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post #7801 of 7813 Old 05-15-2020, 11:58 AM
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I'd think summing the appropriate front and surround would be a decent solution. Since the channel's placement in the sound field is between them. The discrete channel doesn't exist so you have to derive it from something. Wouldn't make much sense to make the level for that channel non adjustable.

Right, but apparently there are other solutions like:
1. Place sounds that are only common frequencies between front and surround.
2. Only frequencies in a certain range.

I think DSX/Nerual:X does something like above.
On the level: Roger Dressler (I think) said that the summing should subtract 3db from each source to keep it in line with the summed partners.

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post #7802 of 7813 Old 05-16-2020, 01:39 PM
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Hey there my old Iowa AVS meet friends! Long time, no talk! First time I've logged into AVS in a long while! Hello from sunny Utah!

An old friend of mine in the Des Moines area just called and his house was struck by lightning during a storm Thursday afternoon. On the outside, it hit a roof peak, did some damage there, damaged some gutter and fascia on the way down, and blew some stone off the side of the house from around the gas line entry on the side of the house. Inside, it took out several TVs, a Tivo, some Rokus, his kid's graphics card on his gaming PC, a garage door opener, and in his home theater, at the very least his Sony HW40ES. He hasn't been able to check the AVR or sources yet.

Long story short, he needs a projector. He set his budget upper-limit at about $3000. He runs a scope screen and would love to eliminate the "get up from the couch to adjust the lens" dance. So, I recommended either an Epson 5050 or possibly a used JVC (or a last-gen b-stock JVC if AV Science has any).

I checked the classifieds and he's going to call AV Science Monday, but I'd thought I'd just check with the old gang here and see if anybody was getting the upgrade bug to go to one of the new JVC machines and was perhaps ready to sell his old one.

I hope you're all surviving the pandemic and getting back to some semblance of normal life.

Regards,
SC

I'm a Home Theater Enthusiast with GAS: Gadget Acquisition Syndrome.
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post #7803 of 7813 Old 05-16-2020, 02:55 PM
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Hey, I'll sell him my old JVC RS45 for $2999 and then I will buy something newer. LOL. Man, this thing has been a work horse, but the resale value is so low on something so old anymore.

So sadly, I don't any useful leads for you.

Welcome back to the Iowa group though, even if it is just for a visit. I am here pretty much every day, but just reading what others are chattin' about.
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post #7804 of 7813 Old 05-16-2020, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ecrabb View Post
Hey there my old Iowa AVS meet friends! Long time, no talk! First time I've logged into AVS in a long while! Hello from sunny Utah!

An old friend of mine in the Des Moines area just called and his house was struck by lightning during a storm Thursday afternoon. On the outside, it hit a roof peak, did some damage there, damaged some gutter and fascia on the way down, and blew some stone off the side of the house from around the gas line entry on the side of the house. Inside, it took out several TVs, a Tivo, some Rokus, his kid's graphics card on his gaming PC, a garage door opener, and in his home theater, at the very least his Sony HW40ES. He hasn't been able to check the AVR or sources yet.

Long story short, he needs a projector. He set his budget upper-limit at about $3000. He runs a scope screen and would love to eliminate the "get up from the couch to adjust the lens" dance. So, I recommended either an Epson 5050 or possibly a used JVC (or a last-gen b-stock JVC if AV Science has any).

I checked the classifieds and he's going to call AV Science Monday, but I'd thought I'd just check with the old gang here and see if anybody was getting the upgrade bug to go to one of the new JVC machines and was perhaps ready to sell his old one.

I hope you're all surviving the pandemic and getting back to some semblance of normal life.

Regards,
SC
That sucks that his lost so much gear. I know someone selling a brand new Sony 45Es projector for $1900. Or Epson 4050 with mount and extra bulb for $2200. Both new and in sealed boxes. I could also check with a neighbor who has a JVC 790 who has been thinking of upgrading.
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post #7805 of 7813 Old 05-17-2020, 01:56 PM
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Hi everybody. Looking to build my own acoustic treatment, and I thought I'd check here if anybody has some 2'x4'x2" OC703/705 or rockboard 60/80 that they want to sell. I have looked at ATS Acoustics and GIK Acoustics. The prices after shipping is within the ballpark of each other. The building supply stores require you to buy a pallets worth, which is way more than the 10 panels that I need. If there are some local options (Cedar Rapids), let me know. Thanks.

