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Dear Manufacturers

2K views 36 replies 11 participants last post by  fierce_gt 
#1 ·

Dear Manufacturers,

 

Isn't it about time you guys manufactured a small 'router sized' LCD unit, full 1080 HD, with at least 1000 lumens, real 30k or more lcd life expectancy, built in WiFi, a glass lense, good connectivity with more HD connections, consistent blacks, zoom, without blurry edges, built in psu that doesn't emit more sound than my laptop with a good remote and costs no more than $500-$700? It's very achievable but the units which have come to market recently by Vivitek & LG for example, have been massively overpriced in my humble opinion.

 

The portability and form factor of this market, makes these products very practicle in todays modern confined living spaces. It just seems that inflated prices for mediocre improvements have been the order of the day for this price range, when in reality, what I have outlined is both very achievable and if marketed properly would be profitable based on volume sales. Rather than bundeling a bunch of unused features and software, if you focused on quality and reliability at this price range, sales would increase significantly.

 

Dear Consumers,

 

Start demanding more bang for your bucks!! Go to the trade shows, your retailers and contact the manufacturers online and insist on better quality & reliability rather than bundled garbage feature's which very few people practically use! This end of the market has the biggest potential for growth, let's make that potential a reality and ensure products match our needs rather than making do with mediocre products at inflated prices.

 

Please make your realistic feature request at this price range below:
 
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#3 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by siya  /t/1532790/dear-manufacturers#post_24746874


Isn't it about time you guys manufactured a small 'router sized' LCD unit, full 1080 HD, with at least 1000 lumens, real 30k or more lcd life expectancy, built in WiFi, a glass lense, good connectivity with more HD connections, consistent blacks, zoom, without blurry edges, built in psu that doesn't emit more sound than my laptop with a good remote and costs no more than $500-$700? It's very achievable but the units which have come to market recently by Vivitek & LG for example, have been massively overpriced in my humble opinion.
Or why not a 3,000 lumen LED projector with UHD resolution and a 4x optical zoom lens, 3 picture heights of lens shift in every direction, and a price tag of $50?


In all fairness to manufacturers, 15-20 years ago a quality home theater projector ran upwards of $20,000. They weighed over 100 pounds, and couldn't spell digital. A quality quad scaler would run another $10,000+ if you wanted Faroudja technology.


Now LG has delivered 1,000 lumens (not real) of 1080p projection in a model that is LED and on the small side for projectors. It's by far and away one of the most value packed projectors out there, but still is lacking for many, in many areas.


I'm wondering what basis you have to deliver this request and think that they aren't delivering some of the most value-intensive projectors in the world right now?


To that matter - what the heck is the 'wi-fi' for on a projector? What use does that have? Projectors receive video from HDMI, which operates above 5Gbs, far faster than wi-fi can handle, and any Internet apps should be handled by a box which handles those types of apps, and can feed my A/V receiver with audio, which is where the audio originates.
Quote:
Originally Posted by siya  /t/1532790/dear-manufacturers#post_24746874


The portability and form factor of this market, makes these products very practicle in todays modern confined living spaces. It just seems that inflated prices for mediocre improvements have been the order of the day for this price range, when in reality, what I have outlined is both very achievable and if marketed properly would be profitable based on volume sales. Rather than bundeling a bunch of unused features and software, if you focused on quality and reliability at this price range, sales would increase significantly.
What you have outlined may not at all be achievable. I'm thinking that the exact opposite is true. I'm thinking that you have no idea how much time and effort has gone into the product development of the projectors on the market that still fit into the world as a niche product. Where the average home may end up with 3 or 4 flat panel TVs, the average home still doesn't have one projector in it. That's a lot of R&D time that must be paid for anytime a new projector comes to market.


I don't disagree with your wish list, but there is a reason why BenQ hasn't just swapped out their W1070 with a LED light engine. There's a reason why manufacturers aren't delivering the exact product you are asking for. They simply aren't there yet. DLP doesn't have a PICO based 1080p chip. The Pico chips don't look as good as full sized DLP chips. The request for portable projectors with good 'smart' functionality is something that quite a few make, and companies with a solid 'smart' package (LG, Samsung, etc.) can include this within a system on a chip that's included for next to nothing.


No, the price you pay right now (about $1,200 for the LG which we will respectfully call the best) you really are getting about all that could be hoped for from the technologies for where they stand. I'm not aware of many (any?) projectors under $3,000 which use glass elements, but they still look great for what they are. These are cheap displays. Bottom line, is that people can drop more on a 50" television than they need to drop to get over a 100" projected image. Quality projectors with more serious black levels come in starting upwards of $2,000. Not one projector under $2,000 that I know of has ever reached the black levels of the Epson UBs, or Sony/JVC LCoS models.


Someday, I'm sure your dream will come true, but right now, for those who have followed projectors for 10+ years, the concept of getting a 20,000 hour lamp life in a 500+ real world lumen projector that has native 1080p resolution and it running under $2,000 is simply amazing. More amazing, because it does get just a bit better every single year.
 
