Hitachi XWX Red Push in HDTV vs NTSC?? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 529 Old 11-26-2002, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by defed
ok, here's what else i noticed. when using component inputs of dvd (input 2), i used G. antenna input used 4. dvd thru composite (input 3) was also affected by 4.

dvd in 480p or 480i component (input 2) both used G, so im guessing its based on input rather than signal type alone, which i had thought was the case from the other posts, perhaps just my interpretation was incorrect.

have yet to see what F controls, for me its not component dvd like the others have used.

what inputs are ppl using for dvd when they use F for adjusting?
I am interested in the answer to this question. I plan on playing around with these settings tonight.
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post #62 of 529 Old 11-26-2002, 04:14 PM
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I'm using component cables for my connection. (DVD is on Video input 2 if that helps.) And the (F) settings (480p) I adjusted, most definitely effected the color for DVD. I only adjusted the (F) settings at first, so I know altering these settings was what disabled the red push on my DVD image quality.
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post #63 of 529 Old 11-26-2002, 04:21 PM
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Interesting. Thank you for that info. I use input 1 for DVD and input 2 for HDTV on my GWX. I'll just see what my set has in store for me later when I switch that stuff up.

I'm so excited! Hopefully I can finally stop driving my wife crazy about how my reds are out of whack. (Of course she doesn't have a clue what I'm talking about. Apparently I'm crazy ;))
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post #64 of 529 Old 11-26-2002, 08:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Earlier I reported that the same settings seemed to work equally well on 1080i. I have been watching a few shows this evening (i.e. Katie Couric) and I now have to say that it still is not quite right. Using the same settings does reduce the red push somewhat but it is still there compared to the other inputs. At the same time, it seems to create a bluish hue in 1080i that just does not seem quite right. Note I am not using Avia or any definitive reference patterns, just my overall observations. Keep tweaking and sharing, I am sure that collectively we will nail those settings. Too bad someone from Hitachi does not join in the fun!
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post #65 of 529 Old 11-26-2002, 08:09 PM
 
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I think that is probably against company rules even if they do monitor this site.

Also,

They don't want us messing inside the set either...
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post #66 of 529 Old 11-26-2002, 08:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Agreed. At the same time I have seen other forums where insiders are posting info using alias identities. If some Hitachi engineer decides to pose as JoeTheISF, I promise not to rat him out!

Like you said earlier, some predefined setting options would be the simpler approach (showroom mode, home mode, etc). At the very least, instead of a tint control, have a single adjustment on each color like on Grandma's old console TV with the mechanical tuner! Even something as simple as different user adjustable settings per input would be better than nothing.

Getting the 1080i right will be tricky without a test feed of some sort.
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post #67 of 529 Old 11-26-2002, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Earlier I reported that the same settings seemed to work equally well on 1080i. I have been watching a few shows this evening (i.e. Katie Couric) and I now have to say that it still is not quite right. Using the same settings does reduce the red push somewhat but it is still there compared to the other inputs. At the same time, it seems to create a bluish hue in 1080i that just does not seem quite right. Note I am not using Avia or any definitive reference patterns, just my overall observations. Keep tweaking and sharing, I am sure that collectively we will nail those settings. Too bad someone from Hitachi does not join in the fun!
I need to preface this by saying that I am most definitely not and ISF guru. However, I think another tweak could also be in the listings above the others that may also need tweaking. I'm talking about these:

My Factory default settings:
COLOR-4 5A
COLOR-F 5A
COLOR-G 5C

TINT-4 45
TINT-F 42
TINT-G 45

If you look at the numbers above, the color setting for 1080i (G), is different than those for 480i and 480p. That would lead me to believe that this is, along with other possible settings, may be a reason for a difference in color.

I have personally not altered these from the factory defaults, since I don't yet have any 1080i box to test things out with.

