AVS Forum banner

Optoma HD25 and HD25-LV owners

35K views 135 replies 66 participants last post by  JediFonger 
#1 ·
Just got the HD25-LV and found out that the brightness drops significantly in 3D mode. Plus I have massive crosstalk in the green channel. I'll try a full reset to try to get rid of that but the brightness is an issue.

A call to Optoma and they confirm that the brightness will drop in 3D but will be brighter in 2D. So what's the point of buying a brighter 3D projector if it doesn't use the extra brightness for 3D?

They also said they know nothing about this PJ since it is so new and had no idea about the crosstalk.


Another issue is when you go to adjust contrast or brightness, the displayed sliders are so bright that they interfere with the adjustment, especially when using a calibration disk.

Also in 3D the lamp does not brighten, you have to go into the lamp menu to set it to bright then back into it to return to eco mode for 2d viewing.

BrilliantColor drastically changes the white balance.


On the plus side, it doesn't clip the primaries like my HD33.


td
 
See less See more
#52 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by tucsondave  /t/1473160/optoma-hd25-and-hd25-lv-owners#post_23335579


I don't know about the HD25 but here's a comparison with the HD33.

Here's what I found using a light meter on a 100% white patch from the Spears & Munsil 2nd edition disk. Rough conversion to foot candles at 13 feet from lens. Not measured through glasses. Eco mode on both.

Mode:................. 2D .................. 3D


HD33.................11 fc ................10 fc


HD25-LV............ 23 fc................13 fc

td
Anyone know why Optoma drops the brightness in 3D on these projectors as it seems so counter-intuitive due to light loss through glasses??? My Optoma GT750 does not drop in 3D mode and I can get 2000+ lumens. Optoma should at least provide the option to keep brightness levels in 3D mode for these models.
 
#54 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by tucsondave  /t/1473160/optoma-hd25-and-hd25-lv-owners#post_23326602


A call to Optoma and they confirm that the brightness will drop in 3D but will be brighter in 2D. So what's the point of buying a brighter 3D projector if it doesn't use the extra brightness for 3D?

They also said they know nothing about this PJ since it is so new and had no idea about the crosstalk.
Simple explanation.

They need to add a black frame while waiting for the LCD shutters on the shutter glasses to switch eyes.

This black frame during eye-switch makes an dramatic improvement in crosstalk. (unless the projector has a bug)


So average 3D brightness will always be dimmer than 2D, on all projectors, yesterday, today, and the future -- if you're using LCD shutter glasses. LCD shutters don't instantly open/close. You must use a black frame during the shutter switch interval to eliminate crosstalk. That's how it works with nVidia 3D Vision 2 monitors -- they turn off the backlight while the shutter glasses are switching eyes, too.
 
#55 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon  /t/1473160/optoma-hd25-and-hd25-lv-owners/30#post_23541144

Simple explanation.

They need to add a black frame while waiting for the LCD shutters on the shutter glasses to switch eyes.

This black frame during eye-switch makes an dramatic improvement in crosstalk. (unless the projector has a bug)


So average 3D brightness will always be dimmer than 2D, on all projectors, yesterday, today, and the future -- if you're using LCD shutter glasses. LCD shutters don't instantly open/close. You must use a black frame during the shutter switch interval to eliminate crosstalk. That's how it works with nVidia 3D Vision 2 monitors -- they turn off the backlight while the shutter glasses are switching eyes, too.
These Optomas are DLP refreshing at 120hz (60 hz per left/right images) and no black frame. LCD display panels (240hz and above) are the only ones I think that use black frame insertion due to response time limitation of that technology (which has gotten better.) LCD glasses' shutters transition under 2-4ms total (darken time like .5ms with rise time 3.5ms or so.) Some are even faster. And yes you do loose light to your eye through the glasses but we're talking output of the projector.
 
#56 ·
I am looking for a little advice. I recently ordered the HD25-LV. I will be using this in a light controlled home theatre and plan on using a Dragonfly 120" screen.