Erick
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post #7806 of 7813 Old 05-18-2020, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by pilsnick View Post
Hi everybody. Looking to build my own acoustic treatment, and I thought I'd check here if anybody has some 2'x4'x2" OC703/705 or rockboard 60/80 that they want to sell. I have looked at ATS Acoustics and GIK Acoustics. The prices after shipping is within the ballpark of each other. The building supply stores require you to buy a pallets worth, which is way more than the 10 panels that I need. If there are some local options (Cedar Rapids), let me know. Thanks.

Erick

Im using OC703, which I did buy a couple of pallets of. Seems to work pretty well for me (maybe not totally optimal, not a pro here).
It certainly help tame the massive reflections around my room.

I found a place that was great to work with and shipping wasn't bad at all.
So if you find someone to split with I can share the vendor. (I honestly don't remember and purchased a year and a half ago.)
At this time I really don't have spare enough to cover your needs tho.

Theater: 2x JTR 215 RT's, 1x 215 RM, 10x JTR S8's, 2x UXL-18 GSG Full Martys, Onkyo NR3002, D-Sonic 7 Channel, 3x Inuke 6000DSPs, Oppo-203, HTPC, Roku Ultra, Harmony Elite, JVC NX-7
Second System: Philharmonitors AA, UXL-18 Mini-Marty, Denon X1300, Sony X700 UHD Player, Harmony, Vizio P65-E (This setup to be upgraded this year)
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post #7807 of 7813 Old 05-18-2020, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by pilsnick View Post
Hi everybody. Looking to build my own acoustic treatment, and I thought I'd check here if anybody has some 2'x4'x2" OC703/705 or rockboard 60/80 that they want to sell. I have looked at ATS Acoustics and GIK Acoustics. The prices after shipping is within the ballpark of each other. The building supply stores require you to buy a pallets worth, which is way more than the 10 panels that I need. If there are some local options (Cedar Rapids), let me know. Thanks.

Erick
I've used ATS Acoustics twice and know quite a few that have used them as well, all with great success. Shipping is what gets you in any of those scenarios.

I know one Iowan that many years ago had to buy a large quantity to get OC703 when online options were pretty much non existent. He did a couple of plain wall panels, but then cut the rest into triangles and did super chunk bass traps up front. I think he still had some left over though.

Are you going plain absorption panels, or looking for something more "custom" looking?

DIY Custom-Printed Movie Poster Acoustic Panels - cheap!

Also keep in mind that absorption with broadband panels is a great first step into taming the acoustics in your room, but don't be too discouraged by the potential complexity of some diffusion too.
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post #7808 of 7813 Old 05-18-2020, 07:41 PM
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I've used ATS Acoustics twice and know quite a few that have used them as well, all with great success. Shipping is what gets you in any of those scenarios.

I know one Iowan that many years ago had to buy a large quantity to get OC703 when online options were pretty much non existent. He did a couple of plain wall panels, but then cut the rest into triangles and did super chunk bass traps up front. I think he still had some left over though.

Are you going plain absorption panels, or looking for something more "custom" looking?

DIY Custom-Printed Movie Poster Acoustic Panels - cheap!

Also keep in mind that absorption with broadband panels is a great first step into taming the acoustics in your room, but don't be too discouraged by the potential complexity of some diffusion too.
Appreciate the link. I have thought of putting family pictures over acoustic panels in my living room to help with room reflections. Ever since I installed hardwood flooring, I noticed how much sound travels around the house.

