April 2018 - Minneapolis Area HT Crawl - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 227 Old 04-25-2018, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Rowan611 View Post
Looks like a really nice setup. Can you tell us more about it?

Typed on a tiny keyboard, excuse any typos
Sure, the equipment list is in my signature. Nothing over the top that will crack the foundation or anything, but I think it's good quality equipment. It can play reference level cleanly down to 10Hz or so. I built the room as part of a new house build in late 2015 and got the room completed in early 2016. I laid out the room in CAD myself to get everything placed just so and then dialed it in using REW. I really wanted the room to sound good for both movies and music, so I tried to balance those needs as much as possible although that's not always possible. Since I'm the only one in my house that watches movies regularly, my goal was to make it sound as good as possible for the MLP only. I use the room 4 or 5 times a week on average. I'm hoping to upgrade the display to an OLED later this year once the 77" LG comes down in price a little bit.

7.2.4 Setup | Display: LG 77" C8 OLED | Blu-ray: Oppo UDP-203 | Processor: Anthem AVM60 | Amps: Outlaw 7700, Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2 | Speakers: Paradigm Prestige (2) 95F's, 55C, (4) 15B's, (4) CI-Elite E65-R (Atmos) | Subs: (2) Rythmik F25's
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post #182 of 227 Old 04-25-2018, 05:39 PM
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Was anyone able to take up @bossdog304 's offer to host a movie on Friday night?

Archaea's 9.8.4 Home Theater Room
(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric
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post #183 of 227 Old 04-25-2018, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Was anyone able to take up @bossdog304 's offer to host a movie on Friday night?
Unfortunately work interfered with the whole weekend and ruined my plans to be a stop for the crawl. I ended up making it to a few places and had a great time. I wasn't complete on the 24's yet, but the build is under way and SP sent tracking on my amp. I also missed a wedding that weekend! @lukeamdman tracking has the amp being delivered on 5/1 if you still wanted to borrow it for awhile.
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post #184 of 227 Old 04-25-2018, 08:03 PM
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Jonathan, I remember that get together well....I recall making a statement to the extent of "running those subwoofers that way is like being married to a Playmate and never seeing her neked!" Of course this tongue in cheek proclamation was in regard to David's preference, at the time anyway, with running his very capable subwoofers in a subdued manner.


I also recall us trying to identify which speaker was playing behind the screen. It was an interesting exercise comparing those two speaker choices even though in my opinion they are for two different applications. The Salks are fantastic sounding speakers and are beautiful! The JTR's not so beautiful but lack nothing in performance in my opinion.


Jonathan your point about preferences in sound is spot on! A hundred years ago when I was in the audio/video business I learned quickly what people's hearing preferences are very subjective. Who am I to try and convince somebody my way is correct? With novice listeners (95% - 99% of consumers) I would take the approach of telling them what to listen for when I was demoing speaker "A" -vs- speaker "B" for them and let them make a somewhat "informed decision". I would have them listen for the depth, height, and width of the sound field. I would have them close their eyes and "visualize" where the vocals were coming from, the drums, the guitar....could they "visualize" the size of the venue. Many eyes were opened, or ears in this case when you would give a novice listener a tad bit of perspective of what to listen for. In my opinion, the space you are listening in has every bit as much an influence, if not more, on the sound reproduction as the actual speakers, equipment, etc. Also, when we are critically listening to these rooms at get together's like last weekend, the rooms are full of 180# to 250# salt water bags scattered around the room which obviously alters the sound as well!


In my opinion, the people reading this thread are in the 1% of audio/video enthusiasts within the general population. We have made the effort to seek out how other people reproduce an audio/video experience in their own home. How many within the general populous would make this effort? I think we can also agree that within the 1% of which we all fall into, there is a wide range of experiences, expectations, and competencies.


Thanks again for everybody opening up their homes for a visit and thank you to those who have taken the time to write comprehensive reviews of what their experience was. It truly is a treat to read!
I am continuing my trend of under utilizing JTR subs. The new S1 that is paired with the Salks in my 2Ch setup hasn't even thought about breaking a sweat. Plenty of sub 1000x over. But it's a sub that's half JTR & half Salk...so I love it.

