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post #211 of 237 Old 08-10-2002, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jfischer


My network is full-duplex 100Mbps, and if the data rate is only 18Mbps for HDTV I should be fine. If it's not, I can always wire up Gigabit (the run to the server is only about 12 feet to the basement). Server is a PIII-933 Win2K server with 512MB of RAM, with hardware RAID for up to 6 IDE drives :)

I'd prefer to keep as much noise in another area if possible, that's why I would really consider putting all the drive space into the remote server where the 6 drives can whine away without bothering me :)
My point is this: the network step is not necessary. If you record over the network, you have all of the speed concerns that you have when recording on a local drive PLUS the network lag. Granted, the lag is not much, but it is there. No matter how you look at it, you can get the bits to the drive faster if it is local. I'm not trying to say that it won't work, but that you should ensure that it will work. I might also be concerned about the processor speed on the server. I doubt it will be an issue, but it's a tad slower than I'd like. Does the server serve anything else?

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post #212 of 237 Old 08-10-2002, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MidniteArrow


My point is this: the network step is not necessary. If you record over the network, you have all of the speed concerns that you have when recording on a local drive PLUS the network lag.
It is to me because the whine of hard drives makes me nuts :) The sound of 6 drives running next to my TV would just be out of the question...

Actually, recording to the network works better in some cases because the server can buffer the incoming data, where when using local drives you can be interrupted by swap files, etc.

The speed of the server's CPU is pretty much irrelevant. Where you need the speed is at the HTPC end for encoding/decoding the data. The file server could be running a PII-233 and it would still work fine.

To test this theory, I just copied a 600MB file down to my server - at an average of 7MB/second. I then copied a different 500MB file back to my local workstation at between 5-6MB/second. That's about as good as you can do on a 100Mbit network (if I had faster drives I could probably get that read speed up a bit).

HD is at best 2.2MB/second, so I don't see any problem whatsoever trying to stream the data down to the server, or for getting it back. There's enough available bandwidth to easily accomodate an HDTV stream on a 100Mbit/second network (assuming you don't have 100s of other users on it at the same time, and I don't).
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post #213 of 237 Old 08-10-2002, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Tivolicious said:
I would *seriously* doubt that any overscan/keystone corrections are built into this set. The set would have to have a much more complex optical mechanism. Cost wise this just would make sense on a fixed distance set.
Then it seems I have these options:

(1) Forget about using the HLM507W as a computer monitor, or...

(2) Hope for sample-to-sample variations in the set, leading to a few of them having the correct (or at least better) geometry.

Maybe other owners will be able to report that their DLP units have less keystone distortion built in.

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post #214 of 237 Old 08-10-2002, 06:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Syzygy
Then it seems I have these options:

(1) Forget about using the HLM507W as a computer monitor, or...

(2) Hope for sample-to-sample variations in the set, leading to a few of them having the correct (or at least better) geometry.

Maybe other owners will be able to report that their DLP units have less keystone distortion built in.
Frank,

Do me a favor (because from the violent reaction to the "geometry issue" I don't think that you have done this) download the test pattern. I think that you will see why *I* think that you are making a mountain out of a molehill.

-Steve

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post #215 of 237 Old 08-10-2002, 06:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Syzygy

• Top right corner: 11 pixels lost at the right side, and 8 at the top.
• Bottom right corner: 33 pixels lost at the right side, and 12 at the bottom.
I think that these numbers are *way* off.

I don't have time to really look at it. However, a quick glance shows about 13(ish) pixels to the right of the top 5. The bottom right shows the five nearly flush. If you look at the original test pattern, the top right 5 seems to be about 12(ish) pixels further to the left than the bottom right.

You are REALLY good if you can detect a keystone problem of 1 pixel.

