February 2017 - Kansas City Home Theater Crawl - Page 40 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1171 of 1408 Old 02-23-2017, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chirpie View Post

A few additional notes:


@dominguez1 Love that you’re bringing another measurement of objectivity in how we perceive audio. This group in particular I think appreciates this metric.
Thanks for the shout out!

When it comes to LFE, there are four dimensions to a great experience:

  1. SPL Capability (ability to play loud and low)
  2. Sound Quality - Frequency Response, decay, group delay, time alignment, etc.
  3. Tactile Response - What we 'feel' through other objects like the couch we sit on or the floor
  4. Pressure Response - what we feel direcly on our bodies (pressure, weight, hair moving, chest slam, etc.)


We are well versed in the first two dimensions.

It's the third and fourth dimension that we all experience, but typically treat it as a "set and forget" type approach; if you get 1 and 2 right, then three and 4 have to be great as well, right?

With recent tools like the Vibsensor, we've discovered that is NOT the case in many situations.

Would you ever drop in subs without looking at how your room affects your frequency response? Of course not (well most of us anyway)...

The same principle applies to Tactile Response...but yet typically this is what we've done in the past because we haven't had a way to measure it, and thus optimize it.

This is why understanding your TR is just as critical to optimize your overall LFE experience.
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post #1172 of 1408 Old 02-23-2017, 06:50 AM - Thread Starter
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@dominguez1 ,


Did many participate in your survey? I did not because I was a host and so didn't got to all the different rooms.
https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/VYMZS3Q


Can you wrap some further commentary around your objective measurements you showed us a few pages back? Is there any consideration that one axis vs. another in movement is more important? (I wouldn't think so - but making sure I understand).


Did your personal subjective observations line up with your objective measurements?

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(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric
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post #1173 of 1408 Old 02-23-2017, 07:08 AM
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Here are a couple of short clips of the 4000ULF in action from the crawl:


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My home theater
Speakers: 3 JTR 212HTR (LCR), 2 Jtr Single 8LP (S), 2 JTR Triple 12LF (SB)) , 4 Volt 10LX (Atmos)
Subwoofers: 10 Sealed UXL-18, 5 Crowson Shadow 8 transducers, 3 Buttkicker LFE
Display: JVC RS400
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post #1174 of 1408 Old 02-23-2017, 11:29 AM
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What up fellas.

Quite an epic event.

2017 KC HT GTG Awards are coming soon, so stay tuned.

2017 KC HT GTG Awards


Most Likely to Out Party You: @d_c
Most Likely to be Stabbed by a Stranger: @carp
Most Likely to Rat You Out To Your Wife: @Archaea
Most Likely to Speak the Least at any GTG: No Longer @Jeff Permanian
Most Likely to Try to Convince you that your entire theater can be ran off of a single 15 Amp Breaker: @Stoked21
More coming soon...
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post #1175 of 1408 Old 02-23-2017, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Is there any consideration that one axis vs. another in movement is more important? (I wouldn't think so - but making sure I understand).
some research available on human perception of random vibration indicates that correlation of subjective perception to objective measurement is markedly improved when xy (left-right, back-forth) vibration is given markedly greater weight than z (up-down).

fwiw I'm writing an app for a more accurate/feature rich diy tactile response measurement system which will build in a TR target curve into a measurement and then allow you to see a delta from target, i.e. so you can tune PEQ as you go to try to dial in TR (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...ion-meter.html). I only have my room to go on but this approach certainly worked for me.
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post #1176 of 1408 Old 02-23-2017, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
some research available on human perception of random vibration indicates that correlation of subjective perception to objective measurement is markedly improved when xy (left-right, back-forth) vibration is given markedly greater weight than z (up-down).

fwiw I'm writing an app for a more accurate/feature rich diy tactile response measurement system which will build in a TR target curve into a measurement and then allow you to see a delta from target, i.e. so you can tune PEQ as you go to try to dial in TR (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...ion-meter.html). I only have my room to go on but this approach certainly worked for me.
This is great...haven't been able to get into the details of your latest post...but I just gave you a bazillion likes.

This is great stuff...it took me forever to splice together the Vibsensor charts...turned out pretty good, but took way to long.