#4 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by AV_Integrated  /t/1532790/dear-manufacturers#post_24747432





I'm wondering what basis you have to deliver this request and think that they aren't delivering some of the most value-intensive projectors in the world right now?
I'm actually a components engineer and I know precisely how much each component costs. I base my requests on the fact that I've worked in the pro audio realm for over 20 years and seen first hand many 'brands' who's products were once niche and they have adapted to surface mount manufacturing and the 'digital age'. I see alot of similarities between this industry and pro audio and I'm specifically talking about the $500-$1000 range of projectors.
What you have outlined may not at all be achievable. I'm thinking that the exact opposite is true. I'm thinking that you have no idea how much time and effort has gone into the product development of the projectors on the market that still fit into the world as a niche product.
With all due respect, it is achievable and I also have extensive knowledge on R&D costs as it's what I've been doing for many years. Most components used in these cheaper format projectors are OEM components, besides a few modules such as the LED modules. When you are designing a product, the first thing you start with is a budget and time schedule. The component technology available on the market today, can easily facilitate my requests at a price range of $500-1000, this is a fact.
Where the average home may end up with 3 or 4 flat panel TVs, the average home still doesn't have one projector in it. That's a lot of R&D time that must be paid for anytime a new projector comes to market.
I believe the issue is a lack of training in the areas of sales & marketing to make the average consumer aware of the advatages of using projectors rather than TV screens in some cases. Very much like pro audio, which was super niche until the late 80's, there is an 'elitest hobbiest' element to the core consumer. 
 
What I am specifically referring to, is to refine product design in order to target a generic consumer and achieve greater sales in the process. The main issue's at this price range seem to be the lack of reliability, low lumens, noise, over complexity of features which rather than make products unique, make products into what we refer to as 'me too' products. They are cramming too much in, so they can try and sell to all the niche's of the projectors consumer base, ie business, education & leisure rather than focusing on each section, which if designed well would make the products better for the purposes they were designed for.
 
There's a reason why manufacturers aren't delivering the exact product you are asking for. They simply aren't there yet. DLP doesn't have a PICO based 1080p chip.
Again, without wishing to sound like a know it all, I beg to differ. There have been Pico 1080 modules available since 2009 both Liquid Crystal on Silicon and Laser-Beam-Steering modules. The issue maybe that of a perceived lack of consumer awareness to justify volume production.
The Pico chips don't look as good as full sized DLP chips.
Agreed but they will look good enough at the price range I suggested.
The request for portable projectors with good 'smart' functionality is something that quite a few make, and companies with a solid 'smart' package (LG, Samsung, etc.) can include this within a system on a chip that's included for next to nothing.
So you agree, the wish list is easily attainable!
No, the price you pay right now (about $1,200 for the LG which we will respectfully call the best) you really are getting about all that could be hoped for from the technologies for where they stand. I'm not aware of many (any?) projectors under $3,000 which use glass elements,
Qumi Q7 glass lense
but they still look great for what they are. These are cheap displays. Bottom line, is that people can drop more on a 50" television than they need to drop to get over a 100" projected image. Quality projectors with more serious black levels come in starting upwards of $2,000. Not one projector under $2,000 that I know of has ever reached the black levels of the Epson UBs, or Sony/JVC LCoS models.
The problem is that the leading manufacturers of this tecnnology are currently the Japanese & Koreans. Having worked with them for over two decades in pro audio, I can tell you first hand that the reason we are not seeing these developments are more to do with how it may impact their astronomical sales of TV's than with the technology not being available.
Someday, I'm sure your dream will come true, but right now, for those who have followed projectors for 10+ years, the concept of getting a 20,000 hour lamp life in a 500+ real world lumen projector that has native 1080p resolution and it running under $2,000 is simply amazing. More amazing, because it does get just a bit better every single year.
It's called drip feeding, the whatever is making them the most money, is part of the problem.
When I first started in Pro Audio everyone swore blind on 2" tapes, expensive outboard gear, valve products, Analogue everything and such, nowadays you can record, mix and master a professoonllly sounding piece of music using nothing more than a laptop, for less than $1000. I agree, we're not talking about the very top end of the market but if consumers want to have confidence in these prdducts, there needs to be more effort made educating people and giving consumers what they actually need rather than making swiss army knife products. 
 
 
#5 ·
dear consumers. please stop thinking you can get everything you want for nothing, that's the reason every good tv produced in the last 10yrs has been a flop. projectors are still 'thriving' and advancing because consumers know it costs money to make a good projector. if everybody stops spending more than 700bux, we're going to be left with a bunch of data projectors that can't even match edgelit lcd quality



but hey, this is a free market, if you can actually build a $700 projector with top quality performance, go do it and make a boatload of money. I'd be sure to buy one before your company goes bankrupt
 
#6 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt  /t/1532790/dear-manufacturers#post_24748373


dear consumers. please stop thinking you can get everything you want for nothing, that's the reason every good tv produced in the last 10yrs has been a flop. projectors are still 'thriving' and advancing because consumers know it costs money to make a good projector. if everybody stops spending more than 700bux, we're going to be left with a bunch of data projectors that can't even match edgelit lcd quality



but hey, this is a free market, if you can actually build a $700 projector with top quality performance, go do it and make a boatload of money. I'd be sure to buy one before your company goes bankrupt
Actually if the latest LG LED is selling for $1200 now, it's probably going to be $1000 by Christmas. So really, it's not that far fetched at all, I think roughly $1 per lumen is a good guide and this would be a good starting point. I'm suprised people are so content, but fair enough.
 
