Epson 5030UB vs Sony VPL-HW40ES, anyone else wrestling? - Page 13 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #361 of 1059 Old 03-31-2015, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
Well...the Projector Central calculator will tell you brightness based upon throw distance so that takes zoom into account. From what I understand this Sony loses very little brightness with zoom....I believe they mention it in their review. Longevity is not going to be affected in any case...unless for example your throw is short enough that you can use the low lamp setting to get the brightness you want rather than the high setting. I believe the calculator assumes the normal (not the low) setting. You should also consider that the bulb will dim over time through normal use so I would try to account for that (Meaning don't aim for the brightness you want at max throw...factor in a little extra brightness when the bulb is new).

Some folks are mentioning bluriness in part of the image when too much lense shift is used so it would probably be best to try to reduce the amount of that you use with proper placement of the mount. Of course this could vary from projector to projector due to manufacturing variances. Mine doesn't seem to be affected by this but I haven't spent TONS of time looking into that.

It seems to be a balancing act. I would determine what screen size you want and how close you want to sit to it. Then determine if the projector can be mounted behind you (less distracting IMO) considering the screen size and seating distance you've selected. Using the calculator think about what the brightness would look like when the bulb is old (some say brightness would dip by about 50%) and if that would still be bright enough for a dim room (14 to 20 ftL is normally considered adequate). Of course you could always replace bulbs more often or get a higher gain screen if the numbers don't line up well.
Thanks so much but tell me will there be a problem if I use a fool zoom to cover a 110" screen at this fixed 3.3m throw distance? It's said fool zoom should be avoided.
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post #362 of 1059 Old 03-31-2015, 08:06 AM
 
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I don't think full zoom is always a bad thing but when planning my room or projector purchase I try not to count on using it.

I figure my ceiling mount is long term and I won't want to move it once it's there. But maybe I'll decide to change my screeen size...so will my current projector choice and mount location allow me to freely do that without moving the mount or exceeding the zoom capaability of my chosen projector?

For example....my wife and I are getting a house built. I'm getting a room that is 18 feet long and I want to sit about 11 feet from a 106 inch screen (I personally like this distance in tests but a lot of people say this will be way too small). I want the projector behind me so I'm going to mount it at thirteen feet from the screen (the projector is fairly long and it probably wouldn't hurt to have some airflow between it and the wall). My screen is 1.0 gain:

So with my 13 foot throw and screen I'd be at roughly 1.42x zoom with a 120 inch screen and get 18 ftL with a new bulb per the calculator. I'd be worried this would be a bit dim as the bulb ages...so it would be doable but I might consider a shorter throw or higher gain screen (especially since my room is fairly narrow and off angle seating would not be a problem).

But with a 13 foot throw and a 106 inch screen I'm at 1.31x zoom and 22 ftL. And I have a little more wiggle room for declining bulb brightness.

I also assume you wouldn't want to be truly at MAX zoom as you will need a little wiggle room to adjust the image for the border of your screen etc.
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post #363 of 1059 Old 03-31-2015, 08:18 AM
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I was considering the Epson before the 40es was released but have never been too impressed with LCD projection, or LCD's in general. Now, I see almost no point in buying the Epson, the Sony does just about everything better at the same price with a better warranty.
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post #364 of 1059 Old 03-31-2015, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
Well...the Projector Central calculator will tell you brightness based upon throw distance so that takes zoom into account. From what I understand this Sony loses very little brightness with zoom....I believe they mention it in their review. Longevity is not going to be affected in any case...unless for example your throw is short enough that you can use the low lamp setting to get the brightness you want rather than the high setting. I believe the calculator assumes the normal (not the low) setting. You should also consider that the bulb will dim over time through normal use so I would try to account for that (Meaning don't aim for the brightness you want at max throw...factor in a little extra brightness when the bulb is new).

Some folks are mentioning bluriness in part of the image when too much lense shift is used so it would probably be best to try to reduce the amount of that you use with proper placement of the mount. Of course this could vary from projector to projector due to manufacturing variances. Mine doesn't seem to be affected by this but I haven't spent TONS of time looking into that.

It seems to be a balancing act. I would determine what screen size you want and how close you want to sit to it. Then determine if the projector can be mounted behind you (less distracting IMO) considering the screen size and seating distance you've selected. Using the calculator think about what the brightness would look like when the bulb is old (some say brightness would dip by about 50%) and if that would still be bright enough for a dim room (14 to 20 ftL is normally considered adequate). Of course you could always replace bulbs more often or get a higher gain screen if the numbers don't line up well.
Thanks so much but tell me will there be a problem if I use a fool zoom to cover a 110" screen at this fixed 3.3m throw distance? It's said foul zoom should be avoided.
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post #365 of 1059 Old 03-31-2015, 09:40 AM
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Sorry I mean full!
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post #366 of 1059 Old 03-31-2015, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
I don't think full zoom is always a bad thing but when planning my room or projector purchase I try not to count on using it.