A quick suggestion: insert the image of the phone and the 3 axis on your charts for quick reference.
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post #1177 of 1408 Old 02-23-2017, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
@dominguez1 ,


Did many participate in your survey? I did not because I was a host and so didn't got to all the different rooms.
https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/VYMZS3Q
Right now only 4 have submitted...and one of those is me.

I'd tried taking the survey during the crawl...and it was pretty tough. The event really didn't cater to this type of survey (this was last second on my part, so was never supposed to) since it was musical chairs and different songs in each HT. Additionally, it's hard to rate each HT in a seat that's not the optimized MLP...so the experiences could be very different depending on where you sat.

Having said all that, I still think it would be good info...so, would if you guys could take 5min and answer the three question survey, that would be great. I will post any results I get on Sunday.
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post #1178 of 1408 Old 02-23-2017, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Can you wrap some further commentary around your objective measurements you showed us a few pages back? Is there any consideration that one axis vs. another in movement is more important? (I wouldn't think so - but making sure I understand).


Did your personal subjective observations line up with your objective measurements?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
some research available on human perception of random vibration indicates that correlation of subjective perception to objective measurement is markedly improved when xy (left-right, back-forth) vibration is given markedly greater weight than z (up-down).
Regarding the different axis...to be honest, we are all still learning. 3 brings up some good points, but I haven't had the conditions to confirm or deny that claim. To have the right conditions, we'd have to be able to control the vibration per axis, and then subjectively determine if it does in fact feel stronger if X and Y are also stronger. Not sure this condition can be accomplished in an HT, and would have to be done in a lab with some pretty sophisticated machinery I would think...

One thing I was planning to do, but haven't done yet is create the new ULF card for each HT that considers 3 of the 4 dimensions I discussed. I say 3, because we have the tools readily available to measure 3 of them:

SPL Capability - Max SPL or ULF Score
Sound Quality - FR via REW or Omnimic
TR - Vibsensor
PR - No cost effective tool available that I know (Sound Intensity Meters and Particle Velocity meters are commercially available, but very expensive).

The idea is that if we know three of these and give them a 'score', then HTs with similar scores would have a similar experience.

Subjectively, I would say you and Carp's HT experiences were very similar....again, we didn't conduct proper listening demos to really compare, so take it with a grain of salt.

SPL Capability - You guys both have similar size rooms and similar spl capability, and thus have similar ULF scores.

Sound Quality - Both of you run sealed and have FR's that extend to 5hz.

TR - Both of you have generally similar TRs that extend to the 7 and 8hz range for vibration.

PR - Both of your rooms had similar pant flapping, hair moving experiences.


The only difference would be that Carp has Crowsons, and you do not. I know you said Carp's JW was more visceral than yours...but when I did AB testing during that JW scene with the Crowsons on/off, I really couldn't tell a difference. I had to really focus to notice any difference at all.

So the objective data with the three dimensions I described above, do match the subjective data when I was experiencing your HTs: both extremely capable, lots of TR and PR.

Mind you, this is all from the MLP. I believe carp has the advantage outside of that because his second row is on a riser. As a result, the crawl attendees would probably give him the nod just because there was more TR over all seats.

d_c's room was extremely tactile and his TR reflected that...but like carp (and even more so), he'll get the nod for the entire room because the entire floor is shaking. I bet if you just compared MLP to MLP, it would be more similar.

Although Chirpies room was a surprise because he only runs that 12in SVS ported, my subjective TR matched his Vibsensor reading. He really did get some good TR in that room!

The big surprise to me was really chldsplay's room. No nearfield, rise in the back, but it was VERY tactile, especially the midbass. As I mentioned before, his TR was flatter overall from 0-100hz, so I think this contributed to more even vibration and not accentuating ULF more. He did have my favorite midbass TR.
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post #1179 of 1408 Old 02-24-2017, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
instead of being amp limited, or driver limited, or breaker limited (like I am) you are no consequences/you won't get anymore volume out of it limited with the 4000. Yes, I understand that I am very much amp limited but I like to think of it as breaker limited since I can't do any damage to the amp, the breaker trips first.


