Official 2005 Sony KDSR-50/60XBR1 SXRD Owner's Thread - Page 280 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #8371 of 24047 Old 02-28-2006, 04:46 PM
 
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"umr noted with amusement all of the negativism about the SXRD sets he sees in this forum and said he doesn't understand it. He told me he has calibrated "a lot" of these sets and hasn't seen the "green blob" issue on any of them (if I understood him correctly.)"

I recommend that he get an eye examination ASAP!! In his business his eyes are the most important tool he has.
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post #8372 of 24047 Old 02-28-2006, 04:47 PM
 
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"Apparently, by qualifying the HDMI imputs with "1080p reception" it appears they will receive 1080p signals."

Too bad they won't be receiving any
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post #8373 of 24047 Old 02-28-2006, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevel View Post

He told me he has calibrated "a lot" of these sets and hasn't seen the "green blob" issue on any of them (if I understood him correctly.)

Well, if umr hasn't seen it, then it must not exist!
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post #8374 of 24047 Old 02-28-2006, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

I recommend that he get an eye examination ASAP!! In his business his eyes are the most important tool he has.

There is nothing wrong with UMR's eyes or his brain. He has made a massive contribution to this forum.
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post #8375 of 24047 Old 02-28-2006, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

"umr noted with amusement all of the negativism about the SXRD sets he sees in this forum and said he doesn't understand it. He told me he has calibrated "a lot" of these sets and hasn't seen the "green blob" issue on any of them (if I understood him correctly.)"

I recommend that he get an eye examination ASAP!! In his business his eyes are the most important tool he has.


umr is a TOP NOTCH calibrator; to imply otherwise, even in jest, is so far from the truth that it is a disservice to all to even suggest.

now, as for his comment regarding not seeing blobs and having calibrated "a lot" of them, he was most likely referring to the fact that he has calibrated many Qualia 006 TVs...they are, after all, SXRD. i truly suspect that is what he was referring to.
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post #8376 of 24047 Old 02-28-2006, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Schwa View Post

Well, if umr hasn't seen it, then it must not exist!

I wouldn't expect that there would be any after UMR calibrated them. If his customers know what they are doing the sets should be warmed up before he arrives. At least that's what I did before my DLP was calibrated by SethS.
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post #8377 of 24047 Old 02-28-2006, 05:51 PM
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Repairman came by today. He's gonna replace the light engine and video card (I guess they are both on the same part). I'll post results whenever he comes by again. Parts are on order.

Oh, he see's this a lot with SXRD's.

Professional painter/decorator.
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post #8378 of 24047 Old 02-28-2006, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by BenDover View Post

umr is a TOP NOTCH calibrator; to imply otherwise, even in jest, is so far from the truth that it is a disservice to all to even suggest.

EXACTLY !

Nuf said.
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post #8379 of 24047 Old 02-28-2006, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackbeardsSaint View Post

Repairman came by today. He's gonna replace the light engine and video card (I guess they are both on the same part). I'll post results whenever he comes by again. Parts are on order.

Oh, he see's this a lot with SXRD's.


We are aware of the problem(s) this set is experiencing. and by now so is Sony. Remember this is a first generation set and we chose to be first adopters. Many first generation products are not perfect during the first release.

Sony realizes there are problems and they will address them. How, may still may need to be determined. This is a work in progress, Maybe they may not get issues addressed correctly the first time. At least they are addressing the issues via service calls.

Myself, I am willing to wait and allow them to detemine what the cause and provide a properly identified correction. I am willing to show some patience and allow Sony to find a proper remedy. Throwing new parts into my set at this point, without any identified solution is not in my best interest at this point.

Just my take at the moment.

Dave
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post #8380 of 24047 Old 02-28-2006, 07:01 PM
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Having 100% decided on the 60", I went to my local dealer (large chain) and told them we are going to open each box they have, looking for a late build. Once we find an acceptable build date, we are going to fire it up and watch the green blob appear if it even does and if it doesn't go away after 30-45 minutes we will be opening up a new set and repeating the process. I was met with zero resistance on the method I wanted to purchase my unit.

