Epson 5030UB vs Sony VPL-HW40ES, anyone else wrestling? - Page 14 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #391 of 1059 Old 04-17-2015, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by lapino View Post
iq wise, they both have their strengths and weaknesses. main reason to switch for me is the lower input lag on the sony and the fact that it should be a lot quieter than the epson when ceiling mounted.
thanks for your reply, lapino.

so does it mean that for video gamers, the sony makes better sense. however, for NON-gamers, where input lag is not really an issue, then it's a matter of preference?

i understand that there is a fan noise question there as well, but i do not hear my 8700 epson's fan sounds at all.

btw, should i use the "high altitude mode" to keep the fan on faster on my 8700? i've never done it before, the high altitude mode has always been off, if i recall correctly.
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post #392 of 1059 Old 04-17-2015, 12:21 PM
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Gaming is really the Sony's biggest advantage. Although unless you're super picky the Epson is fine in fast mode only slight loss of detail. Blacks go to Epson. Both are bright. Both have very good picture (besides dark scenes) which is basically a tie. The Lens shift and placement flexiblity hands down goes to Epson.

If you have a large screen over 120" you very well may need the high lamp mode once calibrated... This is a huge advantage for Epson... 4000 hrs vs the Sony at a measly 2000 and why I couldn't go for the Sony, that and I wanted inky blacks, and I needed to install in a boxed ceiling And Sony didn't have enough lens shift. 2000 hrs is a joke and anyone with a dedicated room at THX recommended or larger screen size with probably be at 120" if not larger. For fan noise.. It's hard to hear from a few feet.. and if it bother you Build a hush box, on 2nd thought even if it doesn't bother build a hush box.. nothing like a hidden projector!

If the screen is 120" or smaller so you can run in low lamp and not burn through lamps at 2x the rate of the competition, you are sure you can place without using keystone, and you are anal about gaming being razor sharp.. go with Sony.

If it's a large screen, you want inky blacks, you want the lamp to last in high mode on a large screen, you need some placement flexibility.. go with Epson. Ohh and gaming looks great... it's not a huge deal.

Both are great but have their pros and cons.
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post #393 of 1059 Old 04-17-2015, 12:32 PM
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In my case, my projector is in a living room, having right above my head. No way to use a hush box. The Epson was very good when I tested it on a table, but as soon as I ceiling mounted it I got annoyed with the fan noise when using high lamp mode (and thus 3D). Tried watching Gravity in 3D on the Epson and stopped after 15mins because the fan noise took me out of the movie. I also game a lot and the 'fast' mode on the Epson definitely decreases the IQ a bit. So that's why I got the Sony.
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post #394 of 1059 Old 04-17-2015, 12:48 PM
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Yea if it's close to your head and you run in high and can't build a hush box.. that can be a deal breaker. Without a hush box you need a little distance. They're both awesome machines.
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post #395 of 1059 Old 04-17-2015, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdy2179 View Post
Gaming is really the Sony's biggest advantage. Although unless you're super picky the Epson is fine in fast mode only slight loss of detail. Blacks go to Epson. Both are bright. Both have very good picture (besides dark scenes) which is basically a tie. The Lens shift and placement flexiblity hands down goes to Epson.

If you have a large screen over 120" you very well may need the high lamp mode once calibrated... This is a huge advantage for Epson... 4000 hrs vs the Sony at a measly 2000 and why I couldn't go for the Sony, that and I wanted inky blacks, and I needed to install in a boxed ceiling And Sony didn't have enough lens shift. 2000 hrs is a joke and anyone with a dedicated room at THX recommended or larger screen size with probably be at 120" if not larger. For fan noise.. It's hard to hear from a few feet.. and if it bother you Build a hush box, on 2nd thought even if it doesn't bother build a hush box.. nothing like a hidden projector!

If the screen is 120" or smaller so you can run in low lamp and not burn through lamps at 2x the rate of the competition, you are sure you can place without using keystone, and you are anal about gaming being razor sharp.. go with Sony.

If it's a large screen, you want inky blacks, you want the lamp to last in high mode on a large screen, you need some placement flexibility.. go with Epson. Ohh and gaming looks great... it's not a huge deal.