I should have done the comparison Sunday. Everyone had me scared for my house with the impressions of how nuts the 4000 is from Derek's and especially Doug's! They were all right of course it is nuts, but I don't think it can do anymore damage to my house than I've already done. It would have been fun to do a bunch of scenes back to back with each sub(s).
I would have loved to hear that. As far as the "limitations" of the 4000ulf....that's just fun to even think about. Those SP amps coupled with that type of driver capability is a match made in heaven.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
Also, this was hardly conclusive because it was just one scene. If I put in something with lots of output in the teens who knows how it would go. If I get time tomorrow I might try out bass I love you because it has that long drawn out 17 hz centered tone. That quick hitting 8hz tone shouldn't hurt anything on the 4000 should it? I'm sure Jeff has filters in place to protect the drivers.
I will be interested in this too. We did NOT have any type of HPF at dereks when we did this song and man, that 8hz blip was ever-present. Even more so, on Carbon Previals there is a 3hz blip that when Austin, Andrew and I were upstairs in his kitchen, we could clearly feel the floor ripple quickly when that note hit. Yea yea, ported designs need a hpf to knock out all the distortion below tune. Not so much when you are tuned as low as this particular unit... Protection notwithstanding.

I'd also like more of your thoughts on how technical drum tracks sound. Good double kick metal tracks and such. Some scenes with very quick transients like Book of Eli gatlin gun scene or Act of Valor 50 cal shots would be cool to hear your impressions on as well if you feel like it.

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post #1180 of 1408 Old 02-24-2017, 11:31 AM
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Suppose it's time for my review on this relatively slow Friday.

First off, I had an unbelievable time with all of you guys and kudos to everyone for pulling it off without any major hitches.....except for basically every HTPC in the KCMO area, which all apparently decided they wanted to suck for the weekend, especially Doug's. I learned a valuable lesson from you all there. Thanks first off for saving me a few $1000 on all of that garbage.

Want to know what isn't garbage? Yall's BBQ. My goodness I had the meat sweats Monday night. I had my local BBQ place for lunch today just to bring back old times and my overall opinion of their superb ribs has been permanently tainted. I also never new of this "Cheesy Corn" thing that you guys do out there. I literally had never even heard of such things, but I have to say, it was life altering, especially Doug's homemade rendition. q39 burnt ends, KC Joe's Zman sammy, and a crowne rib at Jack Stack that put me in the mind of Fred Flinstone was just how you draw up a perfect weekend for this meatatarian. My new cholesterol medication isn't even that big of a deal.

Speaking of @d_c , thanks for letting me whip your golf cart, and potentially making a few of the guys almost soil themselves when we came zooming down to the boat dock. I am not sure exactly what your wife thought when she saw some random dudes peeling out of your driveway, slinging a huge wrench into the middle of the street as she was approaching in her car, but it is almost something she seemed used to. She is a very tolerant and wonderful woman, consider yourself a lucky man. Also dude, when your daughters get to be of the age of dating, you are going to be in a mell of a hess my man. You'll have the whole boy's soccer team wanting to come over just to hang out and party.

HUGE shoutout to @Archaea for oh so many reasons. Coordinating this spectacular event, letting a brother crash at his crib, wonderful breakfast, and keeping his foot on the gas basically all weekend so that we could accomplish all that we did. What fun! On to the room reviews, I apologize if I forget one

@Archaea had the first room I saw, and we played around a little the night before with some atmos demo clips and such. A very home-y setup that begs you to spend time in it. I loved the ultimax rig. Those CF inverted cones just look gorgeous. To date this system has the absolute best surround and atmos envelopment that I have ever heard. It is absolutely seamless and extremely detailed when it comes to the pinpointing of effects. Truly incredible. Scene it was a great time, but I would have rather spent that time with MK:X And no, the McPhee song will not be making my demo ready playlist, but it did sound wonderful nonetheless. That Chappie little dude on the trumpet creeped me out with all his facial expressions. I am extremely jealous of the playback levels you are capable of using after "Bedtime" in your space. I gotta figure out some way to get to this point in my own HT.

