Official Epson Home Cinema 8500UB thread! - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 486 Old 11-17-2009, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carter9000 View Post

Thanks --- got it!

Wonder why they did not include that in the specs at projector central.....

So....my questions is though, when showing the content at 96hz 1) does that conversion process introduce additional artifacts 2) The "judder" that it eliminating - is that inherent in the source material --- is it eliminating judder that was in the film print that was shown at the theater?

My concern is I want my image to look however it looked in the theater...if the film had judder in the theater, then I want it that way on my system at home. Not sure if I am making sense.

I guess I am just leary because it doesn't say 24p. Perhaps it is better than 24p. But sometimes better can be in the eye of the beholder. Like some of the "color enhancers" or CFI (creative frame interpolation). These tools creatively interpret the source material. I want the closest I can get to the source material. I guess I am not sure, because I don't understand what the difference is between 24hz and 96hz. Is it just showing each individual frame 4 times or is it interpreting in-between frames?

Here are the direct answers, if you want the explanation why, read below.

1) No, Creative frame interpolation (sometimes called frame interpolation) is one of the reason why video can have artifacts. Duplication of frames or 5:5, 4:4, 2:2, etc. pulldown does not.

2) Judder is generally what is introduced when you perform a 3:2 pulldown. (Making 24fps content 60fps). Blu-Rays properly mastered at 24fps won't have any judder. Theaters won't have judder, you don't want it either.

So in short, at 96hz, 4:4 pulldown would happen, resulting in the exact same image as a 24hz projector. CFI causes the soap opera effect, artifacts, and in my opinion a very "juddery" image. I love 96hz/120hz components because my 24fps content can be displayed properly and not have to go through a 3:2 pulldown which introduces judder (Used for 60hz LCD tvs). I hate CFI, it not only messes with the directors intent, but the current software turns films into a jumpy mess.


Components that can properly display 24p content (no 3:2 pull down to get it to 60hz, the "old" standard refresh rate) almost always do a 5:5 pull down because 120hz is the most common refresh rate at the moment 5 x 24 = 120). The reason why 120hz tv exist is that 120 happens to be the least common denominator of 24, 30, and 60 (All standard video refresh rates). Check it out though, to get 24p content on a 120hz tv you have to show each frame 5 times. (5:5 pulldown) So take how long each frame is shown at any given time (5/120 frames) and it breaks down to 1/24th of a second. The exact same percentage if you watched a movie on a 24hz projector. Each frame would be on the screen for 1/24th of a second. The point? If the projector is doing a 5:5 pulldown or a 4:4 pulldown or a 2:2 pulldown each frame is being displayed for the exact same length of time. Faster refresh rate, but each frame is being displayed longer to equal everything out. Sorry if that doesn't make sense, I still haven't found the perfect way to explain it.

That part is easy though, the confusion is happening because of the introduction of creative frame interpolation. Basically software created frames that are displayed instead of the exact same frame repeated some amount of times. (5 times for 120hz, 4 times for 96hz) The software looks at two frames in a row (different frames, not two of the duplicated ones) and makes a guess at what the image would be in between the two. THIS and ONLY THIS is what causes the soap opera effect and in my opinion a very jumpy image!

But it looks like you were on the right track, there is a huge difference between creative frames and the standard frame pulldown process. CFI = Bad, Pulldown a necessity and good. Let me know if this doesn't make sense.
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post #62 of 486 Old 11-17-2009, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackattack51 View Post

Here are the direct answers, if you want the explanation why, read below.

1) No, Creative frame interpolation (sometimes called frame interpolation) is one of the reason why video can have artifacts. Duplication of frames or 5:5, 4:4, 2:2, etc. pulldown does not.

2) Judder is generally what is introduced when you perform a 3:2 pulldown. (Making 24fps content 60fps). Blu-Rays properly mastered at 24fps won't have any judder. Theaters won't have judder, you don't want it either.

So in short, at 96hz, 4:4 pulldown would happen, resulting in the exact same image as a 24hz projector. CFI causes the soap opera effect, artifacts, and in my opinion a very "juddery" image. I love 96hz/120hz components because my 24fps content can be displayed properly and not have to go through a 3:2 pulldown which introduces judder (Used for 60hz LCD tvs). I hate CFI, it not only messes with the directors intent, but the current software turns films into a jumpy mess.


