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post #781 of 1851 Old 12-18-2018, 04:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
Group FYI:



pennynike1 and I had recently been informed of a limitation in some Atmos titles and have now personally tested that not all Atmos tracks are enabled with Atmos objects to enable all your avail speakers.



Disney currently is the culprit with some titles in a pre-baked 7.1.4.







***On the back of the Moive Slip Covers***



If you see:



"Dolby Atmos 7.1.4" it is a pre-backed track and you will not get anything greater than 7.1.4



If you see:



"Dolby Atmos (Dolby TrueHD 7.1 compatible)" then it should be the real Atmos with objects enabled 9.1.6 or greater.


Did you happen to see this post from Roger Dressler in the Emotiva RMC-1 thread?

The *Official* Emotiva RMC-1 owners thread
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sha...2&share_type=t

I think he is saying the height channels can be expanded by the processor, but let me know your thoughts.

Mark


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post #782 of 1851 Old 12-18-2018, 05:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by giomania View Post
Did you happen to see this post from Roger Dressler in the Emotiva RMC-1 thread?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
In our evaluation of so-called "7.1.4" Atmos titles, they are not going to interact with an AV processor the same as do traditional 5.1 and 7.1 soundtracks. In purely channel-based formats, the decoder is informed of every channel assigned in the bitstream (even if it does not carry audio as in some 3.0 mixes carried in 5.1 tracks).

In the case of these Atmos "pre-rendered" tracks, there's still a 7.1 bed and 4 objects, and the AVR remains able to activate as many height (and base layer) speakers as exist in the system. The only difference is that the "pre-rendererd" soundtrack (assuming the rendering targeted the 4 height corners) will not use the middle height speakers. The AVR will continue to display them as enabled, however.

It is worded in a way that is slightly confusing, but he is actually confirming the finding.

The first statement is just how legacy bitstream formats work, like DTS-MA and Dolby TrueHD.

In the second statement he should have used a different word: "In the case of these Atmos "pre-rendered" tracks, there's still a 7.1 bed and 4 objects" would be less confusing if he said **In the case of these Atmos "pre-rendered" tracks, there's still a 7.1 bed and 4 height)



AKA see my post he liked a few above his post in the RMC-1 Thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
Please don’t use the channel output status screen of an Atmos container to determine if all the channels are going to work.

They will always light up. But unless there is Atmos objects in that container it will not use all the channels.
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post #783 of 1851 Old 12-18-2018, 05:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

*Make sure you are doing the upgrades for you and not others!

*Funds - Remember this is a hobby
Wise words right there.

I think this is often overlooked in this forum. Too often we get caught up in trying to be the best or to keep up with the neighbors. The problem is that if this were a drag race most of us would have a Hellcat compared to the average Joe's Pinto, but all we see is that the Hellcat is the standard.
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post #784 of 1851 Old 12-18-2018, 05:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lmidgitd View Post
Wise words right there.

I think this is often overlooked in this forum. Too often we get caught up in trying to be the best or to keep up with the neighbors. The problem is that if this were a drag race most of us would have a Hellcat compared to the average Joe's Pinto, but all we see is that the Hellcat is the standard.
I think it might be good advise for all of us. I tend to update my system in chunks as I can afford the upgrades. Our relatively new group just happened to catch me and my system after about 10 years of upgrades.

Part of the excitement is seeing the improvements to each persons theaters as they progress from milestone to milestone as well! So if you do it all at once, there maybe less reason to go back and see the changes!


One example of good milestone improvements

Milestone 1: (Getting the base setup)
TV and Speakers

Milestone 2: (Upgrading to Surround Sound)
TV and 7.1

Milestone 3: (Upgrading to a Projector from a TV)
1080P Projector and 7.1

Milestone 4: (Upgrading to UHD and a 2160P capable Projector)
2160P Projector and 7.1

Milestone 5: (Upgrading to multiple subs for room response and or SPL gains)
2160P Projector and 7.1 (with multiple subs now)

Milestone 6: (Upgrading to immersive audio formats)
2160P Projector and 7.1.4 (Atmos & DTS:X)

Milestone 7: (ETC.....)


And you could do a GTG for each one of the milestones and maybe even get suggestions from the other members. (Hint, Hint Scott.... )


But even with all that said, go into each project with a goal in mind, and if you get to a point where you are completely satisfied.

