You may be the first, but my guess is you won't be the last.


Fun weekend guys! I didn't get in until after 1am ET so I am going to reserve my review for later, after my slightly delusional state from lack of sleep gets remedied. I had a TON of fun and will certainly expound on my experiences soon enough. In the meantime, ya'll can't see past my shades.

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post #1121 of 1408 Old 02-21-2017, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Ladeback View Post
Well said Joel. It was also a lot of fun hanging out with you and the others in group C. It was a long day, but it seem like till I got home and was very tired. I need to take my wife to one of these theaters or the one the have a local AV store so she know what I am trying to build. I think I am going with one of the Epson's 5040/6040 or one of the Sony's 40ES/45ES. Still trying to decide on the 4K or not yet. I am going to Atmos that is for sure after hearing all the theaters, but Jdontee's 7.2 setup was pretty cool too.
I don't feel like 4K has the impact that DVD to Blu Ray had, but I don't think I would buy a new projector today without it. HDR and expanded color gamut are bigger selling points for me than the raw resolution. The media will keep shifting to 4K getting the premium features. Now what 4K projector is it's own argument. I think you're firmly in the Epson camp and it's a solid choice.
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post #1122 of 1408 Old 02-21-2017, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
Cap 4000ULF at 63 Hz measured 127.9 dB
SI HT18 at 63 Hz measured 122.3 db . . . with 283 volts.
One very important misunderstanding here as pointed out by Archea is compression. Looking at 63Hz, you can see that on the multi-level sweeps the driver produced ~112.6dB @ 63Hz in the 40V low to high sweep showing about 0.9dB of compression. 283V/40V is 17dB, but 122.3dB shows 7.3dB of compression here, meaning the getting past 120dB needed a LOT more power.

This suggests the 8x SI18 drivers with a 625W each (I saw this mentioned, didn't look up the power) should be capable of around 132dB at 63Hz in a sweep, and I would expect 1-4 more dB in a burst test, especially with real impedance and amplifier rail Voltage. Closer to 20Hz we would expect around 101dB @ 20Hz in a sweep, which would result in about 119dB at 20Hz in a sweep which is a smidge more than the 117.9dB the 4000 ULF produced in its sweeps (about 1.5dB more in burst testing).

So 8x SI18 subs with limited power should definitely best the 4000ULF overall above 16-20Hz and be close below. That says a lot about both the 4000 and what a lot of drivers with modest power can do.
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post #1123 of 1408 Old 02-21-2017, 01:33 PM
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Sure the two high powered, beast driver's in a ported cab are close to 8 underpowered sealed subs, but the real takeaway should be ported >>> sealed.

Two ported HST18's would have a similar comparison to the 8 sealed HT18's.
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post #1124 of 1408 Old 02-21-2017, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

So 8x SI18 subs with limited power should definitely best the 4000ULF overall above 16-20Hz and be close below. That says a lot about both the 4000 and what a lot of drivers with modest power can do.
That's why everyone needs two! Good hanging with you and @Jeff Permanian again this weekend! Always a good time catching up. I'm going to be researching into some of those wide body skis you and I were discussing.

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post #1125 of 1408 Old 02-21-2017, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
One very important misunderstanding here as pointed out by Archea is compression.
Correct, I did not take that into consideration. However, I see 108.74 dB at 63 Hz with 40v instead of the ~112.6 dB you mention. You were looking at 71 volts. Can you recalculate?

Here are the graphs that show what Mark is talking about. When going from 40v to 283v, the SPL increased 13.5 dB instead of the expected 17 dB.

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post #1126 of 1408 Old 02-21-2017, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
That says a lot about both the 4000 and what a lot of drivers with modest power can do.
Beware of a lot of drivers with modest power.

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post #1127 of 1408 Old 02-21-2017, 02:21 PM
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Finally have time for a quick post. I'll try to add more later.


Thanks to all of the KC area hosts for the hospitality and making the time to hang out with all of us out of towners. Everyone's theater was impressive in its own way and had something different to offer. That's the first time I've been to the KC area and it seems like a chill place to live. I'm sure the amazing weather we had all weekend helped a bit.

This seems appropriate here...
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post #1128 of 1408 Old 02-21-2017, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
One very important misunderstanding here as pointed out by Archea is compression. Looking at 63Hz, you can see that on the multi-level sweeps the driver produced ~112.6dB @ 63Hz in the 40V low to high sweep showing about 0.9dB of compression. 283V/40V is 17dB, but 122.3dB shows 7.3dB of compression here, meaning the getting past 120dB needed a LOT more power.

This suggests the 8x SI18 drivers with a 625W each (I saw this mentioned, didn't look up the power) should be capable of around 132dB at 63Hz in a sweep, and I would expect 1-4 more dB in a burst test, especially with real impedance and amplifier rail Voltage. Closer to 20Hz we would expect around 101dB @ 20Hz in a sweep, which would result in about 119dB at 20Hz in a sweep which is a smidge more than the 117.9dB the 4000 ULF produced in its sweeps (about 1.5dB more in burst testing).

So 8x SI18 subs with limited power should definitely best the 4000ULF overall above 16-20Hz and be close below. That says a lot about both the 4000 and what a lot of drivers with modest power can do.


Well I was going to post to clear this up but now I don't need to. Thanks Mark!