My theater (11' x 16' x 7.8') is on the narrower side (11' wide) so I've been looking for ways to make the panels so they don't stick out too much from the side walls. I've been reading up on frameless acoustic panels. I found a discussion on gearslutz where someone used Roman PRO-543 on the edges to stiffen them and then wrapped fabric like GOM around it; using 3M adhesive spray to hold the fabric to the panel. I've also been looking at different diffusion options. Also on gearslutz, I saw a suggesting on copying a BAD example. I was thinking of blowing up a picture of a BAD, overlaying it 4 layers of 2' x 4' x 1/4" MDO panels and drilling a bunch of holes. Then I was was going to use spray adhesive to hold the BAD panel onto OC703/705. Do you see anything wrong with this approach? Thanks.
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post #7809 of 7813 Old 05-18-2020, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by pilsnick View Post
Appreciate the link. I have thought of putting family pictures over acoustic panels in my living room to help with room reflections. Ever since I installed hardwood flooring, I noticed how much sound travels around the house.

My theater (11' x 16' x 7.8') is on the narrower side (11' wide) so I've been looking for ways to make the panels so they don't stick out too much from the side walls. I've been reading up on frameless acoustic panels. I found a discussion on gearslutz where someone used Roman PRO-543 on the edges to stiffen them and then wrapped fabric like GOM around it; using 3M adhesive spray to hold the fabric to the panel. I've also been looking at different diffusion options. Also on gearslutz, I saw a suggesting on copying a BAD example. I was thinking of blowing up a picture of a BAD, overlaying it 4 layers of 2' x 4' x 1/4" MDO panels and drilling a bunch of holes. Then I was was going to use spray adhesive to hold the BAD panel onto OC703/705. Do you see anything wrong with this approach? Thanks.
Yeah, acoustics get tougher and tougher as the space gets smaller, but that is where treatments can help, as you know.

I guess I haven't seen many people trying to apply something to harden the edges. OK, I haven't seen anyone try to do that. I understand the concept of a frameless panel, but what is your objective with it? To save 1.5" of width and height? To make the panel thinner somehow?

The absorption material performance increases the thicker it is, we know that, but if you take some material and add an air gap behind it, it performs almost as good as if it was full insulation thickness (2" of OC703 plus 2" air gap is almost as good as 4" of OC703, but at a lot less cost).

I'm not saying that you need to put something 4" thick on your walls, but you are going to want at least 2" of OC703 equivalent absorption material for a broadband panel, and at that point you could frame it with 1x3 poplar for pretty cheap, have something with crisp edges that could also be rounded over, beveled, or whatever if desired, be just 2.5" thick, have a small bump of "free" air gap performance, and have something rigid to attach mounting hardware to.

BAD panels are a fun experiment in being able to make precision drill holes. You could make a couple and stick the acoustic insulation to the back using spray adhesive. Just be careful with how much you put on the insulation as you can end up with an unintended frequency blocker at a high frequency. Possibly not noticeable to the ear, but just something to be careful with. If it were me, I would apply a full spray over the back of the BAD and a light spray to the insulation. It will still bond, but the insulation behind the holes won't be as coated. Or again, use some 1x# and just attach the BAD to the frame and friction fit the insulation.

Again, I'm not sure what the purpose of the frameless panel is for your specific case.

I haven't looked at building BAD panels for a while, but shouldn't it be 1/8" thick HDF or equivalent instead of 1/4" MDO? I guess BAD panels aren't Helmholtz, so maybe that doesn't actually matter. Are you planning on making square-ish 31 x 33 panels (1/2" holes with 1/4" between the holes with spaces that obviously won't have holes) or try to cut the "BAD" layout to something more rectangular? If you want to mimic the true BAD panel, you will want OC705 behind it since it is the spec'd 6lb density. Then again, the panels have somewhat evolved to some degree with a lot of DIY personalizations over the years.
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post #7810 of 7813 Old 05-19-2020, 06:46 AM
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Hey there my old Iowa AVS meet friends! Long time, no talk! First time I've logged into AVS in a long while! Hello from sunny Utah!

An old friend of mine in the Des Moines area just called and his house was struck by lightning during a storm Thursday afternoon. On the outside, it hit a roof peak, did some damage there, damaged some gutter and fascia on the way down, and blew some stone off the side of the house from around the gas line entry on the side of the house. Inside, it took out several TVs, a Tivo, some Rokus, his kid's graphics card on his gaming PC, a garage door opener, and in his home theater, at the very least his Sony HW40ES. He hasn't been able to check the AVR or sources yet.