#7 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by siya  /t/1532790/dear-manufacturers#post_24748197


I'm actually a components engineer and I know precisely how much each component costs. I base my requests on the fact that I've worked in the pro audio realm for over 20 years and seen first hand many 'brands' who's products were once niche and they have adapted to surface mount manufacturing and the 'digital age'. I see alot of similarities between this industry and pro audio and I'm specifically talking about the $500-$1000 range of projectors.
Look, we've all seen the death of analog over the years, and the associated drop in price, but a good studio still costs a fair bit of cash to set up, and microphones are still analog devices at the front end. A good set of speakers still costs thousands of dollars, etc. Meanwhile, businesses with excellent quality are ditching their products, going belly up, or just changing strategies. Quality takes the wayside to profitability every day of the week because people, by their nature, are cheap, and this isn't good for CEMs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by siya  /t/1532790/dear-manufacturers#post_24748197


With all due respect, it is achievable and I also have extensive knowledge on R&D costs as it's what I've been doing for many years. Most components used in these cheaper format projectors are OEM components, besides a few modules such as the LED modules. When you are designing a product, the first thing you start with is a budget and time schedule. The component technology available on the market today, can easily facilitate my requests at a price range of $500-1000, this is a fact.
You think they don't start with a time, schedule, feature set, etc.? What do you think LG or Optoma does then?


I believe, rather strongly, that LG is about to find out that their 80/85U 1080p model gets hammered for not having 3D, and will be under utilized for their built in applications and additional features that many people don't want to pay for, while another group will praise them for all those features because people use them all the time. So, the bottom line is that people want as many features as can be packed in for the money.


For the money.


It's fine to make claims about $500-$1,000 and calling it 'fact', but in fact, you don't know if it can be done and still be acceptably profitably for anyone to deliver on this.


We do know that to build a media streaming player it's about $50-$100 end user cost for that product to be out and to be profitable. Roku, AppleTV, and others fit this mold. Incorporating that into any projector is an added cost in that range for every projector manufacturer at least.

We see decent projectors come out as full size units for about $800, but no smart features, and no LED technology in them, and those LED panels are typically the latest and greatest available to them. I'm not sure what corners will have to be cut to get to that next level of product that you desire.
Quote:
Originally Posted by siya  /t/1532790/dear-manufacturers#post_24748197


The problem is that the leading manufacturers of this tecnnology are currently the Japanese & Koreans. Having worked with them for over two decades in pro audio, I can tell you first hand that the reason we are not seeing these developments are more to do with how it may impact their astronomical sales of TV's than with the technology not being available.
While you may believe that everyone wants to swap out all their TVs with projectors, I'm feeling like this probably isn't the case. Especially considering the true headaches involved with front projection. As for the 'astronomical sales of TV's' maybe you should talk to Pioneer, or Panasonic about it... maybe even Sony. There are a limited handful of companies making good money on TV sales, and they are limited.

As far as I know, Optoma, InFocus, and Qumi, or AAXA aren't in the TV business. They are projector manufacturers and they want to outsell each other.

Since LG released the 1080p, 1,000 lumen model with Smart features, I'm betting we will see a step up from that from the competition right? Yeah, probably not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by siya  /t/1532790/dear-manufacturers#post_24748197


It's called drip feeding, the whatever is making them the most money, is part of the problem.
Drip feeding and future products are always part of a business equation and pissing and moaning about it as consumers doesn't change it. I wouldn't be surprised if the next 3-4 iPhone models are mostly designed already, but that doesn't mean that companies aren't still waiting on certain technologies to come along and have realistic pricing. Kind of like getting HDBT into products. It's a phenomenal tech that makes a ton of sense, but adds to much to the price to implement in products, so it isn't added. It's fine to say the technology IS there, but when that statement doesn't reflect reality, then it doesn't come to be. Remember, when Blu-ray Disc came to market most TVs couldn't process 1080p video and most computers were terrible with that resolution. It does take time for technology to catch up to dreams.
Quote:
Originally Posted by siya  /t/1532790/dear-manufacturers#post_24748197


I agree, we're not talking about the very top end of the market but if consumers want to have confidence in these prdducts, there needs to be more effort made educating people and giving consumers what they actually need rather than making swiss army knife products.
Most consumers have no idea what they need, or what they want. They want 10,000+ lumen projectors that look good during the daytime, have silent fans, and adjust for nighttime viewing as appropriate on the fly. They want projectors to project black so that black levels are always perfect, they want it to work from 50' from their 80" screen, or 3 feet from their 200" screen. Consumers are all over the place and the product out now isn't a swiss army knife, it's a 'average'. It picks some basic realities about homes and then fits that profile as best as it can. That's exactly why the W1070 is so highly regarded. It fits more situations than almost any other projector on the market and does so for a good price and with excellent overall quality. In comparison, if they made it more of a swiss army knife of a product and added serious lens shift and zoom range from a projector like the 8350, and made it as quiet as many other projectors, put in the $99 replacement lamps that Epson uses on their 2030 model, and perhaps added the Smart features from the LG PF85U, or a LED engine that doesn't exist which delivers over 1,500 real world lumens, then it would be more popular than it is already.