Components that can properly display 24p content (no 3:2 pull down to get it to 60hz, the "old" standard refresh rate) almost always do a 5:5 pull down because 120hz is the most common refresh rate at the moment 5 x 24 = 120). The reason why 120hz tv exist is that 120 happens to be the least common denominator of 24, 30, and 60 (All standard video refresh rates). Check it out though, to get 24p content on a 120hz tv you have to show each frame 5 times. (5:5 pulldown) So take how long each frame is shown at any given time (5/120 frames) and it breaks down to 1/24th of a second. The exact same percentage if you watched a movie on a 24hz projector. Each frame would be on the screen for 1/24th of a second. The point? If the projector is doing a 5:5 pulldown or a 4:4 pulldown or a 2:2 pulldown each frame is being displayed for the exact same length of time. Faster refresh rate, but each frame is being displayed longer to equal everything out. Sorry if that doesn't make sense, I still haven't found the perfect way to explain it.

That part is easy though, the confusion is happening because of the introduction of creative frame interpolation. Basically software created frames that are displayed instead of the exact same frame repeated some amount of times. (5 times for 120hz, 4 times for 96hz) The software looks at two frames in a row (different frames, not two of the duplicated ones) and makes a guess at what the image would be in between the two. THIS and ONLY THIS is what causes the soap opera effect and in my opinion a very jumpy image!

But it looks like you were on the right track, there is a huge difference between creative frames and the standard frame pulldown process. CFI = Bad, Pulldown a necessity and good. Let me know if this doesn't make sense.

Everyone to their own opinion. I completely disagree with the opinions expressed above. I won't, let me repeat, I won't purchase another projector that doesn't have a good frame interpolation system! I've seen it, use it and love it - not for everything, but for animation and music concerts it has got to be available.
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post #63 of 486 Old 11-17-2009, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itennis View Post

I have 3 questions!
1.) How will this projector perform on a 135" white 1.1 gain screen? The room will be dark. Here is a link to the screen I'm thinking of getting: VApex Screen
2.) What is the optimal throw distance for that size (135" screen)? I have calculated it myself but it seems like the throw distance range is too big. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will answer my questions.
3.) Will I lose quality in the picture if I go with a 135" as opposed to, let's say a 100"?
My my experience with overhead projectors in classrooms. It seems the further the projector was pulled back, the bigger the image got but decreased in image quality (brightness, contrast, etc). Is that true for this projector?
Thanks

1) Well that's up for you to decide, but if you want my best guess, not as good as it could be. I wouldn't go above 120" on a low gain screen and really I would prefer a 110". If you want to go larger, look into a higher gain screen, but be aware the higher gain you go, the narrower the viewing cone will be and hot spots begin to show up.

2) The closer the better! The 8500UB is pretty decent in brightness in its best mode, amazing in it's brightest mode, but for 135" you need all the lumens you can get. Basically the farther you go, the less bright the image will be on the screen. It looks like 13' 5" is the closest you can get to project a 135" screen. Every projector will be different though.

3) Anytime you go larger you will lose quality, the first hit will be brightness, the second will be taking a compressed image and blowing it up. The second half of the problem won't show itself if you are watching blu-ray, though you'll probably notice a difference if you are watching a DVD. So if all the content you will be watching is HD, you'll be cool, if not, you may want to consider a smaller size.
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post #64 of 486 Old 11-17-2009, 09:02 PM
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thanks for your answers guys. i would take pottscb's advice and test the projector before buying a screen, unfortunately i have to buy the screen and projector at the same time to get a discount. so now i'm leaning towards going smaller since i don't want a dim image on a 135".
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post #65 of 486 Old 11-18-2009, 12:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carter9000 View Post

Ed_T,

Well, at night it will be black out conditions with dark walls and dark ceiling above the screen. 95% of movie viewing will be under these conditions. The ambient light situation is for casual TV watching and sports during the day. Overall that would only amount to about 25% of my total viewing time on the projector. Even then, I am considering getting some blackout shades which should reduce light greatly when I need to.

It's so frustrating....One minute I think I will get the Epson, the next I am almost sure I will get the Sony. Then I go back to the Panasonic AE4000 and back again to the Epson. Problem solved if I could see these projectors for myself in dark conditions. I mean, projectors are now pretty popular items. Why isn't anyone properly demonstrating them? I guess it is too time consuming and takes up too much space.

Sounds like you have a very good viewing environment. You can't go wrong with any one of the projectors. They each have different strengths. Given that AE4000 and 8500 can achieve 1300+ lumen in dynamic mode. You may want to choose them over the HW15 for your 25% viewing w/ ambient light. If your viewing environment is dusty then the HW15 may be better suit since it has the sealed light path.
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post #66 of 486 Old 11-18-2009, 02:27 AM
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Thanks all (Nightanole, ed_T, and Jackattack51)! The explanation of the frame rate makes sense. I was getting it confused with Creative Frame Interpolation.