I figure my ceiling mount is long term and I won't want to move it once it's there. But maybe I'll decide to change my screeen size...so will my current projector choice and mount location allow me to freely do that without moving the mount or exceeding the zoom capaability of my chosen projector?

For example....my wife and I are getting a house built. I'm getting a room that is 18 feet long and I want to sit about 11 feet from a 106 inch screen (I personally like this distance in tests but a lot of people say this will be way too small). I want the projector behind me so I'm going to mount it at thirteen feet from the screen (the projector is fairly long and it probably wouldn't hurt to have some airflow between it and the wall). My screen is 1.0 gain:

So with my 13 foot throw and screen I'd be at roughly 1.42x zoom with a 120 inch screen and get 18 ftL with a new bulb per the calculator. I'd be worried this would be a bit dim as the bulb ages...so it would be doable but I might consider a shorter throw or higher gain screen (especially since my room is fairly narrow and off angle seating would not be a problem).

But with a 13 foot throw and a 106 inch screen I'm at 1.31x zoom and 22 ftL. And I have a little more wiggle room for declining bulb brightness.

I also assume you wouldn't want to be truly at MAX zoom as you will need a little wiggle room to adjust the image for the border of your screen etc.
So you mean I should go for a zoom by 1.40 to 1.50 to reach a 100 or 105 diagonal?
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post #367 of 1059 Old 03-31-2015, 07:58 PM
 
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So you mean I should go for a zoom by 1.40 to 1.50 to reach a 100 or 105 diagonal?
Use this. I really don't know how else to help you.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/proj...ulator-pro.cfm
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post #368 of 1059 Old 04-01-2015, 03:28 AM
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Use this. I really don't know how else to help you.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/proj...ulator-pro.cfm
Thanks. I've read some material these days and most of them say full zoom should be avoided because zoom has its own disadvantages like lowering contrast! It seems like a trade off; so a 106" or 100" diagonal, at 1.50 and 1.43 zoom, will be my choice -with a throw of 3.3m to avoid 1.6 full zoom of this machine.
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post #369 of 1059 Old 04-01-2015, 10:45 PM
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Thanks to everyone in this thread. I am finally getting ready to build my dedicated theater space. I get to use my brand new in the box Infinity Betas I have had for 5 years!

I had wanted the JVC projector, but after reading this thread I feel pretty good about the Sony. I will be going from a Hitachi PT200 (720p) and a 92" Carada white screen so I am sure anything I upgrade to will be amazingly better, although I have really enjoyed the Hitachi for the last 8 years.

My distance is fixed at 17' wall to wall, but the width is still in the planning (leaning towards 13 or 14 feet). That will determine the size of the new screen.

WOOT!
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post #370 of 1059 Old 04-08-2015, 11:59 AM
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Epson is giving a coupon for a spare lamp with the 5030UB projector again - from now until June 30th, in case you want to wrestle some more between the 5030 and the HW40 !!
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post #371 of 1059 Old 04-10-2015, 05:57 AM
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Please share with us your experiences with 3d glasses on sony 40es. which type/model you recommend to buy?
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post #372 of 1059 Old 04-10-2015, 08:54 AM
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I use the playstation 3d glasses and they work perfect


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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post #373 of 1059 Old 04-11-2015, 08:19 AM
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Ditto

They'd are all I've needed so far to view 3D
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post #374 of 1059 Old 04-13-2015, 08:48 AM
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Ok! I've finally had over a week with the VPL-40 installed. I owned and used the Epson 5030 for 3 months from mid-Dec until I sold it in mid-March. So now I can provide a relatively unbiased opinion.

Some important info to consider when reading my comments:

- I owned a Pioneer Kuro for 5 years (still do, just not the main unit anymore) and a Panny 65ZT60 for a year after that (until it died)
- I sit 7'6" feet from the screen, and the projector is ceiling mounted, at a 7' height, at 11'6" from the screen
- The screen is a 92", DIY screen. 0.8 Gain due to my lighting conditions, which are the following:



Yes, that's 19' of windows in a double height space. Complete with white tile floors, and white walls. Basically, the worst possible projector environment you could think of. With the blinds closed and blackout curtains on the balcony door, it becomes very dark inside. I still have the reflective surfaces, however. I used "Reference" on low lamp for the VPL40, and THX on low lamp for the 5030 in my viewing.