I would say that the swiss army projector is the goal of most manufacturers. They want black levels and quality that puts them ahead of everyone else, and the hold up is not them, but the technologies which are required to make it all happen.


I think asking for it isn't wrong. Expecting it in 10... maybe 5 years... isn't unreasonable. But the technology doesn't move because we ask, it moves because it always moves.


Your requests mirrors those same requests I've read five, even ten years ago. Someone always stands up and 'demands' it, and eventually it all comes to pass, but it's not a quick journey. It's going to be a long slow road getting there. It certainly won't be easy.
 
#8 ·
I'm going to go through this list item by item so the issues can be addressed:
Quote:
Originally Posted by siya  /t/1532790/dear-manufacturers#post_24746874


a small 'router sized' LCD unit, full 1080 HD
I assume you mean a LED lit unit, not 'LCD', since LCD is one of the projection technologies.


At this time there are no PICO projection chips on the market which are 1080p that I know of. The FIRST micro projector with 1080p is the LG unit that just came out. No LCoS, no laser steering that I've seen. It may be possible, but not ONE manufacturer has done this, and I don't think it's because they don't want to, but because there is a ton of R&D cost to doing so which makes it a huge gamble.
Quote:
Originally Posted by siya  /t/1532790/dear-manufacturers#post_24746874


with at least 1000 lumens
1,000 real world lumens from a LED light source with good color hasn't been delivered yet, but I think this is the most realistic expectation of the bunch since almost every manufacturer wants a really bright LED light engine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by siya  /t/1532790/dear-manufacturers#post_24746874


real 30k or more lcd life expectancy
Once again, LED, but your typical television will be lucky to see 30,000 hours. I think that any electronics lasting, or being rated, to that length of time are probably liars, but a good 7-10 years of average use seems realistic lifespan, no matter how many hours it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by siya  /t/1532790/dear-manufacturers#post_24746874


built in WiFi
Sure, who cares? Wi-fi for what? This is very much a part of the Swiss Army Knife being discussed. Great if people want this feature, pointless for those who don't care about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by siya  /t/1532790/dear-manufacturers#post_24746874


a glass lens
I'll take plastic or glass as long as the optics are good. Good optics are far more important than the material they are made of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by siya  /t/1532790/dear-manufacturers#post_24746874


good connectivity with more HD connections
Does any projector need more than 1 or 2 HDMI inputs? Audio sucks on them, and getting audio from them to a A/V receiver is typically difficult, but more connections are fine. Hard to pack onto a small projector though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by siya  /t/1532790/dear-manufacturers#post_24746874


consistent blacks
Consistent? Sure. Good blacks. Better blacks than the typical DLP model would be ideal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by siya  /t/1532790/dear-manufacturers#post_24746874


zoom, without blurry edges
Yes, this falls into 'good optics'. How about lens shift as well? I'll take the Epson 8350 lens on any projector, any day of the week. Maybe plastic optics, but some of the best on the market for that price point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by siya  /t/1532790/dear-manufacturers#post_24746874


built in psu that doesn't emit more sound than my laptop
Does your laptop have a built in power supply? Maybe, but probably not. Most projectors have a built in PSU, but PSU's take up room, they are hot, they must be cooled. In micro/pico projectors, this is rarely a feature that is included. In full sized models it is always included. They have room for the power supplies. I'm going to call this out as a limitation of what power supplies can be expected to do reliably and power supplies remain one of the biggest failing points of many products out there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by siya  /t/1532790/dear-manufacturers#post_24746874


a good remote
Yes, a good remote, a serial port, and perhaps LAN control with published documentation. Discrete power controls as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by siya  /t/1532790/dear-manufacturers#post_24746874


costs no more than $500-$700
If they actually deliver a projector of this quality for $1,000 with that many lumens and all the rest, it would be the most popular projector out there. I would recommend it, and if my projector broke, I would likely buy it.


But, let's add the rest of the stuff.


Lens shift, 2x or more zoom range, 12v triggers, serial port, automatic firmware updates, smart functionality support, optical/coaxial audio output, HDMI ARC, serious lens shift, dead quiet.


There's more we can want, and we can keep asking the price to go lower (and it will), but when it comes along we will want a 3x zoom lens, more lens shift, and at least 3,000 lumens and a UHD pico chip with a battery pack that will run it for 12 hours straight.


I truly forsee all of this coming. I see the price you have and see that as reality. So, don't get me wrong, I agree that it will all get here. I just think that some of what you ask for is completely unrealistic right now. Technology still has a ways to go, but it will all get here at some point.


I mean, 10 years ago a halfway decent 720p projector was going to run you at least $2,000 and would only give about 600 lumens or so for home theater. That's down to $500 with more quality. Yeah, I think we will get there.
 