Also, people were wondering if the settings for (4), (F) and (G) really were for 480i, 480p and 1080i, respectively, OR, if they were for different input settings. I think I can be fairly certain that they are indeed for the following:

480i = (4)
480p = (F)
1080i = (G)

Why did I come to that conclusion? Well, if you look at the "SHARP" settings in the ISF list sandwiched between these two for tweaking in the list, you'll see the following:

SHARP-4
SHARP-A
SHARP-B
SHARP-9
SHARP-E

There are 5 separate variables to this list. Thus, I'm guessing that THIS is the list for sharpness settings based on inputs. I mean, what other tweak for sharpness would have 5 separate variables? Also, since (4) is listed, and we've guessed that (4) = 480i, it would make sense.

So, in this guess, the (4), (F), and (G) settings should definitely be for the different resolutions, and not the inputs.

Then again, this is just a guess, I'm not an ISF tech, and I got a D+ in Advanced Algebra/Trig, so take my guess for what it's worth. :D
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post #68 of 529 Old 11-26-2002, 08:43 PM
 
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Inaka-

Your getting very good at this.

Wish I had a 20B at home to play with....Feel left out.

Do you have a service manual?

We should see if we can figure out all that stuff in there... there is so many headers and adjustments.
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post #69 of 529 Old 11-26-2002, 09:15 PM
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now i feel left out! how come im the only one who adjusted G settings for 480p component dvd? =p

i used the red saturations to make sure what was affecting what. you cant mistake that beautiful picture when you max out the red!

has anyone got the 20b service manual, or know where to get it?

one other thought. if grayscale is the neutral base upon which the color is added, adjusting the color decoder on top of a non 6500k greyscale is only a partial solution? more accurate, but not really accurate?

Dave
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post #70 of 529 Old 11-26-2002, 10:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by defed


One other thought. if grayscale is the neutral base upon which the color is added, adjusting the color decoder on top of a non 6500k greyscale is only a partial solution? more accurate, but not really accurate?

Dave
Guy Kuo explained this-:D (Guy is the dude who made AVIA DVD)

Quote:
I keep seeing this time and time again when people learn about red push problems, cut and drive controls in the service menu, put the two together in a flash of brilliance and try to fix red push by cutting down the amount of red using the red drive controls. Even if you are not currently thinking about doing something in the service menu, tuck the following tidbit away for later.

==================================================

Grayscale and Color Decoding are Not the Same Thing

Do not confuse grayscale (aka white balance or color temperature) with color decoding problems like red push. You must not change controls for one to fix the other. I frequently read of someone trying to correct red push (excess reddish color in red color objects) by displaying color bars and turning down red drive to fix the red. If you are doing anything like that or are contemplating such a manuever, don't. You've fallen into the newcomer trap of confusing the amount of red in the grayscale with the amoutn of red in red colored objects. You've gotten grayscale and color decoding confused with each other.


The video image is basically a grayscale one upon which colorization is added. The color of the underlying grayscale is a specific ratio of red, green, and blue. That ratio ideally creates a color of gray known as D65. If you alter the cuts and drives of a display, you are altering the color of the underlying grayscale image. That grayscale must be kept completely neutral or else any tinting you create would affect all images. If you drop the amount of red you decrease the amount of red globally. Even things which are supposed to be neutral gray would lose the amount of red in them.

Chroma or color information is decoded and used to colorize the underlying grayscale image. The user controls saturation and hue adjust how color decoding is done. If you visualize it in terms of a color wheel. Saturation changes the intensity of colorization. Hue basically alters the angle of the color wheel used to assign colors. Color decoding which causes red push simply means that colors near red are intentionally overemphasized. Note that altering chroma controls does not change the underlying grayscale's color. It changes the colorization which is added.

So you see you have two very different things which shouldn't be mixed up.

Grayscale
Color Decoding

The color of gray is examined using things which have no colorization like gray windows, ramps, and field patterns. The idea is to set the grayscale to a neutral D65 using the cuts and drives. Cuts affect mostly the dark end. Drives mostly the bright end. One uses a colorless test pattern because you don't want anything to change the on screen color except the color of gray. BTW, it is quite difficult to set grayscale accurately without some sort of instrumentation.