In any case, on to my analysis:

Black Levels

I enjoyed the black levels on the 5030. Thanks to the detachable magnetic matting panels I designed for my screen, I could plug up the black bars on 2.35+ content and not be distracted by the black bars. Having come from a ZT60 and a Kuro, I was used to pitch-dark, inky blacks, so I wondered if the transition would be manageable. It was. Originally, I had a 1.1 gain screen, but that completely washed out my blacks due to the brightness increase. I had to go gray. My screen is Munsell N9 gray, using an exact color matching for paint from Sherwin-Williams. In any case, the black levels were acceptable, non-distracting, and overall I was satisfied with them.

The VPL40, to be clear, does not have the blacks of the 5030. It is noticeable, and whether its a product of my lighting environment (probably) I'll never know until I move out. It's not 100% distracting yet, but it is a little unnerving. Maybe I'll get used to it. I don't think it's for lack of the dynamic iris, as I rarely used the dynamic iris on the Epson. Without using the matting panels, the black bars are clearly dark gray. I feel like I need another two weeks of content to see if I can get used to it or not. I've only seen a few movies and Game of Thrones episodes.

Contrast

The VPL40 has superior contrast to the 5030. Scenes with max white and max black in them appear far better in the VPL40, they got washed out on the 5030 - i.e., an interior room with a character talking while the full sun streams through the window. It's far clearer on the VPL40, with more detail in the shadow areas than the 5030 could. This is a welcome bonus, in my opinion.

Color Accuracy & Reproduction

Both projectors excel in these areas, and I loved the colors of the images. I have no complaints from either of these projectors.

Image Sharpness

This has been a great talking point on the Sony thread. Maybe it's my seating distance, but without the Reality Creation engine on, the Sony has a distinct soft look to the image. The Epson had, when properly focused, sharpness on par to my plasmas. The Sony does not. Activate the Reality Creation engine, and boom - it becomes far sharper, and brings out far more detail, at the expense of introducing a crapload (the scientific term, of course) of grain/noise to the image. It was offputting and distracting at first, giving the image a "processed" look that had me struggling to accept. Eventually, putting Noise Reduction at Low and MPEG NR at Low countered some of the effects of the noise while still keeping the sharp image. I need further time to study this. But I have to declare the 5030 a winner here for now, because it needed no such processing to provide a clear image. It kind of almost feels like the Sony engineers intentionally sabotaged a direct image from the source to force you to use Reality Creation. I hope I get used to it before the return period expires.

Visible Pixelation

The reason I returned the 5030. In the first two months of use, I never noticed Screen Door Effect. Animation, sports, streaming, live-action films, nothing. Then, I saw The Simpsons Movie, which features simple color animation, and holy cow did it stand out like a sore thumb. And from that point, I was never able to un-see it, catching it all the animation movies I saw and in a lot of the live-action movies. My missus or my sister never saw it, but I couldn't deal with it. Again, this might be due to my seating distance as well, but since that can't be changed, I had to get rid of it. Downside of the LCD tech.

The Sony, thanks to DLP tech, doesn't have this issue. You have to press your face to the screen to see the pixels. You can see SDE from my seating distance if you really strain to see it and focus on trying to find it, but in regular viewing it's not noticeable. Phew.

Gaming

Hands down a win for the Sony. Playing Destiny on my PS4 on this is incredible. The Epson was too slow. But we already knew this about the comparable lag.

Aesthetics & Ease of Use

I miss the automatic cover of the Epson. I refuse to manually cover and uncover the lens using the provided dust cap on the Sony, so off it'll stay, and I'll use my DSLR's air blower to blow dust off the lens every week. The VPL40 is a beauty to look at, while I considered the Epson a little more industrial, but this is a matter of personal preference. The side connections are also a little trickier to handle, but no big deal. I also wish that the mounting screws on the Sony were aligned with the unit's center of gravity. They are not, as they were on the Epson, so leveling it on two planes was a pain in the ass compared to the 5030.

Conclusions

It's hard for me to pick a clear winner. Both have their flaws and positives, but the 5030 had SDE which I just couldn't live with, while the VPL40 has the lesser blacks and noisy RC image.
It'll remain to be seen how I feel after a full month with the VPL40, since I'll decide by then whether to return it and keep questing, or live with it.

