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post #5431 of 7512 Old 05-23-2016, 08:48 AM
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I waiting a JVC 4K projector. The JVC RS400/RS500 aren't native 4K. They are great projectors for the price and the black levels are still better than any other brand, though not though not as great as the RS49, 59 and 69 in my opinion (trade off for the higher lumen output). But as of right now and for the past 2 generations of JVC projectors, JVC can only accept a 4K signal and present a quasi-4K picture with the use of e-shift. It looks great, but it is NOT 4K.

What I am hoping for is that at CEDIA 2016 JVC does their usual projector release. I'm really hoping they have figured out a native 4K with some sort of e-shift, which will give users a quasi-8K(?) picture. JVC will say the projector will ship in December, but it won't because they never make that deadline. The first batch of projectors will have a firmware installed with a few bugs, most likely hdmi syncing, again it always happens. JVC employees will be on holiday so a firmware update will be delayed until around the beginning of Feb. But then, and only then, will I place my order while I make sure my projector was built with the newer firmware. A JVC with native 4K, possibly some sort of e-shift and HDR? Daaaaang son! It doesn't get any better than that.
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post #5432 of 7512 Old 05-23-2016, 09:20 AM
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After seeing the latest e-shift in action, I'm not completely convinced they need a native 4K panel. It is really close. But if they offered one, I sure wouldn't complain
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post #5433 of 7512 Old 05-23-2016, 12:56 PM
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The JVC e-shift is an amazing system. When I've paired e-shift with the Oppo and Darbee, the picture is amazing. But it's all processed video. 1920 x 1080 video processed up to 4K, feed to a panel that can receive a 4K signal and then calculate what the shifted (missing) pixels would likely display. But it's a guessing game.

Now on the flip side there is something to be said for taking a signal with a native 3840 x 2160 resolution and viewing it on a native 3840 x 2160 panel. No guessing. The system knows exactly what should be where and when. If that system just happens to want to guess at shifted (missing) pixels for a quasi-8K pictures, I'm okay with that! That's a feature I can turn on or off if I do or don't want video processing.

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post #5434 of 7512 Old 05-23-2016, 01:10 PM
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Well the RS400 and RS500 wouldn't be guessing what to put in the shifted pixel with a 4K source. I'm not arguing a native 4K panel wouldn't be great, but from seeing the test pattern pics in the Display Devices forums and having seen Dave's projector I just don't feel like it is a necessity anymore. It's really very close. I wouldn't hesitate to buy any of the current JVC's and would pick them over the native 4K Sony's. Not that the Sony's aren't fantastic (they really are), but the JVC makes up for it's slight lack of resolution in other areas to make a better overall picture IMO.

But in your case, since you're planning on waiting anyway why not see what they come up with. At worst they'll make updates to the current models and drop the price some. At best you get what you're hoping for. Which should be that much better.

I'm still happy enough with the RS46 that it will be the last piece of the chain to get replaced.

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post #5435 of 7512 Old 05-23-2016, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by jeahrens View Post
Well the RS400 and RS500 wouldn't be guessing what to put in the shifted pixel with a 4K source.
I'm not entirely sure about that. While the JVC can accept a 4K signal, I believe is downscales it to 1080p, then uses e-shift to up convert. The quote below is taken from the JVC Tech Description for the current projectors.

Quote:
This enhanced 3840x2160 frame is then separated into two new 1920x1080 sub-frames, which are then alternately projected to the screen at 120Hz. The e-Shift device shifts the two unique sub-frames ½ pixel diagonally from each and the result is an image that has 3840x2160 (4K) precision.
I could be wrong, but I believe the RS400 and RS500 still 'guesses' at what the extra/shifted pixels are because it needs to create two "new" 1920x1080 sub-frames which can't be displayed at the same time. Even if the projector knows what the shifted pixel needs to be, it can't light both the native pixel and the shifted pixel at the same time.

Now, 10 feet from the screen can I tell a difference between my JVC e-shift 4K and native 4K (when it comes out)? Only time will tell. But I knew back when I purchased my RS4910 I wasn't going into 4K half-a$$ed. I wanted the best projector in my price range at that time, so I bought the 4910. My RS4910 has an amazing e-shift system that gets me close enough to quasi-4K that I am in no rush for true 4K. My black levels are the best I've seen and my projector has been rock solid. But by next spring when I can have true 4K from media to screen, THAT will take my money.