Both are great but have their pros and cons.
fyi: my ceiling height = 11 feet
projector upside down mounted on a white pipe around 2 feet lower than the ceiling.
projector is roughly 5 feet behind me, and above my head (as per the above).
Therefore, when seated on a sofa, my head is substantially lower than the projector.

thanks much for that. i have a big question though, and i would really appreciate an answer so i may be educated by this:

why is the THX lumens the same for the 8700 as well as the 5030? that doesn't seem right. however, it is what projector central reported: (i'm totally dumbfounded by this. this is important to me because to my uneducated though an enthusiast's eyes, the THX mode seems the most "true" and realistic and natural)

From Projector Central:

"When it comes to pure home theater image quality, THX mode is hard to beat. It has more accurate color than the 5030UB's other image modes, which calibration improves even further, and the best contrast performance as well. THX mode at its factory settings measures 690 lumens with the lamp at full power and 512 lumens at low power. Our calibration, which improved both white balance and color gamut, resulted in a final light output of 479 lumens."

"On our sample of the 8700 UB, THX mode measured 660 lumens with the lens at wide angle, which is similar to our reading on the 8500 UB (637). That's more than enough light for a standard 120" diagonal 16:9 image in a light-controlled room, and a screen of 150" diagonal would not be unreasonable, either. Keep in mind that you can use low lamp mode with any image preset to extend lamp life to 5,000 hours and reduce lumens by 22%."

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post #396 of 1059 Old 04-17-2015, 12:59 PM
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Calibrating a Projector will always give less than maximum output. Projector A may have a higher max lumen than projector B, But once both are calibrated Projector B may be brighter. Of course you can try another mode that may not be as close but brighter.. but still close enough.

It's rare for a projector to actually have a mode that needs little or no calibration. Thankfully Espon has done just that.
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post #397 of 1059 Old 04-17-2015, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by cdy2179 View Post
Calibrating a Projector will always give less than maximum output. Projector A may have a higher max lumen than projector B, But once both are calibrated Projector B may be brighter. Of course you can try another mode that may not be as close but brighter.. but still close enough.

It's rare for a projector to actually have a mode that needs little or no calibration. Thankfully Espon has done just that.
ok, so as an owner of the 8700 who uses it in the most pleasing mode, the THX mode, does that mean upgrading to the 5030 would yield no benefit, if one were to use the 5030 in its THX mode as well?

i am using the 8700 in the THX mode merely by using my eye - it looks most natural and balanced to me. i'm not a pro nor a novice, merely an enthusiast who decided to not calibrate my projector.
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post #398 of 1059 Old 04-17-2015, 09:23 PM
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Thx mode has nothing to do with image quality. The 8700 is dated, and the 5030ub should have noticeably blacker levels, and a much better overall picture. The 5030 has noticeably blacker blacks than the previous 5020 for instance. Every new model is usually a step above the previous.
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post #399 of 1059 Old 04-17-2015, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by cdy2179 View Post
Thx mode has nothing to do with image quality. The 8700 is dated, and the 5030ub should have noticeably blacker levels, and a much better overall picture. The 5030 has noticeably blacker blacks than the previous 5020 for instance. Every new model is usually a step above the previous.
So, if i were to understand your comment, the fact that the 5030 has noticeably darker black levels, EVEN THOUGH the THX lumens output as measured by Projector Central is essentially the same as the lumens output of the 8700, the fact that the 5030 has darker blacks should yield a very different picture quality?

it's just hard to believe since both of these projectors measure out to be high 600s lumens in THX mode -- how can the image be so different if they were both 600 lumens?
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post #400 of 1059 Old 04-17-2015, 10:00 PM
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I currently have the Sony, and am not really liking the reality creation. Even with the settings on minimum, and turning NR and MPEG NR to medium, there is still a lot of artifacts and is too artificially over sharpened. Turning off the RC, it seems like Sony purposely blurred the image so you would want to use RC. Adjusting focus as tight as possible and turning sharpness up to 5 (as high as I can before I get white around boarders) still isn't as sharp as my HC2030.
Also, my panel alignment is off, and I suspect defective. After adjusting the alignment as best as possible, any white image with an edge or boarder has a red/purple tinge to it.


I have a couple tall floor lamps that I bought bigger/thicker shades for, so even with 45w bulb and double shaded, one lamp 5' to the left of the screen causes a pretty strong loss in shadow detail on the left side of the screen. This is in game mode at high lamp setting. 12.5' from a 120" Cinegrey 1.0 screen (projector not mounted yet as Im still testing, doesn't "fully" fit the screen this close).




Im going to send it back and am thinking of trying the Epson 5025UB. With the better blacks, in either dynamic or living room modes, full power, will it be able to have even slightly more shadow detail with moderate ambient lighting then the sony? Im also getting a white 1.1 screen sent to me from Elite screens as my grey sparkles too much.