I was wondering though about my setup regarding the screen type. I can go with a high contrast screen of .9 gain or a matte white screen of 1.2 gain. I was told by someone locally that sine the HD25-LV has enough lumens the high contrast should work and leave me with better black levels/contrast all around. he said there is potential for washing out if I use too high of gain screen with too many lumens.


High Contrast
http://www.snapav.com/p-351-df-sl-120-hc.aspx


vs


Matte White
http://www.snapav.com/p-353-df-sl-120-mw.aspx


Thoughts?
 
#57 ·
Getting ready to buy a couple sets of 3D glasses for my hd25. I know the DLP Link is @144hz.

The DLP Link ZD301 glasses say Frame Rate 96hz/100hz/120hz/144hz and the BG-ZF2100gls say Multi-frequency 48/96, 50/100, 60/120, 240 Hz.

So with the RF glasses and the Optoma RF Emitter is the rate going to be 144hz? Or is that only if using the DLP link glasses?

Thanks.
 
#60 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by derek  /t/1473160/optoma-hd25-and-hd25-lv-owners/30#post_23552948


And yes you do loose light to your eye through the glasses but we're talking output of the projector.
I'm talking specifically about LCD shutter glasses. Some DLP projectors have used LCD shutter glasses and you still need a black frame (doesn't have to be symmetrically the same size as visible frame). Basically, a black frame of about 0.5 milliseconds to accomodate the LCD shutter open/close time. That said, the longer you wait for the shutter to close, the more closed it is (more opaque), so there's favour in waiting a bit longer. The opaqueness of LCD shutters increases roughly logarithmically versus time and plateaus out gradually, 0.5ms is not necessarily the "fully closed" LCD shutter point, at least for many models of LCD shutter glasses. High speed video of LCD shutter glasses shows that an LCD shutter is only about ~90% opaque after 1ms, that still produces 10% crosstalk. There's a crosstalk-versus-brightness tradeoff. Shorter black frame, more crosstalk. Longer black frame, less crosstalk. Law of physics. Doesn't matter what projector technology, if you're using LCD shutter glasses.


(I actually have some old high speed video footage, which I should be posting. Some readers here are already familiar with my high-speed video of LightBoost , but I also captured some high speed video of LCD shutter glasses too (not currently published yet). The ones I have, nVidia 3D glasses, do NOT fully reach >99%+ opacity in 0.5ms. It does mostly go opaque in less than a millisecond, but then gradually becomes more and more opaque as the microseconds tick by, in essentially what resembles like an approximate logarithmic curve... the less opaque, the more crosstalk will occur. If you are only 95% opaque, you will have 5% crosstalk leaking through -- e.g. light gray showing through a white-black vertical edge boundary, etc). Rating of LCD response is often measured to a certain completeness, otherwise, a lot of 2ms LCD's would measure more than 5ms, etc. To minimize crosstalk, you need to choose a "picky" completeness requirement -- that 0.5ms LCD can become a 2ms LCD when you're measuring to, say, 99.5% completeness of transition (0.5% crosstalk leakage), instead of a 95% completeness (5% crosstalk leakage), etc. Voila. Bigger black frame obviously needed.


There are faster LCD shutters that claim 0.1ms open-to-close speed, but I'd really love to see that "light leakage curve" at the microsecond scale. Is it truly all the way to 99.5%+ opaque in 0.1ms? (even 0.5% is still visible crosstalk). It's wholly possible the projector manufacturer decided to add a bigger black frame interval anyway (0.5ms of black frame and get about ~8% dimming relative to 8.3ms (1/120sec) refresh cycle, or 2ms of black frame, and get about ~33% dimming (relative to 8.3ms refresh cycle). Since 99% opacity vs 99.5% opacity is a MASSIVE difference in crosstalk (twice as much crosstalk -- leakage of 0.5 IRE on a full-white, versus leakage of 1.0 IRE on a full-white). I'd love to see the high speed video footage of what is happening on the projector screen...


For *LCD shutters*

....more black interval during eye swap interval (shutter open/close), less crosstalk.

....less black interval during eye swap interval (shutter open/close), more crosstalk

....It's the law of physics

....and it shows in high speed 1000fps video footage (of high speed camera pointed through a shutter glasses).