Next up was @JDontee and his absolutely incredible rear projection system. So many people don't realize the incredible amount of detail that can be had via projector these days, but when you don't even have the PJ in the same room, it's simply breathtaking how good it looks! Well balanced system and great sound overall. I particularly liked the color scheme in your room, and if you have seen any pics of my HT, you'd probably understand why

After these two stops was our trip to @d_c 's where the beer started flowing and volume rocker started cranking. I don't know if it was a divine vision that came to doug to install two Ghorns in his ceiling, but my God what a fantastic idea. I already touched on the food and fun so I'll leave the rest short here. Your mains in the TV room on the main floor were incredible. That finish is simply stunning. The angled front baffles and built in SEOS just look killer. Getting to hear those fantastic 210's was also incredible and they immediately vaulted to the top spot of my favorite JTR speaker list. Their full range capability is uncanny.

Next up was @jedimastergrant 's spot. What a wonderfully designed room for your brio train setup. I had so much fun playing with it.

Haha, in all seriousness, you could clearly tell that Grant's room was meticulously thought out to the T. Separate room for the PJ, brilliant. Velvet front section, black hole excellence. You calibrated HDR image has given me a benchmark for when I get to trying to dial in my own RS520. I know what it is capable of now, and I can't wait to get an image like I saw on your screen. I'm pretty sure there was an Orbit Shifter there but I couldn't tell. Get back there next time you pull the screen down for something and give that gain knob a nice clockwise twist my man!!! (In all honestly, the sound was very well balanced and not excessive in any way, I just like all things in excess so this is simply personal taste here...) BTW Grant, got a little something heading your way so be on the lookout.

Since I mentioned excess, ah yes, we have @carp 's room. Having heard all the components in his room before, I was very excited to hear how they were all implemented in his room. Nothing disappointed me. We cruised through some familiar material that I really enjoyed hearing in a different space than my own. It was about halfway through that I started questioning my own sanity when it came to the bass level however. I loved different curves that @carp had dialed in but it wasn't until we stuck the "JW" curve on that I finally found that sweet spot I was waiting for. visceral, tight, impacting. I loved it. the 4722's do a wonderful job supplemented by the ever potent multi SI sub stacks. I would have liked to hear some two channel metal for a little while but perhaps next time around. Your screen is simply massive, and the epson's lens switching is so many miles ahead of the JVC's it's silly.

After that, the A -team went to sir Chirpie's age old theater with the magical SVS sub in it. If you had have told me that room was 11 years old I would have never believed you. If you had have told me after that, that there was only a single 12" sub in there, then I would have started to think you were a pathological liar. The "Coordinated and preparedness" award goes to this man. The simplicity of controlling your entire demo without ever even setting foot in your theater was impressive and hilarious at the same time. The "Snootiness" factor got @popalock and giggling a little bit on that last concert clip. I will look forward to the new space taking shape! I know it will be in good form after seeing this first space of yours.

The final stop before Derek's space was @ChldsPlay 's room with the super cool hidden torture chamb...I mean equipment and snack room. The wall panels and overall room design was I think my favorite of the weekend. The room had excellent dynamics while still maintaining a stylish yet subtle profile. The individually wrapped panels just looked killer. I am sorry we missed all but the very last of the demo as our meal took a little longer than anticipated, but boy oh boy and I glad we at least got to get a little time in there.

On to @Stoked21 (aka "Just turn to 11")'s spot for the night cap and my first experience with the cap4000ULF. What a beautiful home first off. We didn't really get to do much demoing at this stop as the night was pressing on and people from the other groups started filing in not long after we had been there. Ok, enough of the small talk here, let's get onto the star of the show for this stop:

THOSE FRIKKIN RISOTTO BALLS.

Oh yea, and that little sub that was up front, the cap4000 ULF. It did violent things to me and I liked it. I apologize profusely that my east coast counterparts got tired and had to go home to take their melatonine and get a good night's rest. I would have been in for the long haul and would have enjoyed drinking the sun up with a trashed Doug and Derek. Maybe next time gents. It was quite a long day and in the end I am glad I got a decent night's rest as:

The following day at carps might still have been my favorite part of the whole weekend. Buncha dudes talking shop, jamming music and movie clips, and kickin' it on that BA covered porch. We couldn't have asked for better weather, and it was awesome just to wander around and hear all the different rando conversations being had. I can't wait to hear what the issue might have been with the 212's but I will be interested when it comes about. I would have again liked to A/B the Jbl's with the 212's but I guess it's good we didn't as with whatever was going on with the demo rig, it would have not been a very fair comparison. Listening to the cap4k do its thing again while everyone except Andrew and I were upstairs "feeling" the floor bounce like a no-tell motel bed was incredible. Such a good time.

