February 2017 - Kansas City Home Theater Crawl - Page 46 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1351 of 1408 Old 03-18-2017, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
I've had a couple people ask me about my playlist and specifically about the Star Spangled Banner clip. It's from a politically charged documentary called Hillary's America, that I rented on DVD from Netflix. I was really impressed with the final song clip in the documentary, and so subsequently bought the retail Bluray disk to cut that clip for the crawl. It is linked here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/65r8a1zlxq...nner.m2ts?dl=0

It occurred to me that the hosts should post their final playlists ---- and volumes used.

This is my playlist and associated volumes from the crawl demo sessions.

I used MakeMKV and TSMuxor and MKVToolNix GUI to make most of my clips off my retail purchased BluRays, and then played the clips through J-River. I just used the Denon remote to change the AVR master volume per clip.

Hillary's America - Star Spangled Banner = -6dB
DTS X - Gravity (Textures and Sound) Trailer - 4dB
Chris Botti in Boston - Katherine McPhee vocal = Reference
Dolby Atmos Amaze Trailer = - 4dB
Dolby Atmos Dolby Unfold Trailer = Reference
Brave - Bear Scene Intro = Reference
Zoolander 2 - Old and Lame = -3dB
Mad Max Fury Road (Atmos) - Movie intro = -3dB
Terminator Genisys (Atmos) - You were never strong enough = -3dB
Gravity (Atmos) - Initial debris encounter = - 3dB
Xbox Scene It Game = - 18dB
Speaking of things not to my preference. JRiver. I know my group specifically saw it crash at multiple stops multiple times. Any comments on why this happened or how to prevent it? My initial thoughts are just avoid it. What does it really offer that Kodi or Plex doesn't? (Minus of course the Savoy which is a unique situation with his processor being a computer).

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post #1352 of 1408 Old 03-18-2017, 08:44 AM - Thread Starter
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I haven't spent much time with Kodi yet. I only since the crawl discovered how to play Atmos or DTS-X through Kodi so that was the original deal breaker for me and why I've used JRiver. I have a like/hate relationship with Jriver. I've personally have had lots of problems with it on and off over the years, but it does throw a unbeatably good picture through MadVR red October high quality and plays absolutely any clip you throw at it. It's a very technical application.

Now that I figured out how to play atmospheric audio through Kodi I'm going to be intentionally becoming more familiar with it.
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post #1353 of 1408 Old 03-18-2017, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
I've had a couple people ask me about my playlist and specifically about the Star Spangled Banner clip. It's from a politically charged documentary called Hillary's America, that I rented on DVD from Netflix. I was really impressed with the final song clip in the documentary, and so subsequently bought the retail Bluray disk to cut that clip for the crawl. It is linked here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/65r8a1zlxq...nner.m2ts?dl=0

It occurred to me that the hosts should post their final playlists ---- and volumes used.

This is my playlist and associated volumes from the crawl demo sessions.

I used MakeMKV and TSMuxor and MKVToolNix GUI to make most of my clips off my retail purchased BluRays, and then played the clips through J-River. I just used the Denon remote to change the AVR master volume per clip.

Hillary's America - Star Spangled Banner = -6dB
DTS X - Gravity (Textures and Sound) Trailer - 4dB
Chris Botti in Boston - Katherine McPhee vocal = Reference
Dolby Atmos Amaze Trailer = - 4dB
Dolby Atmos Dolby Unfold Trailer = Reference
Brave - Bear Scene Intro = Reference
Zoolander 2 - Old and Lame = -3dB
Mad Max Fury Road (Atmos) - Movie intro = -3dB
Terminator Genisys (Atmos) - You were never strong enough = -3dB
Gravity (Atmos) - Initial debris encounter = - 3dB
Xbox Scene It Game = - 18dB



I don't remember all of the volume settings, but I do know that John Wick was the only time I pushed it to reference (my avr says -3 when it's set at reference because of the very efficient mains). I knew ears would be raw, so no need to be blasting reference or above IMO. Here are my clips:


1. Ha, I don't know. It was a song from the show Darryl's House. If you haven't watched this show it's pretty great, different artists come and play with Darryl Hall (from Hall and Oates) and his band in his awesome room for live music. It's on the channel called MTV Live (used to be called Palladia).
I can't even remember the name of the song... sounded pretty great though so I included it. Just used the L and R mains for this one.

2. Disturbed - Sound of Silence Live on Conan from youtube. Wow, what a voice... goosebumps everytime I hear it despite that it is on youtube. Again, just used L and R main speakers.