Lets say:

1080P Projector and 7.1, dont feel pressured to buy things to impress the rest of us. This is not all about the hardware. Truly the best part for me is the company and talking to others that share a similar passion.
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post #785 of 1851 Old 12-18-2018, 06:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Also a big thank you to Alex (pennynike1) for allow me to work with the RMC-1 and find out if the Atmos 7.1.4 debacle was real. (Unfortunately it is)
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post #786 of 1851 Old 12-18-2018, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
It is worded in a way that is slightly confusing, but he is actually confirming the finding.



The first statement is just how legacy bitstream formats work, like DTS-MA and Dolby TrueHD.



In the second statement he should have used a different word: "In the case of these Atmos "pre-rendered" tracks, there's still a 7.1 bed and 4 objects" would be less confusing if he said **In the case of these Atmos "pre-rendered" tracks, there's still a 7.1 bed and 4 height)







AKA see my post he liked a few above his post in the RMC-1 Thread.


Definitely confusing; thanks for the clarification.

I’m still rocking my Denon 4311 using Audyssey DSX Wides & Heights, and will wait for another year or two until all the Dolby Atmos and DTS-X shenanigans settle down.

I can dream...can’t I?


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post #787 of 1851 Old 12-18-2018, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
I think it might be good advise for all of us. I tend to update my system in chunks as I can afford the upgrades. Our relatively new group just happened to catch me and my system after about 10 years of upgrades.

Part of the excitement is seeing the improvements to each persons theaters as they progress from milestone to milestone as well! So if you do it all at once, there maybe less reason to go back and see the changes!


One example of good milestone improvements

Milestone 1: (Getting the base setup)
TV and Speakers

Milestone 2: (Upgrading to Surround Sound)
TV and 7.1

Milestone 3: (Upgrading to a Projector from a TV)
1080P Projector and 7.1

Milestone 4: (Upgrading to UHD and a 2160P capable Projector)
2160P Projector and 7.1

Milestone 5: (Upgrading to multiple subs for room response and or SPL gains)
2160P Projector and 7.1 (with multiple subs now)

Milestone 6: (Upgrading to immersive audio formats)
2160P Projector and 7.1.4 (Atmos & DTS:X)

Milestone 7: (ETC.....)


And you could do a GTG for each one of the milestones and maybe even get suggestions from the other members. (Hint, Hint Scott.... )


But even with all that said, go into each project with a goal in mind, and if you get to a point where you are completely satisfied.

Lets say:

1080P Projector and 7.1, dont feel pressured to buy things to impress the rest of us. This is not all about the hardware. Truly the best part for me is the company and talking to others that share a similar passion.
Good stuff.
I started my HT about 10 years ago after moving into a new house in 2017.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-wh...gned-room.html

I was lucking that I could plan the room before putting in gear.
However, now I would have done many things differently including even more effort on room and conveniences (such as rack access).
I always look forward to hearing about your updates and thought process.

And Happy Holidays everyone.

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post #788 of 1851 Old 12-18-2018, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
Group FYI:

pennynike1 and I had recently been informed of a limitation in some Atmos titles and have now personally tested that not all Atmos tracks are enabled with Atmos objects to enable all your avail speakers.

Disney currently is the culprit with some titles in a pre-baked 7.1.4.



***On the back of the Moive Slip Covers***

If you see:

"Dolby Atmos 7.1.4" it is a pre-backed track and you will not get anything greater than 7.1.4

If you see:

"Dolby Atmos (Dolby TrueHD 7.1 compatible)" then it should be the real Atmos with objects enabled 9.1.6 or greater.
I wanted to add my own experience with this... these are my notes from a post I made about 2 weeks ago. I agree with the "If you see 7.1.4 you will not get anything more than 7.1.4", but I'm not sure you will get 9.1.6 with an "Atmos" title. I was able to get 7.1.6 working with my limited testing, but not 9.1.6 using the wides with the RMC.

How I tested:
I found tracks of each movie that I knew had sound being sent to the overhead speakers when testing the middle overhead channels and side surrounds when testing the front wides.