I'll keep you posted. If I have the time, tomorrow is the day, if not then Saturday.
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post #8381 of 24047 Old 02-28-2006, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by phenwick View Post

We are aware of the problem(s) this set is experiencing. and by now so is Sony. Remember this is a first generation set and we chose to be first adopters. Many first generation products are not perfect during the first release.

Sony realizes there are problems and they will address them. How, may still may need to be determined. This is a work in progress, Maybe they may not get issues addressed correctly the first time. At least they are addressing the issues via service calls.

Myself, I am willing to wait and allow them to detemine what the cause and provide a properly identified correction. I am willing to show some patience and allow Sony to find a proper remedy. Throwing new parts into my set at this point, without any identified solution is not in my best interest at this point.

Just my take at the moment.

Dave

That's my plan too.

FWIW, I didn't mean to skewer umr because I know he's a big contributor to the forum, but to imply that the green blob doesn't exist because umr hasn't seen it is crazy. I agree with the poster who said that umr probably was talking about ALL SXRD sets (including the Qualias) when he made that statement. The Qualians haven't had any problems with green blobs.
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post #8382 of 24047 Old 02-28-2006, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by ArnCapo View Post

What does "July Release" mean when it comes to in store availability?

September, October but more likely November.
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post #8383 of 24047 Old 02-28-2006, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by phenwick View Post

We are aware of the problem(s) this set is experiencing and by now so is Sony. Remember this is a first generation set and we chose to be first adopters. Many first generation products are not perfect during the first release.

Though I understand your point, Dave -- and appreciate your position (an admirable one given the tendency for postings to lean towards the fiery end of the scale) -- I'm not certain I agree...

To qualify my biases, I own a Qualia 006 and was hoping to pick up one of the smaller SXRD sets for a second room. I have spent a lot of time watching my neighbors 60" SXRD unit, which has been ISF calibrated.

I think "first generation" may not be an entirely accurate statement regarding the SXRD technology in these sets. Looking ONLY at chip size there are two distinct SXRD generations. Now, one could make the argument that the 4 generations listed below are not distinct iterations of the technology, but in my mind Sony has been developing not only the chips, but the associated optics, electronics, and irises used in different sets:

First Generation: Qualia 004
$30,000 MSRP
$3,000 lenses (by Carl Zeiss)
$3,000 bulb
.78-inch diagonal chip size
Brutally high performance without regard to cost or screen size; superb quality throughout with few apparent compromises.

Second Generation: Qualia 006
$13,000 MSRP
$300 bulb
.78-inch diagonal chip size
Very high performance with a few compromises dictated by the RPTV format and reduced cost -- but another state-of-the-art product at its' price point.

Third Generation: KDSR-50/60XRB1
$3,500/$4,500 MSRP
$250 bulb
.61" diagonal chip size + Advanced Iris
Given the performance of other SXRD sets, I'd have to say that Sony knowingly made compromises in the design of this set to enable it's lower cost. Though its' performance can be quite stunning once calibrated, for me it never reached the "Oh My God!" levels of the Qualia 006. Completely unfair comparison, I know...

Fourth Generation: VPL-VW100 "Ruby"
$10,000 MSRP
$1,000 bulb
.61" diagonal chip size + Advanced Iris
On smaller screens it can equal (or exceed, depending on the reviewer polled) the performance of the Qualia 004. Though some compromises were required given the price point, this is a break-though product that offers unheard of performance per dollar.

It will be VERY interesting to see what path Sony takes with the next 70" SXRD XBR (non-Qualia) set. If they can continue on this price/performance curve without making the price too low (which results in too many performance compromises) they will have really accomplished something with this technology...

