Don't dump your CRT RPTV! - Page 164 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4891 of 13452 Old 02-16-2009, 02:19 PM
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Ok, here is an update on my WS-65813 progress:

I wanted to sharpen the optical focus 1st. Took off the front trim panel and then front cover. Was going to try focus with string thru the front. Looked inside, it looked like a vacuum cleaner bag full of dust was dumped in it. Covered the front with cardboard ,cut a hole wide enough to insert a shopvac hose, went around the back pulled the cover. Found out I could reach the crts easy to set focus and see the screen from the inside. Stuffed some beach towels in the crt deck to keep them clean. Draped plastic over the back opening. Got my compressor and blow gun. Fired up the vacuum in the front. Fired up the compressor blow gun and blew out the inside case. Vacuum pulled the dust out thru the front and the plastic kept it out of the room. Nice and Clean now. Wiped up the Crt lens and surrounding area again.

Stuck in hd-dvd dve cross hatch pattern. Covered two lens at a time. Loosened tape. Each lens took at least 3/8" turn before nailing focus. Marked original and new positions with small line with a silver sharpie.Checked and retaped again.

Looked at the CRT cage,how its mounted, looked at the electronics mounted on the deck under the crts, and chickened out of shimming

Got the screen centered with Mr Bobs input, have alittle 5% on sides and about 4.0% top and bottom.

Put in Avia cross hatch with dots output 1080 with dvi. Each CRT needed alittle electro focus. got nice round dots. Couldn't find dot pattern on hd-dve.

Put it all back together and back in place. Hooked up Usdtv tuner, Hd-dvd, and Blu-ray.

Did convergence for HD. Didn't do SD, don't use it. Use hd-dvd hdmi/dvi for regular dvds.

Hdtv programming razor sharp now. Was a little blurry before, but not bad. Excellent now.

Wrote down sets service item settingsfor all the catagories.

Fired up Hcfr. Left Cuts and Drives High alone. Adjusted Cuts and Drives Low. What is med temp, an average of High and Low?

Got it looking a little respectable. Adjusted perfect color for Hd-dvd and Blu-Ray, and HD dvd dvi. That feature is slick. Transfered Hd-dvd component perfect color settings to USDTV tuner just to have something for it.

I tried the mitsu dtv tuner. Today the tv shut off and the green light was blinking while using the mitsu tuner. I thought
NNNOOOOO!!!!! the green blinking of death that I have read about in the forums. Unplugged the set, dison the dtv antenna and hooked up the USDTV tuner. Plugged the set back in and it works. Dont know if the mitsu tuner was the culprit but I'm not using it for now.

Had it on all day still working fine. I'll post my hcfr calibrations in the calibrations forum alittle later.

This is a super set, it looks great even turned off. Nice gloss black and it looks high end. Looks like a big monolith. Can't believe no one makes these anymore. Sad.

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post #4892 of 13452 Old 02-16-2009, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelo M View Post

Looked at the CRT cage,how its mounted, looked at the electronics mounted on the deck under the crts, and chickened out of shimming

I was trying to imagine how the shimming could be done. Does the entire friggin' mass of stuff have to be shimmed, or is there a way to do just the three guns?
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post #4893 of 13452 Old 02-16-2009, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelo M View Post

Ok, here is an update on my WS-65813 progress:

I wanted to sharpen the optical focus 1st. Took off the front trim panel and then front cover. Was going to try focus with string thru the front. Looked inside, it looked like a vacuum cleaner bag full of dust was dumped in it. Covered the front with cardboard ,cut a hole wide enough to insert a shopvac hose, went around the back pulled the cover. Found out I could reach the crts easy to set focus and see the screen from the inside. Stuffed some beach towels in the crt deck to keep them clean. Draped plastic over the back opening. Got my compressor and blow gun. Fired up the vacuum in the front. Fired up the compressor blow gun and blew out the inside case. Vacuum pulled the dust out thru the front and the plastic kept it out of the room. Nice and Clean now. Wiped up the Crt lens and surrounding area again.

Stuck in hd-dvd dve cross hatch pattern. Covered two lens at a time. Loosened tape. Each lens took at least 3/8" turn before nailing focus. Marked original and new positions with small line with a silver sharpie.Checked and retaped again.

Looked at the CRT cage,how its mounted, looked at the electronics mounted on the deck under the crts, and chickened out of shimming

Got the screen centered with Mr Bobs input, have alittle 5% on sides and about 4.0% top and bottom.