Ok I am sure I missed some things but I feel this post is getting a little long in the tooth. Next time this type of thing goes down fellas, you can just go ahead and count me in. Incredible hospitality all around. Good times chillin' with the guys I already knew well, and absolutely wonderful to meet so many more of you in person.

This weekend is going to be boring af in comparison....

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post #1181 of 1408 Old 02-24-2017, 03:05 PM
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Nice post Beast!!


Hold the phone on my very unscientific comparison between 8 freaking drivers and a single 4000.

Last night when trying out vibsensor I was getting quite a bit more between 10 and 20 hz with the sealed subs which would explain why I liked them better when doing an A/B test. However, I bumped up the low frequency boost knob on the back of the 4000 and got a very similar result with the 4000, meaning hitting 1e-03 levels around 12 hz on both the sealed setup and the 4000.

I used the omnimmic to see if there was any compression and it looks like there is some, so not sure how it will effect real world content play back. I haven't had time to check it out but plan to tomorrow morning.

I'll post all the vibsensor comparisons once I feel like I have optimized all the levels of both the sealed and 4000 subs.

I thought I had maxed out what the 4000 could do, but if backing of the overall level of the 4000 while boosting the LF on the amp gives the same or better results than the 8 sealed then
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post #1182 of 1408 Old 02-24-2017, 06:42 PM
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@dominguez1 ,
Why would the vibsensor measure differently if the measurement mic reading is the same?
It's moving the air or it isn't, right, not some sort of independent tactile force?
Perhaps it's giving a reading based on some sort of weighted sum from the frequency response?
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post #1183 of 1408 Old 02-24-2017, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
@dominguez1 ,
Why would the vibsensor measure differently if the measurement mic reading is the same?
It's moving the air or it isn't, right, not some sort of independent tactile force?
Perhaps it's giving a reading based on some sort of weighted sum from the frequency response?
In short, increased levels of Sound Intensity.

Check out the first post of the MBM thread (also linked in my sig) for a more detailed explanation and examples.

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post #1184 of 1408 Old 02-25-2017, 02:26 AM
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Collecting my thoughts on what I got to experience this past weekend...

Really wish I took some damn pictures.


I'll do a rundown:

The Dine-in experience at the Alamo Drafthouse was pretty enjoyable. Was nice to have a burger with a movie. Chuck's @cvinfig place in downtown KC is gorgeous to say the least. Honestly, I didn't get to see your theater as each time I poked my head in all the seats were taken. Or the lights were out and in the middle of a demo. Looked very nice though. The view off that balcony though...whew! Was nice to see Jonathan's @Archaea theater again. Now with the Atmos upgrade. Didn't get much time at your place this time but I was very impressed with the off-axis sound imaging. Good stuff, man. I bet it sounds great at the MLP. @JDontee your RPTV system was excellent! It really was like looking at a huge plasma screen. Well done! I also enjoyed looking at the pictures you showed us of what you did with the basement area. Always interesting to see what people do with the space they have to work with. Same with Kevin's @ChldsPlay I really dug that extra room with the concession stand and equipment rack. The sound was nice and loud and punchy too. Nice. And thanks for the usb sticks with the movie posters. Awesome! I'll put that to use, fo sho. Ryan @chirpie your system always impresses me. It's just a home theater done right. Presentation is second-to-none. Really. Well done. I loved how you put on the show but can still entertain us outside the theater like it's nothing to you. All with a big smile. Will be interesting to see what you do with the new space you'll have in the near future. Thanks again for the shirt! Derek @Stoked21 you're as crazy as I'd hoped you be...and you are. Was nice to get some face time and bust each others balls in person. Your system is pretty sweet but I gotta say, I love love love the whole 'man cave' hang out area you got there. That's just awesome. I'd be down there forever. Thanks for showing me your work with those lit up mini posters you have on the wall. You clearly have a passion for this stuff. Grant @jedimastergrant I was so impressed with the upgrades in your theater. The surround was vastly improved from before and sounded very immersive. There is a lot of love put into your room and you can tell being in there. Just a sweet spot to watch a movie. I still get a kick out of your projector room area. Love that. Btw, I'd like to know how that thing you, Carp and I were talking about on the phone went. Hopefully you got something figured out in your favor. Doug @d_c what can I say? You're a hell of a host and a hell of a pitmaster. Rockin' those Ghorns never gets old. I loved getting to spend more time at your house on Sunday just straight up chilling. Even better was that boat ride out on that lake of yours. I really enjoyed being out there with everybody. Of the whole trip, I took one photo and that was of us all on the boat. I mean, hey...we could have sank. Needed evidence that we were there. Shel @carp your theater always puts a smile on my face and it didn't let me down this trip. I was really bummed I didn't get more time in there though. Odd having a whole weekend there but somehow no time to play the system. I mean, I stayed til Monday and everything. Somehow all the time slipped away. Was a wild weekend. I'll just have to crash there again and make sure next time. Thanks again for having me over the whole weekend. I really appreciate being your guest and I hope I was a good one.