Long story short, he needs a projector. He set his budget upper-limit at about $3000. He runs a scope screen and would love to eliminate the "get up from the couch to adjust the lens" dance. So, I recommended either an Epson 5050 or possibly a used JVC (or a last-gen b-stock JVC if AV Science has any).

I checked the classifieds and he's going to call AV Science Monday, but I'd thought I'd just check with the old gang here and see if anybody was getting the upgrade bug to go to one of the new JVC machines and was perhaps ready to sell his old one.

I hope you're all surviving the pandemic and getting back to some semblance of normal life.

Regards,
SC
Nice to hear from you! Hope everything is going well in UT. Audio Video Logic carries the 5050 and can probably come close to that price point. He just missed some of us upgrading e-shift JVCs. @thrillcat was toying with upgrading his 540, but I'm not sure how serious he was. If things weren't crazy right now I'd advise him to checkout NX5 b-stock as they would come pretty close to his price point. But JVC projectors seem to be really scarce in the sales channel right now.

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post #7811 of 7813 Old 05-19-2020, 07:53 AM
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Nice to hear from you! Hope everything is going well in UT. Audio Video Logic carries the 5050 and can probably come close to that price point. He just missed some of us upgrading e-shift JVCs. @thrillcat was toying with upgrading his 540, but I'm not sure how serious he was. If things weren't crazy right now I'd advise him to checkout NX5 b-stock as they would come pretty close to his price point. But JVC projectors seem to be really scarce in the sales channel right now.
I was toying with it. I would have to know there was another projector on its way to my room before I actually sold my X790R (around 700hrs) though. I really like this projector. Would love the tone mapping of the newer models, but I really like this projector.

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post #7812 of 7813 Old 05-19-2020, 09:17 PM
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Yeah, acoustics get tougher and tougher as the space gets smaller, but that is where treatments can help, as you know.

I guess I haven't seen many people trying to apply something to harden the edges. OK, I haven't seen anyone try to do that. I understand the concept of a frameless panel, but what is your objective with it? To save 1.5" of width and height? To make the panel thinner somehow?

The absorption material performance increases the thicker it is, we know that, but if you take some material and add an air gap behind it, it performs almost as good as if it was full insulation thickness (2" of OC703 plus 2" air gap is almost as good as 4" of OC703, but at a lot less cost).

I'm not saying that you need to put something 4" thick on your walls, but you are going to want at least 2" of OC703 equivalent absorption material for a broadband panel, and at that point you could frame it with 1x3 poplar for pretty cheap, have something with crisp edges that could also be rounded over, beveled, or whatever if desired, be just 2.5" thick, have a small bump of "free" air gap performance, and have something rigid to attach mounting hardware to.

BAD panels are a fun experiment in being able to make precision drill holes. You could make a couple and stick the acoustic insulation to the back using spray adhesive. Just be careful with how much you put on the insulation as you can end up with an unintended frequency blocker at a high frequency. Possibly not noticeable to the ear, but just something to be careful with. If it were me, I would apply a full spray over the back of the BAD and a light spray to the insulation. It will still bond, but the insulation behind the holes won't be as coated. Or again, use some 1x# and just attach the BAD to the frame and friction fit the insulation.

Again, I'm not sure what the purpose of the frameless panel is for your specific case.

I haven't looked at building BAD panels for a while, but shouldn't it be 1/8" thick HDF or equivalent instead of 1/4" MDO? I guess BAD panels aren't Helmholtz, so maybe that doesn't actually matter. Are you planning on making square-ish 31 x 33 panels (1/2" holes with 1/4" between the holes with spaces that obviously won't have holes) or try to cut the "BAD" layout to something more rectangular? If you want to mimic the true BAD panel, you will want OC705 behind it since it is the spec'd 6lb density. Then again, the panels have somewhat evolved to some degree with a lot of DIY personalizations over the years.
My goal with hardening the edges is to have the panels be thin. I'm trying to minimize the panel thickness so they don't protrude out from the wall. My room isn't that wide (11'), so I expect to notice the more the panels stick out. I also want to use some panels on the ceiling, and I have a soffit right above my seating area. The soffit drops the ceiling height to less than 7', so an additional drop in ceiling height will be noticeable. I don't plan on using a BAD for the ceiling panels. I understand that going with a frame that gives the panel an air gap will help with lower frequency absorption, but I'm willing to go with a heavier/denser panel like OC 705 and no air gap instead of OC 703 with air gap.