Put in Avia cross hatch with dots output 1080 with dvi. Each CRT needed alittle electro focus. got nice round dots. Couldn't find dot pattern on hd-dve.

Put it all back together and back in place. Hooked up Usdtv tuner, Hd-dvd, and Blu-ray.

Did convergence for HD. Didn't do SD, don't use it. Use hd-dvd hdmi/dvi for regular dvds.

Hdtv programming razor sharp now. Was a little blurry before, but not bad. Excellent now.

Wrote down sets service item settingsfor all the catagories.

Fired up Hcfr. Left Cuts and Drives High alone. Adjusted Cuts and Drives Low. What is med temp, an average of High and Low?

Got it looking a little respectable. Adjusted perfect color for Hd-dvd and Blu-Ray, and HD dvd dvi. That feature is slick. Transfered Hd-dvd component perfect color settings to USDTV tuner just to have something for it.

I tried the mitsu dtv tuner. Today the tv shut off and the green light was blinking while using the mitsu tuner. I thought
NNNOOOOO!!!!! the green blinking of death that I have read about in the forums. Unplugged the set, dison the dtv antenna and hooked up the USDTV tuner. Plugged the set back in and it works. Dont know if the mitsu tuner was the culprit but I'm not using it for now.

Had it on all day still working fine. I'll post my hcfr calibrations in the calibrations forum alittle later.

This is a super set, it looks great even turned off. Nice gloss black and it looks high end. Looks like a big monolith. Can't believe no one makes these anymore. Sad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joikd View Post

I was trying to imagine how the shimming could be done. Does the entire friggin' mass of stuff have to be shimmed, or is there a way to do just the three guns?


I have shimmed my array. I have a similar model 65807. The array is held up on metal platforms along the side, and is secured by screws. You take off the screen and remove the screws from the top. From the bottom, you can lift the array (I thought it would be heavier, but it's not) and place the shims underneath. I bought shims from home depot which are very thin, and 4 inches by 1.5 inches in length. Stacking two shims upright on both sides will do. Then you will need to secure the array with long screws.

The worst part of the job is redoing the geometry. I have to repeat the geomery several times until I finally figures out how to get the horizontal and vertical linearity correct. Contrary to what I first thought, simply getting the lines straight is NOT enough.

Anyway, shimming gives a noticable improvement in overall focus and especially corner focus!

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post #4894 of 13452 Old 02-16-2009, 08:59 PM
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Oh no, we're getting into shimming here. You guys don't think the manufacturers knew what they were doing when they designed the sets? Yeah. they deliberately didn't want to display the best picture they could. What a waste of time and money. You guys do know those guns are 4x3?
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post #4895 of 13452 Old 02-16-2009, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill View Post

Oh no, we're getting into shimming here. You guys don't think the manufacturers knew what they were doing when they designed the sets? Yeah. they deliberately didn't want to display the best picture they could. What a waste of time and money. You guys do know those guns are 4x3?

I'm not sure what you are eluding to. No, just like buying a car, you aren't getting the best performance as is. That's why there is callibration, modification.

As for is it a waste of money- I spent less than 5 bucks on shims and screws, so it cost next to nothing. It was time demanding; and I can understate this- be prepared to spend hours on redoing the geometry. And that's IF you know what you are doing. I thought getting the lines straight was enough, so I obviously did not. I took me several attempts to correct the linearity.

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post #4896 of 13452 Old 02-16-2009, 11:17 PM
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Calibration, yes, the manufacturer can't put the costly time in but why would the design be faulty? Doesn't make any sense. It wouldn't cost the manufacturer a cent to move the guns closer in the design.
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post #4897 of 13452 Old 02-17-2009, 01:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew888 View Post


I cleaned them in the garage using Sprayaway (safe for plastics) and a heavy microfiber polishing cloth. Just when I thought it was clean (being very carefull and making many passes)


I hope those many passes were not on the lenses. My comments about it taking many passes before I'm happy with it apply STRICTLY to the mirror.

I NEVER use "many passes" on the lenses, and never use microfibre cloth on them either, in any of my cleaning ops. Has nowhere near the absorbency I need for the optics cleaning op.