Setting the HC2030 to fast instead of fine causes a noticeable quality hit to text, but game images seem ok. Im assuming fast on the 5025/5030 would be the same or even better?




I paid $2125 for open box scratch and dent on the Sony since its not on sale anywhere under $2500 right now (no scratches or dents on it though), and can get the 5025UB on sale for $1700 now with a free 2nd bulb. That is a $600+ difference, and I will be using the projector 6+ hours per day. I figure at 4k hours high lamp mode, two lamps should last me until 4K projectors are in this price range.

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post #401 of 1059 Old 04-17-2015, 10:15 PM
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So, if i were to understand your comment, the fact that the 5030 has noticeably darker black levels, EVEN THOUGH the THX lumens output as measured by Projector Central is essentially the same as the lumens output of the 8700, the fact that the 5030 has darker blacks should yield a very different picture quality?

it's just hard to believe since both of these projectors measure out to be high 600s lumens in THX mode -- how can the image be so different if they were both 600 lumens?
A cheap 720p projector could have the same calibrated lumen output. That has nothing to do with image quality or blacks, only light output. The blacks should be better than your 8700 because the iris get better and better with each new model and blacks darker and darker.
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post #402 of 1059 Old 04-19-2015, 12:57 AM
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Installed my HW40 yesterday, coming from a TW9200/TW5030. Mind that what I'm writing here is pure subjective, but maybe it can help with someone needing to decide between both. I loved the Epson for it's picture quality and settings, but hated the noise it made when in high lamp mode and the high input lag. So I sold the whole thing, and got the Sony. Also keep in mind that I have about the worst situation you can use a projector in : light ceilings, bright large windows, shades that do no make the living room dark enough, no way to get a hdmi cable to the projector so need to rely on wireless hdmi and a screen that has been installed here almost 10yrs ago with a too high gain (1.3). Here's what I find after installing the HW40:

pro's
+ input lag is near non-existent, fantastic gaming projector
+ the Sony is at least as bright as the Epson, in fact, in a darkened room it seems even brighter
+ the noise this thing makes, or lack thereof, is just bliss. amazingly quiet projector
+ no that it ever bothered me, but SDE is completely non-existent, image is butter smooth. I never took notice of this on the Epson unless I looked for at after reading some complaints. After installing the Sony, the difference is pretty clear.
+ when not using reality creation, the image has a very cinematic look to it. Need to tweak this a bit, when using it image (especially in older movies) seems quite grainy. I'll leave it off for now.
+ fantastic calibrated colours thx to my pro dealer

cons
- damn this thing is heavy, a lot heavier than the Epson (about 2kg more). I'm constantly worried my ceiling mount won't hold
- black levels are definitely a little worse than the Epson, but keep in mind my situation/screen !
- the Epson had less cable clutter, thx to the included wireless. I'm now using Marmitek Gigaview 821 (which works better than the Epson btw, thx to no line of sight requirement), but this adds an extra power supply, hdmi cable etc. Not that clean a view (will post pics later)
- I will miss the auto lens cover
- 3D looks pretty good with the ir glasses, but there seems to be more ghosting than on the Epson and have experienced quite a bit of flicker from the Sony 3D glasses when briefly checking "Frozen 3D" from PS4 yesterday. Need to look into this, possibly setting (tips welcome!)


Conclusion:
For me, this was a swap from heaven. The projector is now very quiet, I can game on PS4 without having to put the projector in 'fast' mode and losing image quality, the image is at least as good and even a little better than the Epson (but losing some black level) and the wife finds it a very attractive device. So win for me

Now saving up so we can finally start building an addition to our house, then I'll be able to install a dedicated cinema room (about 3,5m x 4,5m) which will have dark walls and ceiling, lots of pre-installed cables, no more wireless hassle and pitch black possibilities. Not to menion my 'own' dad's room for gaming and movies
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post #403 of 1059 Old 04-19-2015, 09:05 AM
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it's just hard to believe since both of these projectors measure out to be high 600s lumens in THX mode -- how can the image be so different if they were both 600 lumens?
Take 600 calories worth of fruit, nuts, and vegetables and compare it to 600 calories worth of Doritos. That's how they can be different. Not that I'm comparing the 8700 to Doritos, but you get my drift.
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Take 600 calories worth of fruit, nuts, and vegetables and compare it to 600 calories worth of Doritos. That's how they can be different. Not that I'm comparing the 8700 to Doritos, but you get my drift.
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Originally Posted by cdy2179 View Post
A cheap 720p projector could have the same calibrated lumen output. That has nothing to do with image quality or blacks, only light output. The blacks should be better than your 8700 because the iris get better and better with each new model and blacks darker and darker.
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Originally Posted by cdy2179 View Post
Thx mode has nothing to do with image quality. The 8700 is dated, and the 5030ub should have noticeably blacker levels, and a much better overall picture. The 5030 has noticeably blacker blacks than the previous 5020 for instance. Every new model is usually a step above the previous.
Thanks to the replies, @Kilgore , @cdy2179 :