-Steve

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post #216 of 237 Old 08-10-2002, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jfischer

The speed of the server's CPU is pretty much irrelevant. Where you need the speed is at the HTPC end for encoding/decoding the data. The file server could be running a PII-233 and it would still work fine.
Well, I don't know if I agree with that. The bits have to get CPU cycles to get transferred. If the CPU is otherwise occupied, the cycles will take longer. If the machine is "only" a file server, I'll agree with you (and this sounds like the case from the rest of your post). However, if the machine is otherwise occupied, and more importantly if the hard drive recording the data is otherwise occupied, you could have some slight issues. Shouldn't be a problem because of the buffering though.

I'd still want to test that with streaming HD data. But that comes from my job. I do not think you'll have a problem, but still advise testing before significant financial commitment.

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post #217 of 237 Old 08-10-2002, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MidniteArrow


Well, I don't know if I agree with that. The bits have to get CPU cycles to get transferred.
File serving takes very little CPU power. The NIC uses very little CPU power to get its job done. While I was doing my file transfer tests, the CPU was 90%+ idle (and this was to a volume that is software mirrored). I'm pretty sure that if I were using the hardware RAID controller the CPU utilization would drop even further.

At work we still have some old PII servers with 512MB of RAM as active file servers on our network and they keep up just fine. Since I'm able to pull data at about the maximum rate you can get thru a 100Mbit network, I think my server is fine :)

If the server can take a 600MB transfer and easily sustain 5+ MB/second, I'm sure it can handle an HDTV stream at only 2MB/second. And if it can't, there's always Gigabit Ethernet :)
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post #218 of 237 Old 08-10-2002, 07:36 PM - Thread Starter
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At some point we have to rename this thread to:

"Remote server distribution of HTPC recorded Hi-Def content."

(hint hint)

-Steve

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post #219 of 237 Old 08-10-2002, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
HDTV stream at only 2MB/second
Only 2? Mine uses 19.7 MB/s when I stream HDTV over my network.

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post #220 of 237 Old 08-10-2002, 08:49 PM
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vfrjim,

Are you sure that yours uses 19.7 MegaBytes/second? I think that compressed HD takes up about 20 Megabits/second = ~2.5 MegaBytes/second.

Steve,

Do you try streaming HD to your HLM507? (Had to try to get this back on subject :) ).

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post #221 of 237 Old 08-11-2002, 06:38 AM
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Well, now your making me 2nd guess it. I asked the same question in the Home Theater Computers section of these boards and I got a response of 19.7 MB/s but I just calculated it and and came up at ~2.222 MB/s cause it uses 8 gigs per hour and 3600 seconds in a hour which comes out to 2222222.222222222R per second, so it must be Megabits :)

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post #222 of 237 Old 08-11-2002, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jfischer


File serving takes very little CPU power. The NIC uses very little CPU power to get its job done. While I was doing my file transfer tests, the CPU was 90%+ idle (and this was to a volume that is software mirrored). I'm pretty sure that if I were using the hardware RAID controller the CPU utilization would drop even further.

At work we still have some old PII servers with 512MB of RAM as active file servers on our network and they keep up just fine. Since I'm able to pull data at about the maximum rate you can get thru a 100Mbit network, I think my server is fine :)

If the server can take a 600MB transfer and easily sustain 5+ MB/second, I'm sure it can handle an HDTV stream at only 2MB/second. And if it can't, there's always Gigabit Ethernet :)
Stop agreeing with me!!!!

We're not in contention on this point. I agree that it's not a problem if the machine is a dedicated file server. It's just that server means different things to different people. Anyway, as previously stated, time to get this thread back on track.

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post #223 of 237 Old 08-11-2002, 09:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Why don't the three of you start a thread about this in one of the 3 different sections of the forum that it *does* belong in.

-Steve

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post #224 of 237 Old 08-11-2002, 09:15 AM
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Nothing personal but I keep checking this thread for things I understand, which isn't much, and your computer lingo is really twisting my mind...actually I wish I understood it but I'm having enough trouble trying to decide if this TV is for me or not:confused:

Harley
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post #225 of 237 Old 08-11-2002, 09:30 AM
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Husker,

What are you tryinig to watch on this set? HD only? DVDs? DirecTV or digital cable? Analog cable? Analog OTA?