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post #4898 of 13452 Old 02-17-2009, 02:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss4vegita View Post

I have shimmed my array. I have a similar model 65807. The array is held up on metal platforms along the side, and is secured by screws. You take off the screen and remove the screws from the top. From the bottom, you can lift the array (I thought it would be heavier, but it's not) and place the shims underneath. I bought shims from home depot which are very thin, and 4 inches by 1.5 inches in length. Stacking two shims upright on both sides will do. Then you will need to secure the array with long screws.

On mine the array is mounted at a slant, so I could not JUST raise it and then secure it. I had to buy doorstops and set them as wedges and play with the front to back centering for optimum centering up to down of my picture, set the wedges to keep it there, and then install the longer screws/bolts I had to buy that would match the same thread as what came out. Since adding another 3/4" of shim to the original 1.5", the original replacement bolts were then too short, and I have yet to put in longer ones of the same thead, which are extremely hard to find, of that longer length. So my doorstops are still in there, keeping things where they need to be till I find the time to go out and score what I really need, there.

Quote:


The worst part of the job is redoing the geometry. I have to repeat the geomery several times until I finally figures out how to get the horizontal and vertical linearity correct. Contrary to what I first thought, simply getting the lines straight is NOT enough.

You think that's bad. Try reducing your o'scan using JUST the sm! It's a lot farther off and needs more attention than the shimming method does.

Quote:


Anyway, shimming gives a noticable improvement in overall focus and especially corner focus!

You got it. All our thanks to Owen for this mod, I am just the current purveyor of his original idea, which he put out on the net years ago. Wish I'd noticed it then!



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post #4899 of 13452 Old 02-17-2009, 02:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill View Post

Calibration, yes, the manufacturer can't put the costly time in but why would the design be faulty? Doesn't make any sense. It wouldn't cost the manufacturer a cent to move the guns closer in the design.

IMHO the manufacturers knew a lot of errors would show if they did, and didn't want to put the extra time and energy into making sure everything turned out right. Not for Joe Sixpack, anyway. It takes a lot more time to get the entire pic looking right when it's all there and showing, on the screen. LOTS easier to just zoom the pic outward in all directions a bit to not show everything, and thus hide all those edge challenges.

They surely coulda made a series of more expensive set that WAS set up correctly, tho.

They never did. Guess they didn't think anybody would buy it.


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post #4900 of 13452 Old 02-17-2009, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill View Post

Calibration, yes, the manufacturer can't put the costly time in but why would the design be faulty? Doesn't make any sense. It wouldn't cost the manufacturer a cent to move the guns closer in the design.

Not faulty, just not optimized.

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post #4901 of 13452 Old 02-17-2009, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill View Post

Calibration, yes, the manufacturer can't put the costly time in but why would the design be faulty? Doesn't make any sense. It wouldn't cost the manufacturer a cent to move the guns closer in the design.

Have you ever looked a service manual and follow their suggestions on getting a set ready? If you do it their way I'll probably take 1hr to get a set ready...

Just to get grayscale right will take several hours. Now add to do focus right, geometry correct, covergence right, color right and overscan to the minimum.

It is not manufacturing cost, but total production cost, that would include time to get the set ready for the customer.

If they would have been interested in just quality or the best picture, then ALL rear projection TVs will have 9" guns and a true first surface mirror for starters, and that is not to mention the processing of the signal which would have to include a high end scalar/processor, then a 73" would cost $25,000.00. Total production cost!!!

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post #4902 of 13452 Old 02-17-2009, 08:41 AM - Thread Starter
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I would say that they could get the grayscale right without any increase in time or costs - just a different attitude, meaning not trying to outgun each other on the sales floor with making their whites blu-white. Or in the case of Mit, pink-white, as Mit really believes in the color red as the predominance.

Mit coulda delivered linear color decoding the same way, rather than insisting on introducing a red pushed color paradigm on EVERY model of EVERY modey year since before HD came about. Those 2 things are design decisions made by upper management, and would have not taken significantly more to design a different way, nor cost an extra dime to get right on the assembly line.

Getting optical focusing right would not take all that much longer, with better practices. Sony gets it right every time OOB. The increase in production time would be negligible. The convergence is usually right OOB on all CRT tech, but inherently drifts over the first 100 hours, until it stabilizes.

The overscan woulda been a challenge that woulda taken extra time and expertise, so I can see their point on that one.

So there are some ways they coulda saved us a lot of grief for only pennies of their earned dollar, and other ways they have left us to the wolves just because they didn't give a ...hoot... Only certain ways would it have been massivly expensive for them to do things differently.