Mark is right there is a severe amount of compression in a lot of the CEA-2010 testing. All you have to do is look at the data. Sometimes adding 50 more volts only nets another couple tenths of a dB. The voltage numbers being quoted for Carp's setup earlier seemed way off also. If he is running 8 drivers the load will end up a different impedance than a single. Not sure that was factored in. The short story is the 4000 will hold its own and should be comparable 10-20Hz, but will give up some headroom above there. Jeff would say the same I'm sure. It's a monster of a sub no doubt but the physical laws still apply.
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post #1129 of 1408 Old 02-21-2017, 02:50 PM
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That's why everyone needs two! Good hanging with you and @Jeff Permanian again this weekend! Always a good time catching up. I'm going to be researching into some of those wide body skis you and I were discussing.
It was a lot of fun to catch up with you and many others this weekend. We need to keep finding more excuses for fun gatherings of enthusiasts to talk and reassure each other that there are other nuts out there like us!

While there are many awesome skis available these days, I'm a big fan of what Volkl offers. I'd be sure to include the 100EIGHT & 90EIGHT in what you check out. The 100EIGHT has full rocker and is wider for awesome performance for any case with >1" of soft snow, while the 90EIGHT has tip/tail rocker with some camber underfoot that will be more familiar railing on groomers but still tons of fun in moderately deep snow. The Nordica Enforcer is another great all-around ski, but often limited in availability.
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post #1130 of 1408 Old 02-21-2017, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
Right, I'm under powered for sure. Still, above 40 hz it's less than a 10 db difference. I get 15 ish db's of boost above 40 hz from 1 sub to 8. So, that's 5 db's more which I'm guessing would more than make up for the fact that I'm under powering them, but maybe not.

Doesn't really matter... I have all the subs I can just compare for myself, I don't mind finding max output when I have the remote!
Hi Carp, Looking over this I wanted to check, how do you have the HT18s wired to the amp vs channels?

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post #1131 of 1408 Old 02-21-2017, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Saw this, laughed, and thought of Doug on Saturday night.







Funny Sunday when your wife saw the JTR 210RT in your living room and asked us whose they were, and when they were going home?


Sure wasn't funny for me, sucka!
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post #1132 of 1408 Old 02-21-2017, 03:32 PM
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Correct, I did not take that into consideration. However, I see 108.74 dB at 63 Hz with 40v instead of the ~112.6 dB you mention. You were looking at 71 volts. Can you recalculate?

Here are the graphs that show what Mark is talking about. When going from 40v to 283v, the SPL increased 13.5 dB instead of the expected 17 dB.

Oops. Too much multi-tasking on that one. The 63Hz value was the one I missed. The others were correct. This makes the 63Hz number around 128.6dB. Again, I would expect burst to be higher, especially as the HT18 is effectively an 8 Ohm load above 13Hz per Josh's measurements. I'd need to confirm how carp has the amp connected, but the amp can probably swing more like 60-66V across the driver over a good bit of the range.

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post #1133 of 1408 Old 02-21-2017, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Hi Carp, Looking over this I wanted to check, how do you have the HT18s wired to the amp vs channels?
I have d4's so I have 4 drivers per channel for a 2 ohm load on the CV amp. Is that all the info you need?

With this setup it would be tough to get much more output. Even if I bought another CV amp I would then be at 4 ohms and around 900 watts per driver for a massive 1.5 increase in total output. Correct me if I'm wrong about that.
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post #1134 of 1408 Old 02-21-2017, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Ricci View Post
If he is running 8 drivers the load will end up a different impedance than a single. Not sure that was factored in.
I thought he was running 4 drivers per channel and calculated at 6.3 ohms for the impedance for around 31 v peak per driver for a burst test.

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I'm very familiar with Sheldon's room and I didn't hear the Cap 4000 ULF do anything strikingly better than the eight 18"s.
Just to clarify, the Cap 4000ULF was never run at its maximum output in Carp's room. I promised Carp we wouldn't damage anything.

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post #1135 of 1408 Old 02-21-2017, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
I have d4's so I have 4 drivers per channel for a 2 ohm load on the CV amp. Is that all the info you need?

With this setup it would be tough to get much more output. Even if I bought another CV amp I would then be at 4 ohms and around 900 watts per driver for a massive 1.5 increase in total output. Correct me if I'm wrong about that.
There are some interesting possibilities if you could have someone take an impedance curve of one of your boxes as the D4 might have a bit less motor strength and I don't know the DCR. The way to bump output is to add another amp and wire coils in parallel with 2 per channel. I suspect the load is still plenty high for your amp to drive them, but that would generally bump to ~1200W per driver. You might have to add another breaker at that point though.
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post #1136 of 1408 Old 02-21-2017, 03:40 PM
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I have another 20 amp line right next to the one I plug the CV into. Hmmm.....
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post #1137 of 1408 Old 02-21-2017, 03:41 PM
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I have d4's so I have 4 drivers per channel for a 2 ohm load on the CV amp. Is that all the info you need?
I originally thought you had D4's, but then Luke told me your impedance was higher so I changed it to D2's. Information overload.

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post #1138 of 1408 Old 02-21-2017, 03:42 PM
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I originally thought you had D4's, but then Luke told me your impedance was higher so I changed it to D2's. Information overload.
My nearfield is D2 but the 8 are d4's.
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