This does not apply to polarized 3D glasses, which some DLP projectors are using (e.g. alternating polarization). For that, you don't have the concept of shutter open/close time.
 
#63 ·
I contacted this place http://www.audiogeneral.com/Optoma/home_theater.php about the Optoma HD25e (probably my next projector) as they show them on their site at a sale price. If interested they told me If ordered from them Optoma will drop ship until stock comes in. Never dealt with these people but the few reviews I found are favorable. Return policy is only 5 days with a restocking fee.
 
#65 ·
I would not recommend the cheap DLP 3d glasses for the HD25-LV. Reports of the SainSonic Rainbow Series Black 144 Hz 3D Active Rechargeable Shutter Glasses "working great" are greatly exaggerated. I don't know how people can say they work great when the picture has a fog over it. It's not a fault of the glasses, the glasses work decently well and do provide a 3d image. It's a fault of the DLP Link technology. It's a cheap knockoff of actual decent 3d tech. It enables the stereoscopic view but sacrifices clarity. It the difference between being in awe of a scene in the middle of a movie and being moved to tears and just being a casual observer through a film. Not a fair trade off. Save yourselves the wasted time and buy a good set of RF glasses and call it a day. Another thing I noticed about this projector is that calibration is essential. This projector looks great once you dial it in but that sweet spot is very hard to find. The rumors of bad optics are true. There is no "sharp" to this projector. You either have a sharp half or quarter or you have a semi-sharp full picture. Acceptable quality but deserving of accepting the reality of it. When all is said and done this projector is great and offers a picture much larger and much more pleasant than large LCD TV's. Great investment if you put the time and effort into setting it up just right. Another issue is the rainbow effect. I've owned 2 previous Infocus DLP projectors from the past 10 years and neither of them have the rainbow artifacts that this projector does. While not a deal breaker it is noticeable and may be a serious thorn in the side of some people.

If you guys would like my settings I would be happy to post them when I get a chance to get back to the projector but I don't know how much good they would do you considering that all screens are different and all lighting conditions are different.
 
#67 ·
Wonder what is going on with the HD25, I ordered one on July 20th and haven't received it yet. The place I ordered from has informed me it is on back order and they don't know when it will be in. I see another site says it is discontinued and that the replacement is the hd25e. Any thoughts on which is better or if they perform about the same?
 
#68 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by thextreme1  /t/1473160/optoma-hd25-and-hd25-lv-owners/30#post_23522073


So, my thoughts on the projector as compared to the HD 33:


I was watching the HD 33 right before the HD 25 LV arrived. With the picture brightness and quality in mind, fresh from seconds before. I saw quite a difference in brightness about 1 3/4 of what the HD 33 output. I measured my HD 33 at 933 lm, this projector measures in at about 1750 lm. That is in 2-D, in film mode On 120 inch 1.3 gain screen Surrounded by ambient light from windows in the living room. Quite a huge difference, especially to the naked eye. The 3-D on the HD 33, actually looked quite good as it was. During the day, it was still viewable, but at night is where really shined. Looking almost as good as the IMAX theater down the road at the Regal Cinemas. Do not believe the reviews that say 3-D mode isn't enhanced by the HD25 LV projector.


The brightness, even to the naked eye, is doubled from the 600 and some odd lumens that I measured with my HD33. Upon measurement, I came out with about 1100 lm in 3-D mode using the film setting without any adjustments. The 3-D looks 10 times better than it did on the HD 33. I can't exactly describe why, but things seem to pop more, probably due to the enhanced contrast of the new projector. Sharpness also seems to have been tweaked.


There seems to be a push with red in the projector, that is most noticed with skintones. Knocking it back In the advanced settings, resolves the issue. Overall, you wouldn't be wrong in using the factory settings out-of-the-box. Though, with a few tweaks, you can make the picture look that much better.


Was it worth switching from the HD 33 to the HD 25 LV? Yes. Especially if ambient light is an issue in your viewing room. Even if it isn't, it will add that extra kick to both 2-D and 3-D viewing. I love the smaller physical size of the unit itself, it allows that much more flexibility in placement, no matter where you want to put it.