3. Lucy 4K - from "80%" to "99%" towards the end of the movie.

4. The Shallows - scene when she is surfing with the 2 guys she met. I wanted to do a later scene with the shark, very impactful and intense but I didn't have enough time.

5. Within Temptation - Black Symphony Live concert. Beautiful duet. Only downside is they have the singer on the right on the left side of soundstage and vice versa. My favorite concert disk ever along with Metallica's Through the Never.

6. Metallica - 2nd half of the song And Justice for All from Through the Never. I didn't want to do the typical One demo, although maybe I should have.

7. Sully - intro dream sequence

8. Raising Arizona - opening scene. I wanted to mix it up and not have everything be loud. I've loved this movie ever since I first saw it in middle school. One of those that you repeat lines over and over with friends. I probably should have done the action scene following, "Wake up son. I'll be taking these huggies... and whatever cash you got..."

I never thought I'd like another Cohen brothers movie more - until I saw The Big Lebowski a few times when it came out.

9. John Wick club scene


In hindsight I probably should have had another scene that shows off the bass, but I though many would be bass weary so I only really cranked up JW in the bass department.


With group B I also showed Act of Valor and my all time favorite song, Orion from Through the Never. I think we did a few more clips but I can't remember now what all we did.

Group C got a lot less, I know we didn't do some of the music clips and no John Wick.
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post #1354 of 1408 Old 03-18-2017, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
With group B I also showed Act of Valor and my all time favorite song, Orion from Through the Never. I think we did a few more clips but I can't remember now what all we did.
You also played the Comfortably Numb clip. One of my faves of the day.

I will try and review each theater in the next few days.

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post #1355 of 1408 Old 03-20-2017, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
This is the single thread for everything related to this crawl - and as mentioned earlier this week - it's come time to call out individuals who attended but haven't made the time to provide some feedback. It's been three weeks. No more excuses.

Let's hear what you liked, what you didn't (opportunities to improve?), what was memorable! Post some pictures and video!

I've gone back through the posts since the meet and organized the crawl attendees into four groups. I'd sure be nice to see all 50 attendees fall into one of the first two categories.

@popalock weak, post 1174

I added a bit to my post. I need to give it some more thought for sure though.... Especially now that I know we are being measured.
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post #1356 of 1408 Old 03-20-2017, 12:27 PM
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@Stoked21 : We got there first! Yay! Holy crap man. What a theater, sad to hear that you’ve got to take it all apart, but life happens. Great picture and great sound. Comfy chairs too. Thanks for handling the after-crawl hospitality, those breaded and fried risotto balls were fantastic, the tiramisu was excellent too. Chatting with you, Jeff, Mark, and Doug until the wee hours was a great time, though my liver tells me otherwise. I sincerely appreciate the hospitality (even the wake up call).

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Ftr. At about 5:30 am. I turned on both cap1400 and nf. With the 4000. Turned volume to reference....trims at -9. Played deadroom hit scenes for 5 minutes. ...my neighbors heard it 3 blocks away. They said their windows were "oscillating". Then I went to bed. No alcohol was involved! The next morning they were literally telling me there was another Oklahoma earthquake! That's not a joke.

Guessing no one slept!

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post #1357 of 1408 Old 03-24-2017, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
I used MakeMKV and TSMuxor and MKVToolNix GUI to make most of my clips off my retail purchased BluRays, and then played the clips through J-River. I just used the Denon remote to change the AVR master volume per clip.
Thanks for the list and for providing the Hillary's America clip.

Two JRiver tips:
1. If you wanted to not have to change the Denon volume control, you could have used the Volume Level (R128) tag to enter your desired levels. Then turn on Volume Leveling in the DSP and JRiver would have made the desired volume adjustments automatically.

2. Any List Style showing Details works just like a spreadsheet. You can cut and paste all info into Exel or your post on AVS Forum without having to retype stuff. Here is just used the Snipping Tool to grab a quick view of the playlist.

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post #1358 of 1408 Old 03-24-2017, 11:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
Thanks for the list and for providing the Hillary's America clip.

Two JRiver tips:
1. If you wanted to not have to change the Denon volume control, you could have used the Volume Level (R128) tag to enter your desired levels. Then turn on Volume Leveling in the DSP and JRiver would have made the desired volume adjustments automatically.