Color decoding is how the colorization information gets interpreted and then added atop the neutral grayscale image. The user controls can be used with color bar patterns to make adjustments. Color bars are useful because they contain fixed amounts of colorization which are equal for red, green, and blue (for each portion of the pattern that contains that color). Since the gray portion of the pattern has zero colorization but has a brightness of gray exactly composed of the amount of red, green, and blue which should be in the colored portions of the pattern. One can use the gray as an unchanging point of comparison as color decoding is adjusted. In some displays there are color decoding axis and gain controls which can be used to make a color decoder behave in a more NTSC standard fashion and eliminate red push. Not all sets have such controls.

If the difference between grayscale and color decoding is still unclear, try this analogy.....

You are in charge of art displays across the country and want to ensure that the art looks the same in every one of your galleries. To make that happen you choose a standard color of lamp (D65) for all your galleries.

Think of the color of gray (the grayscale) as the light of the lamp which is illuminating a painting. If the artist chose paint with too much red for faces (decoder has red push), a newbie art corrector could try "fixing" the excess red by reducing the red the lamp light. That would fix the excess red problem in faces but you no longer neutrally illuminate the painting. Everything would be badly tinted because you have changed the underlying white balance. That is what adjusting the cuts and gains does.

The real solution is to convince the artist to always use paints that actually look the right color under the neutral standard lamp (D65). That's basically what you do by adjusting the saturation, tint, and color decoder axes & gains correctly. You have selected paints which are the same color used by artists everywhere when they paint under a D65 colored lamp. This fixes the problem reds without ruining everything else.

A few artists still insist on using the wrong color of paint. In such cases you force the audience to stay in a bright red room to make them less sensitive to seeing red when they actually see the incorrtly colored painting (turn down the saturation). This hides the flaw, but doesn't really correct it.

I hope this makes it a little more clear why cuts and drives are not used to correct red push.

:D
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post #71 of 529 Old 11-27-2002, 06:55 AM
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No more lurking...I've got my new 65XWX20b, have gone into the service menu, and adjusted as discussed in this thread. Very noticeable difference for the better.

I'm still confused about the '4' settings though...

Will carrying over the same values used for F and G produce desirable/similar results?

Is there a reason that all of the values started out different (IOW, is it possibly not the best idea to just use same values)?

I *seemed* to notice a difference with 480i (sat & dvd) even though I didn't modify the 4's (am I just imagining the change?). I'm not using Avia...I only have VE and I have just borrowed (stolen?) the numbers so kindly posted here. Perhaps the F affects not only 480P from prog players, but also the internal 540P upconvert from 480i? If that's the case, when would there ever be a 480i displayed on this set and why do we think '4' controls it?

Has it been confirmed that it does not matter which source/input you are viewing when in the service menu (i.e. the changes are global for 480i, 480p(540P?), 1080i regardless of input)?

As you can probably tell, this is the first time I have ever been in a service menu of a TV...thanks for your patience if I got a lot of this wrong. Thanks to all, but expecially to mfusick, ken stokes, prakish, and amph for all of the great info over the last few months that led me to this great set!
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post #72 of 529 Old 11-27-2002, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mfusick
I think that is probably against company rules even if they do monitor this site.

Also,

They don't want us messing inside the set either...
Greetings

Enjoy this while it lasts ... the ISF countdown timer will be added in the next generation of sets.

You play in there ... you pay the price ...

Regards

Michael Chen @ The Laser Video Experience
ISF/THX/TLV Video Instructor
The Video Calibration Education Hub - www.TLVEXP.com

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post #73 of 529 Old 11-27-2002, 08:10 AM
 
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I remember rumors about this when the 20B models came out...

Nothing will really stop people from tweaking, only defer them.