For the most part, I think they have been aiming strictly at Joe Sixpack for the massive production $ in RPTVs, and have simply left the videophile out of the loop.


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post #4903 of 13452 Old 02-17-2009, 08:44 AM
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Really amazing, I've would have never thought that the concept of shimming a TV would be so heated and controversial as it has become!

To make the concept simple; you bring the projected image closer to the screen, this will make the image smaller. By bringing the image closer there is two major advantages. The built in overscan on RPTV get reduced and the image gets sharper.

With out getting into the actual science of why this happens, if you have any type of projector, overhead, transparencies or any type, try it on the wall. The actual result by bringing the image closet to the wall is exactly that... the image gets smaller and sharper.

If someone with the right credentials would like to explain the scientific facts, go right ahead... but I can tell you first had experimentation if you bring the projected image closer to the screen you get a sharper and smaller image that translate to our RPTV into overscan reduction and better picture.

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post #4904 of 13452 Old 02-17-2009, 10:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Tightens up the pic real good, on ALL CRT RPTV tech, from the increased exposure of the CRT faces to the viewscreen, resulting in truly increased pixel density, and a picture you can sit a lot closer to afterwards.

All credit goes to Owen for this mod, I am only following his lead of several years ago, which I missed at that time. Wish I'd noticed it a lot sooner!

This mod allowed me to sit 20% closer to my screen - from 10' down to 8', expanding my field of view into the content itself a lot more and increasing my perceived picture size by 20%.

Unfortunately some older sets can't have this done because the aging footprint is already too strong on the CRT faces. If yours is an older set and the overscan was already reduced years ago via the sm, you absolutely can't do it now, because of that footprint.

But if your older set has never been o'scan reduced via sm, you may be able to.

[/url]

3 thicknesses of 1x2, glued together and to the floor of the ledge, partially blackened, showing long bolts that replaced the original short ones. Using chimney bolts, were the only ones I could find w. the same thread. Bolt end from underside blackened along with red screwheads

[/url]

2 doorstops, leveling the stack for horizon correctness. IR sensor cage board edge and bolt ends from underside blackened


[/url]

underside

[/url]

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post #4905 of 13452 Old 02-17-2009, 10:22 AM
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Awesome Bob!!!

Thanks for sharing.

"Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid."
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post #4906 of 13452 Old 02-17-2009, 10:38 AM - Thread Starter
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I finally had a little spare time!




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post #4907 of 13452 Old 02-17-2009, 01:37 PM - Thread Starter
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From the Screenshot War thread, about my post here, which I copied over there also -


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell View Post

very nice Bob, this gives you more phosphur usage correct?

man oh I wish CRT RPTV wasn't dead!

-Gary

Yeah, they really didn't optimize what they had to work with when they designed these things. I have yet to see one that wasn't overscanned fairly dramatically (should say horrifically!) OOB, nor one which fully optimized the area of the CRT face used OOB, which yes is what this mod is all about.

On front pj we get to stage the throw distance when the unit is originally set up, and along with making sure there are no angles the beam goes thru while traversing the lens and a half a dozen other things, this one thing can always be optimized as long as we have control over how far away the pj is from the screen, factored in with the size of the image on each CRT face. We also get to aim the red and blue guns mechanically horizontally, for the optimum centering of the image on each of those guns. This also contributes to how much of the CRT face gets to be used.

Not so on CRT RPTV OOB, tho with a little perseverance and a LOT of patience, reigning in that overscan and optimizing the amount of CRT face utilized CAN be done with that genre as well.


As for lamenting the demise of CRT RPTV, I second your emotions on that!



But check this out - CRT RPTV can go on for a long long time, even tho they are not being produced new anymore. CRT that has been well taken care of lasts and lasts and lasts, just like the energizer bunny. On CRT RPTV, properly cared for by their owners I keep them looking better than new for 10 years and more all the time.

Now to the good part - LOTS of CRT RPTVs are being dumped on the used market for pennies on the dollar right now, with Joe Sixpack jumping on the retail bandwagon as he always does, in this case for plasma and LCD flat panel. Which as we all know need to be very expensive to even match what CRT has always been capable of.