For the Savoy, I like a normal house curve just like most people...just not as much as some people. Reproduce the soundtrack as it was intended but with a decent bump on the low end. I think it sounds damn good. With the MOTU and the app, I could have bumped it up another 10dB upon request. Will do that on your next visit.
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post #185 of 227 Old 04-25-2018, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by dlbeck View Post
I am continuing my trend of under utilizing JTR subs. The new S1 that is paired with the Salks in my 2Ch setup hasn't even thought about breaking a sweat. Plenty of sub 1000x over. But it's a sub that's half JTR & half Salk...so I love it.

For the Savoy, I like a normal house curve just like most people...just not as much as some people. Reproduce the soundtrack as it was intended but with a decent bump on the low end. I think it sounds damn good. With the MOTU and the app, I could have bumped it up another 10dB upon request. Will do that on your next visit.
You wouldn't need to bump anything up for my tastes! I suspect the KC gang thought my Danleys sounded like a popcorn fart. We did switch the phase of my rear sub as it seemed to be cancelling some of the output of the front subs. We also turned the sub amps up from 6:00 to 9:00. Heard some rattles in the room I had not heard before. It is interesting how minor tweaks can yield large results!

As I have mentioned to you before, I wouldn't change a thing with your room.

I am sure Jim's work on your JTR sub is beautiful and I look forward to seeing it one day.

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post #186 of 227 Old 04-25-2018, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Bluecow003 View Post
Sure, the equipment list is in my signature. Nothing over the top that will crack the foundation or anything, but I think it's good quality equipment. It can play reference level cleanly down to 10Hz or so. I built the room as part of a new house build in late 2015 and got the room completed in early 2016. I laid out the room in CAD myself to get everything placed just so and then dialed it in using REW. I really wanted the room to sound good for both movies and music, so I tried to balance those needs as much as possible although that's not always possible. Since I'm the only one in my house that watches movies regularly, my goal was to make it sound as good as possible for the MLP only. I use the room 4 or 5 times a week on average. I'm hoping to upgrade the display to an OLED later this year once the 77" LG comes down in price a little bit.
I use Tapatalk primarily, and you don't see sigs. No biggie, I'll just get on the iPad tomorrow.

Did you buy CAD or do you have a job that requires it's use? Sounds like a really nice room. Hope to see it sometime.

I'll be designing and building my first HT in a few years.

Typed on a tiny keyboard, excuse any typos

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post #187 of 227 Old 04-25-2018, 09:51 PM
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What an awesome event! Wish I could be there. Agree with everyone about Luke’s MOAS main
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post #188 of 227 Old 04-26-2018, 04:21 AM
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I’m known for giving a frank, honest opinion when asked, and by my own admission – sometimes offering it when not asked --- I could probably use a muzzle on occasion, but those of you who know me probably shouldn’t expect this post to be any different than those I’ve offered in the past. Be assured, my intent isn’t ill – simply that every coin has two sides, and I as a home theater host many times in the past always appreciate honest subjective constructive criticism alongside any compliments/praise. The KC guys are friends enough now that we are pretty perfectly frank with each other – which I like.

So, PLEASE, take my comments in stride -- and weigh any opinion I produce in the balance of heavily favoring your OWN subjective tastes. It is your theater space after all, and I'm just some random internet guest.
I greatly appreciate the feedback that so many of you have given. I know all of us, as enthusiasts, strive for continual improvement in our setups. I know that all of the feedback I’ve received has been welcome to help me expand my knowledge and make good choices going forward.

A great thing about the AVS community are the all the people willing to help people take the next step to improve their systems. A while back, Mike @Rowan611 and Luke @lukeamdman – who I had never met previously, saw on a thread that I was having trouble getting my subs integrated in a way that I’d like. Mike and Luke both offered to visit my home and not only helped me with my subs but a lot of other ideas to improve my system. I’m eternally grateful for the help and greatly enjoy the friendship we share.