i do see what you are saying, that 600 lumens is not always equal just like 600 calories would not be the same either. however, it would seem to me that the 5030 would not be brighter than my 8700 in THX mode but it would be a better quality image with the same level of brightness.

that said, a better quality image is great, but it doesn't help address the light leakage during the days from the cracks in-between my sets of roller blinds.

so, i suppose that i'd have to be satisfied with an improved image but have to set my expectations to it being no brighter (during the day) than my current 8700.

it's a good thing that i rarely watch tv during the day!

wish the 5030 would be brighter though...
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post #405 of 1059 Old 04-19-2015, 12:15 PM
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Thx mode is really for a light controlled room. I'd select a brighter mode and calibrate it.
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post #406 of 1059 Old 04-19-2015, 01:29 PM
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Thx mode is really for a light controlled room. I'd select a brighter mode and calibrate it.
In fact, I found that after measuring the default modes with CalMan and my 1Display 3 Pro, I found that at 100% Saturation, all the RGBCYM colors in THX mode on the 5030 were undersaturated. Moving to Cinema mode gave me oversaturated colors, but gave me plenty of headroom to calibrate.
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post #407 of 1059 Old 04-20-2015, 07:37 AM
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I think, in the end, my room may have defeated the projector idea that once seemed so amazing.

SDE due to unchangeable seating distance on the Epson (everything else was PERFECT on it, PERFECT I say.)

And poor blacks due to my ambient conditions on the Sony.

After another week's worth of content (Game of Thrones episodes, Harry Potter movies, etc) - the bad blacks on the Sony are unbearable to me. Through no fault of the unit - I accept that it's my own viewing conditions that cause it. But considering how happy I was with the Epson's blacks, I didnt think the switch would cause such a loss.

I bought an ND 0.3 filter, I'll get it Tuesday and play with it all weekend. If I can't make it work, the Sony will have to go back (return period is up in a week). The bad blacks take me out of the movie even more than the SDE on the Epson did.

At that point, I don't know what I'll do.

Go back to the 5030? All of a sudden the SDE seems like a liveable issue. Get a 65" 4K edgelit LED and suffer from light bleed and flashlighting?!

All of a sudden I regret my ZT60 dying. And I can't go back to my Kuro as my main, going from 92" to 50" will be shocking, plus its suffering from the dreaded red tint now in its 6th year.

ARRRGH!!! My audio is perfect but now video is acting up on me. A/V gods, how have I offended thee?!?!
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I think, in the end, my room may have defeated the projector idea that once seemed so amazing.

SDE due to unchangeable seating distance on the Epson (everything else was PERFECT on it, PERFECT I say.)

And poor blacks due to my ambient conditions on the Sony.

After another week's worth of content (Game of Thrones episodes, Harry Potter movies, etc) - the bad blacks on the Sony are unbearable to me. Through no fault of the unit - I accept that it's my own viewing conditions that cause it. But considering how happy I was with the Epson's blacks, I didnt think the switch would cause such a loss.

I bought an ND 0.3 filter, I'll get it Tuesday and play with it all weekend. If I can't make it work, the Sony will have to go back (return period is up in a week). The bad blacks take me out of the movie even more than the SDE on the Epson did.

At that point, I don't know what I'll do.

Go back to the 5030? All of a sudden the SDE seems like a liveable issue. Get a 65" 4K edgelit LED and suffer from light bleed and flashlighting?!

All of a sudden I regret my ZT60 dying. And I can't go back to my Kuro as my main, going from 92" to 50" will be shocking, plus its suffering from the dreaded red tint now in its 6th year.

ARRRGH!!! My audio is perfect but now video is acting up on me. A/V gods, how have I offended thee?!?!
Don't remember if you said what screen you have, but iirc in the picture it was white, right? Maybe try a grey one?
Also, are you using the Sony in full power or low power mode? I imagine you could get away with an ND4 filter in full power just fine. I had ordered a three pack for my HC2030 (ND2/4/8) and found the 4 to work best for me. The 2 didn't seem to do too much. I just remove it for 3D for essentially equal brightness in 2D and 3D.