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post #5436 of 7512 Old 05-23-2016, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deewan View Post
I'm not entirely sure about that. While the JVC can accept a 4K signal, I believe is downscales it to 1080p, then uses e-shift to up convert. The quote below is taken from the JVC Tech Description for the current projectors.
That's not quite right, Darren. The new JVC's are indeed accepting a native UHD input signal, but they are not down-scaling to 1080p. It does have to create two 1920x1080 sub-pixel images, but that's not the same as just throwing away the resolution.

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Originally Posted by deewan View Post
I could be wrong, but I believe the RS400 and RS500 still 'guesses' at what the extra/shifted pixels are because it needs to create two "new" 1920x1080 sub-frames which can't be displayed at the same time. Even if the projector knows what the shifted pixel needs to be, it can't light both the native pixel and the shifted pixel at the same time.
With a UHD source, it isn't so much that there's a "shifted" and "native" pixel. The image processor takes the original frame and makes two pixel-shifted images - sub-frames - and they're displayed alternately. It's not "guessing" as much as complex image-processing.

On several occasions, I've seen people say "faux-K" and similar such negative comments, and whenever I ask if they've actually seen it, they always fall silent. The bottom line is it works damn well, is extremely cost-effective, and looks excellent. I saw them at CEDIA and I was blown away. If I had the choice between a $5000 JVC with eShift3 and a native Sony machine at twice the price, I'll take the JVC and take the family on a tropical vacation with the money I saved. Seriously, it looks that good. But, don't take my word for it...

Chris Seymour has talked quite a bit about how excellent these machines looked on his screens at CES. I asked for more detail, and while they apparently won't fully resolve UHD test patterns, luckily we don't watch test patterns. Apparently they do an excellent job of displaying actual UHD source material, including small single-pixel details in the UHD source.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deewan View Post
Now, 10 feet from the screen can I tell a difference between my JVC e-shift 4K and native 4K (when it comes out)? Only time will tell. But I knew back when I purchased my RS4910 I wasn't going into 4K half-a$$ed. I wanted the best projector in my price range at that time, so I bought the 4910. My RS4910 has an amazing e-shift system that gets me close enough to quasi-4K that I am in no rush for true 4K. My black levels are the best I've seen and my projector has been rock solid. But by next spring when I can have true 4K from media to screen, THAT will take my money.
The 4910 is an excellent projector, and if I were you, I wouldn't be in any rush whatsoever to replace it, either. In fact, I'd probably hang on to it for at lest a couple more years.

But, if you haven't seen one of the new machines with a UHD source, definitely check it out. It's really impressive.

Unless you just have money to burn, I think you'll probably feel like I do that it just isn't worth the money, at least for the foreseeable future. It honestly works so damn well, I'm not sure JVC even needs to make a native UHD chip. Even TI is using a similar technique to take DLP into the UHD realm for the resi market.

Cheers,
SC

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post #5437 of 7512 Old 05-24-2016, 06:45 AM
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Thanks for the clarification on some of my assumptions ecrabb. Perhaps what's being perceived over some of my terms is causing you some heart burn. Guessing is how I describe complex image processing. Yes, I realize it isn't an actual guess by the machine. But I also realize that it isn't correct 100% of the time because it's being processed. Which is why I call is quasi-4K. Owning the RS4910 allows me to see quasi-4K with an upscaled 4K source from my Oppo 103D. Have I seen the RS500? Yes, many times in a store and installed. I agree it looks amazing. But I've also seen two separate models of the Sony 4K projectors. All other features and qualities aside, the sharpness of the native 4K is real to me. Again, from 10, 15, or 20 feet away can I tell the difference? I'm going to say doubtful but I'd have to have both systems in the same room at the same time to answer that question. But I know I've seen differences when at closer range and that will always be in my head that there is a difference.

I've spent a lot of time with my JVC with e-shift to know what it's doing to the pixels to create a quasi-4K image. Especially when I'm looking at font and making adjustments on my JVC. With e-shift off and at close ranges I can see individual pixels and what I call jagged edges of curves. Which is a product of having square pixels, it can't be avoided. Click on the link below to see what I mean. Look closely at the curve of the letter "O" in the word "Original". Image on the left has e-shift turned off. Image on the right has it turned on. The e-shift image looks smoother and better even at close range, but there is still what I consider distortion from the e-shift process. It's a fuzzy edge instead of a finer rough edge.
http://projectiondream.com/wp-conten...ift-off-on.jpg

How smooth does that edge look when using a pixel have the size and native 4K content? Quite a bit better. How does native 4K compare to e-shift? Again, I haven't seen them side-by-side but from memory of the two different Sony models with defined (smaller jagged) edges from 4K to the fuzzy edges of e-shift, I prefer native 4K. Until JVC releases a native 4K we won't know anything more. If my dreams come true and JVC has native 4K with e-shift giving a quasi-8K image? Not sure I could ask for much more.