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Rich - @zorax2
Potential Improvement Opportunity (in my subjective opinion) - consider lowering the physical height of the projector screen a foot or two. I felt like I was looking “up” at the screen from your seats a bit more than my subjective preference. Don’t be afraid to cut loose the brightness on that fine JVC projector vs. relying solely on what the Spyder tool recommends. If there’s a common theme any more, especially since HDR introduction, it seems projectors are calibrated too dimly for my tastes. Perhaps a reference vs. preference thing though on my behalf..
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Zorax2 - Man, that room is begging for family fun. No wonder your kids are having their buds over all the time and rocking out. I would too! It's dark as heck and cavelike with nothing but great sound, comfy chairs, and an incredible display. They difference between your rs5xx and my rs400 is crazy - I wanted to kick my PJ right in the nutz when I saw the image from yours - it's lucky it was out of range back in KC. I would lower that screen some though - and make it bigger! The KEFs were so comfortable to listen to with the multichannel music. It was definitely my favorite part of your demo. I could listen to music in there all day and wish we had more time to go through some of my favorite tracks.
I have to laugh that both @Archaea and @D C both mentioned my screen being too high ( @Killer also mentioned it privately). The funny thing is that I absolutely cringe when I walk into many newly constructed homes where the TVs are mounted 5 to 6 feet or higher above fireplace mantels. To me, that’s asking for neck strain and uncomfortable viewing.

So, the reason for my high screen – everyone in our family is tall and, more importantly, we nearly always recline slightly to use the footrests on our seats or recline all the way back for all our gaming, TV watching or movies. Those theater chairs are super comfy! When reclining, the viewing angle changes significantly in that higher is better to alleviate any possible neck pain or viewing discomfort. If the screen were lower as most home theaters might have things setup, we’d have to put our chins down to our chest to comfortably watch anything. I asked my wife about the screen height after getting all of your feedback and she confirmed that the height was “perfect” for how we do our watching.

As mentioned, everyone has different likes, preferences, goals and objectives for their rooms. I thought I’d share our logic for the higher screen for consideration for others when they try to settle on a screen height that will work best for them.
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post #189 of 227 Old 04-26-2018, 04:32 AM
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Originally Posted by zorax2 View Post


I greatly appreciate the feedback that so many of you have given.

So, the reason for my high screen – everyone in our family is tall and, more importantly, we nearly always recline slightly to use the footrests on our seats or recline all the way back for all our gaming, TV watching or movies. Those theater chairs are super comfy! When reclining, the viewing angle changes significantly in that higher is better to alleviate any possible neck pain or viewing discomfort. If the screen were lower as most home theaters might have things setup, we’d have to put our chins down to our chest to comfortably watch anything. I asked my wife about the screen height after getting all of your feedback and she confirmed that the height was “perfect” for how we do our watching.

As mentioned, everyone has different likes, preferences, goals and objectives for their rooms. I thought I’d share our logic for the higher screen for consideration for others when they try to settle on a screen height that will work best for them.
Sound logic right there! Enjoy your space. Absolutely beautiful home by the way!

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post #190 of 227 Old 04-26-2018, 05:58 AM
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That makes perfect sense Rich. I used the “equation” for screen height for my screen and hated it / just didn’t make sense. I couldn’t pull my knees up and I think even the tips of my toes were in the way when I was completely reclined. I raised it 6” and we are much happier, but I think another 6” would be better but I’m out of room up top. I don’t usually recline all the way back though because id spill my beer, so it works out ok
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post #191 of 227 Old 04-26-2018, 07:01 AM
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Interesting timing as I just had a few of you visit my place this past weekend. My wife sent me a message today from her Facebook timeline.....3 years ago today I started the construction on my theater.
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post #192 of 227 Old 04-26-2018, 07:48 AM
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-Zorax2

Yeah ultimately if we're happy with what we have that's the main thing.