Also, assuming you do nothing wrong or have a store bought warranty, I think little would come of it.

It's a good idea I agree with in principle, why should Hitachi (or any other MFG) foot the bill for someone else's user error?

but, not covering somthing that they should because of unrelated tampering (such as a D6500K calibration of the drive and cuts) I fear...


We will have to see...
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post #74 of 529 Old 11-27-2002, 08:10 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by Mfusick
[b]Welcome to the club...



Here is some pictures, incase we need to compile further a tweaks post.



links don't work on my end :(
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post #75 of 529 Old 11-27-2002, 08:14 AM
 
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[quote]Originally posted by RichUF
[b]
Quote:
Originally posted by Mfusick
Welcome to the club...



Here is some pictures, incase we need to compile further a tweaks post.



links don't work on my end :(
Try this:

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...007&fullpage=1

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...005&fullpage=1

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...003&fullpage=1

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=179285


https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...000&fullpage=1
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post #76 of 529 Old 11-27-2002, 08:14 AM
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Greetings

It just means that you have to be bloody sure of yourself if you go in there to tweak because it will void your warranty for the parameters in that area.

It will not totally void your warranty ...

So if your grayscale sucked and you tried to fix it first yourself and decided you could not do it right or get it any better ... Hitachi will no longer come in to fix your grayscale under warranty ...

Stuff like that ...

Regards

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The Video Calibration Education Hub - www.TLVEXP.com

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post #77 of 529 Old 11-27-2002, 08:16 AM
 
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Make sense to me...

I'd have no problem with that.
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post #78 of 529 Old 11-27-2002, 08:17 AM
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I think I know the answer to this already, but If one was to squawk loudly enough to Hitachi about grayscale being off (ref. SGHT article on 51S) and colors being out of whack from NTSC standard (and ATSC?) in service menu on their flagship model, what are the chances that they may actually do something about it? I know better than to expect that my CC EW will do anyting outside of "factory spec" (whatever that is).

I don't really want to fiddle around in the service menu, I just want my picture to look as good as it can based on what I think I paid for. I have really hated this "look how good this one looks next to this one" in the store nonsense that I have had to endure prior to purchase.

Rich
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post #79 of 529 Old 11-27-2002, 08:17 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by RichUF

As you can probably tell, this is the first time I have ever been in a service menu of a TV...thanks for your patience if I got a lot of this wrong. Thanks to all, but expecially to MFusick, Ken Stokes, Prakash, and Amph for all of the great info over the last few months that led me to this great set!
Welcome to the club:D
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post #80 of 529 Old 11-27-2002, 08:24 AM
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thanks for the links. No way am I getting into the guts of this puppy at this point, and probably never! Minor adjustment in service menu took some guts to try ;)

I'll start saving my pennies for a friendly ISF tech down the road.
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post #81 of 529 Old 11-27-2002, 08:35 AM
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Regarding HDTV, my jaw has yet to drop with the possible exception of the Alabama/Auburn game on CBS last Saturday (first day with set). Why don't the primetime shows look as good? (so far I've sampled CSI Miami, Leno, and NYPD Blue). Dark scenes as opposed to out in the bright sun perhaps? I'm waiting to be impressed before showing the set off to friends for fear of potential "you paid $$$$$$ for that?" comments.

BTW, OTA/internal tuner (no, Amphicar770, I don't HATE the tuner yet ;) )
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post #82 of 529 Old 11-27-2002, 09:21 AM
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RichUF:
Local HD feed's must vary quite abit from city to city

Quote:
Regarding HDTV, my jaw has yet to drop with the possible exception of the Alabama/Auburn game on CBS last Saturday (first day with set). Why don't the primetime shows look as good? (so far I've sampled CSI Miami, Leno, and NYPD Blue). Dark scenes as opposed to out in the bright sun perhaps? I'm waiting to be impressed before showing the set off to friends for fear of potential "you paid $$$$$$ for that?" comments.
Last nite I finally hooked up an outside UHF ant. to my 2 week old Hit. 65XWX

Jay Leno has saved me from the wifes constant whining about the "way to big and ugly" TV I was sooooo stupid to buy" It totally blew us away. Maybe most HD tv's look that good I don't have that much to compare it with - but it has gained new status in my stable of gadgets as the only one that stoped my wife dead in her tracks with a very loud "O.M.G. thats amazing" then she slolwly slid down to a chair and was silent for the rest of Leno - that alone was worth the price of admisson for me.