I believe owning a Kuro for 5 years spoiled me, since I was used to perfection, and now have to make compromises. But that's what this hobby is. I'll update in a week with more thoughts on the VPLs blacks and Reality Creation.
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post #375 of 1059 Old 04-13-2015, 06:14 PM
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this projector was 2300 which i thought was too high but i just checked amazon and they have it for 1999$...interesting

my 3 projectors were sony 40es ,benqw1070 and epson 5030. this is my first projector so i want to do it right
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post #376 of 1059 Old 04-13-2015, 09:11 PM
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Light blacks are easy to fix on ANY projector: just dial down the brightness.
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post #377 of 1059 Old 04-14-2015, 06:52 AM
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this projector was 2300 which i thought was too high but i just checked amazon and they have it for 1999$...interesting

my 3 projectors were sony 40es ,benqw1070 and epson 5030. this is my first projector so i want to do it right

So does Visualapex. Their ad is currently on this very page--$300 off 5025, 5030 & 5030e. That's where I got mine and VERY happy with the projector and Visualapex. Outstanding customer service.


Ed
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post #378 of 1059 Old 04-14-2015, 08:40 AM
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Visible Pixelation

The reason I returned the 5030. In the first two months of use, I never noticed Screen Door Effect. Animation, sports, streaming, live-action films, nothing. Then, I saw The Simpsons Movie, which features simple color animation, and holy cow did it stand out like a sore thumb. And from that point, I was never able to un-see it, catching it all the animation movies I saw and in a lot of the live-action movies. My missus or my sister never saw it, but I couldn't deal with it. Again, this might be due to my seating distance as well, but since that can't be changed, I had to get rid of it. Downside of the LCD tech.

The Sony, thanks to DLP tech, doesn't have this issue. You have to press your face to the screen to see the pixels. You can see SDE from my seating distance if you really strain to see it and focus on trying to find it, but in regular viewing it's not noticeable. Phew.

You're sitting 7' 6" from a 92" screen. THAT'S why your getting SDE, even on the Sony. Back your couch up a foot or two, problem solved.


I understand that you say you can't change the position of your couch, and I also understand that that's why you got the Sony. Good decision. But don't blame the LCD technology for the fact that you can't move your couch. That's not a "downside" of LCD.
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post #379 of 1059 Old 04-14-2015, 08:43 AM
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You're sitting 7' 6" from a 92" screen. THAT'S why your getting SDE, even on the Sony. Back your couch up a foot or two, problem solved.


I understand that you say you can't change the position of your couch, and I also understand that that's why you got the Sony. Good decision. But don't blame the LCD technology for the fact that you can't move your couch. That's not a "downside" of LCD.

Come now, come now, it's commonly agreed upon that LCD projectors have far more visible dividing lines between pixels than the SXRD/LCoS/DLP (whatever) projectors. I'm not the only one to bring this matter up, seating position or not. You just have to adapt to it if you're considering it.
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post #380 of 1059 Old 04-14-2015, 11:04 AM
 
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SDE IS a limitation of LCD that can be mitigated by increasing your seating distance. And some folks will see SDE at longer distances than others might. IMO if you can afford/justify the increased cost of a SXRD projector I would choose it. I don't think LCD projectors are junk...I would pick them over DLP since I see rainbows, but luckily SXRD is available and I don't have to.
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post #381 of 1059 Old 04-14-2015, 01:05 PM
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Light blacks are easy to fix on ANY projector: just dial down the brightness.
jokes asides this may actually work with the SONY.. it's got excellent shadow detail and doesn't crush blacks to simulate higher contrast..

Insert pithy comment here
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post #382 of 1059 Old 04-15-2015, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by JJxiv1215 View Post
Come now, come now, it's commonly agreed upon that LCD projectors have far more visible dividing lines between pixels than the SXRD/LCoS/DLP (whatever) projectors. I'm not the only one to bring this matter up, seating position or not. You just have to adapt to it if you're considering it.
Even if I had a 70mm projector, I wouldn't sit 7' 6" from a 92" screen. I also don't sit in the front row at a movie theater.


Notice also in my comment where I said that since he couldn't move his couch, buying the Sony would be a good decision. Notice also where he said he also saw SDE with the Sony, just not as severe. 7'6" is pretty close. Even with the Sony, if I could, I would move back.

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post #383 of 1059 Old 04-15-2015, 09:36 AM
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Your ZT died in a year??? Did you lose a little fath in the world at that point, because I would have.
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post #384 of 1059 Old 04-15-2015, 04:12 PM
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You're sitting 7' 6" from a 92" screen. THAT'S why your getting SDE, even on the Sony. Back your couch up a foot or two, problem solved.


I understand that you say you can't change the position of your couch, and I also understand that that's why you got the Sony. Good decision. But don't blame the LCD technology for the fact that you can't move your couch. That's not a "downside" of LCD.
It IS a downside of LCD. And he's not getting SDE because HE's sitting too close. He's getting it because he's sitting too close to LCD-projected image.