I think I have narrowed it down to 2 projectors - The Epson or the Panasonic. This purchase is kind of an in-between projector for me. I think down the rode I will really want to splurge and get something along the lines of the JVC RS25 or whatever the equivalent projector in the future will be. For now, I think keeping it cheaper is better. The Sony is about $1000 more than the others and I am sure the Epson and Panasonic are comparable. So, I am in the final stretch on my decision.
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post #67 of 486 Old 11-18-2009, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carter9000 View Post

I think I have narrowed it down to 2 projectors - The Epson or the Panasonic. .

You and five thousand other people..

Seriously though, I think it's a win win situation for the consumer as these projectors are getting better and cheaper..
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post #68 of 486 Old 11-18-2009, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carter9000 View Post

Thanks all (Nightanole, ed_T, and Jackattack51)! The explanation of the frame rate makes sense. I was getting it confused with Creative Frame Interpolation.


I think I have narrowed it down to 2 projectors - The Epson or the Panasonic. This purchase is kind of an in-between projector for me. I think down the rode I will really want to splurge and get something along the lines of the JVC RS25 or whatever the equivalent projector in the future will be. For now, I think keeping it cheaper is better. The Sony is about $1000 more than the others and I am sure the Epson and Panasonic are comparable. So, I am in the final stretch on my decision.

I'm glad we could help! You've also made a great decision in terms of projectors, I can almost guarantee you are going to be extremely happy with either. I pre-ordered the 8500UB today through AVS and can not wait for it to arrive. Good luck getting yours!
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post #69 of 486 Old 11-18-2009, 07:22 PM
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go with the bigger screen, you will thank yourself latter.
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post #70 of 486 Old 11-19-2009, 07:10 PM
 
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With all the buzz. Can't wait to see Jason's review. Seeing is everything. We'll possibly have our hands on one next week. Keep your fingers crossed.
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post #71 of 486 Old 11-19-2009, 07:44 PM
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rebate forms are up at various retailers, and I'm seeing it listed at more mainstream retailers, it's got to be coming soon... I'm not very patient...
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post #72 of 486 Old 11-20-2009, 10:32 AM
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projector people ETA Nov. 30 looks like we wont be getting it before thanksgiving
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post #73 of 486 Old 11-21-2009, 11:10 AM
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If the 8500UB is better than my 7500UB then this is going to be one stinking hot projector! I can't believe how good projectors like the Epsons and Panasonics are now. I am seriously tempted to sell my G90 while it still has some value.
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post #74 of 486 Old 11-23-2009, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liverpool View Post

projector people ETA Nov. 30 looks like we wont be getting it before thanksgiving


Visual Apex site says the 25th, better, but still not before Thanksgiving
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post #75 of 486 Old 11-23-2009, 01:41 PM
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Note -- This is a repeat post that I put in the other 8500UB forum -- in case some folks monitor only this one.

I have been wrestling with where (and when) to order this unit from. I strongly considered ordering from Jason at AVS - I certainly DO want to support the forums!! But the potential complexities of warranty issues concerned me a bit.

I reviewed a few or the preorder deals available in Canada. Some Canadians here have correctly stated that the price we're seeing in the great white north is more or less equal to the exchange rate, which makes buying this unit in Canada an easy decision.

I have since obtained a price from the custom installer from whom I bought my Cinema 550 as well as my Da-Lite Cinema Contour, 3 or 4 years ago. He has served me extremely well, so I trust him. His price surprised me! I pulled the trigger and gave a deposit.

I don't want to break any forum rules here -- but if you're in Canada and are looking at where to buy, PM me and I'll give you his contact information. I know he's a solid member of this forum, and I've seen him referenced as a solid and reputable guy. He's extremely knowledgeable about everything AV. He mostly deals in gear that is out of my range (understandably a big proponent of the JVC PJ line-up), but he has lots of experience with Epson, and his early prognosis of the 8500 is that it has resolved some of the issues that existed with the 6500. Though note that I don't know what those were

If this post breaks any rules, I'd ask a forum moderator to let me know, and accept my apologies.

It's gonna be a fun holiday season!

Cheers!
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post #76 of 486 Old 11-24-2009, 11:42 AM
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Do I go with the 8500ub, or save 1000 bucks and go with the 8100? Hmmm, decisions decisions. I'll have 2500 to play with, but I need a reg tv and a screen also.
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post #77 of 486 Old 11-24-2009, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrTAPOUT View Post

Do I go with the 8500ub, or save 1000 bucks and go with the 8100? Hmmm, decisions decisions. I'll have 2500 to play with, but I need a reg tv and a screen also.