2. Any List Style showing Details works just like a spreadsheet. You can cut and paste all info into Exel or your post on AVS Forum without having to retype stuff. Here is just used the Snipping Tool to grab a quick view of the playlist.


Nice tip! I would have used that had I known about it! --- assuming the JRiver volume leveling doesn't enable any kind of dynamic compression or lower SPL boosting like Dolby's Dynamic Volume does? J-River volume leveling only changes master volume?
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post #1359 of 1408 Old 03-24-2017, 11:20 AM
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I went ahead and bought JRiver today. I was using the 30 day trial for the crawl.

I want to make sure it doesn't update automatically, it seems many issues are caused by this. Jonathan, you showed me how to do this but I can't remember and I want to make sure I have that set to not auto update because it's working great right now.
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post #1360 of 1408 Old 03-24-2017, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Nice tip! I would have used that had I known about it! --- assuming the JRiver volume leveling doesn't enable any kind of dynamic compression or lower SPL boosting like Dolby's Dynamic Volume does? J-River volume leveling only changes master volume?
volume levelling is just an overall level adjustment, no compression or anything like that. You do need to have analysed the tracks btw (this should happen by default but just in case)
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post #1361 of 1408 Old 03-24-2017, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
I went ahead and bought JRiver today. I was using the 30 day trial for the crawl.

I want to make sure it doesn't update automatically, it seems many issues are caused by this. Jonathan, you showed me how to do this but I can't remember and I want to make sure I have that set to not auto update because it's working great right now.
Go to Tools > Options and type "update" in the search bar. The search bar is the easiest way to find anything in the settings. I update to the daily beta builds on all my systems. To many issues are caused by not updating.

At the same place you change your update preferences, you can also select the number of downloads to keep. I keep the last 5. Then if there is an issue, I just reinstall the older version from the folder that keeps the installs. This is C:\Users\%username%\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 22\Install

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
volume levelling is just an overall level adjustment, no compression or anything like that. You do need to have analysed the tracks btw (this should happen by default but just in case)
I was showing him how to use manual entries for his test clips. Analyzing the clips will write over the manual entries.
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post #1362 of 1408 Old 04-04-2017, 12:01 PM - Thread Starter
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@beastaudio - relevant to our discussion in posts 1327 and 1336.
I just happened to watch this video for the first time, just yesterday, and thought of our exchange in regards to the boundary gain as it relates to drywall.


Take a listen to Mark Seaton's How to Calibrate your Home Theater video at timestamp 9:46 - 10:32.
basically - 'What's really going on below 100hz - is that the drywall and the 2x4's framing is largely transparent to the sub'


That reinforces why I mentioned I think I get very little gain in my room -- because my front subs are effectively at 1/3 points front to back in my room (because of the storage space behind my baffle wall), and my rear subs are also basically 1/3 point back to front in my room.














Austin originally suggested, when I first started working on this room, that I seal up that area behind the baffle wall - and mount the subwoofer drivers on the screen wall and make a giant infinite baffle space. It just sounded too complicated at the time (and frankly still does). I'm not sure how truly sealed infinite baffle has to be??? There are cutouts in the false/baffle wall for the Mackie speakers, and sealing up all the floor joists in the ceiling, and covering the 2x4 studded false wall with plywood etc.
I'm also not sure how much, SPL gain that would allow (if any ---??? because the subwoofer drivers would be in the same placement?!?!?). Perhaps the only advantage would be less amp power to get the same SPL -- But if that's the only value add - it wouldn't be worth it to me for all the hassle. I've already got the amps - and they were inexpensive.


I think to get the SPL gained via boundary gain, and be able to compete with carp's John Wick presentation in my room - I'd have to take down the current wall and move it back towards the concrete outdoor foundation wall.


That sounds like a lot of work.


I guess at the end of the day - I'm pleased with the subs right now - so I don't have much motivation to tear stuff up again. If I want to see the John Wick club scene in all of it's bass glory, I'll just head to carp's house.

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post #1363 of 1408 Old 04-04-2017, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
@beastaudio - relevant to our discussion in posts 1327 and 1336.
While the FR and subs may view the wall as "invisible," from a total air displacement and PVL, you still get the benefits of a smaller room space from that standpoint. The smaller virtual space should still help you out from a total tactile and pressure standpoint.

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post #1364 of 1408 Old 04-04-2017, 09:22 PM
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@Archaea ,
Don't fix what ain't broke!

Changing that stuff will definitely alter something, and there is nowhere to go but down.
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post #1365 of 1408 Old 04-05-2017, 08:50 AM
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@Archaea ,
Don't fix what ain't broke!