If you do go TV again, I was considering the same, and came close to getting the Vizio P series 70" at Costco for $2K. Its uniformity and blacks are great from being FALD.
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Don't remember if you said what screen you have, but iirc in the picture it was white, right? Maybe try a grey one?
Also, are you using the Sony in full power or low power mode? I imagine you could get away with an ND4 filter in full power just fine. I had ordered a three pack for my HC2030 (ND2/4/8) and found the 4 to work best for me. The 2 didn't seem to do too much. I just remove it for 3D for essentially equal brightness in 2D and 3D.


If you do go TV again, I was considering the same, and came close to getting the Vizio P series 70" at Costco for $2K. Its uniformity and blacks are great from being FALD.
It's 10% gray, Munsell N9 gray, approximately 0.8 gain (reflects about ~82% of light back)

I'm using the Sony in low power mode. I grabbed the ND2. So I'm hoping for the best.

I could always build another screen if it came down to it, using maybe N7 or N8 gray. But I want to see what the filter does before I lose all hope, because I'm getting there.
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It's 10% gray, Munsell N9 gray, approximately 0.8 gain (reflects about ~82% of light back)

I'm using the Sony in low power mode. I grabbed the ND2. So I'm hoping for the best.

I could always build another screen if it came down to it, using maybe N7 or N8 gray. But I want to see what the filter does before I lose all hope, because I'm getting there.

I knew the Sony wasn't as good at blacks but damn... didn't know it was that big of a difference. When I got my 5030 the guy at projector central said if blacks were priority get the 5030 hands down.

How close do you sit and how big is the screen?
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post #411 of 1059 Old 04-20-2015, 09:12 AM
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I knew the Sony wasn't as good at blacks but damn... didn't know it was that big of a difference. When I got my 5030 the guy at projector central said if blacks were priority get the 5030 hands down.

How close do you sit and how big is the screen?
There's a picture here of my viewing conditions, a page or two back - not optimal. Those also play a part. But since they didnt mess with the Epson's blacks, which I found very acceptable; and the going reviews say that the Sony isn't that much of a black level drop off, I didn't think it would be so bad.

But in my eyes, it was.

I sit exactly 7'9" away (just lasered it to be precise, eyes to screen), projector sits 11'6" away, 7' from floor, and the screen is 92".
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post #412 of 1059 Old 04-20-2015, 01:12 PM
 
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I think, in the end, my room may have defeated the projector idea that once seemed so amazing.

SDE due to unchangeable seating distance on the Epson (everything else was PERFECT on it, PERFECT I say.)

And poor blacks due to my ambient conditions on the Sony.

After another week's worth of content (Game of Thrones episodes, Harry Potter movies, etc) - the bad blacks on the Sony are unbearable to me. Through no fault of the unit - I accept that it's my own viewing conditions that cause it. But considering how happy I was with the Epson's blacks, I didnt think the switch would cause such a loss.

I bought an ND 0.3 filter, I'll get it Tuesday and play with it all weekend. If I can't make it work, the Sony will have to go back (return period is up in a week). The bad blacks take me out of the movie even more than the SDE on the Epson did.

At that point, I don't know what I'll do.

Go back to the 5030? All of a sudden the SDE seems like a liveable issue. Get a 65" 4K edgelit LED and suffer from light bleed and flashlighting?!

All of a sudden I regret my ZT60 dying. And I can't go back to my Kuro as my main, going from 92" to 50" will be shocking, plus its suffering from the dreaded red tint now in its 6th year.

ARRRGH!!! My audio is perfect but now video is acting up on me. A/V gods, how have I offended thee?!?!
First of all I'm sorry to hear that you are going through all this. I too have been disappointed with a display purchase so I know what it feels like. But I'm also a bit surprised to hear that you hate the Sony so much.

I purchased a 40ES about two months ago in anticipation of a house we're having built for us (I figure better to buy the gear now when I have the cash rather than right after putting down a huge down payment on the house). Up until yesterday I'd only been able to test it on a plain wall (light tan or 'stormy' blue). But I now have it on a cheap portable screen that I was able to borrow. The 100 inch screen is white and I assume about 1.0 gain. The throw distance is about 12 feet and I sit anywhere from 9-11 feet from it. So far I only watch blu-rays on it...that will be most if not all of my viewing on it. The room is not perfect...light walls (the stormy blue I mentioned earlier) with a white ceiling about a foot above the screen. Dark curtains on the windows.