To add to what Jonathon (Archaea) is saying, you really can't have too much brightness for HDR. I left the iris stopped down slightly in your case to allow you to open it up as the lamp ages and help the black floor. It certainly isn't set in stone and I just eyeballed it very quickly. I keep the iris slightly closed in my setup simply because I hope it will allow me to get more mileage out of the bulb. I would tend to fixate on the picture getting dimmer over time, so being able to open the iris should help that. At least that's the plan. Bulb costs aren't the end of the world so find what you like and go for it. I have to say that I thought the fluorescent lights in the bank scene in Spidey seemed plenty bright with a lot of pop. It helps that you have a smaller screen too.

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post #193 of 227 Old 04-26-2018, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by jeahrens View Post
-Zorax2

Yeah ultimately if we're happy with what we have that's the main thing.

To add to what Jonathon (Archaea) is saying, you really can't have too much brightness for HDR. I left the iris stopped down slightly in your case to allow you to open it up as the lamp ages and help the black floor. It certainly isn't set in stone and I just eyeballed it very quickly. I keep the iris slightly closed in my setup simply because I hope it will allow me to get more mileage out of the bulb. I would tend to fixate on the picture getting dimmer over time, so being able to open the iris should help that. At least that's the plan. Bulb costs aren't the end of the world so find what you like and go for it. I have to say that I thought the fluorescent lights in the bank scene in Spidey seemed plenty bright with a lot of pop. It helps that you have a smaller screen too.
I really appreciate the tweak you made. I was already happy with the image but you helped me take it to a whole new level!

I've probably read thousands of posts on the JVC and other HDR projectors but really didn't realize I should crank up the iris for the best picture with HDR considering I have a relatively small (compared to many on AVS) 100" diagonal 16:9 screen with only a short 10'6" throw distance. What stuck with me was always reading "Keep the iris cranked down for greater contrast." I have now seen the light (literally)!

When I have time, I'm going to re-run the JVC calibration as all of my calibration runs were for low lamp. I think Killer mentioned running a 100% white pattern and setting it so that its is about 31 foot lamberts for HDR so I'll give that a try once I get a light meter.

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post #194 of 227 Old 04-26-2018, 05:41 PM - Thread Starter
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I had quite a few folks about about the crossover points between the ported 21s and the othorns:




The ported 21s are contributing up to around 60hz, while the Othorns are helping as low as 25hz.



In case anyone was wondering why I despise the front row for bass:

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post #195 of 227 Old 04-27-2018, 07:25 AM
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What's the science around the front row null then? Wavelengths? Cancellation?

Learn me, please.
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post #196 of 227 Old 04-27-2018, 07:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JCJetta View Post
What's the science around the front row null then? Wavelengths? Cancellation?

Learn me, please.
It's the reflection from the back wall. If you put my room dimensions into the room simulator in REW it predicts this perfectly.

I've thought about building some boxes for passive cancellation, but they'd quickly compress with the amount of firepower in the room.

Something @carp discovered on Saturday evening, after we put the sofas back on the back row, is that in the center right behind that front couch is a sweet spot. It still has the stereo image of the front row but not the full bass null.



Tonight I'll post some sweeps from that spot, but I think I'm going to create a EQ curve just for that single seat. The surround sound is also quite good from that spot.

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post #197 of 227 Old 04-27-2018, 07:57 AM
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It's the reflection from the back wall. If you put my room dimensions into the room simulator in REW it predicts this perfectly.

I've thought about building some boxes for passive cancellation, but they'd quickly compress with the amount of firepower in the room.

Something @carp discovered on Saturday evening, after we put the sofas back on the back row, is that in the center right behind that front couch is a sweet spot. It still has the stereo image of the front row but not the full bass null.




Tonight I'll post some sweeps from that spot, but I think I'm going to create a EQ curve just for that single seat. The surround sound is also quite good from that spot.
Watch me be totally wrong when you measure from there. If I remember right my head was around 2 feet or so behind the back of the front row couch.
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post #198 of 227 Old 04-27-2018, 09:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Watch me be totally wrong when you measure from there. If I remember right my head was around 2 feet or so behind the back of the front row couch.
I did get a sweep yesterday and it was a huge improvement from the front row. I'll try and post it tonight.