I truly love this box
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post #83 of 529 Old 11-27-2002, 01:21 PM
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Hello All!

I am happy to report that the suggested tweaks in this thread have done wonders for my DVD viewing experience with my 51GWX20b.

Upon entering the service menu (I nailed it with the first try ;)) I discovered a very easy to navigate series of options to choose from. As I scrolled through the menu down to the "folder" labled "ISF" I found it a bit interesting that my default settings were identical to those posted earlier in this thread:

Quote:
posted by inaka

RY-PH-4 00
RY-PH-F 00
RY-PH-G 00

R/B-GA4 0C
R/B-GAF 0C
R/B-GAG 08

GY-PH-4 02
GY-PH-F 02
GY-PH-G 03

G/B-GA4 00
G/B-GAF 00
G/B-GAG 00
Due to the fact that I do not yet own Avia I went ahead and changed the values for 480p as listed in the same post as the "new Settings":

Quote:
RY-PH-F 02
R/B-GAF 03
GY-PH-F 01
G/B-GAF 04
To monitor my changes I used my copy of the Sound and Vision Home Theater Tune Up DVD, Particularly the flashing color bars and the "Red Push Test" chapters. While I was still not able to get the color bars perfect with the new settings and the supplied blue filter, I was able to bring my User Menu color settings WAY up from where I initially had to have it set to reduce the overpowering reds. It jumped from the mid 20's up to the mid 40's!
The Red Push Test chapter was where I noticed the most difference though. For those not familiar with the disk, this test screen displays a close up image of a red sweater along with a yellow tie with instructions to turn down the color settings to a point where the red does not bleed, and the tie does not have an orange hue. Prior to adjusting the service menu settings, the red sweater was almost glowing when I had the basic color settings adjusted according to the blue filter and color bars. The red was so bright that the sweater seemed to be a solid shade of orangey-red, and the tie was definitely on the orange side. Turning down the color as reccomended by the voice over instructions did result in better reds, but at a very noticeable loss in the quality of the other colors.

After adjusting the service menu values the red sweater is most certainly RED, and the yellow is quite YELLOW! Not only that, but I can now see the texture of the sweater and tie themselves without having to turn the color way down. The level of detail was amazing.

When I was satisfied that I had done everything correctly, and had made sure I had saved all my changed settings, I pulled out a stack of DVDs to admire my handywork. The first disk I popped in was "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon" and I skipped directly to the chapter where there is a parade of people wearing solid red walking through the streets. This scene used to bug the heck out of me because the reds were so overpowering even with the color set way down. NOT anymore! Those reds were pretty dang near spot on!

Next came "The Shire" chapter of "The Fellowship of the Ring". I realize that this chapter does not exhibit much red, but I have never been happy with how it looked with my color levels set down to compensate for the unruly reds that appear a bit later in the film. Upon viewing this chapter my wife, who was "patiently" waiting for me to finish this tweak session uttered the only sound she had made in at least an hour; "WOW!".

I'd say that was a big Mission Accomplished on my behalf.

Now that I've rambled on for a bit (too long) about this, I'd like to say just a couple more things on the subject.

I'd like to thank everyone who has contributed to this amazing thread, and amphicar770 for starting it in the first place. I have been looking for this information for quite some time, and I could not be anymore happy to finally have it. I'd especially like to thank Inaka for posting his before and after settings. Without owning Avia I would have no starting point to realy get in there and figure things out. Inaka's results have given me a great starting point. I fully plan on purchasing Avia in the near future to further tweak these values for my set.