You're correct about the recommendations having the BAD be 1/8" HDF. I incorrectly stated MDO. I plan on using hardboard panels that I can get at Menards. I'm thinking of using 1/4" hardboard instead of 1/8" because it seemed that 1/8" panel didn't hold it's shape as well as the 1/4" panel. If I go down the path of hardening the edges of the OC 705 and apply the BAD to the OC705 with a spray adhesive, I was concerned that 1/8" hardboard could change the shape of the OC 705 because the 1/8" hardboard was warped. I'm not familiar with OC 705. Do you think that could happen, or do you think that the OC 705 is stiff enough to hold it's shape? Thanks.

Erick
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post #7813 of 7813 Old 05-20-2020, 12:41 PM
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My goal with hardening the edges is to have the panels be thin. I'm trying to minimize the panel thickness so they don't protrude out from the wall. My room isn't that wide (11'), so I expect to notice the more the panels stick out. I also want to use some panels on the ceiling, and I have a soffit right above my seating area. The soffit drops the ceiling height to less than 7', so an additional drop in ceiling height will be noticeable. I don't plan on using a BAD for the ceiling panels. I understand that going with a frame that gives the panel an air gap will help with lower frequency absorption, but I'm willing to go with a heavier/denser panel like OC 705 and no air gap instead of OC 703 with air gap.

You're correct about the recommendations having the BAD be 1/8" HDF. I incorrectly stated MDO. I plan on using hardboard panels that I can get at Menards. I'm thinking of using 1/4" hardboard instead of 1/8" because it seemed that 1/8" panel didn't hold it's shape as well as the 1/4" panel. If I go down the path of hardening the edges of the OC 705 and apply the BAD to the OC705 with a spray adhesive, I was concerned that 1/8" hardboard could change the shape of the OC 705 because the 1/8" hardboard was warped. I'm not familiar with OC 705. Do you think that could happen, or do you think that the OC 705 is stiff enough to hold it's shape? Thanks.

Erick
How "thin" were you thinking?

I wouldn't touch anything less than 2" thick. The days of 1" absorption died in the early 2000's. 2" really isn't much sticking out from the walls. My room is about 14' wide, and my panels are 24" x 48" x 3.5" for the side walls. They look really bulky until you put them on the wall. I planned on having to cut mine thinner do to my wife not liking them, but once they had the printed fabric on them and were hung on the wall, she didn't think that they looked too big at all. So your room is 79% of the width of mine, so 79% of 3.5" is 2.75" and being the same ratio of depth, so to speak.

OC705 is what is modeled in the BAD panels anyway, so it might be most cost effective to use OC705 at all locations depending on purchase options. I was just using the tested OC 703 + air gap example to talk about performance from free air. OC703 works better overall for broadband panels vs OC705 that benefits lower frequencies from the increased density. That is why OC705 has been popular for some bass trap models, but it is twice an dense as OC703 that might work better overhead, but again brings up the potential issue with needing OC703 for overhead, and OC705 for the BAD panels and limits of purchase quanties, etc.

If you aren't using sides for the BAD panels, then you really are relying on the front HDF, or whatever material you decide on, to hold the shape of the panel so you probably would be better with 1/4". You should consider it "attaching the OC705 to the BAD sheet" and not "attaching the BAD sheet to the OC705."

Then the challenge comes in the mounting of the panel. With no structure except the front face (which happens to be the furthest from the wall and have the most weight, you could need some creative mounting solution that won't rip out of the OC705.

I know that you can get 1x2 MDF board or 1x2 furring strips at Menards for cheap that are a true 2" wide for sides of the panels. Then it could match the 2" thick insulation and offer a frame.

Just trying to think of options to help.
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