...
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post #8384 of 24047 Old 02-28-2006, 10:27 PM
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I'm a new poster so here goes:

My system -

TV - Sony KDS-R60XBR1
STB - Time Warner Cable - Scientific Atlantic 8300HD DVR
DVD - Kenwood Sovereign DV-5700
CD - Sony CDP-CX300
AMP - Sherwood Newcastle R-945
Speakers:
Front NHT ST4
Center NHT SC1
Rear NHT SB3
Sub NHT SW10

Because of limited inputs on my older Kenwood receiver I used the following connections:

Cable in to STB

From the STB:
HDMI out to TV (Video 6)
Digital Audio out to AMP

From the DVD:
Video component video to TV (Video 4)
Audio optical out to AMP

From the CD:
Left and right analog out to AMP

From the AMP:
Monitor out to TV (Video 1 - so that I can see the OSD from the AMP)

I took delivery of the Sony Sunday March 19th. I checked the build date right away (November 2005). I was surprised because others on this forum have been getting January build dates.

The delivery guys took it out of the box. I kept the box, just in case. They set it up and turned it on. I immediately set the picture to Pro and turned off all the settings that could be turned off.

I changed the channel to Discovery HD and WAS BLOWN AWAY.

Regardless of what I have read on this forum, all the magazine reviewers were right. The picture in High Definition is AWESOME. I just watched for a while, and then remembered to check the memory stick, NICE EVEN GREY TONE all across the screen. NO GREEN.

There are no color anomalies, no convergence issues, nothing to complain about. The picture is better than hoped for, and better than expected. I hadn't even tuned it, using my copy of Digital Video Essentials, yet.

I almost didn't buy the set because of the naysayers on this forum. I'm glad I let my own eyes and my own judgment make the decision. As far as the lack of a 1080P input, I say why wait. Program material broadcast in 1080i and up-converted by the TV is amazing. The incremental improvement that might be achieved by waiting for a 1080P input is in my opinion not worth waiting for.

My DVD outputs 480P and the picture while not quite as stunning as 1080i is fantastic. My wife and I sit 9 feet from the screen and enjoy the movie theater like experience.

I have been waiting for LCOS since Hitachi first talked about it about 5 years ago. I had about given up and was ready to buy one of the DLP TVs. I'm glad I didn't. The Sony provides the almost three-dimensional looking through the window experience I had hoped for.

A couple of notes:
While watching the Olympics with all bright white background I did notice the SSE (Silk Screen Effect) that is the only negative I can find and when I get involved in the programming the SSE becomes a non-issue.

I have also read that some people are having trouble getting 5.1 surround sound when their cable is connected to the STB and they use HDMI for their TV connection. I solved that problem by running a digital audio cable from my STB to my AMP (see above) and, when I want 5.1 sound through my surround system, I use the audio output menu on my STB to change the audio output from HDMI (to the TV) to the 5.1 output (to the AMP). I have noticed occasional slight lip-synch problems but they seem to be related to program material. They are not consistent from one source or one program to the next.

One other side note: I had to go back to the store to get a cable that I had forgotten. I had my sunglasses on (they are polarized) when I looked around at the TVs on display they all exhibited color anomalies. Green, blue, purple and yellow blotches, I thought that I had missed something earlier when I had been in but then realized that I still had my polarized glasses on. When I took them off all was OK with the world again. Just a thought but I wonder if there might be something to this for those that continue to see color problems.

I will keep you all posted. Probably next weekend I will do a complete calibration using Digital Video Essentials. I can't imagine the picture getting better but we'll see.

Oh by the way I have two neighbors with CRT RP sets, one a 57 inch Sony the other a 55 inch Mits. Both have requested that I please come and adjust their TVs to try to make them look like mine. I tried to do the Sony and could only come close; there is just no comparison.
LL
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post #8385 of 24047 Old 02-28-2006, 10:58 PM
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rangerbob, looks like you have a HUGE greeen bloob on your screen!!!

Nice set-up!
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post #8386 of 24047 Old 03-01-2006, 04:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AL B. View Post

But girl in customer service seems to be saying that while they will not refund or give me another set at this time the tech is supposely authorized to fix it..whatever that means..

Al,

First, it was great to see that you got a space heater. From your recent posts it looks like that has helped!