Same boat here. If I could have gotten to Best Buy yesterday for the 8100 deal, I would have snatched one up and the decision would have been made for me.
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post #78 of 486 Old 11-25-2009, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by mickolu View Post

Visual Apex site says the 25th, better, but still not before Thanksgiving

They are now the 30th for shipment also
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post #79 of 486 Old 11-25-2009, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrTAPOUT View Post

Do I go with the 8500ub, or save 1000 bucks and go with the 8100? Hmmm, decisions decisions. I'll have 2500 to play with, but I need a reg tv and a screen also.

Have you looked at the panny it is more than the 8100 but cheaper than the 8500 in some areas it outperforms the 8500 (most areas except brightness)?

Not to make your decision more complicated.
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post #80 of 486 Old 12-03-2009, 12:33 AM
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Has anybody got their 8500ub yet? Seems that they have been shipping for a day or two now.

I am looking for first impressions. I just ordered one. I choose it over the Panny 4000. From what I have read in reviews, I think I would be slightly happier with the Panny's picture. However, when I look at bulb life, brightness in ambient light, customer service (24-48 hour projector replacement), no 2000 hour cap on warranty, slightly deeper blacks, vs. a slightly more film like image and lots of cool features that I might only use out of novelty; I went with the Ebson. (have to admit the built in waveform monitor and split screen adjustment is really cool and I would have used them.)

Before the flames come in, yes I went a different route and originally bought a previous gen 720P reference projector, a Sammy 710ae. Other than a sacrifice in black level the image was fantastic. It bested my crt in everyway but black level Shadow detail and color was amazing. Colors were natural but still popped with a lot of 3D feel. I would have happily stayed with this, but the projector developed a "Lock up" issue after a couple of days. So it is going back for a refund. I guess it was hit or miss on getting a lemon with these 710's.

Hopefully I will have my 8500 soon and will report on my impression. I find it somewhat poetic that I am lowering a Marquee 8500 CRT and raising another 8500 in its place, albeit it be a different technology and brand

Jay
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post #81 of 486 Old 12-03-2009, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Avax View Post

(have to admit the built in waveform monitor and split screen adjustment is really cool and I would have used them.)

The 8500UB has a split screen (demo mode) for CFI.

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post #82 of 486 Old 12-03-2009, 12:59 PM
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I purchased the 135" fixed screen/Epson 8100 combo deal about month ago and couldn't be happier with my setup. Projecting from a stand about 13' from 135" screen. Standard DVD's look great too playing from PS3.

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post #83 of 486 Old 12-04-2009, 01:54 AM
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Were any of you following the "Epson 8500UB 200,000:1 CR" thread over in the >3K forums? I can't find it, it was a very active thread, but now it's gone.
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post #84 of 486 Old 12-04-2009, 02:01 AM
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The Epson 8500 thread is temporarily off line and should be back up soon. Doesn't say why. Maybe AVS will finally combine the Epson 8500 threads and put them in one place. Hopefully in the under $3000 category as that is where it belongs.
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post #85 of 486 Old 12-04-2009, 08:40 AM
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The Epson 8500 thread is temporarily off line and should be back up soon. Doesn't say why. Maybe AVS will finally combine the Epson 8500 threads and put them in one place. Hopefully in the under $3000 category as that is where it belongs.

Since the 8500UBs are finally starting to ship, I can't believe they would remove such an active thread without any explanation. I have one on order from AVS, like many here do, and was very interested in new owners opinions.

Are we now not allowed to discuss this PJ?

Art
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post #86 of 486 Old 12-04-2009, 09:32 AM
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As the MSRP is $2499 the thread is in the wrong forum. They are probably joining that thread to this thread.
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post #87 of 486 Old 12-04-2009, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liverpool View Post

As the MSRP is $2499 the thread is in the wrong forum. They are probably joining that thread to this thread.

Could be, but why not just state that? Now there is just a locked thread saying the thread is offline and will be back soon. That was at 9pm last night. The PJ just starts shipping, and the thread is removed. What are we supposed to think?

Art
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post #88 of 486 Old 12-04-2009, 10:18 AM
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FYI - For those of you awaiting shipment - I got a UPS tracking number from PP for my 8500 this morning. Scheduled to arrive Monday. WHOO HOOOOO!!!!!!

No trees were killed for the production of this message. However, millions of electrons were seriously inconvenienced.
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post #89 of 486 Old 12-04-2009, 10:51 AM
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After the panasonic canada/QA fiasco, I'm now on a pre-order list for the 8500UB. Can't wait! Will hopefully get it in the next couple of weeks.

Btw, how was its predecessor with dust blobs? Did it have a sealed design? Where i am now is kinda dusty and i might just leave it in its box until after I move..
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post #90 of 486 Old 12-05-2009, 09:49 AM
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Bump.
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