I'd also like to thank Michael TLV and Mfusic (among others) for all of the great knowledge they have supplied to these forums regarding our Hitachis and more. Keep it coming, guys. We love it!

Finally, Do this tweak at your own risk! You can really do some nasty things to your set in the service menu if you don't pay attention. I have a pretty messed up 20" VVega to prove this. Please write down any values you change before you go mucking about in there.

Now guys, about those 1080i settings.... :D

-Jamie
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post #84 of 529 Old 11-27-2002, 06:46 PM
 
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The color decoder can be modified by the following parameters in the service menu.

RY-PH-4 Phase (Hue)
RY-PH-F Phase (Hue)
RY-PH-G Phase (Hue)
R/B-GA4 Gain (Saturation)
R/B-GAF Gain (Saturation)
R/B-GAG Gain (Saturation)
GY-PH-4 Phase (Hue)
GY-PH-F Phase (Hue)
GY-PH-G Phase (Hue)
G/B-GA4 Gain (Saturation)
G/B-GAF Gain (Saturation)
G/B-GAG Gain (Saturation)

The 4,F,and G suffixes correlate to the different modes 480I,480P,1080I respectively.

Using the AVIA color bars you can decrease RED push by modifying the the parameters that begin with R. And likewise you can make modifications to the Green portion of the decoder by modifying the parameters prefixing with G.
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post #85 of 529 Old 11-28-2002, 05:56 AM
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Greetings everyone and thanks to those of you for sharing this knowledge with the rest of us. I own a 57UWX20B and was unhappy with the red push as well. I did the settings as recommended by inaka and had great results.
I have my interlaced DVD hooked up to input 1 and adjusting F did correct the red push. Spiderman and the red wedding scene from Crouching Tiger were much improved.
1080i is also improved from the same settings on G. Being able to increase the color has really improved the HD shows. I am waiting til Sunday's reruns to see how it affects Smallville as this show was almost unwatchable at times.
Thanks again for all of the great info!
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post #86 of 529 Old 11-28-2002, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by DYH

I have my interlaced DVD hooked up to input 1 and adjusting F did correct the red push. Spiderman and the red wedding scene from Crouching Tiger were much improved.
1080i is also improved from the same settings on G. Being able to increase the color has really improved the HD shows. I am waiting til Sunday's reruns to see how it affects Smallville as this show was almost unwatchable at times.
Thanks again for all of the great info!
I was probably a bit wordy with my last inquiry, so I'll try again...

If 'F' adjusts for interlaced dvd and other 480i sources, what does '4' adjust? Anyone?

Thanks, and happy Thanksgiving everyone!
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post #87 of 529 Old 11-28-2002, 05:35 PM
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contrary to what the others post, i still think its more of input type rather than source type. perhaps their is just a fine line between the 2 (the terms input and source) that is confusing me/us? semantics if u will.

since 'G' was the parameter that adjusted my dvd as both a 480i SOURCE and a 480p SOURCE, both thru component INPUT.

while '4' adjusted my antenna input and dvd thru composite input, which would both be 480i sources.

i still have yet to see what F does for me, tho everyone else has that as their component input adjustment from dvd.

or maybe im just an idiot w/ a reject model tv :p
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post #88 of 529 Old 11-29-2002, 03:01 PM
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does anybody know who in the southern ontario area can do this red push elimination tweak for me? i don't trust myself to do it.
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post #89 of 529 Old 11-29-2002, 03:03 PM
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me again-i bought the 51swx20b a month ago and love it. so any help to fix red push would be greatly appreciated
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post #90 of 529 Old 11-29-2002, 08:28 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by erick granato
me again-i bought the 51swx20b a month ago and love it. so any help to fix red push would be greatly appreciated
Everything you need to know is already here....
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