Changing that stuff will definitely alter something, and there is nowhere to go but down.
I dunno man, a well executed SBA setup would likely be a killer prospect, and Jon has the area to accomplish it

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post #1366 of 1408 Old 04-05-2017, 09:56 AM
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@Archaea told ya to do IB with that wall when I was over there 2yrs ago. Or even mount the current sealed subs on the wall as a baffle just for more room.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯



You certainly have more room to change things about than the rest of us.
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post #1367 of 1408 Old 04-05-2017, 03:45 PM
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I dunno man, a well executed SBA setup would likely be a killer prospect, and Jon has the area to accomplish it
Doesn't seem compatible with near-field.
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post #1368 of 1408 Old 04-05-2017, 03:59 PM
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Doesn't seem compatible with near-field.
reason? I dont see how you couldn't make that work any better than what he already has going with a little work on the distance settings which would need to be adjusted. Mikela is having some pretty serious success with his looking at the raw response. Solid room mode negation minus the length mode, just from the simple 1/4 placement mentality.

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post #1369 of 1408 Old 04-05-2017, 06:30 PM
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reason? I dont see how you couldn't make that work any better than what he already has going with a little work on the distance settings which would need to be adjusted. Mikela is having some pretty serious success with his looking at the raw response. Solid room mode negation minus the length mode, just from the simple 1/4 placement mentality.
The placement is critical for SBA or DBA, and the nearfield subs don't conform to that placement.

This stuff is always hard to predict, until you try it, though.
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post #1370 of 1408 Old 04-05-2017, 08:07 PM
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post #1371 of 1408 Old 04-05-2017, 08:22 PM
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Omg wtf is sba and dba? lol
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...s-concept.html
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post #1372 of 1408 Old 04-05-2017, 08:29 PM
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Omg wtf is sba and dba? lol
Summary...

Double Bass Array:
With 4 subs in the front of the room at 1/4 3/4 placement vertically and horizontally, it eliminates all the horizontal and vertical room modes.
By placing 4 subs in the back of the room with the same placement, but reverse the phase and tune the delay and gain, you can eliminate the reflection from the back wall, and the Z axis room modes along with it.

This (in theory) gives a perfect response for all seats in the room! Also, the bass is time aligned with the LCRs for all seats!

Single Bass Array replaces the back four subs with massive amounts of absorption to eliminate the back wall bounce, and accomplish the same thing.

In practice, this assumes that the room is a perfect rectangle with no furniture, carpet, or open doorways. YMMV.
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post #1373 of 1408 Old 04-06-2017, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
@beastaudio - relevant to our discussion in posts 1327 and 1336.
I just happened to watch this video for the first time, just yesterday, and thought of our exchange in regards to the boundary gain as it relates to drywall.


Take a listen to Mark Seaton's How to Calibrate your Home Theater video at timestamp 9:46 - 10:32.
basically - 'What's really going on below 100hz - is that the drywall and the 2x4's framing is largely transparent to the sub'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJXE...utu.be&t=9m46s


That reinforces why I mentioned I think I get very little gain in my room -- because my front subs are effectively at 1/3 points front to back in my room (because of the storage space behind my baffle wall), and my rear subs are also basically 1/3 point back to front in my room.


This ^ must be why I get a better response with my sub stacks in the corners than at the 1/4 points along the front wall. Years ago I tried every place in the room you could imagine - many that would never feasibly work just to experiment.

The left side of the room has drywall and then another room, which is very narrow, probably 7 feet wide.

However the right side of the room is concrete so who knows...

I'm just lucky/glad I get a good response with having subs placed in a very convenient position.
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post #1374 of 1408 Old 04-06-2017, 09:45 AM
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@carp

With subs placed in the two front corners, you've eliminated/reduced all the width bass modes.

With these being a full stack from floor to ceiling, you've eliminated/reduced all the vertical modes.


If you had subs in the back... you could eliminate/reduce all the length modes.


Plus, it probably helps that you measure from the same spot every time? Right?
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post #1375 of 1408 Old 04-06-2017, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
@carp

With subs placed in the two front corners, you've eliminated/reduced all the width bass modes.

With these being a full stack from floor to ceiling, you've eliminated/reduced all the vertical modes.


If you had subs in the back... you could eliminate/reduce all the length modes.


Plus, it probably helps that you measure from the same spot every time? Right?