Now, as far as the girl in customer service, why are you still talking to her? You have been told over and over and over that what you need to do is go up the ladder. When that girl in customer service answers the phone you need to IMMEDIATELY tell her that you have been back and forth with c.s. and they have not resolved your issues and that you insist on speaking to her supervisor. Don't let her trick you into thinking that she can solve your problem. IT'S HER JOB TO TALK YOU OUT OF GOING TO A SUPERVISOR BUT SHE WILL SUCCEED ONLY IF YOU LET HER. Don't let her. Insist on a supervisor. If that supervisor repeats what the "girl" said then insist on talking to that supervisor's manager.

This mantra has been repeated over and over by many people here.

Good luck.
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post #8387 of 24047 Old 03-01-2006, 04:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Schwa View Post

That's my plan too.

FWIW, I didn't mean to skewer umr because I know he's a big contributor to the forum, but to imply that the green blob doesn't exist because umr hasn't seen it is crazy. I agree with the poster who said that umr probably was talking about ALL SXRD sets (including the Qualias) when he made that statement. The Qualians haven't had any problems with green blobs.

Its not that the green blob doesn't exist, but the implication is that it isn't as common as what people on this forum think it is.
J
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post #8388 of 24047 Old 03-01-2006, 04:47 AM
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Originally Posted by jRickW View Post

Al,



Now, as far as the girl in customer service, why are you still talking to her?

Maybe he's trying to get a date.
J
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post #8389 of 24047 Old 03-01-2006, 04:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwa View Post

That's my plan too.

FWIW, I didn't mean to skewer umr because I know he's a big contributor to the forum, but to imply that the green blob doesn't exist because umr hasn't seen it is crazy. I agree with the poster who said that umr probably was talking about ALL SXRD sets (including the Qualias) when he made that statement. The Qualians haven't had any problems with green blobs.

What I am saying is that the green blob issue is blown WAY out of proportion. I have not seen a green blob "issue" as generally described in this thread with these sets. Color uniformity problems exist with all technologies except DLP. If you want a perfectly uniform display buy DLP. However, SXRD is a perfectly viable display technology. It is just not perfect like every other product on the market.

I had this argument with Rogo a long time ago. He claimed SXRD was perfect. It is not. Here is just one of the posts I made on this subject before.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/showt...&&#post5567027

SXRD has color uniformity issues because it uses polarizers. All polarizer based displays will have some uniformity issues because polarizer alignment is not perfect. Some shift in colors may also occur because of small movements in the polarizer as the display warms up.

Plasma, LCD and CRT displays also have color uniformity problems that appear very similar to SXRD in practice.

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post #8390 of 24047 Old 03-01-2006, 05:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

What I am saying is that the green blob issue is blown WAY out of proportion. I have not seen a green blob "issue" as generally described in this thread with these sets. Color uniformity problems exist with all technologies except DLP. If you want a perfectly uniform display buy DLP. However, SXRD is a perfectly viable display technology. It is just not perfect like every other product on the market.

I had this argument with Rogo a long time ago. He claimed SXRD was perfect. It is not. Here is just one of the posts I made on this subject before.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/showt...&&#post5567027

SXRD has color uniformity issues because it uses polarizers. All polarizer based displays will have some uniformity issues because polarizer alignment is not perfect. Some shift in colors may also occur because of small movements in the polarizer as the display warms up.

Plasma, LCD and CRT displays also have color uniformity problems that appear very similar to SXRD in practice.

Well I guess you're one of the lucky ones. I've had two sets with very prominent green right in the center. Also, I have two co-workers with the same tv who had as bad a green blob or worse. One got his replaced and so far the new one seems fine. The other is holding off on getting a replacement in hopes that an upgrade to the new model might be a viable option through his extended warranty plan.

I find it amusing though that some even after vehemently defending their SXRD as defect-free end up eating crow after the color uniformity issues present themselves (not upon arrival) but a few weeks after the set has been purchased and used. And still we get new posters in this thread who continue the cycle.

