Rainbow Effect DLP, Can it Be Minimized? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 51 Old 01-20-2014, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey there all,

I am new to much of this, but did do a lot of research before my purchase of the Benq W1070.  I had it side by side with an Epson 2030 and the DLP picture was far superior.  However, I am unfortunate that I see the dreaded "rainbow effect"...pretty significantly.

 

I have it ceiling mounted,

--I used ProjectorCentral's calculator and have it within the recommended throw distance,

--Throwing it to a 120" 'screen' (wall, that I intend to paint a neutral grey--don't want/can't spend the money on a screen right now),

--And I have done nothing to calibrate it.  I am using roughly out-of-the-box settings.  By the way, I am shocked at just how good those settings are and the quality of the picture overall.

 

My questions are:

1.  Can the rainbow effect be minimized in any way with something such as correct calibration? (or is that for color accuracy only)

2.  Do these DLP projectors have any settings that would effect the wheel speed and therefore amount of rainbow?

3.  Should I bother to purchase another DLP projector (such as the Optoma HD25-LV) and see if there is less of the rainbow effect?..or is it likely to be the same since it has the same technology?  I understand that the Benq may have a faster wheel, thus making it the best choice anyway.

4.  Is there any sub-$1000 DLP projector that is "known" to have the least amount of rainbow effect?

 

I understand some of the factors that can minimize it, such as less brightness and smaller image size, but I was wondering if I was overlooking anything.  

Sorry if I do not have the amount of knowledge that some may have, and I am in no way a video-phyle.  I just want as good a picture as I can get out of a sub-$1000 projector. 

 

If anyone should suggest calibration, could you also recommend best means of doing this.  I would like to be able to do it myself, if possible.

 

Thanks so much for taking the time to help and I look forward to any suggestions.

-Jim

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post #2 of 51 Old 01-21-2014, 06:17 AM
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I have issues with RBE too and was a concern when buying my w1070 last week. When I first hooked it up I could see them right away. For me I changed the settings to cinema and lamp to Eco. This made them pretty much all disappear to me. Yes with certain scenes you can still see them but not bad. With the out if the box settings I can see them but still not bad enough to return. The only other DLP I have experience with a old Phillips rear projection and that was bad, not my set but inlaws.
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post #3 of 51 Old 01-21-2014, 08:06 AM
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Definitely the RBE will lessen at the lower light output modes. It will also lessen as the bulb ages and dims. You could also go to a bigger screen but at 120 you are already pretty large.
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post #4 of 51 Old 01-21-2014, 08:25 AM
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faster color wheel speeds help too. But now adays most single chip color wheel machines do not have variable speed wheels such as 5x, 6x, and 7x. Marantz projectors had such a user selection.
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post #5 of 51 Old 01-21-2014, 09:53 AM
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^^ Mitsubishi uses a variable wheel, with their faster speed reserved for 24p signals only.

As to the OPs delimma, I'd recommend giving it time. Lowering brightness or turning on some ambient lighting that doesn't wash out the picture too much, might accellerate the process. But, if you're like most (most according to TI's research claims, and my own experiences), your brain will adjust. I think there's a sort of learning curve to teaching your brain how to process DLP. Unless you're one of the 10% (or whatever the statistic was of people who have a more serious reaction to dlp, which isn't just because of rainbows, but because of their vision and brain not being able to process the way the tech works), most ill effects of DLP tech should lesson as you acclimate.

I just switched back to DLP after around seven years with SXRD. The higher contrast levels of todays DLP projectors seemed to make rainbows even worse than the slower color wheel speeds of yesteryear. And needing a completely dark room makes RBE much more problematic for front projection owners than owners of conventional DLP displays.

I'd always been able to see rainbows, but you can learn to ignore them, just as you learn to ignore phosphor persistence and LCDs similar motion artifacting that I forget the name of. However, I'd never had as adverse a reaction to DLP as I did when switching back - in addition to seeing rainbows with every fade to black or scene eliciting rapid eye movement, considering I sit only about 1x screen width away, I'd get a headache within 30 minutes of watching. But you didn't mention headaches or anything so it doesn't sound like you're one of the minority who is more accutely affected by DLP tech.