I measure from the main LP the most, but back when I was experimenting with placement all over the room I measured from all the seats except for that front row seat that is close to the right wall.

Well, I guess I better get some subs for the back then!
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post #1376 of 1408 Old 04-06-2017, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
The placement is critical for SBA or DBA, and the nearfield subs don't conform to that placement.



This stuff is always hard to predict, until you try it, though.


Do you know if anyone has tried to pull this off? I'm considering SBA arrangement with 4 large LLT's with 21's and a deep bass trap in the back, but would really like at least a nearfield sub behind my seat. I'm going back and forth between SBA and something simpler like 4 corner or front and back quarter wall placement that doesn't rely on the bass trap for wave cancellation. The other problem is that the SBA placement would move my L and R speakers partially in front of the subs, which could be an issue. See picture to see what I mean. I'll have the space to move the subs behind the screen to any position the entire width of the room, but it would be nice to know what is generally more effective. Thanks!




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post #1377 of 1408 Old 04-06-2017, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
I measure from the main LP the most, but back when I was experimenting with placement all over the room I measured from all the seats except for that front row seat that is close to the right wall.

Well, I guess I better get some subs for the back then!
I'm delivering the Cap 4000ULF to @rkinmoval and the https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-ded...ter-build.html on Saturday. He may have six SI HT-18 subs for sale soon with a Peavey amp.



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post #1378 of 1408 Old 04-06-2017, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveyK View Post
Do you know if anyone has tried to pull this off? I'm considering SBA arrangement with 4 large LLT's with 21's and a deep bass trap in the back, but would really like at least a nearfield sub behind my seat. I'm going back and forth between SBA and something simpler like 4 corner or front and back quarter wall placement that doesn't rely on the bass trap for wave cancellation. The other problem is that the SBA placement would move my L and R speakers partially in front of the subs, which could be an issue. See picture to see what I mean. I'll have the space to move the subs behind the screen to any position the entire width of the room, but it would be nice to know what is generally more effective. Thanks!
I have 4 subs and experimented with a 2D DBA on the floor. I figured it would be fun to try and should cancel length and width modes, but not height.

It didn't work at all. Later, I figured out that I hadn't done the delay right, so it wasn't really a valid test. So, my test tells us nothing.

Some people in that thread tried it with good results. Keep in mind that the SBA requires a TON of acoustical treatment.

The bad news with SBA, DBA, or any 1/4 3/4 placement scheme is that you get no room gain. In other words, not much output, especially down low. You get the anechoic response from the subs. If you have tons of power and low frequency extension, this is good, but not if you'd benefit from some room gain and more low frequency extension.

I got the best results with 4 corner placement. Lots of room gain. It cancels out most of the room modes, but not all. Good seat to seat consistency, but not perfect. As long as you don't have problems with nulls, you should be able to use EQ to fix the frequency response.

1/4 3/4 placement needs less EQ, but you get also much less output. Try them both, and see what you think. Also, check out the REW room simulator. It's pretty helpful if you have a closed, rectangular room, and it's free.
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post #1379 of 1408 Old 04-07-2017, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by DaveyK View Post
Do you know if anyone has tried to pull this off? I'm considering SBA arrangement with 4 large LLT's with 21's and a deep bass trap in the back, but would really like at least a nearfield sub behind my seat. I'm going back and forth between SBA and something simpler like 4 corner or front and back quarter wall placement that doesn't rely on the bass trap for wave cancellation. The other problem is that the SBA placement would move my L and R speakers partially in front of the subs, which could be an issue. See picture to see what I mean. I'll have the space to move the subs behind the screen to any position the entire width of the room, but it would be nice to know what is generally more effective. Thanks!




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I have my dual opposed subs setup in an SBA array and they do quite well for me this way. If you can see in my pic, they were tucked a little ways away from being perfectly in the 1/4 points but I had to compromise a little since the mains were sandwiched between them. Now that the JBL's are in and the sh50's are just sitting there.I have slid the stacks to the proper placement and yes, you do lose some gain. but the overall response is quite good. I do not have but 4"panels lining the back wall, but there is an additional 4" on the other side of a single sheet of sheetrock that likely also helps a little. Integrating the nearfield took a little work but it wasn't all that hard.

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post #1380 of 1408 Old 04-07-2017, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by DaveyK View Post
Do you know if anyone has tried to pull this off? Thanks!

Yes. Just visited Mike's theater this past weekend. Very impressive.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-ded...l#post32928441


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