The mechanical noise that some people report, isn't happening on my unit, even at the bright lamp setting with dynamic black enabled. I am guessing it may have been an issue with earlier units and was resolved with the second batch. I cannot even hear the fan running in it, whereas with the HD 33 it was noticeable even over a decent volume soundtrack.


So, in summary:


Brighter in both 2-D and 3-D

Sharper picture, even with larger screens

Better overall color saturation

Smaller

Lighter

Almost silent

About the same price as HD33

More fine adjustments in menus

Multiple Inputs

VGA out, for times when you need it for presentations

Speakers for the same purpose

USB connection, for easy user upgrade


If you are on the fence between the HD 25 and HD 25 LV, I would suggest just going with the LV and paying the extra money, because you never know when you'll need the extra brightness... if you move, If you need to move the projector to another room that isn't light controlled, if you need to take it out for presentations, or just want the extra brightness in 3-D. As someone else here on the boards mentioned, it's better to have the extra lumens and not need it, then to need it and not have it.


If you have any other questions, feel free to ask. I'm still experimenting with the projector and will have more info as needed.

Thank you for the nice comparison! I have also a HD33 and I'm about to make the plunge...I have still a few questions...


The Lumens you have measured were for ECO mode or HIGH mode? Because the HD33 uses automatically high lampe mode for 3D but the Hd25-lv doesn'it if I'm right...

Could you also measure the black on both projectors?

Do you still find the Hd25-LV quieter than the HD33?

Could you mount the HD25-LV exactly on the place (and ceiling mount) as the HD33? I ask because I don't want to make new holes in my ceiling...



Thank you!
 
#69 ·
If you want to bypass all of my chatter, my questions are:


1. How does the PQ look from this projector compared to say the black levels of a new SAMSUNG or SONY flat panel (1080P)?

2. Do projectors look more controlled, and less pixelated than basic HD panels since the image being projected is so much larger, or is that just a stupid question?

3. How accurate is the color, and how are you guys enjoying the quality when gaming? Any pixelation, wishes for better color saturation/accuracy, or contrast when gaming?




Where to begin... I'll keep it simple. I'm "Really interested" in this Projector for our Den, since there is some moderate lighting coming in, and sometimes bright (LV series, obviously). I would just like to hear some owner feedback on how the PQ is compared to what I am used to.

I am still running on a SONY XBR 2. I will be sitting 12' from the screen, and I feel no sense in spending over 2K for a 55" SONY, or their lower end 70". It is recommended 90" for my distance, but I honestly dont know what size to go with. PQ is certainly more accurate, but the smaler the screen, the Brighter, and I dont want to completely blind myself at night.



I won't be able to enjoy a 55" in 1080p resolution. A 720 res. panel would be better for my distance if I am going to run that small of a size for a 12'+ viewing distance.

My question is, are the black levels beyond what a 6 Year old LCD was putting out, or is this projector mainly for the lower end, and have a bit of a pixelated look? I'm not trying to be complicated for you guys; I just don't want to be upset for paying to have speakers built into my wall, have the proper screen, calibrate, but still be unsatisfied with my projector. So, owner opinions are Extremely important, as this is going to be the finishing process to an entire remodel to my home, and what a shame it would be to have a bad image with a theater finished room. I will actually run a higher quality projector in a dedicated room, but from all of my research, this seems to fit the bill, and tickle the reviewers with price vs. quality, extremely low lag input for gaming, and a literal double brightness for better 3D (and larger screen size possibilities because of the additional lumens) than the non "LV" version.

I'm not exactly sure how these new panels decode, and if 1080p looks better at a larger size than it does on an identical size LED/LCD, or if 1080P is simply 1080P, and I am possibly going to see pixelation past 90".

Either way, I am DEFINITELY wanting to get a projector for games, and all I ever do is watch Netflix and Blu-rays... I know Netflix will look a bit disfigured, and is not the same as running from the source material.
 