I found games were actually better than movies at rainbows, despite the slower colorwheel speeds for 720p material and concluded that it had to be because of how I was watching. Gaming was a more focused viewing experience: I was engrossed in playing game itself, rather than studying the video as I'd learned to do from my time reviewing and is only natural for anyone to pay more attention to, when getting/evaluating/admiring a new display. But after a couple weeks of reminding myself that rainbows are more optical illusion than video anomaly, I could tell a difference. Wiithin a month, mabe two, they were all but gone, and now I also can game for long sessions without eye strain induced headaches, encouraging me to take a Goodies powder, if I want to keep watching/playing.

If you can see rainbows, you'll likely always be able to see them, if you want to. But at some point, you should reach a place where you'll actually have to actively "want" to, for them to be any kind of burden. People with more adverse reactions may not be so lucky, but in my experience, rainbows can be ignored almost to the point of obsolescence.

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post #6 of 51 Old 01-22-2014, 03:21 AM
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The W1070's color wheel multiplier has been found to change depending on refresh rate.

We've found that it only runs at full 6x (technically it's a 3x mechanical wheel, but it has 6 segments, ie RGBRGB, yielding an effective 6x) when the input refresh rate is 50hz.

So if your source device (blu-ray player/HTPC/etc) offers you the ability to change output framerate, then up it to 50hz. More discussion about this here.

Since doing so my side, I'm hardly noticing rainbows anymore.

The other thing that's helped (as mentioned here) is reducing brightness: either by dropping to Eco mode, or by getting some hours on the lamp (since it naturally dims with use).
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post #7 of 51 Old 07-18-2014, 07:20 AM
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Hi,

I just purchased a Benq W1070 to replace a very old Infocus X1. The image is projected on a white wall distance screen <> projector +- 110 inch, screen width 94 inch. This is the "old 3:4 screen" size for the X1 The white portion of the screen is surounded with a very dark blue paint to optimize contrast ratio. I use an old computer to play movie's, so resolution is set at 1360 x 768 @50Hz input VGA for now. The Benq W1070 is set at eco modus, calibrated with some settings i found online...projector is brand new so bare with me. Proper calibration will be done with the Avia calibration dvd. Once i digg up the Avia dvd.

So according to the projectorcentral calculation i am currently projecting @ 28 fL screen brightness. Nearly burning a hole in the wall . Rainbow effect is very visible. My room is 18 feet long, 14 feet wide so there is lots of room for a bigger screen. I do like my movies bright, watch almost everything with subtitles (RBE!). And prefer a 30 degree viewing angle. I am comptemplating using the manual zoom on the Benq W1070 to make a Widescreen (1:85) / Cinemascope (2:39) screen. Fixed height 49 inch, width CS 118 inch, width WS 91 inch. After this long introduction, here is my question:

"Did anybody try to lower brightness by increasing the screensize and did this reduce the rainbow effect?"

(I do not like to paint the screen grey or use a polarization filter in front of the lens to reduce brightness, don't know why, seems like blasphemy to me. I am aware of the contradiction bigger screen more head movement, more RBE <> bigger screen less brightness, less RBE.)

Last edited by Over the Rainbow; 07-18-2014 at 07:50 AM.
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post #8 of 51 Old 07-18-2014, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Over the Rainbow View Post
Hi,

I just purchased a Benq W1070 to replace a very old Infocus X1. The image is projected on a white wall distance screen <> projector +- 110 inch, screen width 94 inch. This is the "old 3:4 screen" size for the X1 The white portion of the screen is surounded with a very dark blue paint to optimize contrast ratio. I use an old computer to play movie's, so resolution is set at 1360 x 768 @50Hz input VGA for now. The Benq W1070 is set at eco modus, calibrated with some settings i found online...projector is brand new so bare with me. Proper calibration will be done with the Avia calibration dvd. Once i digg up the Avia dvd.

So according to the projectorcentral calculation i am currently projecting @ 28 fL screen brightness. Nearly burning a hole in the wall . Rainbow effect is very visible. My room is 18 feet long, 14 feet wide so there is lots of room for a bigger screen. I do like my movies bright, watch almost everything with subtitles (RBE!). And prefer a 30 degree viewing angle. I am comptemplating using the manual zoom on the Benq W1070 to make a Widescreen (1:85) / Cinemascope (2:39) screen. Fixed height 49 inch, width CS 118 inch, width WS 91 inch. After this long introduction, here is my question:

"Did anybody try to lower brightness by increasing the screensize and did this reduce the rainbow effect?"