EXCELLENT CRT RPTVs can be had for song right now on the used market, just gotta find them before they get snapped up. And via UEC, for refurbed brand new Hitachis, which calibrate up to an absolutely superb picture. If you've seen that fabulous closeup of that gorgeous woman taken by Owen on his tricked out 57" Hitachi CRT - which has the mod above, among others - you know what I mean. Again, gotta get them when they come in at UEC, because they fly right out again, often the same day.

As long as they have not used those sets as the family baby sitter, with it on 16 hours a day or at Torch Mode all the time, and have been careful about screenburn - just take an all white pattern with you to double-check any questions about that - you can scarf an incredible deal on CRT RPTV right now. IMHO, it's the deal of the century, esp. when you can get it cleaned and calibrated - and thus completely restored, often better than new - and have HD like you would not believe!

I started the Don't Dump Your CRT RPTV! thread 2 years ago, and it's still going strong, having passed its 150th page recently. Here on this thread you find afficianados who are dedicated to the really big picture; and to CRT for the most part, as being one of the best ways to get there. Over there you find afficianados who can't afford the really big stuff like you have here, but are just as dedicated to CRT as one of the best video formats ever made, and are willing to trick their sets out beyond measure, to get as close as they possibly can to the best pic available.

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...95922&page=164

I'm still itching to get my hands on Cliff's 65" Mit with the 9" guns!



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post #4908 of 13452 Old 02-17-2009, 08:05 PM
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I wanted to share with everyone some pictures of my optics cleaning I performed on my Pioneer Pro 610. Sorry in advance it's my first attempt at pictures on this forum. First step was to get the protective screen removed with requires the speaker grill to be removed and the small plastic pieces above them. The just pop out with a little tug. Next you have to remove a few screens on each side of the protective screen. See below.



Then from the bottom pull out and up and the screen will come out of the tracks on the top and gently lift up and away so you don't scratch the lentecilar screen.
This is the first picture of the unit with the protective screen removed



Next remove the screws from the sides and loosen the screws on top but leave them in place so the brackets don't fall out which would allow the screen to fall out and forward. Now you can slide the screen to the right to see the guns and mirror.



At first I thought, wow, they aren't really dirty but after I cleaned the first you can see the difference between the left and middle (uncleaned)



Now here is where I have a few questions. The wing nuts on the lenses, is this for the mechanical focus? Second, which piece of wood needs to be removed in order to do the shim modification? Last question, what do I need to disassemble to perform the deep optics cleaning and where can I find more information to do this?



So here are the before and after results. Not as dramatic as I would have liked, thus my questions about how to perform the deep cleaning. Over the past few years I have had to continue to bump up the brightness to about +14 now. Also, any advice on how to use service menu to adjust geometry and convergence would be nice.

Before



After cleaning

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post #4909 of 13452 Old 02-17-2009, 10:54 PM
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I see a big difference. Not sure exactly what you were expecting.
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post #4910 of 13452 Old 02-17-2009, 11:21 PM
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Looks like they changed the design from the earlier non HD models. On my PRO-97 the screens were attached to the faceplate/frame. You removed the whole faceplate and screen stack as an assembly.

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post #4911 of 13452 Old 02-18-2009, 02:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpounders View Post

I wanted to share with everyone some pictures of my optics cleaning I performed on my Pioneer Pro 610. Sorry in advance it's my first attempt at pictures on this forum. First step was to get the protective screen removed with requires the speaker grill to be removed and the small plastic pieces above them. The just pop out with a little tug. Next you have to remove a few screens on each side of the protective screen. See below.



Then from the bottom pull out and up and the screen will come out of the tracks on the top and gently lift up and away so you don't scratch the lentecilar screen.
This is the first picture of the unit with the protective screen removed



Next remove the screws from the sides and loosen the screws on top but leave them in place so the brackets don't fall out which would allow the screen to fall out and forward. Now you can slide the screen to the right to see the guns and mirror.


Be VERY careful when doing it this way, that those side screws stay outa there. Otherwise you'll score your fresnel permanently.


Quote:
At first I thought, wow, they aren't really dirty but after I cleaned the first you can see the difference between the left and middle (uncleaned)



Now here is where I have a few questions. The wing nuts on the lenses, is this for the mechanical focus?

Yes.

I would also blacken all the bare metal in there, along with the labels on the side of the lenses, and anything else in there that would contribute to internal reflections. This will keep your blacks blacker and more transparent, adding depth to your images.

Quote:
Second, which piece of wood needs to be removed in order to do the shim modification? Last question, what do I need to disassemble to perform the deep optics cleaning and where can I find more information to do this?