#70 ·
Whether or not you should buy a projector is going to partly depend on how much light control you really have in your living room. Projectors don't do nearly as well when the lights are on, I'd say enough light to comfortably read a newspaper is too much. Enough light to uncomfortably read a newspaper is probably ok (hence enough light to easily read a remote without using the backlit). Realistically though, projectors produce the best images when the room is so dark that you cannot even read the remote's buttons without using the backlit functionality. Very important is the direction of the unwanted ambient lighting as well, it needs to be shining away from the screen and the lighting should generally be behind you (not between the path of your eyes and the projector). Otherwise normally semi-bright ambient light hitting a projector screen is generally distracting to most people (some might not care if the light is low wattage).


You can still play bright video games and watch sports when the lights are on, but the problem is that any dark scene will look totally washed out and you will lose all shadow detail. This is from a loss of ANSI contrast and a raised black floor combining into one nasty looking issue for dark scenes with ambient light.


OK, so I think if you will have some ambient light then I would work on the screen type. For budget screens, you could consider an HP Da-Lite 2.4 gain screen or possibly go into the DIY screen section in this forum and do a retro-reflective type high gain paint (or similar). You could also look at some positive gain gray screens (though these tend to be very expensive, I guess they are sort of like retro-reflective meets a gray screen). As far as I know, the best "cheap" screen material to combat minor amounts of ambient light is probably still the HP 2.4 gain screen, meaning it works well for both when the room is dark and then there is some ambient light (as long as the light isn't directly shining on the screen). In your type of environment, the type of screen you choose can be more important than someone with a darkened room.


I am not an owner of this projector nor have I seen it, but I can answer some of your questions in the sense of how DLP's in this price range relates.


1) $1000 DLP projectors are not competitive at black levels vs. TV's, but the bigger image makes the overall experience better.


2) Hmm, this depends what type of source you are watching, how close you sit, but projectors generally have a tighter pixel fill ratio than TV's do so projectors will look less digital and more natural. Visible texture weave on a cheap screen can reverse this positive into a negative.


3) Based on reviewers, the color is fairly accurate in some modes after some tweaking. You will probably find it more accurate than most TV's OOTB.


Keep in mind all projectors have advantages/disadvantages, from the reviews the advantage of this projector is the brightness and longer throw over the Benq w1070, as well as this projector has better 3D. However, the Benq w1070 has more accurate OOTB color and might have slightly deeper blacks in 2D (probably not a big enough difference to care though).


Hope that helps...
 
#71 ·
Guys,


Can you please confirm only Optoma HD25e works with 144 Hz? I heard that HD25 and HD25-lv works only on 120 Hz, is that correct?
 
#72 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by eozen81  /t/1473160/optoma-hd25-and-hd25-lv-owners/60#post_23677064


Guys,


Can you please confirm only Optoma HD25e works with 144 Hz? I heard that HD25 and HD25-lv works only on 120 Hz, is that correct?

I was wondering the same thing, I might be able to give you an answer in about a week. There is a discussion about this in here:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1482334/optima-hd25-compatible-3d-glasses

Unless someone can preform this test before I get the chance.
 
#76 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by tucsondave  /t/1473160/optoma-hd25-and-hd25-lv-owners#post_23335579


I don't know about the HD25 but here's a comparison with the HD33.

Here's what I found using a light meter on a 100% white patch from the Spears & Munsil 2nd edition disk. Rough conversion to foot candles at 13 feet from lens. Not measured through glasses. Eco mode on both.

Mode:................. 2D .................. 3D


HD33.................11 fc ................10 fc


HD25-LV............ 23 fc................13 fc


Just for grins I measured the relative black level from both pj's. No actual units here.


Hd33 value 1.4

HD25-LV value .1


Both projectors calibrated with Disney WOW.

td

Thank you for your input.


Are the values for 3D also taken in eco mode for both projectors? Could you compare the values of full lampe mode since it makes no sense to me not to use every bit of light available for 3D?


I'm guessing that brillant color is set on 10 for 2D with the HD25-LV for the value of 23fc. No? Is this also the case for 3D?


How do you live with having no more "puremotion" on the HD25-LV for 2D and 3D viewing?


Thank you,


Soulnight (happy with his HD33 but the hd25-lv is really itchy...)
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top