(I do not like to paint the screen grey or use a polarization filter in front of the lens to reduce brightness, don't know why, seems like blasphemy to me. I am aware of the contradiction bigger screen more head movement, more RBE <> bigger screen less brightness, less RBE.)
I have definitely noticed less RBE as bulb dims with age and when going to a larger screen. I have an Acer 9500 and I started with a 100 inch screen. The RBE was very noticeable to me, almost any time I moved my head or darted my eyes I could see it. As the bulb aged and dimmed it went away almost completely. I then went to a 120 inch screen and have replaced the bulb and the RBE was much less noticeable than with the 100 inch screen and a new bulb.
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post #9 of 51 Old 07-18-2014, 11:49 AM
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Thanks! I will paint a bigger screen and report back! On a side note: would be wonderfull if all projectors came with the standard zoomrange to do at least 1.85 / 2.35 within one image height. Seems so logical... but it's really rare. Cinemascope imo should always be wider than Widescreen / 16:9.
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post #10 of 51 Old 07-18-2014, 12:07 PM
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Some people are more sensitive to RBE than others: some can't stand to watch DLP images at all.
Some projectors are better at hiding it: multi-chip DLP projectors and those single-chip DLPs with high speed color filter discs.
Some scenes are more prone to it than others: vertical high-contrast edges tend to be the worst.
There is some anecdotal evidence that people get used to it and don't notice it as much after a while. This might be due to dimmer images, or because we don't notice things that we see often: we see what we expect to see, and not what's actually there.

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post #11 of 51 Old 07-18-2014, 12:41 PM
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I'll throw another voice in for dimming the image with a bigger screen, darker screen (painted flat), or $15 NDfilter..along with eco mode, of course.

I'm not particularly RBE sensitive anymore, but I used to be during specific, fast night scenes. Even then I never had it bad, and now I'm part of the lucky supposed majority who can even watch a 2X Optoma without any trouble or distraction.

Because I've seen RBE and know what to look for, it's still easy enough to force myself to see it by twitching my eyes side-to-side rather than watching the image on screen. So I can loosely tell (at least by comparison) if one projector is showing more RBE than another even though I no longer experience RBE during normal viewing.

I recently painted a wall a very dark grey for a screen in a darkened cave/room and found out that I can't even FORCE myself to see RBE with my DLP on this dark screen. If I get my hands on a slower CW DLP sometime in the future I'll have to try it and report back.
But, yeah..if you're painting a neutral grey and can experiment a little, try going darker or do a search on avs for the recommended $15 NDfilter.
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post #12 of 51 Old 07-19-2014, 06:33 AM
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Thanks for the answers

I am very sensitive for RBE, i have owned an Infocus X1 for many years, i know the sensitivity for RBE wears of. And know exactly when it will show. Although i am sensitive it's not a big problem, the big smile i get from the picture the Benq W1070 throws balances things of nicely.

On the other hand. I used to be a 35mm projectionist. So anything wrong with the picture sends PANIC sensations down the spine. That's something that will never wear off. Would be great if at least the subtitles would be RBE flash free. Hope to get there with a bigger screen. I am aware the Benq is not a Christie CP2210 digital cinema projector, i can compare them on a weekly base.

My cinema background makes it hard for me to lower gain on the screen or use a NP filter, call it rigid, stupid or irrational. I don't feel happy wasting projector light. That would be my last resort.