The piece directly behind the guns, midway between the guns and the rear edge of the set. It's vertically placed, in there, and if left there will impede any movement in the direction you need to go in, to do the shimming op.


Quote:

So here are the before and after results. Not as dramatic as I would have liked, thus my questions about how to perform the deep cleaning. Over the past few years I have had to continue to bump up the brightness to about +14 now. Also, any advice on how to use service menu to adjust geometry and convergence would be nice.

Anyone who wants to do these adj's should simply buy the service manual, the one of the set of 2 that does NOT contain the schematics. It won't cover all the high precision things you pick up with experience, but is not all that expensive, and will be a great guide if you're truly a DIYer. If you want the benefits of my 20+ years of experience and what I've learned from countless calibrations on these units, contact me directly, NOT by pm, please.

Quote:
Before



After cleaning


To do the deep optics cleaning, each lens has to be removed and its rear and the coolant cover under it need to be very carefully cleaned, guarding against any form of scratching any of the add'l 6 surfaces that become involved - and get cleaned - via the deeper optics cleaning. That's why your job is not a breathtaking difference in your before and after shots, tho even the job you have done so far reveals striking differences to me. Only roughly half your optical surfaces have been cleaned so far, of the ones that are dirty right now. When all 10 of them get cleaned and you have a crystal clear light path again, the differences will be double what they are now.

All these units of this series have to be running br at around that setting by now, usually plus 14 or 15. The cure is for the Screen trimpots on the focus block to be reset properly, to give just the right amount of energy to each CRT. They need to be set so that correct threshold is re-achieved, which drifts off over the years, and rebalanced so that you again get the correct color of gray. It's the foundation you build your grayscale on.

Usually by this age on this series when you have your br at +14 - which IS where it has to be pushed up to because of the dimness that has crept in - the blacks result in a very greenish tone of black, not crystal clear black and gunmetal gray like they should be and therefore NOT contributing to your suspension of disbelief, or that of your guests!



b

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post #4912 of 13452 Old 02-18-2009, 04:08 AM
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Sitting here thinking about a few things...would appreciate some input......

1. Using perfect color with my mitsu, I used AVS HD-709 100% color saturations. All I need to do is match the saturation with each slider for each primary and secondaries. Well my primarys stayed basically at 31 but my secondaries went upwards 36-39. Rechecked all the colors again and they all match with their sliders. And using perfect color for primaries and secondaries also sets your tint? Is this right? Kept my tint at 31.

2. To do grayscale for 480p, I'd set my HD-DVD to output 480p resolution thru component.

3. To do grayscale for 480i, I'd use composite out?

4 Does convergence need done for each input or is it global? Only reason I'm asking is with the DTV input the crosshatch was in a different position than Comp 1 and 2.

5. When I measured my grayscale with HCFR I forgot to recheck the brightness 1st after making adjustments, my brightness had to be up'ed to 38
to see the image 17 on AVS HD-dvd. So hopefully my gamma may be more in line. It'll be a few days til I have time.

Well I gotta say that going from 51" to 65" has really increased my appreciation for HDTV and CRT. If you have a smaller set I would say definitely go bigger.

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post #4913 of 13452 Old 02-18-2009, 07:22 AM
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Thanks for the replies Mr. Bob. I'm seriously thinking about hiring you for some phone consultation to walk me through some cleaning and calibrations. Here are my objectives, please let me know feasiblity and approximate time commentment required on my part and your phone consultation. Also, were can I purchase service manual?

As mentioned, I would like to improve the overall brightness and clarity of the image. As I have turned up the br in menu I noticed the image quality has decreased (best to describe it as noise). Also, going from the center to the outside edges the focus gets really poor. I read in another post from you that the shimming mod will help not only the overscan (which I would like to correct) but the focus will be easier to adjust. You also mentioned the trim pots can be adjusted to improve the brightness. I assume those are the joystick looking things on the guns but I don't see one on the red from the pictures.

Here is what I think I need to do in order:

Deep optical cleaning - can you walk me through this on the phone? Approximate time assuming we due one together then I can do the other two. Does it require access from bottom?
Shimming mod - should I do this first? The mechnical part seems simple enough but I could break something and waste time from cleaning job

Here is were the sequence is fuzz to me:
Adjust trim pots for light output? Does this require a greyscale adjustment
Adjust mechnical focus?
Adjust geometry and covergence from service menu? (how much time on the phone for this?)