A big extra special thanks to @Archaea for putting so much time and effort into organizing this whole thing and also to his enthusiasm that helps keep this group running. Don't know what we'd do with out you. Keep being your awesome self, Jonathan.

Thanks again to @lilmike for picking me up from the airport and driving about with me all day. Really enjoyed meeting you finally and the talks we had. You're a stand up guy. Really. Hope you enjoyed driving that R/T. I enjoyed being a passenger.

Thanks to every one who helped with this meet. Without all of you we can't have these awesome meets. I hope I didn't forget any hosts. If I did, sorry. Hope to see you all again at future meets.
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post #1185 of 1408 Old 02-25-2017, 04:50 AM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
In short, increased levels of Sound Intensity.

Check out the first post of the MBM thread (also linked in my sig) for a more detailed explanation and examples.
Okay...never seen this stuff before.
So if I have this right....

intensity = pressure x velocity
Pressure is what you hear and measure with a measurement mic.
Intensity creates tactile response.
You can increase intensity at the same SPL with nearfield subs, particularly with lower surface area and greater displacement.

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post #1186 of 1408 Old 02-25-2017, 04:54 AM
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PR - No cost effective tool available that I know (Sound Intensity Meters and Particle Velocity meters are commercially available, but very expensive).
fwiw at least one study of port performance has used a hot wire anenometer to measure particle velocity at the port outlet, seems like you can get one of these for not too much cash.
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post #1187 of 1408 Old 02-25-2017, 09:25 AM
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Okay...never seen this stuff before.
So if I have this right....

intensity = pressure x velocity
Pressure is what you hear and measure with a measurement mic.
Intensity creates tactile response.
You can increase intensity at the same SPL with nearfield subs
^^^Correct. Also, ported subs have shown more TR around tune.

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particularly with lower surface area and greater displacement.
Not sure I understand the last part of this?
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post #1188 of 1408 Old 02-25-2017, 09:42 AM
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^^^Correct. Also, ported subs have shown more TR around tune.



Not sure I understand the last part of this?
I'm not sure if my understanding was correct, but here's what I got out of the paper...

Bass can originate from either large surface areas or or high particle velocities (high excursion or port flow) over a small surface area.
Nearfield, the high velocities give a higher tactile response for a given SPL.
Beyond a certain distance, the velocity and pressure reach an equilibrium, so the particle velocity will be the same for a given SPL.
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post #1189 of 1408 Old 02-25-2017, 10:05 AM
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I'm not sure if my understanding was correct, but here's what I got out of the paper...

Bass can originate from either large surface areas or or high particle velocities (high excursion or port flow) over a small surface area.
Nearfield, the high velocities give a higher tactile response for a given SPL.
Beyond a certain distance, the velocity and pressure reach an equilibrium, so the particle velocity will be the same for a given SPL.
Exactly.

I haven't found too much consistency as to what constitutes the nearfield, but from what I've read it's anywhere between 1/2 a wavelength and 2 wavelengths.