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post #13 of 51 Old 07-19-2014, 07:12 AM
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The used market can be a very good source of superior DLP machines if you do not want or need 3D.
For instance the Planar PD8150 should sell around $1500, OEM bare lamps are $175 and the machine is superior in every other aspect of image from focus to color accuracy than any of the current single chip DLPs on the market under $5000. The only issue is if it fails, you probably won't be able to get it fixed.. Currently on ebay there is a Runco LS5 that is the same unit as the PD8150 but with the Runco name as well as a PD8150.. Neither one "Should" sell for more than $15-1800 both are over prices and the LS5 has been thought several auctions with the max bid less each time.. Just another option that would provide and image as good as if not better than your Christine at work.. Personally I do not see RB and no one has ever seen them on this projector or the previous Mitsubishi.
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post #14 of 51 Old 07-21-2014, 09:24 PM
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Constant image height is not possible with the Benq W1070. Only when i would use an abnormal amount of keystone correction or make a manual projection tilt construction. Can't win em all. -edit- any one tried constant image height with a W1070? It's hot where i live, could be preventing me from seeing the obvious, on paper the lensshift does not prevent the image from expanding in one direction only. Image is not perpendicular to the lens.

Last edited by Over the Rainbow; 07-21-2014 at 10:03 PM. Reason: extra info
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post #15 of 51 Old 07-22-2014, 09:12 AM
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good,That's something that will never wear off. Would be great if at least the subtitles would be RBE flash free. Hope to get there with a bigger screen. I am aware the Benq is not a Christie CP2210 digital cinema projector,[IMG]http://*******/WNKpGN[/IMG] i can compare them on a weekly base.thanks
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post #16 of 51 Old 07-26-2014, 06:54 AM
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Hi bourmrere,

Something to tell? Or confused about the quote buttons?

Regards
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post #17 of 51 Old 12-30-2014, 11:34 PM
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What about the BenQ W1400 or W1500

They have frame frame Interpolation.

Would frame Interpolation help reduce the rainbow effect?
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post #18 of 51 Old 12-31-2014, 11:36 AM
 
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Doubtful. I wish I had frame interpolation on my projector, if only for 3D frame packed movies from Bluray. (or watching Blurays from my Xbox One which doesn't do FI even in 2D).
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post #19 of 51 Old 01-06-2015, 06:19 PM
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My two cents.

I bought an Acer H6510BD, a projector with a 2X wheel speed, so if you are rainbow effect sensitive you will see TONS of it.

When I bought it I was worried about being rainbow effect sensitive, turned out that I´m prone to that effect, vould watch it easily on dark scenes, it was a little of a let down, however, after 3 monthsI said "EFF it, I no longer care if I see it", and, suddenly, almost stopped seeing rainbows, now I barely see any rainbows, well, mind also plays trick to us.

STOP WORRYING about the rainbows and it would help a little
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post #20 of 51 Old 01-06-2015, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Over the Rainbow View Post
Would be great if at least the subtitles would be RBE flash free.
I forget what I was watching the other day, but I thought it odd that the subtitles were in GREEN as opposed to WHITE. I doubt the choice of a primary color for subtitles had the DLP RBE in mind, but it does make them RBE-free.
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post #21 of 51 Old 10-09-2015, 08:58 AM
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I don't know....I have a DLP that's supposed to be very subject to RBE, however - neither me, nor my friends can see it. I'm running frame interpolation with SVP-4, and I view all BD's from my HTPC.
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post #22 of 51 Old 10-25-2015, 09:30 AM
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I'm looking for a dlp , but i'm very afraid me or my family could see the RE, i just want to know if the image below is for recording the video with a low frame cam/phone or in fact there are people that sees the RGB bars like it shows .

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post #23 of 51 Old 10-25-2015, 09:32 AM
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Rainbow Effect DLP, Can it Be Minimized?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zuwarrior View Post
I'm looking for a dlp , but i'm very afraid me or my family could see the RE, i just want to know if the image below is for recording the video with a low frame cam/phone or in fact there are people that sees the RGB bars like it shows .


That's not RBE at all: as you suspect, that's a capture-rate mismatch on the camera

If you select a projector that has a modern, home-theatre-centric color wheel, it's unlikely you'll be bothered.

But get your projector with a return policy and let your own eyes decide.

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post #24 of 51 Old 10-25-2015, 05:06 PM
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I had a Optomo HD141x DLP and couldn't stand the RBE. Once you see it you will see it forever no matter what. You might be able to train yourself to make it less but you will see it sometimes.

For me its a no brainer to be a LCD projector which I did and I will never go back to DLP. If it wasnt for RBE yes I would have kept the DLP.