#9 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by siya  /t/1532790/dear-manufacturers#post_24748573


Actually if the latest LG LED is selling for $1200 now, it's probably going to be $1000 by Christmas. So really, it's not that far fetched at all, I think roughly $1 per lumen is a good guide and this would be a good starting point. I'm suprised people are so content, but fair enough.

I may have missed it, I've been trying to keep up with LED development as I'd really like to replace my need for a plasma with a LED projector, but I was still under the impression that even the 3k LED projectors lacked the picture quality(specifically deep blacks) that are needed to be a great home theater projector. not that they are terrible, but that dollar for dollar, they still lag behind. so a $1000 bulb based projector and 5 extra bulbs gives the same performance and life as a $3K LED projector.


my interim plan is to find a 1000ish LED projector that's 'good enough', and run a dual projector set up(my current jvc for movies, and the led for more casual usage). if the LG is that close, I may not have to wait as long as I thought for at least my interim plan.


lumens is the least of my concerns, I'm waiting for great black levels, contrast, color reproduction. I think the jvc is like 400ish lumens, and it's plenty bright, so that's not really my concern for LED.
 
#11 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by NickTheGreat  /t/1532790/dear-manufacturers#post_24751207


Maybe *they* could drop the Wifi and have only 1 HDMI and they could sell it for $425

give me only 600lm's for 350...
 
#12 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt  /t/1532790/dear-manufacturers#post_24750399


I may have missed it, I've been trying to keep up with LED development as I'd really like to replace my need for a plasma with a LED projector, but I was still under the impression that even the 3k LED projectors lacked the picture quality(specifically deep blacks) that are needed to be a great home theater projector. not that they are terrible, but that dollar for dollar, they still lag behind. so a $1000 bulb based projector and 5 extra bulbs gives the same performance and life as a $3K LED projector.


my interim plan is to find a 1000ish LED projector that's 'good enough', and run a dual projector set up(my current jvc for movies, and the led for more casual usage). if the LG is that close, I may not have to wait as long as I thought for at least my interim plan.


lumens is the least of my concerns, I'm waiting for great black levels, contrast, color reproduction. I think the jvc is like 400ish lumens, and it's plenty bright, so that's not really my concern for LED.
That 1080 LED LG has measured contrast and black levels that effectively match or beat anything (new, not used/refurb) under $2000. The colors aren't as accurate out of the box as the w1070 nor do they calibrate as perfectly, but they aren't bad at all (and they can be calibrated once you learn LG's weird design limitations..the person behind their CMS needs a board upside the head). If you're happy with 400lumens and don't need 3D, the PF85u is very much worth a look.
 
#14 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast  /t/1532790/dear-manufacturers#post_24754629


That 1080 LED LG has measured contrast and black levels that effectively match or beat anything (new, not used/refurb) under $2000. The colors aren't as accurate out of the box as the w1070 nor do they calibrate as perfectly, but they aren't bad at all (and they can be calibrated once you learn LG's weird design limitations..the person behind their CMS needs a board upside the head). If you're happy with 400lumens and don't need 3D, the PF85u is very much worth a look.

thanks i'll keep an eye on it. sounds like if not grabbing one on clearance, then next years model might be perfect for my dual projector idea(one LED for 'casual' use, and my jvc for movies). the real question will be if I'm ready for it by then or not, haha
 
#15 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bsims2719  /t/1532790/dear-manufacturers#post_24755025


Question is who is going to compete with LG?


Be nice if Optoma and Benq get in the ring and drive down the cost.

could you imagine. LG being the only good OLED producer and the leader in LED projectors...
 
#17 ·
The best thing that we can do as consumers is buy this projector (LG PF85U). It will send a message to manufactures that we are tired of bulb projectors. When Epson, Optoma, Benq etc see their sells decline they will react.


Seriously this is getting a little ridiculous. The cost of an led light engine is the same or less than a bulb. I'm sure it's less when you add the cost of an motorized iris considering that leds can do this electronically.


Projectors are the slowest market in the history of markets.
 
#19 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bsims2719  /t/1532790/dear-manufacturers#post_24760316


The best thing that we can do as consumers is buy this projector (LG PF85U). It will send a message to manufactures that we are tired of bulb projectors. When Epson, Optoma, Benq etc see their sells decline they will react.


Seriously this is getting a little ridiculous. The cost of an led light engine is the same or less than a bulb. I'm sure it's less when you add the cost of an motorized iris considering that leds can do this electronically.

Projectors are the slowest market in the history of markets.

I don't know about that. front projection as gone from 400lbs devices that REQUIRED tens of thousands of dollars of room construction and often cost 100's of thousands by the time you were done, to textbook sized devices you can set up in mins in your living room for less than a grand. and that was in about 15-20yrs? when I was a kid reading a/v magazines I DREAMED of front projection, but accepted I'd never be able to afford it. so for me, I'm totally thrilled with how fast projectors have progressed.
 