For sub frequencies, this puts a lot of the passband in typical size rooms as the nearfield.

A good example is a outdoor concert compared to an HT room.

Outdoors when you are sitting in the farfield, 110db will sound and feel the same regardless of the outdoor venue. All you need to understand is SPL to predict what it would feel like.

In a room in the nearfield, SPL is not enough to determine what 110db will feel like. A sub an inch away from the couch at 110db will feel very different from a sub placed at the front of the room at the same 110db.
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post #1190 of 1408 Old 02-25-2017, 12:53 PM
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Exactly.

I haven't found too much consistency as to what constitutes the nearfield, but from what I've read it's anywhere between 1/2 a wavelength and 2 wavelengths.

For sub frequencies, this puts a lot of the passband in typical size rooms as the nearfield.

A good example is a outdoor concert compared to an HT room.

Outdoors when you are sitting in the farfield, 110db will sound and feel the same regardless of the outdoor venue. All you need to understand is SPL to predict what it would feel like.

In a room in the nearfield, SPL is not enough to determine what 110db will feel like. A sub an inch away from the couch at 110db will feel very different from a sub placed at the front of the room at the same 110db.
How do the nearfield monitors compare to transducers/actuators? Sadly, I didn't get to compare at the crawl.
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post #1191 of 1408 Old 02-25-2017, 05:14 PM
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What I learned during the crawl.



"@carp killed three attendees in his basement with a John Wick house curve.

A freaking......John Wick.......house curve."



I think a new standard for house curves has been set. I fear that if I don't institute this curve my membership to The Continental will be rescinded!
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post #1192 of 1408 Old 02-25-2017, 07:00 PM
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Doug (d_c) also had a jaw dropping John Wick demo, if anyone hasn't heard that yet. I heard amazing bass content in that I never knew existed.
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post #1193 of 1408 Old 02-25-2017, 07:15 PM
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Doug (d_c) also had a jaw dropping John Wick demo, if anyone hasn't heard that yet. I heard amazing bass content in that I never knew existed.
I forgot that Friday afternoon was the only real demo any of the GTG guys had in my room since the htpc was dead the next morning. Maybe John Wick came for it while I was sleeping.
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post #1194 of 1408 Old 02-25-2017, 07:18 PM
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I forgot that Friday afternoon was the only real demo any of the GTG guys had in my room since the htpc was dead the next morning. Maybe John Wick came for it while I was sleeping.
Bummer!

What was the HDMI problem you guys had with the laptop?
Someone obviously solved it, and I've been wondering how.
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post #1195 of 1408 Old 02-25-2017, 07:34 PM
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Bummer!

What was the HDMI problem you guys had with the laptop?
Someone obviously solved it, and I've been wondering how.
Brad set up the HDMI to the AVR perfectly within the laptop, but some other dumdum had the old HTPC hdmi connected directly to the laptop instead of the AVR being connected to the laptop when the HDMI connections were being swapped. I'm not going to point fingers or call anyone out directly, but his initials are Doug.
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post #1196 of 1408 Old 02-25-2017, 07:39 PM
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Brad set up the HDMI to the AVR perfectly within the laptop, but some other dumdum had the old HTPC hdmi connected directly to the laptop instead of the AVR being connected to the laptop when the HDMI connections were being swapped. I'm not going to point fingers or call anyone out directly, but his initials are Doug.
Now I feel dumb for not thinking of checking the cable.
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post #1197 of 1408 Old 02-26-2017, 04:51 AM
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Doug (d_c) also had a jaw dropping John Wick demo, if anyone hasn't heard that yet. I heard amazing bass content in that I never knew existed.
I don't know if it hurts more missing the demo or the BBQ.........nah its the BBQ. Who am I kidding. I was crushed to have missed it. In fact I didn't make it to any of the other demos besides carps. So that means the local guys need get in gear and start signing up for the monthly movie nights. And who says we can't have more than one for just a bit?
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post #1198 of 1408 Old 02-26-2017, 06:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Kevin’s (childsplay) is still the only theater in the KC area I’ve actually watched a movie in besides my own. I think that’s why Jon still has me on the ‘not that active’ KC movie nights list. ^_^
correct.