SOURCE MATERIAL
Movie 1) Dolby Atmos-TrueHD and DTSMA 5.1 (tested using both)
Movie 2) Dolby Atmos 7.1.4
Movie 3) DTS-HDMA 7.1

FRONT WIDES
To get the quick answer out of the way. I was never able to get any of the three movies to play anything out of the front wides. The Dolby tracks will not let an upmixer work and DTS upmixer I believe is limited to 11 channels.
Movie 1) No sound when using the Dolby Atmos setting. Tested for fun, no audio when selecting the DTS5.1 track and using the DTS Neural:X setting
Movie 2) No sound
Movie 3) No sound

For that reason I have now split my side surround output to fed both my first and second row side surround speakers. I've also turned off the front wide output within the speaker Preset 1 setting


OVERHEAD MIDDLE
Movie 1) It works. The RMC does take a Dolby Atmos soundtrack and simulates a middle overhead channel. Please see youtube video below. I ONLY have the middle overhead channel plugged into an amp in that video.
Movie 2) No sound
Movie 3) No sound with DTS Neural:X

Here is the video of the overhead middle channel working with an "Dolby Atmos-TrueHD" soundtrack. Most of the video is silent until you get some really good overhead sounds. I was prepared to do the same wit the wides, but I was never able to get sound to be output. I plan on testing more once the DSP clock issue is resolved.

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post #789 of 1851 Old 12-18-2018, 07:04 AM
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That's a lot of great advise with upgrades and improvements. Even though our group isn't that old, I've even noticed the "smaller" upgrades have a pretty big impact on the overall theater experience. Something as simple as @SOWK Philips Hue lights keeping everyone on track or @pennynike1 second row riser. It's just cool seeing the upgrades.

I think I mentioned it to everyone who attended my GTG, but I figure everyone has to start from somewhere and the next GTG we host can only get better. By the way, my beautiful wife surprised me with with an early Christmas present. A 130" wide 16x9 Seymour XD screen! So we are moving in the right direction! lol
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post #790 of 1851 Old 12-18-2018, 07:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Deewan... I believe it was your post that started me down the rabbit hole. DAMN YOU!!!! Ignorance is bliss sometimes.

As for the wides not working, try other scenes in the movie.
Wides are used less that the heights in most movies as the sound engineers tend to focus the objects in those area's more.



feistyacorn... Sounds like a milestone GTG/Movie night is in order.
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post #791 of 1851 Old 12-18-2018, 07:48 AM
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Deewan... I believe it was your post that started me down the rabbit hole. DAMN YOU!!!! Ignorance is bliss sometimes.
You. Are. Welcome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
As for the wides not working, try other scenes in the movie.
Wides are used less that the heights in most movies as the sound engineers tend to focus the objects in those area's more.
I watched about 5 minutes of the first race scene from the Player One race scene and never heard anything from the wides. I plan on doing more testing but not until the next firmware update and the RMC is stable. All the audio dropouts, buzzing and system freezes makes it difficult to test right now.
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post #792 of 1851 Old 12-18-2018, 08:42 AM
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Why didn't Emotiva adopt a broad based beta testing program (likely Oppo used to do) to help fix problems before launch.
I saw their exhibit at AXPONA. Impressive. But function is critical for processors not just form.

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post #793 of 1851 Old 12-18-2018, 08:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Why didn't Emotiva adopt a broad based beta testing program (likely Oppo used to do) to help fix problems before launch.
I saw their exhibit at AXPONA. Impressive. But function is critical for processors not just form.
If you are willing at some point, I would love to stop by and work with your Tone Mapping options on your Lumagen. I read it is the only solution better than the one in the Panasonic UHD 820 player.
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post #794 of 1851 Old 12-18-2018, 09:07 AM
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If you are willing at some point, I would love to stop by and work with your Tone Mapping options on your Lumagen. I read it is the only solution better than the one in the Panasonic UHD 820 player.
Let's talk in 2019.
I still haven't had a full (any) calibration done.
Many FW updates still coming and hard to schedule for a Lumagen savvy calibrator.

Mike

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post #795 of 1851 Old 12-18-2018, 09:11 AM - Thread Starter
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That's even better. Then I wont feel bad touching any settings after a full calibration had been done!

Desertdome will be in the area in April that you might want to schedule. I hear Chad B is fantastic as well, but dont know if he works with the Auto Calibration of the Lumagen.
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post #796 of 1851 Old 12-18-2018, 09:12 AM
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Let's talk in 2019.
I still haven't had a full (any) calibration done.
Many FW updates still coming and hard to schedule for a Lumagen savvy calibrator.

Mike
Please sign me up if that happens as well. Tone mapping is a constant struggle with hdr, and would love to see the lumagen handles 4k content.
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post #797 of 1851 Old 12-18-2018, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
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Let's talk in 2019.
I still haven't had a full (any) calibration done.
Many FW updates still coming and hard to schedule for a Lumagen savvy calibrator.

Mike
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
That's even better. Then I wont feel bad touching any settings after a full calibration had been done!