Adjusting for only the 1080i scan rate is good enough for me, I won't use anything else. After this I think I can use video essentials to adjust the br, contrast, color, tint enough to statisfy my taste. I can also do the other darking of bare surface before I start.

I know my work will not be as good as your job but it will give me some DY statisfaction if I can make some improvements.
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post #4914 of 13452 Old 02-18-2009, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelo M View Post

Sitting here thinking about a few things...would appreciate some input......

1. Using perfect color with my mitsu, I used AVS HD-709 100% color saturations. All I need to do is match the saturation with each slider for each primary and secondaries. Well my primarys stayed basically at 31 but my secondaries went upwards 36-39. Rechecked all the colors again and they all match with their sliders. And using perfect color for primaries and secondaries also sets your tint? Is this right? Kept my tint at 31.

DK your model, but on mine the PC has the secondaries way up. I use the Accupel HDG 3000, but it was not sufficient to get everything to check out via its test patterns, and the labeling on the PC is anything but self-evident. I had to make a chart out for myself to reveal what they REALLY do, and follow that. My eyes were a strong part of setting my sm color and tint, because the blue iso test just wasn't cutting it.


Quote:
2. To do grayscale for 480p, I'd set my HD-DVD to output 480p resolution thru component.

Yes


Quote:
3. To do grayscale for 480i, I'd use composite out?

No. S video, which is pure luminance and chrominance. Composite has analog electronic interpretations involved, which S does not. S is a lot more pure than composite, and composite is only good for standard VCRs anymore, or older digital Comcast boxes, where they didn't even equip them with S.
Quote:
4 Does convergence need done for each input or is it global? Only reason I'm asking is with the DTV input the crosshatch was in a different position than Comp 1 and 2.

The positioning can prolly be altered in the Misc menu for the DTV, which is punching the number 6 rather than the usual 5 or 4. 480 is 480 on conv, whether i or p.

Geo/conv is either 480i/p or 1080i, each with its own memory bank. There is no separate conv menu for DTV that I know of, tho I have never needed to find out on that one. Do some tests and let us know. There may be different HSTA and VSTA settings for DTV, again I have never needed to know on that one.

That said, DTV is the only IP that allows for 1080i. Comp 1 and 2 are limited to a max of 480p. Sizing and positioning - and geo/convergence - are done by the scanrate, not by the input. 1080i is 1080i, no matter what the input, if your set allows for 1080i across several inputs.

On these Mit's, the DTV is the only IP that allows for HD, and yes is a different memory bank completely from the 480 of Comp 1 and 2. So will have different settings at the getgo.

Remember, whenever you're in the conv sm, any changes you make get stored AUTOMATICALLY as soon as you leave the sm. DON'T make any changes you don't want to get memorized! Write them down first if necessary, esp. in the 6 Misc sm.

Quote:
5. When I measured my grayscale with HCFR I forgot to recheck the brightness 1st after making adjustments, my brightness had to be up'ed to 38
to see the image 17 on AVS HD-dvd. So hopefully my gamma may be more in line. It'll be a few days til I have time.

Well I gotta say that going from 51" to 65" has really increased my appreciation for HDTV and CRT. If you have a smaller set I would say definitely go bigger.


My br has to go no lower than 40 on mine, I usually run it at between 41-45, but it sometimes needs to go up to 47 or 48 depending on content.

Mine will NOT run fine at the mp of 31! Tried every way possible to calibrate it to do that, to no avail. I set the sm br at anything else, and the black floor just isn't right. Gotta leave the OOB sm br setting completely alone on my model.

Yeah, once you go bigger on CRT RPTV, you never go back! For starters the lenses alone dictate that, because the smaller units use less expensive lenses that are inferior to the ones used on the larger units.

But in general, bigger is just better, with CRT RPTV, all around. It's just a much more satisfying experience than smaller.


b

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post #4915 of 13452 Old 02-18-2009, 10:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpounders View Post

Thanks for the replies Mr. Bob. I'm seriously thinking about hiring you for some phone consultation to walk me through some cleaning and calibrations. Here are my objectives, please let me know feasiblity and approximate time commentment required on my part and your phone consultation. Also, were can I purchase service manual?