Not only that you've only been to one of the other home theaters in the area, but most of the regulars haven't experienced your place either!!! Which is a shame especially since everyone was raving about how well done your theater was on this crawl. I heard one guy say it was best of show candidate.
You'll have to admit, history bares that you surface about every 2 years. (2011 subwoofer meet, 2015 crawl, 2016 G2G in the park, 2017 crawl).
The guys marked active meet up more like...monthly.

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....the local guys need get in gear and start signing up for the monthly movie nights. And who says we can't have more than one for just a bit?
Chirpie, host a movie night for the rest of us KC hobbyists before you move out of your current house, and I'll bargain with you -- you'll get active status. (until you go into hiding again)

All in good fun - Ryan - of course you know I mean no offense. I enjoy your company, I certainty appreciated your assistance/initiative (t-shirt design, badge design, hosting etc) with this meet, and am glad you participate when you can --- just a bit of good-natured ribbing.

Archaea's 9.8.4 Home Theater Room
(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric

Last edited by Archaea; 02-26-2017 at 06:58 AM.
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post #1199 of 1408 Old 02-26-2017, 07:18 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm trying to update the first and second post on the thread to kind of seal it in time for future reference with accurate information. I updated the attendee list in post 1 as best I know. (those who had to cancel, and those additional who added last minute). I haven't messed with post 2 yet.

I was also looking over the systems configs:

Did anyone besides @carp completely change their system in the few months before the crawl? (or change anything at all that isn't represented in post 1?)
@jedimastergrant , I know you changed subwoofers for the meet - were you using two OS LF for the meet?

Here is what Sheldon sent me via e-mail to post in December (I think it was December) Everything in Red font I know changed before the meet. Many of those characteristics changed 100%.

Sheldon - you have the record for the most 'liquid' home theater setup in Kansas City, and there is no second place.

carp
AVR or Pre-Pro - Pioneer Elite vsx-53 from the stone ages.
Speakers - JTR 215 RT's mains, JTR 212 HTR center, Volt 10 LX's for side surrounds, eD cinema 6's for rear surrounds
Speaker Amplifiers - Crown xti 4002 for mains, Yamaha avr with pre outs for center and surrounds
Video Source/Screen - Epson 5040 w/ Elite 158" 2:25:1 AT screen with 4K material whatever that means.
Subwoofers - 9 SI HT 18 sealed subwoofers. 8 subs up front and 1 nearfield for MLP
Subwoofer Amplifiers - Honey Badger cause it doesn't give a sh*t if you beat the hell out of it for 3.5 years in 2 ohms Cerwin Vega CV - 5000 for the front subs, inuke 3000 bridged for the nearfield sub
Accoustic Treatments - Front wall 15 inches thick pink fluffy insulation from floor to ceiling between stacks of subwoofers, absorption GIK panels on ceiling, diffusion panels and more absorption panels in the laundry room next door waiting for either someone to buy them or for their idiot owner to figure out where they should go in the room.
Transducers - 1 Crowson
Lighting and/or Control System - N/A
HTPC Software - Minidsp 88A with Dirac and 88BM
Bluray Player - run of the mill Sony for 90 bucks
Atmos and/or DTS-X - No, that sh*t's overrated and will be here today and gone tomorrow errr… I mean I can't afford it right now
Other - carpet is new and makes me feel giddy inside when I rub my toes on it's plushiness. Chairs in front row are Manhattans from Row One and 2 Costco HT chairs that are really nice for being Costco chairs. 2nd row couch may be the most comfortable napping couch ever. In fact I'm dozing off as I type this.

Archaea's 9.8.4 Home Theater Room
(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric

Last edited by Archaea; 02-26-2017 at 07:22 AM.
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post #1200 of 1408 Old 02-26-2017, 07:22 AM
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@sigma722 . POST THOSE VIDS IN THE CRAWL THREAD!
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Upstairs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_Qd0jtld70

Quick Downstairs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_162zhUczPU

Another downstairs where drywall is a little more present?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoETE8EyCNM

I'm not the best videographer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSMeJrtNOX4

Okay okay! Stop yelling!!! :'(
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