Desertdome will be in the area in April that you might want to schedule. I hear Chad B is fantastic as well, but dont know if he works with the Auto Calibration of the Lumagen.
Quote:
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Please sign me up if that happens as well. Tone mapping is a constant struggle with hdr, and would love to see the lumagen handles 4k content.
Great.
Will try to coordinate.
I heard Chad B doesn't use Lumagen. Does Desertdome?
I have used Craig Rounds (in Chicago) in the past (since 2009) but it is hard to coordinate both our schedules (I travel a lot).

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post #798 of 1851 Old 12-18-2018, 09:18 AM
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Why didn't Emotiva adopt a broad based beta testing program (likely Oppo used to do) to help fix problems before launch.
I saw their exhibit at AXPONA. Impressive. But function is critical for processors not just form.
I'm not sure how many, if any beta testers were used by Emotiva with this product release. With the XMC they completed in-house testing and then sent the XMC out for a small group beta testing before releasing for sale. This time I saw no posts from "beta" testers. Lonnie did post they while testing they didn't see any of the issues we are experiencing. I'm not sure what to make of that statement because I've only seen one owner state he is not having issues. Myself and two other owns I know can't watch any Dolby Atmos, DTS X movie or feed it a PCM signal of any kind without getting audio dropouts or a buzzing sound which then freezing the RMC unit requiring a full reboot. Doesn't matter if I send a signal from my Oppo, a cheap LG UHD player, AppleTV or my movie streamer.... all result in some serious audio issues.

However, if they are able to get the DSP clock issue resolved (and it sounds like they will have it resolved this week) then the remaining issues are really minor and in my opinion do not really impact performance.
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post #799 of 1851 Old 12-18-2018, 09:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Great.
Will try to coordinate.
I heard Chad B doesn't use Lumagen. Does Desertdome?
I have used Craig Rounds (in Chicago) in the past (since 2009) but it is hard to coordinate both our schedules (I travel a lot).
@desertdome most certainly does. He is in town at least one a year for Axpona over the last few years.
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post #800 of 1851 Old 12-18-2018, 09:57 AM
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Did you happen to see this post from Roger Dressler in the Emotiva RMC-1 thread?
I think he is saying the height channels can be expanded by the processor, but let me know your thoughts.
Mark
Well, I did not mean they could be expanded. Just that they are still objects and not channels in the traditional sense.

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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
It is worded in a way that is slightly confusing, but he is actually confirming the finding.

In the second statement he should have used a different word: "In the case of these Atmos "pre-rendered" tracks, there's still a 7.1 bed and 4 objects" would be less confusing if he said **In the case of these Atmos "pre-rendered" tracks, there's still a 7.1 bed and 4 height)
...and 4 height what? In the very next sentence I wrote: "The only difference is that the "pre-rendererd" soundtrack (assuming the rendering targeted the 4 height corners) will not use the middle height speakers" which attempted to clarified that these 4 objects are no longer free to move about the cabin, but are in the 4 height corners with their seatbelts fastened.

The key point being they are not actually being converted to channels as may be implied in the 7.1.4 nomenclature. Rather, they are objects masquerading as channels. The distinction being that the AVR has no idea that these Disney soundtracks are any different than other Atmos soundtracks when it comes to illuminating the available speakers in the display. Yes indeed, I was in agreement with your earlier post to that effect.

While we're all here clarifying confusion, one more point if I may:
Quote:
Originally Posted by deewan View Post
I wanted to add my own experience with this... these are my notes from a post I made about 2 weeks ago.

SOURCE MATERIAL
Movie 1) Dolby Atmos-TrueHD and DTSMA 5.1 (tested using both)
Movie 2) Dolby Atmos 7.1.4
Movie 3) DTS-HDMA 7.1

OVERHEAD MIDDLE
Movie 1) It works. The RMC does take a Dolby Atmos soundtrack and simulates a middle overhead channel.
I would not call this simulation. I'd save that term for upmixers. When an Atmos renderer utilizes the middle overhead speakers, it is simply rendering to the middle overhead speakers. The object's coordinates expressed that intention, and the renderer was able to comply as there were speakers available.