#20 ·
I just think some people are unrealistic about what to expect overall. It's not that projectors won't reach most, if not all, of the original requests, but projectors are a niche product, and that niche is a subset of the television market. A company like LG can put 'Smart' features in, because they already have a fully developed platform to launch that from. But AAXA or Optoma really don't. They would have to build it from scratch (not likely) or incorporate it from a 3rd party (Roku stick/Chromecast) which is far more likely. But, then we get into the 'why?' argument. Why put decent speakers into a projector when I have a good surround setup, I don't want to pay for that. Why give me 'Internet Streaming' when I have a BD player, game system, media streamer, etc. which does it already? Why, why, why? The balance is always a bit interesting because I think that LG could have hit a home run with the PF85, but why is there no home theater specific build to it? No 3D, no zoom, and no lens shift.


My personal dream is a model like the PF85U in the chassis of a Epson 8350. A decent lens, 2.1x zoom range, crazy lens shift, and still have a LED driving DLP light engine. Get rid of the rest, and give us that with enough light output for 100" to 120" and if that' under $1,500 or so, then I would be seriously recommending it.


The smaller models are something I've always considered the race to the bottom, which seems silly. You end up with $3,000+ LED projectors or $1,000 ones, and there's a lot of room left open between the two.
 
#21 ·
Hey, Siya IMHO the LG PB63u is almost there!


Based on what I have learned I feel that the LG PB63u is almost what you describe. I believe that its shortcomings are based on a lack of desire and not a lack of technology.


Only a few engineering choices need be made to reach your criteria:

1. Router size: The current PB63u dimensions (HWD mm): 33.8 x 158 x 101.5. Weight (kg): 445


2. 30000 Hours (LED light engine)


3 1080p (It uses a Pico DLP device that displays 1280x800 but it can use wobulation in one axis to display1920x540. It would require no major engineering feat to use wobulation in both the vertical and horizontal axis’s to display 1080p.


4. 1000 lumens. It is rated at 500 lumens. If the projector did 300 lumens optimized and nearly silenced that would be enough to light a 120 inch an ultra high gain screen. You would not get inky blacks but the sheer impact of the screen size could justify the loss of black levels. I have been experimenting with screens for a while. The simplest test would be to get a large piece of foam board and tape aluminium foil (dull side) to it. I did it last night. I was amazed at the image using my HW300T. I also painted a 60x40 board with metallic paint. It was also impressive. I needed the screens for a dual projector 3d setup.


5. Wi-Fi. I see DLNA as a security risk to my home network so I don’t use it. But I would love to use defeatable Wi-Fi to access my network to play movies and music. I want to choose when I access the internet. My HW300T will not let me use my local network without giving it access to the internet. Actually, with the USB wireless module attached, it will seek out any router and bypass my network to access the internet if I fail to respond in time.


6. Glass lens, Zoom, without Blurry edges. I would also add autofocus to that list. The technology in pocket cameras should “easily” make this possible. There are no breakthroughs required.


7. Consistent Blacks: I would add an auto-iris but black level is my compromise. What I do on my current projector is use external software to control the image. I constantly adjust the gamma curves to raise and lower (mostly raise) my black levels. I could simply project a smaller image but 110 is the smallest image that I can enjoy. It is a problem because once I switch from 2:35 back to 16:9 the image becomes a bit uncomfortable.


8. Internal power supply unit. Okay, I guess I have another compromise. External PSUs give design flexibility and reduce internal thermal stress (it keeps the projector cooler).


9. More HD connections. The PB-63u is pretty compleat and it includes WiDi capability. I am stunned that the newest LG projectors (PF85u and PA77u) remove the VGA connector. There must be far more computers with VGA connectors than HDMI or component connectors.



My wish list using existing technology for an “ideal” projector would be an updated PB63u:

1. One unified remote that has selectable recode control codes for multiple projectors.

2. Designed to stack two projectors for 3D so that the owner would have the option of using either passive (polarized) or active 3D glasses. A simple timing cable would control the projectors in active mode

3. A modular PSU to permit both projectors to be connected to the same outlet.

4. Wi-Fi without the need to connect to the internet to access my local computers.

5. Ship with an inexpensive 60 inch high gain “foil” screen that is black masked (lined with ultra thin black lines) for daytime viewing.

6. Use the optical system from pocket cameras and include autofocus.

7. Offer user selectable colour schemes when making projector adjustments because certain colour combinations are irritating.

8. Offer at least a dozen user memories with no grayed out restrictions on projector capabilities i.e. do not limit what can be adjusted based on input resolution. Allow those settings to be saved to USB.

9. Add the 3d capabilities of the 77u.

10. Keep the existing PB63u connections.

11. Add the audio capabilities of the 77u especial ARC (audio return channel)

12. Develop a software font program to smooth the edges of text. I rotated text on my computer 45 degrees and projected on my PICO projector. It was acceptably sharp.

13. 1080p would be nice but I can live with 1920 x 540 (1280x800). I recode my movies in 940x540 to save space on my 2.5 HDD because once motion occurs then it is very difficult to appreciate the higher resolutions.

14. I would like an ultra short throw lens system. I would prefer that the projector should be in front of the viewing area.


15. Make smart apps an upgrade option.


16. And in the “it would be even nicer” category: add a simple PVR function as an option. Out of frustration with trying to order a STB (one merchant required that I store my CC and the other require that I change my software for them), I bought several Ematic AT103b STBs from Walmart; each for the cost of a Thumbdrive. They were cheaper clones of the Homeworx and iView STBs in the HDTV recorder forum. I haven’t had many of the problems the forum users describe.