As we all know this hobby begins as a search for the perfect setup, then gradually becomes the never ending discovery of the weakest link. I'm happy with my JVC RS4910. It does a fantastic job. e-shift works great. But with all other things in my theater to the performance level I want them to be and the fact I have a savings account set aside for only AV gear upgrades that when paired with the sale of my 4910 (unless Joel actually buys it for $1) would pay for a new 4K projector... Yea, I kind of have throw away money for something I currently feel is my weakest link. Again, if JVC doesn't come out with native 4K, I'm not looking to go into 4K just to go into 4K. It's JVC image quality and black levels or nothing for my upgrade.

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post #5438 of 7512 Old 05-24-2016, 07:52 AM
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Well I certainly didn't see anything fuzzy with the RS500. From what I recall of seeing the demo of Kimball's Sony and the pics in the display forum comparing the Sony, JVC and the Epson it's really close. But it's your money and your preference. I see a lot of folks picking the JVC though. And that's where I would go if I was in the market. But you have the advantage of being able to wait. Your current projector is awesome and you can certainly afford to wait until the market can give you what you want.

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post #5439 of 7512 Old 05-24-2016, 10:58 AM
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Joel, the link to the picture in my previous post is a screen capture from the current JVC RS500. I feel the fuzziness seen on the e-shift image would be improved with native 4K.

Perhaps this 'upgrade' is similar to when I'm picking components for a speaker design. I pick the best components I can find based on detailed computer measurements. The measurable differences captured by the computer may or may not be audible to my human ears. But if I know there is a better component and it does not break the bank, I'm going to use it. Same with the e-shift vs native 4K.

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post #5440 of 7512 Old 05-24-2016, 11:46 AM
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I guess I just see the e-shift image as smoother, not fuzzier. I see more distortion from the camera than the e-shift (the color fringing is in both images, the smoothness just makes it stand out more). Again, your money, your decision. And it's not a bad one at all. I just hope JVC makes what you want in time.

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post #5441 of 7512 Old 05-25-2016, 08:29 AM
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The reason I'm no longer in the "faux-K" taunting crowd is that the new 4th generation eshift clearly displays single-pixel information on 4K sources. No matter how it gets it, it doesn't much matter. One wouldn't call a CRT beam projector a single pixel, as it rasters the image you'd instead classify it under how much information it was able to resolve onto the screen, no matter if it uses one pixel, 2M or 8M. As an owner of the new Sony 665 - "native" 4K - the new generation JVCs do some aspects of UHD on-screen resolution better. They have better ANSI and - I think when hot-rodded via Wolf/Lumagen or expertly calibrated - have an overall better image quality. (BTW, it's rare on AVS for a Sony owner to be arguing for the JVC and vice versa. Is that "Iowa nice?") There's occasionally some better 4K stuff on my Sony, and I needed its automated lens shifting to move around on three different screens, and at the end of the day the fact Sony "took very good care of me" because we've displayed with them sealed the deal.

The 3rd gen eshift looked fuzzy and I wasn't a fan, hence my canoodling with Sony. Both are LCD-type technologies and generally still have a softer look, which I'm ok with since I like film instead of spreadsheets. The 4th gen is fantastic, but if you're really after perfectly-sharp UHD projection, you'll need to wait for the new 4K DLP to be available. Which, btw, uses 4M pixels instead of 8M, but again - who cares? If they used one mirror and simply scanned it fast enough for the eye, would that be ok if the result was identical to 8M?

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post #5442 of 7512 Old 05-25-2016, 10:55 AM
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Thanks for the input Chris! Always good to hear from someone that has spent time with both.