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post #801 of 1851 Old 12-18-2018, 10:03 AM
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Why didn't Emotiva adopt a broad based beta testing program (likely Oppo used to do) to help fix problems before launch.
I saw their exhibit at AXPONA. Impressive. But function is critical for processors not just form.
Current owners of the rmc-1 are the beta testers

I actually tried to call Emotiva with a suggestion for pc connection firmware update yesterday 2x, but was unable to reach a person.
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post #802 of 1851 Old 12-18-2018, 10:06 AM
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@desertdome most certainly does. He is in town at least one a year for Axpona over the last few years.
Thanks.
In planning terms for meet ups, AXPONA is not that far away
http://www.axpona.com/landing9.asp
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Maybe we can switch to DM/email to plan some more about 1) my calibration, and 2) WI group meetup at AXPONA.
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post #803 of 1851 Old 12-18-2018, 10:13 AM - Thread Starter
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current owners of the rmc-1 are the beta testers

i actually tried to call emotiva with a suggestion for pc connection firmware update yesterday 2x, but was unable to reach a person.
bingo!

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post #804 of 1851 Old 12-18-2018, 10:18 AM
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Great.
Will try to coordinate.
I heard Chad B doesn't use Lumagen. Does Desertdome?
I have used Craig Rounds (in Chicago) in the past (since 2009) but it is hard to coordinate both our schedules (I travel a lot).
Ken Whitcomb, @D6500Ken , often makes trips for calibrations through the Chicago area and isn't that far in Indianapolis. He is very familiar with the Lumagen and I believe is a dealer as well.
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post #805 of 1851 Old 12-18-2018, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
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@Roger Dressler

No offense was meant. Your knowledge in audio is well known.

I think when some users see the word "object" and Atmos they assume it will move and work.
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post #806 of 1851 Old 12-18-2018, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Ken Whitcomb, @D6500Ken , often makes trips for calibrations through the Chicago area and isn't that far in Indianapolis. He is very familiar with the Lumagen and I believe is a dealer as well.
Mark -

Thanks for the suggestion.
I have certainly heard of him.
Great posts today with lots of options for me.

Mike

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post #807 of 1851 Old 12-18-2018, 10:41 AM - Thread Starter
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As for Axpona, pennynike1 and I will be down there already for at least Friday and Saturday.
Pennynike1 is planning to meet up with some old friends and I will be there to meet them for the first time.

Friday Night Jeff of JTR is planning a "JTR Ultimate Demo extravaganza" 9 X JTR 215RT's in one massive room and LFE routed to each of the 9 JTR 215RT's

We can meet up for that and other plans are being made for Saturday Night (TBD) - *could be two options to choose from*
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post #808 of 1851 Old 12-18-2018, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
As for Axpona, pennynike1 and I will be down there already for at least Friday and Saturday.
Pennynike1 is planning to meet up with some old friends and I will be there to meet them for the first time.

Friday Night Jeff of JTR is planning a "JTR Ultimate Demo extravaganza" 9 X JTR 215RT's in one massive room and LFE routed to each of the 9 JTR 215RT's

We can meet up for that and other plans are being made for Saturday Night (TBD)
Are you staying at hotel or driving back and forth?
A neighbor of mine (into turntables, DACs, 2 channel) might go with me.

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post #809 of 1851 Old 12-18-2018, 10:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Are you staying at hotel or driving back and forth?
A neighbor of mine (into turntables, DACs, 2 channel) might go with me.
minimum of a hotel is the current plan.

But nothing has been fully decided yet. I'm letting pennynike1 take the reigns on this one, as it is his long time friends that are coming in.

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post #810 of 1851 Old 12-18-2018, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
As for Axpona, pennynike1 and I will be down there already for at least Friday and Saturday.
Pennynike1 is planning to meet up with some old friends and I will be there to meet them for the first time.

Friday Night Jeff of JTR is planning a "JTR Ultimate Demo extravaganza" 9 X JTR 215RT's in one massive room and LFE routed to each of the 9 JTR 215RT's

We can meet up for that and other plans are being made for Saturday Night (TBD) - *could be two options to choose from*
I just received my Storm Audio ISP 3D.20 Elite and one for a customer. Mine will be used at AXPONA in April for the audio processing. I've suggested to Jeff that I could also bring my five 215RM's as height speakers.



Yes, I calibrate with Lumagen processors and I am a Lumagen dealer. My new demo theater will have a Lumagen Radiance Pro. Last year at AXPONA we showed a lot of UHD Blu-ray content. I used Lightspace CMS Pro to find the maximum color gamut of the Sony 5000ES. I then created a 3D LUT that mapped the Lumagen's SDR2020 output to the color gamut of the 5000ES for maximum accuracy. This allowed me to keep the projector in a single mode and have the Lumagen switch LUTs depending on whether the content was HDR or SDR.
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