If it meant increasing the PB63u to the size of my HW300T (double the height) then I could live with that change. Note, I would not add two tuners so that the cable industry does not see the simple PVR as serious competition.


As you can see Siya, I believe that current technology exists to produce the projector you describe and it can use the LG PB63u as a prototype.


I would note that if you have not lived with any of the LG projectors with a built in tuner then you are missing a technologically seductive experience. Having a wall-sized HD PBS broadcast in the background is pretty inspiring especially when you’re doing house chores.
 
#22 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by AV_Integrated  /t/1532790/dear-manufacturers#post_24762298


A company like LG can put 'Smart' features in, because they already have a fully developed platform to launch that from. But AAXA or Optoma really don't. They would have to build it from scratch (not likely) or incorporate it from a 3rd party (Roku stick/Chromecast) which is far more likely. But, then we get into the 'why?' argument. Why put decent speakers into a projector when I have a good surround setup, I don't want to pay for that. Why give me 'Internet Streaming' when I have a BD player, game system, media streamer, etc. which does it already? Why, why, why? The balance is always a bit interesting because I think that LG could have hit a home run with the PF85, but why is there no home theater specific build to it? No 3D, no zoom, and no lens shift.


My personal dream is a model like the PF85U in the chassis of a Epson 8350. A decent lens, 2.1x zoom range, crazy lens shift, and still have a LED driving DLP light engine. Get rid of the rest, and give us that with enough light output for 100" to 120" and if that' under $1,500 or so, then I would be seriously recommending it.


The smaller models are something I've always considered the race to the bottom, which seems silly. You end up with $3,000+ LED projectors or $1,000 ones, and there's a lot of room left open between the two.
I could be wrong here, but using an inexpensive SOC that is fast enough for decent video decoding simultaneously allows a very low price AND any brand (including Aaxa, who IS using this now) to simply throw the android OS in. A cheap, effective SOC and a free OS that have a multitude of wireless functions that are universal and have no real size, price, or power limitations to stop them from being added to any design by any brand. The inexpensive pa75u manages a low price, LED+streaming AND the best built-in sound I've yet heard (inside a small/light body no less) so I'm pretty sure decent sound isn't a big price changer..then again, having EVERY PJ include a simple auxiliary out could largely nullify that altogether.


Was the 8350 always a pretty affordable PJ, or did it start out as a higher/middle end unit? I got the impression it was introduced as a lower end, and the going backwards in design/ability seems even stranger then. Do you think dropping that flexibility is really saving Epson all that much?
 
#23 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast  /t/1532790/dear-manufacturers#post_24763560


I could be wrong here, but using an inexpensive SOC that is fast enough for decent video decoding simultaneously allows a very low price AND any brand (including Aaxa, who IS using this now) to simply throw the android OS in. A cheap, effective SOC and a free OS that have a multitude of wireless functions that are universal and have no real size, price, or power limitations to stop them from being added to any design by any brand. The inexpensive pa75u manages a low price, LED+streaming AND the best built-in sound I've yet heard (inside a small/light body no less) so I'm pretty sure decent sound isn't a big price changer..then again, having EVERY PJ include a simple auxiliary out could largely nullify that altogether.
Using Android is exactly what I mean by going third party. I'm not going to define what that third party support is, but integrated or external, it's not something that smaller companies are going to support because of a lack of resources. LG can certainly port over all their Smart TV stuff into projectors and it basically costs them nothing more after the chip design. A buck or two at most. But, other companies just need to figure out some way include that type of feature, and every feature they add, passes on some cost to the end user. Maybe not much, but something. I'm not sure how many people who are running a home theater care about it.


Don't get me wrong, but the 'best built-in sound' from a sub 3" speaker is not decent sound. It's just sound. The W1070 has a speaker in it, but it's garbage. I'm not discounting that it produces sound, but a 100" screen with a tinny speaker is not home theater, and only recreates the theater experience if the theater has blown speakers. Still, it's nice for portability, and projectors if they are going to tackle sound should have a digital audio output and support ARC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast  /t/1532790/dear-manufacturers#post_24763560


Was the 8350 always a pretty affordable PJ, or did it start out as a higher/middle end unit? I got the impression it was introduced as a lower end, and the going backwards in design/ability seems even stranger then. Do you think dropping that flexibility is really saving Epson all that much?
Yes, the 8350 was always inexpensive.


The review from 2010 indicates that it was selling for under $1,300 then: http://www.projectorcentral.com/epson_home_cinema_8350_projector_review.htm


So, the only reason I can fathom for Epson removing that lens from the 3020 was because of how many sales were taken from the 8700UB. That is, if they give us a projector with no lens shift, then people have to buy the far more expensive model to get the setup flexibility that they require, but there is no other reason than sales to remove that lens.


Seriously, I don't give one bit of a darn about portability in a projector. Make it quiet, give it good optics, give it good zoom range, give it lens shift, make it 1080p, have it support 3D, and give it proper brightness for that 3D, which means the ability to truly deliver close to 1,000 lumens. That's a serious product right there, and at this point, they still just aren't serious from what I see over and over again.
 