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post #5443 of 7512 Old 05-25-2016, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deewan View Post
I've spent a lot of time with my JVC with e-shift to know what it's doing to the pixels to create a quasi-4K image. Especially when I'm looking at font and making adjustments on my JVC. With e-shift off and at close ranges I can see individual pixels and what I call jagged edges of curves. Which is a product of having square pixels, it can't be avoided. Click on the link below to see what I mean. Look closely at the curve of the letter "O" in the word "Original". Image on the left has e-shift turned off. Image on the right has it turned on. The e-shift image looks smoother and better even at close range, but there is still what I consider distortion from the e-shift process. It's a fuzzy edge instead of a finer rough edge.
http://projectiondream.com/wp-conten...ift-off-on.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by chriscmore View Post
The 3rd gen eshift looked fuzzy and I wasn't a fan, hence my canoodling with Sony. Both are LCD-type technologies and generally still have a softer look, which I'm ok with since I like film instead of spreadsheets.
I think the contrast (excuse the pun) in Darren's, Chris', Joel's and my posts, taken together, sort of inadvertently get to a pretty key issue in this discussion. Displays are all getting very good now, with overall pretty subtle differences. Yeah, some are brighter, others have better black levels, some have primaries that are better, but the displays we choose usually end up coming down more to what we can afford and our personal preferences, much like how we choose speakers. One person's sharp is another's "harsh"; one person's "soft" is another person's "film-like".

When I got into this hobby more than ten years ago, CRT was still king of the hill in most aspects of image quality. While some people were watching 720p DLP displays with hard-edged pixels clearly visible from the main viewing position, I was watching a smooth film-like image. Even back then, some people still preferred the digital over the CRT. When the RS45 came along, I was finally ready to go digital, though it's worth mentioning that I could see pixels from my seat occasionally, so that was indeed a slight negative. I should have bought an RS55.

Anyway, I'm in the camp that I don't *want* a projector that's too sharp. Life isn't made of pixels, so I don't want to see them on my display because they look artificial. Not everybody feels the same, though and I totally understand.

I just know from the demos I've seen, the new JVC's are beautiful, and I'll almost certainly have one in the theater I'm designing now, and I don't feel like I'll be sacrificing any image quality at all over more expensive options.

Cheers,
SC

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post #5444 of 7512 Old 05-28-2016, 04:25 AM
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I'm pretty happy with my RS46. From a functional perspective, 4K/HDR isn't appealing at the moment. The things that would interest an upgrade for me would be some form of solid state lighting and fanless/silent operation. If it looks like JVC isn't going to be doing that in the next couple of years then I'll be very inclined to go with competing technologies.

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post #5445 of 7512 Old 05-30-2016, 09:37 AM
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Fairly informative presentation from NAB on UHD: http://ultrahdforum.org/wp-content/u...ster-Class.pdf
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post #5446 of 7512 Old 06-03-2016, 01:06 PM
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Mini Blu Ray review time.

A friend and I recently watched the Roger Waters The Wall Blu Ray. Sound is top notch and the video work is outstanding (oddly for a concert it is presented in scope). Roger does have bits where he gets on his political soapbox, but it's not overbearing (for a change) and works pretty well. The Wall as an album has always had issues for me, but this is a really good presentation of it. If your a fan of concerts and like The Wall this one is worth a visit. Note: if you are a Floyd fan you will likely miss Gilmour's guitar work here. Mr. Kilminster does a technically great job of filling in, but his hard rock gritty tone definitely stands out vs. Gilmour's clean soulful Blues work. Particularly in Comfortably Numb.

The other film we recently visited was "The Judge" with Robert Downey Jr. and Robert DuVall. It does fall into some of the cliche'd Hollywood traps here and there, but overall it was a very good character piece. With both Roberts doing a fine job.

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post #5447 of 7512 Old 06-03-2016, 03:25 PM
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Latest surprise watch for us was "Triple 9".

Good robbery/betrayal flick with some pretty graphic violence but really good acting.

I like the group of actors they used as they are all actors I think do well to break out of the "So and so playing..." type of actor. (Matthew McConaughey comes to mind...it is always MM playing a role vs the actor becoming the role.)

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post #5448 of 7512 Old 06-04-2016, 07:38 PM
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avs member just relocated from KC to IA. Anything scheduled for this summer?

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post #5449 of 7512 Old 06-06-2016, 01:52 PM
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avs member just relocated from KC to IA. Anything scheduled for this summer?
Welcome aboard. Looks like you have a nice setup! I don't think there is much going on over the summer. There have been rumblings about a small crawl in Eastern IA this fall, and a larger one next spring. We just did a DM area crawl recently. But keep an eye out. Sometimes movie nights will come up and if there is a particular theater you want to visit, most of us can find time for a demo and a chat about HT.