I just got my Sony after returning Epson. I sit at 14' from a 165" screen. I had a pretty serious SDE with Epson that's why I sent it away (it looked awesome in every other way). I just set up Sony and I see SDE at like 6' tops. The interpixel lines are so incredibly thin compared to Epson which had them at like 1/3 of the pixel width compared to like 1/16-1/8 of Sony. Hence the image being completely pixel free for me at what some others might think too close of a sitting distance in my case.

Lets not be apologetic for big shortcomings of certain technologies and say we need to adjust to it, I say lets technology improve and progress until we have no reason to adjust to anything and use it however we want it. Sony succeeded in one area (SDE) but of course it might be trailing Epson in blacks, so there's benefit/drawback to each competing pj, and each one of use decides what he/she can live with.
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post #385 of 1059 Old 04-17-2015, 06:11 AM
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Hi , I have a Sharp 12000U now and have used 4 bulbs in 13 years. This is DLP and screen is 120 inch , Sharp12K mounted ceiling about 20 ft. Room is light controlled 15x25x 8 ft ceiling, we sit 22 ft from the screen. We have an old Daylight 103 inch 4x3 motorized screen we got with are 1st CRT many years ago ( 1992) and the mounting spot is still there at 10 ft. Can anyone tell me if the projectors here would work for me, I have been told either would have better picture. I am asking because its going to be time to put in another bulb $550 for Sharp OEM lamp> thanks.EDIT: don't game and don't care about 3d. Watch movies/Nascar/Dish tv. longer lamp life and cheaper lamps that I can buy without searching all over.

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post #386 of 1059 Old 04-17-2015, 06:44 AM
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Your ZT died in a year??? Did you lose a little fath in the world at that point, because I would have.
Nine months. Then I lost panel uniformity (yellow splotches on an all white background) - had severe issues with IR (even at around 1500 hours) - and then the screen just started growing a "diseased" pattern (ironically, near the hottest processing points of the panel) that spread.

Unrepairable.

Unreplaceable.

Got a refund. I have to say Panasonic handled it well, but it was still disappointing. Got to go projector anyway, thanks to it.
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post #387 of 1059 Old 04-17-2015, 07:54 AM
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Dear All:

I'm thinking of going from my 8700 (around 3 years old) to either the 5030 or the Sony HW40.

however, i'm concerned about the lesser amount of lens shift available on the Sony, as i know the 8700 and the 5030 are virtually the same in terms of available lens shift.

what i'm shocked with, is how the THX mode lumens output of the 8700 and the 5030 are essentially identical, in the upper 600s range! how can that be? shouldn't the 5030 be significantly brighter in every mode?

please see:

- the best color of my 8700, is seemingly THX mode to my non-professional (though enthusiast's) eyes.
HOWEVER, in THX mode, the lumens outputs of the 8700 versus the 5030 is identical!!! what is the brightness benefit then of me upgrading to the 5030, i wonder?

From Projector Central:

"When it comes to pure home theater image quality, THX mode is hard to beat. It has more accurate color than the 5030UB's other image modes, which calibration improves even further, and the best contrast performance as well. THX mode at its factory settings measures 690 lumens with the lamp at full power and 512 lumens at low power. Our calibration, which improved both white balance and color gamut, resulted in a final light output of 479 lumens."

"On our sample of the 8700 UB, THX mode measured 660 lumens with the lens at wide angle, which is similar to our reading on the 8500 UB (637). That's more than enough light for a standard 120" diagonal 16:9 image in a light-controlled room, and a screen of 150" diagonal would not be unreasonable, either. Keep in mind that you can use low lamp mode with any image preset to extend lamp life to 5,000 hours and reduce lumens by 22%."
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post #388 of 1059 Old 04-17-2015, 09:55 AM
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Picking up my HW40 tomorrow to replace my Epson TW9200W (5030UBE). Very curious!
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post #389 of 1059 Old 04-17-2015, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lapino View Post
Picking up my HW40 tomorrow to replace my Epson TW9200W (5030UBE). Very curious!
@lapino :

is the HW40 really an upgrade to the 5030? i thought they were very similar, and it's a matter of taste more than an "upgrade"?

i thought that the LP10000 Epson would be a true upgrade.

maybe i'm wrong, but want to be educated on this. thx and congrats!
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post #390 of 1059 Old 04-17-2015, 12:06 PM
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iq wise, they both have their strengths and weaknesses. main reason to switch for me is the lower input lag on the sony and the fact that it should be a lot quieter than the epson when ceiling mounted.
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