#24 ·
I'm mostly focused on portability and you know what, there's STILL a ton of room for a single-product compromise. Something around the size of the 1070 is still plenty portable AND roomy enough for quiet fans and ceiling-mount-worthy lensing/flexibility. There are fully capable android devices at $50 (screen included) and were lesser capable at $25, so I don't see why a more fully featured version of the chromecast couldn't be an external add-on for someone like me..as well as knowing there are pleasantly usable built-in speakers available for when I don't want to carry much, and small 2.1's when a second armful is okay (as long as there's an aux-out). I'd also need a tripod mount (a few cents added to the design, or already included in the hd131xe..badly) and a weight limit around 3-4 pounds which might be hard to make. I suppose a built-in (for $50 more to consumer) android might be needed for me as I need a built-in mediaplayer and that'd kill two birds for cheap. I bet a lot of users might enjoy that a mediaplayer adds the ability to play direct from hard-drive. Android also means near unlimited codec support and wireless networking/DLNA/wifi-direct/wireless audio without needing internet access..so less security risk


So, as long as they can keep the build around the size of the common lamp-based DLPs, weight around 3-4lbs, and add a balanced universal tripod mount to an LED design with a good mediaplayer at an affordable price, I'm happy. Now to find a tiny android with hdmi.


I could also say screw portability if they give me a $300 more expensive option with a second DMD in a single-light-path to 10X my contrast and black level. Something that looks nice, I could mount and simply use a PC with. With current CR/black levels in the under $2000 range, I'm not wasting my time with mounting and demand a bit of portability instead.

I wouldn't mind paying more to have a device with the flexibility of lens-shift and zoom if it can be had for under $1500. Does that sort of lensing add a lot of weight or size?
 
#25 ·
I think there really has to be two separate products here.


I focus on my theater setup. I want quality there. I put money into the space, and want a great image. The manufacturers have really flubbed up to this point on LED engines. They are horrendously expensive, or horrendously cheap. No, not horrendous, the 85U is a solid little piece of tech, but it misses out on the mark for home theater installation. Cheap optics, far to many 'internalized' features, no 3D, not really bright enough to support 3D. But, yes, including lens shift, and better optics is going to increase size. The 8350 is a beast of a projector, and is mirrored by pretty much every projector with decent optics. Sony, JVC, Panasonic, and Epson all have larger models when they include lens shift and more zoom range. So, I think portability goes a bit out the window. I mean, you can move it around the house, or to the back yard occasionally, but just setting up a projector properly in a theater to hit a screen perfectly takes no less than 30 minutes with a good mount. It's not something I, or many others, desire to do regularly. Likewise, I exclusively use my A/V receiver. All my sources are connected to it. I don't use junk video streams, but stick with 1080p source material at the highest quality from Blu-ray whenever possible, and look for quality HD viewing at all times. I have my Roku box and AppleTV, but those are rarely used in favor of BD for most viewing. Any streaming devices would have to support movie ISO files from Blu-ray or non-recompressed MKV files. But, I wouldn't connect straight to the projector, I would go to my A/V receiver. All I want from any projector is the best video reproduction possible.


Yet, I get what you are asking for. I see a market for portability. This is exactly what these small projectors have been delivering over and over and over again. They completely fail to deliver on a serious home theater unit with zoom, lens shift, and a very quiet, tight chassis design, but they are upping the doo-dads and gizmos like crazy, with the 85U being the current culmination of whatsits that are included.
There are people buying those units, and I assume they are buying for that portability and internal ease of setup. Drop it down, enjoy! But, no zoom, no lens shift... While I'm sure some are putting them in their theater, how many more aren't? What would happen if we saw just ONE quality unit that had the zoom, and lens shift, and was competitively priced? Forget the lens shift, how about just having decent zoom range?


I think the competition has set the bar with the W1070. So, it's up to others to meet that challenge. If the LED light source does not add significantly to the cost, then why not a 1080p, LED projector, with a rated (not real) 1,000 lumen output which supports 3D, and has some decent zoom range for under $1,000? That, at the moment, at least seems realistic.
 
#26 ·
In that case, optics requiring that size, and part of my love for the portable devices also requiring their under $700 pricing (which makes outdoor adventures a lot less worrisome), I have to concede to the dual product aspect.


I can find external, small devices for streaming and sound, but NEED the PJ to be small, light, and extremely cheap if it's going to be portable. An indoor/mounted unit good enough for the majority will need zoom, quiet fans and a worthwhile black level for a dark room. The current LED light engines are very inexpensive (apparently you can buy one straight from the manufacturer for around $250), about the same as a lamp while requiring roughly 1/3 the power (strobe VS colorwheel efficiency) and negating the cost of the colorwheel assembly. With Osram and Phillips adding competition to the LED market, I don't see 1000 real lumens as a horribly distant goal.


The current crop of portable LEDs offer enough for my needs on that front (though I occasionally wish for a mix of certain manufacturer features), and there's no good reason for there NOT to be an LED product filling the HT needs at a price mirroring their lamp-bases brethren.
 
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