How do you like the Martin Logans? I've always enjoyed planar speakers.

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post #5450 of 7512 Old 06-06-2016, 08:29 PM
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Just dropping by to say Hi to all my fellow Iowans

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post #5451 of 7512 Old 06-07-2016, 06:34 AM
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Hey guys, welcome! As Joel said, doesn't appear to be much officially going on at the moment. The weather has been far too spectacular recently.

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post #5452 of 7512 Old 06-07-2016, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Death Dream View Post
Just dropping by to say Hi to all my fellow Iowans
Checked out your build thread. Looks good! Another user on here, JoshP14, is also finishing up a build around a Sony HW40ES. Maybe when you guys are done we'll have a reason for a mini crawl

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post #5453 of 7512 Old 06-07-2016, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeahrens View Post
Checked out your build thread. Looks good! Another user on here, JoshP14, is also finishing up a build around a Sony HW40ES. Maybe when you guys are done we'll have a reason for a mini crawl
sounds good!

My build thread: The Unprofessional Build
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post #5454 of 7512 Old 06-08-2016, 06:18 AM
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Exciting times, my house is finally on the market. That just means I'm shopping for a new house, I mean theater room. It's funny though, now that I'm selling my realtor had a professional photographer, so here is the best pic I've probably every had of my theater. Unfortunately it doesn't show my equipment rack/shelf/built into the wall thing but that's ok. Thought I'd share with everyone my first theater. I'm looking to upgrade pretty substantially for the next one.
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post #5455 of 7512 Old 06-08-2016, 09:06 AM
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Congrats Slarity! We can't wait for the new theater room to help you spend mon.. err give helpful advice

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post #5456 of 7512 Old 06-08-2016, 12:06 PM
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Congrats man. Looking forward to seeing your next adventure.

I keep confusing my intentions with my abilities.
The Blank Slate Cinema/MacGillvray Pub Build Thread
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post #5457 of 7512 Old 06-18-2016, 07:12 AM
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Some of you may already be aware of this but for those like me, I had no idea ATSC 3.0 was coming.

http://www.cnet.com/news/atsc-3-0-wh...st-television/
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post #5458 of 7512 Old 06-19-2016, 03:29 PM
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So here it is... my new house. The basement is unfinished which means an easy way for me to implement 7.2.4 Atmos!!! Just curious if any of you had any input on where to put the theater room. Due to the egress window and actually wanting a 5th bedroom down there it makes things a little awkward but still feasible. The ceilings are 8ft unfinished which is much better than I have now. I'm going to draft up a 3d model of my initial thoughts here. What do you guys think?

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post #5459 of 7512 Old 06-20-2016, 06:39 AM
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Slarity,

Congrats on the new house. I agree your initial plan looks feasible and should be a really nice layout imo. Is all of the white space around the furnace intended for storage? I'm curious about the furnace position. Do you have any flexibility in its location before construction? Looking forward to your build thread. Good luck.

Audio: Marantz AV7702mkII / Marantz MM8077 / Emotiva UPA-7 for 7.2.4 Atmos/DTS:X
Video: Sony VPL-VW600ES & SI Black Diamond 133" 2.35:1 CIH for 4K UHD
Sources: Oppo BDP-103D, Mede8er 600d with Synology ds716 NAS (28tb), PS4, DirecTV
7. Paradigm Studio 20 v5 (L, R, FW), CC-590 v5 (C), Sonance VP63 (SS); 2. DIYSG DA HO 18" (4); PSA S3000i (3); 4! Infinity Entra One (FH), Sonance VP65R (TR)
Lewis Family Cinema 2.0, Lewis Family Cinema 1.0
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post #5460 of 7512 Old 06-20-2016, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjlewie View Post
Slarity,

Congrats on the new house. I agree your initial plan looks feasible and should be a really nice layout imo. Is all of the white space around the furnace intended for storage? I'm curious about the furnace position. Do you have any flexibility in its location before construction? Looking forward to your build thread. Good luck.
Thank you! We move July 24-27. I'm honestly not sure. I am sure that I cannot move the sump pump in the corner there. There is a big drain over by the sump as well. The white area is just unused space/storage. I'm not even 100% sure where I can place the bathroom at this time. It almost looked like a stub in was behind the furnace. So once I get into the house my plans may change anyways. I was just using this as a rough guide to show how it could be laid out. Due to the egress window, my theater will have to be at the bottom of the stairs, which isn't ideal but whatever.
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