To those I say, would you like some bread with that..?




"Guns? Guns are easy."
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post #8391 of 24047 Old 03-01-2006, 05:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackbeardsSaint View Post

Repairman came by today. He's gonna replace the light engine and video card (I guess they are both on the same part). I'll post results whenever he comes by again. Parts are on order.

Oh, he see's this a lot with SXRD's.

I just had my light engine replaced and the picture is now worse in regards to the green blob. Whereas it was in the lower right area, it's now the seemingly traditional donut shape. Even my wife can see it now where before she said she only noticed it because I brought it up.

Another light engine is on order. I have no problems having them keep replacing it.
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post #8392 of 24047 Old 03-01-2006, 05:39 AM
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A green blob in the middle can be calibrated out of the set.

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post #8393 of 24047 Old 03-01-2006, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by umr View Post

A green blob in the middle can be calibrated out of the set.

Via the service menu and still end up with ~6500K?
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post #8394 of 24047 Old 03-01-2006, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by AtlPaul View Post

Via the service menu and still end up with ~6500K?

Certainly. If it is truly green it is not D65. That is the point. The color error can be shifted around the display or to another color.

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post #8395 of 24047 Old 03-01-2006, 06:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

Certainly. If it is truly green it is not D65. That is the point. The color error can be shifted around the display or to another color.

Now, THAT'S interesting.
J
EDIT: Perhaps people with green issues should get their sets professionally calibrated.
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post #8396 of 24047 Old 03-01-2006, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by moviemania View Post

I'm considering buying the 50" SXRD. Are there a few generally accepted "reliable" on-line vendors to shop?

I would strongly urge you to seriously consider local retaillers. Why? If you were to have a problem you likely have a far greater chance of a sucessful resolution of an issue with a local retailer rather then an Internet merchant. There is something to be said for having the ability to have a face-to-face chat.

BTW, I have the 50" and I love it.
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post #8397 of 24047 Old 03-01-2006, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

Certainly. If it is truly green it is not D65. That is the point. The color error can be shifted around the display or to another color.

Interesting.

Since we're at it, there's also blue hue that begins at the left side of the screen extending to (and gradually decreasing in intensity) the middle of the screen on dark scenes.

In addition, there's also a light purple haze that comes alongside the green blob. The tech brought a machine that put up some test patterns and all these issues were obvious to him as well.

I'm not doubting you umr, I'm just saying that to get my set right is going to take quite a bit of "fixing".

"Guns? Guns are easy."
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post #8398 of 24047 Old 03-01-2006, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by umr View Post

Certainly. If it is truly green it is not D65. That is the point. The color error can be shifted around the display or to another color.

Given my limited knowledge, that implies to me that adjustments can be localized to portions of the display, perhaps via 3d gamma settings. It seems the rgb bias and gains cause uniform change across the entire display and hence the underlying problem is hard to mask.
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post #8399 of 24047 Old 03-01-2006, 06:44 AM
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This is not a complete "fix", but you can make it more palatable.

I would suggest people that want total uniformity get a DLP. It is the only option for that. Nothing else will meet those expectations. I recommend the HP displays for those interested in that option.

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post #8400 of 24047 Old 03-01-2006, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by umr View Post

This is not a complete "fix", but you can make it more palatable.

I would suggest people that want total uniformity get a DLP. It is the only option for that. Nothing else will meet those expectations. I recommend the HP displays for those interested in that option.

Personally, I don't expect perfection in color and brightness uniformity out of any set. I just don't expect the problem to be this extreme as it is with my set and perhaps as others have reported with their sets.

I had color and brightness uniformity and geometry issues with my prior CRT hdtv. However, they were very minor when compared to the green blob I see on my set. If my set did not have the blob to the extent that it does and say had some seemingly minor variations in color and brightness then I would consider the set to be perfect - its that nice of a set in all other regards. Trust me, without me posting pictures, its one hell of a blob.

And yes I do have a plan to address the problem which I won't elaborate in this message.
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