-phil

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post #226 of 237 Old 08-11-2002, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by PhilB
Husker,

What are you tryinig to watch on this set? HD only? DVDs? DirecTV or digital cable? Analog cable? Analog OTA?

-phil
Digital cable, DVD's, some analog cable, some high-definition Time Warner.

Since I started researching for a new TV I realized that this has become one of the hardest decisions to make in the whole scope of home theater for me, I actually thought that I would be able to just visit this section of the Forum and be able to determine from the talk going back and forth as to which TVs are the ones to buy, little did I realize that it would be this complicated of a decision.

I've already realized that I'm gonna have to buy a new DVD player because the one I have which I thought was good until I started reading what happens when you go to a larger screen (garbage in garbage out) it only magnifies the bad so if I can make it through this decision then I'm going to have to start researching DVD players.......Oh well I guess this is what Home Theater is all about:rolleyes:

Harley

PS: I don't care if you guys go back and forth about your computer stuff because I realize that somewhere down the road I'm probably going to end up with HTPC:cool:
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post #227 of 237 Old 08-11-2002, 10:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by HuskerHarley

PS: I don't care if you guys go back and forth about your computer stuff because I realize that somewhere down the road I'm probably going to end up with HTPC:cool:
It not that I mind the computer talk. It is just a shame that nearly all talk of the set has ceased. I know that, for the most part, I stopped checking it because every new post was about an HTPC issue that has been talked to death in the HTPC forum.

-Steve

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post #228 of 237 Old 08-11-2002, 11:17 AM
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Back to topic. Steve, I'm still curious how black and white material looks on the TV. It seems like with the color wheel design you might see flecks of red, green, and blue when viewing B&W. Have you had a chance to view any B&W stuff, and how does it look on the HLM507W?

Thanks.
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post #229 of 237 Old 08-11-2002, 12:30 PM
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Thanks for the specs MDRiggs. I was mostly worried about uncompressed DD audio, but it's starting to look like compression won't be an issue. Historically, I have associated a degradation in quality with compression, but if the signal is compressed when I get it, then that's the most quality I'll be able to record anyway, so why not just record it compressed?
There's no such animal as uncompressed DD. Dolby Digital is a multichannel perceptual-coding (data reduction, or compression) system. It's an excellent system, however, and it is very difficult (usually impossible, especially at 448 kbps) to hear any difference between an uncompressed original and the DD'd version. Certainly it would make sense to just record the signal (video and audio) directly rather than decompressing it first or trying to apply some additional compression.
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post #230 of 237 Old 08-11-2002, 05:32 PM
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Question:

Is there a standard VGA input on this set? If so, has anyone tried sending a 1280x720p signal to the set using this port? (The DVI port will not work with the HD decoder card I'm considering for the HTPC)

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post #231 of 237 Old 08-11-2002, 05:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by MidniteArrow
Question:

Is there a standard VGA input on this set? If so, has anyone tried sending a 1280x720p signal to the set using this port? (The DVI port will not work with the HD decoder card I'm considering for the HTPC)
That's how my AccessDTV card is hooked up right now.

-Steve

p.s. Does this mean that we have officially decided to return to the topic at hand. ;)

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post #232 of 237 Old 08-11-2002, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tivolicious

That's how my AccessDTV card is hooked up right now.
What's the tradeoff of using the regular VGA connector vs the DVI connector?

Quote:
p.s. Does this mean that we have officially decided to return to the topic at hand. ;)
Not clear, this falls in both the HLM507W and HTPC pervue ;)

- Sepia
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post #233 of 237 Old 08-11-2002, 06:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sepia


What's the tradeoff of using the regular VGA connector vs the DVI connector?