As mentioned, I would like to improve the overall brightness and clarity of the image. As I have turned up the br in menu I noticed the image quality has decreased (best to describe it as noise). Also, going from the center to the outside edges the focus gets really poor. I read in another post from you that the shimming mod will help not only the overscan (which I would like to correct) but the focus will be easier to adjust. You also mentioned the trim pots can be adjusted to improve the brightness. I assume those are the joystick looking things on the guns but I don't see one on the red from the pictures.

Here is what I think I need to do in order:

Deep optical cleaning - can you walk me through this on the phone? Approximate time assuming we due one together then I can do the other two. Does it require access from bottom?
Shimming mod - should I do this first? The mechnical part seems simple enough but I could break something and waste time from cleaning job

Here is were the sequence is fuzz to me:
Adjust trim pots for light output? Does this require a greyscale adjustment
Adjust mechnical focus?
Adjust geometry and covergence from service menu? (how much time on the phone for this?)

Adjusting for only the 1080i scan rate is good enough for me, I won't use anything else. After this I think I can use video essentials to adjust the br, contrast, color, tint enough to statisfy my taste. I can also do the other darking of bare surface before I start.

I know my work will not be as good as your job but it will give me some DY statisfaction if I can make some improvements.

Most of your questions have fine shadings that need to be taken into account, depending on a number of factors. We'll start with an hour and go from there, see how much you and I can get done in an hour. Usually a lot, I can impart a huge amount of data to you in just a few minutes, and you're free to record it for future reference.

But different people have different learning curves and absorb what I say quicker than others, so there's no way for me to tell you right now what kind of timeframe will be involved. What I can tell you is that my talking style doesn't differ any from my writing style, and you see my writing style here every day. And it takes a whole lot longer to type than to talk. In talking we breeze thru stuff that takes awhile to read - and even more time to type - here.

Contact me directly, please. NOT by pm -


b

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post #4916 of 13452 Old 02-18-2009, 10:54 AM
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Screen and electronic VR focus trimpots located behind the front panel. You should consult Mr Bob before you touch screen trimpots! SM warns not to touch screen trimpots.
You need to cover those white wires with electric tape or paint them over with black sharpie.

One of four screws to be removed to do deep optics cleaning. Don't touch other screws on horizontal planes as you'll have coolant all over. Once removed, cleaned and reinstalled you'll have to do some geometry and convergence work. You'll want to do one at a time and allign it with the other 2 guns. Once again consult Mr Bob before you do any of this. It probably wouldn't hurt to cover the gap with electric tape to prevent dust getting in there to avoid deep optics cleaning in the future.
SM can be purchased here. There are other places where SM can be purchased from (example).
The one you need is either ARP3051 or ARP3086. You may want to check with other 5/6/710HD owners.
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post #4917 of 13452 Old 02-18-2009, 12:12 PM
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Mr. Bob,
Thanks for the your reply of post #4914.

Angelo
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post #4918 of 13452 Old 02-18-2009, 03:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelo M View Post

Mr. Bob,
Thanks for the your reply of post #4914.




b

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post #4919 of 13452 Old 02-18-2009, 05:55 PM
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There is a link to my original post on the shimming concept. At the time it was pretty much ignored, I suspect that the idea of modifying a then new or near new HDTV was just too much to contemplate so know one wanted to go there. Almost 5 years on things have changed and many more people are willing to have a go, probably because the financial risk is now minimal. Better late then never.


http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/...frame+overscan

Here is a link to a more recent post with pictures of my Hitachi.

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post14085492

I posted some mods for the SXRD 18 months ago and got a similar lackluster response from owners obviously too scared to hack into a new TV. Some people even went so far as to suggest my mods where of no value without ever having seen a modified set. I suppose its human nature to dismiss ideas that you are unwilling to pursue, but it’s a disappointing attitude IMHO.

I modify TV’s for my own benefit not for accolades on this forum; I simply post the results of my work so that others may benefit.

Good luck with the shimming mod, an effective lens shield is worth exploring as well.
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post #4920 of 13452 Old 02-18-2009, 06:20 PM
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About 3-years ago, I raised the CRTs in my Mits 65813. I would have liked to raise them a few inches to improve performance, however, this would probably require me to move the Red and Blue closer to the Green, then change the aiming. Too much work and no time for the project. I was quite disturbed with the small image footprint on the tube face, mostly (IMO) limited by the CRT positioning. If they were only like the CRT projectors. IIRC, the image was using less than 90% of the tube real estate. This along with the excessive overscan was quite disappointing.

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