If I move the front row forward the null gets better...maybe I just found an excuse to add some near-field
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post #199 of 227 Old 04-27-2018, 09:51 AM
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Wow. That is a very impressive null. So wide.


As for moving seats forward, you could always move the door more towards the front of the room as well. Right? Then your riser and door won't interfere.

I turn the sharpness on my TV all the way up, because that's how I like my picture... real sharp.


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post #200 of 227 Old 04-27-2018, 11:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow. That is a very impressive null. So wide.


As for moving seats forward, you could always move the door more towards the front of the room as well. Right? Then your riser and door won't interfere.
Originally I was planning to have the seating and subs reversed, but because that left wall is a supporting wall I didn't want to mess with moving the door.

On the positive side, it was nice having much shorter speaker/HDMI/USB cable runs by having the TV/subs so much closer to the amp rack.

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post #201 of 227 Old 04-27-2018, 11:35 AM
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...What a fantastic finish on the speakers and subs!!! Such that I’m looking into trying that with my Epique CBT24 line array speaker system that I’ve been dragging my feet on. What router bit did you use to make that work?

Maybe this is more rambling info than what you were looking for, but here goes...

I used 2 trim routers to make it work. One router had a flush trim bit, the other had a bevel bit. (I think 7 degree bevel?) After the router, I used a file to just lightly knock down any sharpness on the laminate edge. You could definitely cut yourself on that laminate if you're not careful.


First I measured and cut all the laminate with a box cutter and straight edge so all pieces were roughly 1-2" too big.


Then I set up a straight-edge jig and used the flush trim bit to get one straight cut on all pieces that would be lined up with the baffle. I had to do this cut first (before putting it in place) since I used a round-over on the baffles.


Next, I used contact cement to adhere the laminate. I used 3-4" wide parchment paper strips between the laminate and box while I was lining up the laminate. (So I could get the laminate straight with the back edge of the baffle) Then once I had it lined up, I pulled one piece of parchment out and pressed where the parchment was removed. Then the piece was stuck and you can pull out the rest of the parchment strips. If you won't have a roundover on the baffle and have the laminate go all the way to the front edge - then it won't be as big a deal to get the piece lined up straight. Just know that once the contact cement touches, that piece is going to stay right where it is.


So once I had a laminate piece adhered, I used the router with the flush trim bit to cut it to size. I did all 5 sides (everything other than the baffle) - so I started with the bottom, then back, then sides, then top - just to hide the seams as much as I could. Why the bottoms, you ask? Practice.


I used the router with the bevel bit on all the edges after the flush trim bit. You'll want to keep this bit in a separate router because the depth of this bit is everything. Too shallow and you won't cut anything, too deep and you'll end up cutting into the piece the bearing is running along. This bit is needed because the flush trim bit leaves just a slight overhang... You wouldn't be able to measure it without a calipers, but you can feel it. Then use the file to knock the sharpness off.


In thinking back, I remember I put down some masking tape over the laminate wherever the router base was sliding. The laminate dust would scratch the laminate face if you dragged the router base over it. So by using tape, the router base never actually touched the laminate.


Then I used a gloss black paint pen to color any seams or edges that were visible.


Hopefully this all makes sense. If not, just ask.
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I turn the sharpness on my TV all the way up, because that's how I like my picture... real sharp.


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post #202 of 227 Old 04-27-2018, 11:50 AM
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One thing is for certain; once I get my new subs in and dialed, I'm adding "Oz the Great and Powerful" to my queue for a rewatch.
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post #203 of 227 Old 04-27-2018, 03:08 PM
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One thing is for certain; once I get my new subs in and dialed, I'm adding "Oz the Great and Powerful" to my queue for a rewatch.
That movie is riddled with high quality bass.