Regular VGA is analog. DVI is digital. If you feed this set a digital signal, there is no need for it to ever convert to analog. This means that nothing can be lost due to D/A A/D conversions.

Quote:

Not clear, this falls in both the HLM507W and HTPC pervue ;)

- Sepia
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post #234 of 237 Old 08-11-2002, 07:06 PM
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Steve, isn't the analog VGA input of 507 only accepts up to 1024*768 max? If so, how does HDTV looks at that resolution, instead of a native HDTV resolution of 1280*720?

Which input looks better (for HDTV)? AccessDTV to VGA input, or AccessDTV to Component input?
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post #235 of 237 Old 08-11-2002, 10:39 PM
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Steve, back to a previous question: have you watched black and white material on your set? How did it look? Many thanks.
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post #236 of 237 Old 08-12-2002, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Tivolicious said:
Frank: Do me a favor (because from the violent reaction to the "geometry issue" I don't think that you have done this) download the test pattern. I think that you will see why *I* think that you are making a mountain out of a molehill.

I think that these numbers are *way* off. I don't have time to really look at it. However, a quick glance shows about 13(ish) pixels to the right of the top 5. The bottom right shows the five nearly flush. If you look at the original test pattern, the top right 5 seems to be about 12(ish) pixels further to the left than the bottom right. You are REALLY good if you can detect a keystone problem of 1 pixel.

-Steve
The numbers I first posted were...
• Top right corner: 11 pixels lost at the right side, and 8 at the top.
• Bottom right corner: 33 pixels lost at the right side, and 12 at the bottom.

I did download the test pattern in order to make those measurements. I used a screen-magnifying utility and a transparent ruler to examine both the pattern and your screenshots. But I just now did it all over again after you pointed out how the two 5's aren't vertically aligned -- I hadn't noticed that before. :o This time I came up with very different results. If I did it again tomorrow the results would probably change again (but not as much, I hope :D). One good sign: This time, I arrived independently at the same 12-pixel horizontal offset between the two 5's as you saw.

I agree with you now that the keystone "problem" isn't much of a problem after all: only about 4 pixels (on the right side). I think I'd notice 4 pixels of black space, but I guess I could learn to live with it. My measurements:
Code:
                                T o d a y          First Post
                        -------------------------  ----------
                         Test      Your     Lost      Lost
                        Pattern  Pictures  Pixels    Pixels
Upper right '5'
  Pixels above it:         17       13        4         8
  Pixels to its right:     37       16       21        11
Lower right '5'
  Pixels to its right:     25        0       25        33
  Pixels below it:         27       12       15        12
I sure wish that, sometime, you'd show us the left side of your screen with the test pattern. (I also wish there was a better test pattern, with lines 20 and 30 pixels from the edges. If such a pattern doesn't exist, that would seem to indicate that losing more than 10 pixels is unacceptable!)

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post #237 of 237 Old 08-27-2002, 11:32 AM
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These threads are humongous, too much to digest. If I am repeating myself--complain to those who repeat stuff in much smaller sets of threads :)

If the theory (now that I've been educated here) is eventually almost everything will be coming in through a switched DVI input (doesn't that make sense?), does this limitation really seem like a big deal long term?

I see myself with only 2 full time inputs to this set (or any other 1 DVI input set) eventually-one from a DVI enabled receiver (that will do the conversion to DVI from any source), and one from component outputs from a STB (for PIP). Is that bad logic?

I just don't see where else the conversion to DVI would be done . . . am I missing something?

Quote:
Originally posted by Tivolicious
-The set doesn't remember the 'stretch mode' on a per connection basis. I found this to be REALLY annoying. Let me explain. I am watching OTA TV and I switch that stretch to "Normal" (i.e. Black side bars .. yes that's right..BLACK ). I then switch to HDTV. When I switch back to antenna, I am in "Wide" mode. I then have to go through the whole cycle of stretches to get back to "Normal." I am hoping that someone fixes this and lets us upgrade the software via the RS-232.

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