The problem is when company comes there is always that one person that see's it and hates it. That doesn't happen anymore with my LCD, everyone I show is blown away by it. You have to think, most people dont see projectors ever in there life's!
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post #25 of 51 Old 10-26-2015, 03:41 AM
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On the other hand I have had DLP for 10 years old style RGBW color wheel and at least a 100 people have viewed it and never saw a rainbow. I have forced myself to see them by cranking the output up and viewing test patterns and at the same time waving my finger in front of my eyes and darting my eyes across the screen. I don’t doubt some people have a problem with them but in my experience I haven’t ran across anyone that has. You just have to try and see.

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post #26 of 51 Old 10-27-2015, 03:46 AM
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thanks for the answers!

Could this constant movement of the RGB horizontal bars be the cause of headache? I Tried a optoma hd50 for 10 minutes yesterday , amazing sharpness and blacks but it gave me little headache...Does the LCD works in the same way? I have a Pana pt ax200 and 0 headache with this projector.
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post #27 of 51 Old 10-27-2015, 04:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zuwarrior View Post
thanks for the answers!

Could this constant movement of the RGB horizontal bars be the cause of headache? I Tried a optoma hd50 for 10 minutes yesterday , amazing sharpness and blacks but it gave me little headache...Does the LCD works in the same way? I have a Pana pt ax200 and 0 headache with this projector.
Anything can cause a headache. I wouldn’t go by once viewing for 10 minutes. but if it happens every time DLP might not be for you. LCD is totally a different system and works completely different.
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post #28 of 51 Old 10-27-2015, 04:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zuwarrior View Post
thanks for the answers!

Could this constant movement of the RGB horizontal bars be the cause of headache? I Tried a optoma hd50 for 10 minutes yesterday , amazing sharpness and blacks but it gave me little headache...Does the LCD works in the same way? I have a Pana pt ax200 and 0 headache with this projector.
The horizontal bars thing doesn't happen in real-life, but yes the colorwheel might have been causing your headache if you're super-sensitive to it. If that turns out to be the case (or if you personally don't want to investigate further and would rather avoid the chance altogether) any 3panel LCD, LCoS/SXRD, or 3chip DLP will not show any rainbow effect.
3Chip DLP is likely way out of budget, 3panel LCoS starts at around $1600-1800 with the Sony hw40, while LCD is available from $700-1700+ depending on your contrast/performance needs.

However, DLP gives a pretty hard to match price/performance combination and unbeatable motion-handling. And as mentioned above, a headache could've been any number of unrelated things as well, so ruling out DLP might be a bit premature at this point.

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post #29 of 51 Old 10-27-2015, 05:16 AM
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A screen 3x brighter than matte-white, in conjunction with black-frame-insertion would give 3x better motion resolution and 3x less chance of RBE . Though black-line-insertion would be much better way because b-f-i leading to flicker, and b-l-i supposedly not.

It's evidenced here by Texas Instruments (RBE is a form of Scan-and-Hold effect ):
Quote:
3.3 Reducing Scan-and-Hold Effects
(...)the progressive scan-and-hold aspect of an LCD
requires special treatment to prevent the loss of image
quality compared with scan-and-erase technologies such as
CRTs and plasma displays. This self-erase feature prevents
part of the previous image frame and part of the new image
frame from being simultaneously present on the display.
A Third Generation Timing Controller And Column Driver Architecture
Using Point-to-Point Differential Signaling
http://www.ti.com/lit/an/snla170/snla170.pdf

Last edited by gain3; 10-27-2015 at 05:23 AM.
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post #30 of 51 Old 10-27-2015, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
The horizontal bars thing doesn't happen in real-life, but yes the colorwheel might have been causing your headache if you're super-sensitive to it. If that turns out to be the case (or if you personally don't want to investigate further and would rather avoid the chance altogether) any 3panel LCD, LCoS/SXRD, or 3chip DLP will not show any rainbow effect.
3Chip DLP is likely way out of budget, 3panel LCoS starts at around $1600-1800 with the Sony hw40, while LCD is available from $700-1700+ depending on your contrast/performance needs.

However, DLP gives a pretty hard to match price/performance combination and unbeatable motion-handling. And as mentioned above, a headache could've been any number of unrelated things as well, so ruling out DLP might be a bit premature at this point.

Thank you for this valuable information, I really appreciate it.
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