Typed on a tiny keyboard, excuse any typos

HT: Oppo UHD-203 | Crown Amps | NX3000D | NX6000D | 1299s | Volt 8s | THTs | Crowson Shadow 8s | BOSS riser | Panamax 5300PM | LG OLED 65B6P
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post #204 of 227 Old 06-09-2018, 12:03 PM
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I'll be hosting a movie night in Chaska between June 12 and June 23 on a Tuesday, Friday or Saturday starting at roughly 7 p.m. Please send me a PM with your email address if you are interested in attending and I'll send you details. I'll try to pick a date as soon as I hear back from people regarding availability.

If you'd just like to stop by at 7 p.m. on the chosen evening and visit with fellow home theater enthusiasts or demo anything and can't stay for the movie - no problem - just stop by to have fun!

7.2.4 with Denon X4300W, ATI 2005 & 1807 Amps, Kef Reference 203 Mains, 202c Ctr, 201 Surr, Ci200RR-THX Top Rears, Q300 Frt Hts, E301 Rear Surr, Power Sound Audio PSA dual S3600i Subs,
GIK & DIY Acoustics, JVC X790/RS540 Projector, Stewart Neve 100" Screen, Panasonic Blu-Ray DMP-UB900, Xbox One X, Crowson Transducers, INSTEON, UDI ISY994i, Amazon Echo
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post #205 of 227 Old 06-10-2018, 01:28 PM
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I'll will host a movie night, this Tuesday 6/12. If interested, please PM me for details.

7.2.4 with Denon X4300W, ATI 2005 & 1807 Amps, Kef Reference 203 Mains, 202c Ctr, 201 Surr, Ci200RR-THX Top Rears, Q300 Frt Hts, E301 Rear Surr, Power Sound Audio PSA dual S3600i Subs,
GIK & DIY Acoustics, JVC X790/RS540 Projector, Stewart Neve 100" Screen, Panasonic Blu-Ray DMP-UB900, Xbox One X, Crowson Transducers, INSTEON, UDI ISY994i, Amazon Echo
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post #206 of 227 Old 06-13-2018, 05:23 AM
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I'll will host a movie night, this Tuesday 6/12. If interested, please PM me for details.
Thanks for hosting last night, Rich. You have a great theater - picture, sound, feel... its all there.


And its always fun talking shop with like-minded folks.


Thanks again.

I turn the sharpness on my TV all the way up, because that's how I like my picture... real sharp.


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post #207 of 227 Old 06-13-2018, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
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I'll will host a movie night, this Tuesday 6/12. If interested, please PM me for details.
Thanks for hosting, Rich!

The thought the lower light levels in the room + additional acoustic treatments made some real nice improvements.
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post #208 of 227 Old 06-13-2018, 11:42 AM
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I'll will host a movie night, this Tuesday 6/12. If interested, please PM me for details.

Rich, thanks for hosting last night. I had a great time! It was fun to have you share your enjoyment of the room you've built.

7.2.4 Setup | Display: LG 77" C8 OLED | Blu-ray: Oppo UDP-203 | Processor: Anthem AVM60 | Amps: Outlaw 7700, Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2 | Speakers: Paradigm Prestige (2) 95F's, 55C, (4) 15B's, (4) CI-Elite E65-R (Atmos) | Subs: (2) Rythmik F25's
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post #209 of 227 Old 06-13-2018, 11:56 AM
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Thank you all for coming last night. I had a great time and loved the UHD release of Saving Private Ryan.


It was fun talking AV before and after the movie. I hope we can have some more movie nights this summer!

7.2.4 with Denon X4300W, ATI 2005 & 1807 Amps, Kef Reference 203 Mains, 202c Ctr, 201 Surr, Ci200RR-THX Top Rears, Q300 Frt Hts, E301 Rear Surr, Power Sound Audio PSA dual S3600i Subs,
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post #210 of 227 Old 07-02-2018, 12:46 PM
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@BRAD S

What kind of theater seats did you have? @NWCgrad is looking at seating options and I told him I liked yours as one consideration.

@dlbeck has some nice comfy chairs too! What are yours David?
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Archaea's 9.8.4 Home Theater Room
(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric
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