Despite the less than perfect environment I LOVE this projector. No screen door even about five feet from it and the image is nice and sharp with Reality Creation on (and I find a Darbee layered with it is even better).

Now I only paid $2k for mine which might help me love it so much. And I'm really looking forward to our new house and a better room (dark gray walls and ceiling). I plan on using a masking system after we move (although I wonder in a better room if it will even be needed....when my current room gets dark the letterboxes pretty much look like the walls).

My only complaint is that I detect flicker in low lamp mode but otherwise I think this thing has a great combination of features: Plenty bright for my screen size, no SDE, no RBE, good motion (I run with smoothing set to Low and it's much less objectionable than the lowest smoothing setting on my Samsung F8500), perfect uniformity and ridiculously quiet. The lens shift seems to work well and has a lot of room to play with. And while I had to make more panel alignment adjustments than some folks might feel comfortable with they seem to have worked. And the three year warranty is awesome. Samsung only gave me one year on my F8500 and it's already had a panel replaced.

I know it's hard but give up the Kuro love and enjoy what we have. I'm totally down with inky black levels and notice the difference between a plasma and this projector but the plasmas I've owned had other trade offs (worse uniformity...small size etc) and the 40ES does what I want...provides a movie theater experience at home (Next time to you go to the theater make note of how 'bad' the black levels look there...).
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post #413 of 1059 Old 04-20-2015, 01:48 PM
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I have to agree, coming from a panny VT25 I do notice a difference in black level but not to the point where it's concerning... and as I've switched to watching this projector solely for about 3 weeks now I don't notice it at all. I'm just totally enamoured with this thing and I haven't even had it calibrated yet. (Michael Chen from tlvexp.ca is booked for his Toronto stay in July)

When comparing the two projectors I'd take lighter blacks over the couple shortcomings exhibited by the Epson.


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One bad thing about the Sony (and probably Epson) is the weight gain. Since I installed mine, I've put on about 10lbs. I spend a lot more time watching movies and playing games than I ever did prior to buying a projector. The immersive experience is simply incredible. (However, my wife and dog are starting to get irritated from my neglecting them lol)
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One bad thing about the Sony (and probably Epson) is the weight gain. Since I installed mine, I've put on about 10lbs. I spend a lot more time watching movies and playing games than I ever did prior to buying a projector. The immersive experience is simply incredible. (However, my wife and dog are starting to get irritated from my neglecting them lol)
I'm more worried about my 40ES's effect on our economy's fragile recovery. Once I get this projector into a better room the only thing that will get me into a 'real' theater is a movie that I want to see immediately.

Don't invest in popcorn futures....
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Hate is a strong word. I don't hate the Sony. I've just been used to a Kuro for 5 years and a ZT for 1 after that. It kind of changes the ball game to have way lesser blacks. If I can fix the blacks on the Sony with this ND filter, I will consider it better than the Epson. But in SDE vs Black Levels for "loss of immersion" - black levels will take me out of it more than SDE.


I found the perfect way to love Reality Creation with some NR on Low. So I'm OK with that now.


Part of me wonders what happens if I keep the Sony, and if the filter fails to build a lower gain screen - or, go back to the Epson, and build a smaller screen to remove SDE (Say, 75 instead of 92)


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Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
First of all I'm sorry to hear that you are going through all this. I too have been disappointed with a display purchase so I know what it feels like. But I'm also a bit surprised to hear that you hate the Sony so much.

I purchased a 40ES about two months ago in anticipation of a house we're having built for us (I figure better to buy the gear now when I have the cash rather than right after putting down a huge down payment on the house). Up until yesterday I'd only been able to test it on a plain wall (light tan or 'stormy' blue). But I now have it on a cheap portable screen that I was able to borrow. The 100 inch screen is white and I assume about 1.0 gain. The throw distance is about 12 feet and I sit anywhere from 9-11 feet from it. So far I only watch blu-rays on it...that will be most if not all of my viewing on it. The room is not perfect...light walls (the stormy blue I mentioned earlier) with a white ceiling about a foot above the screen. Dark curtains on the windows.

Despite the less than perfect environment I LOVE this projector. No screen door even about five feet from it and the image is nice and sharp with Reality Creation on (and I find a Darbee layered with it is even better).

Now I only paid $2k for mine which might help me love it so much. And I'm really looking forward to our new house and a better room (dark gray walls and ceiling). I plan on using a masking system after we move (although I wonder in a better room if it will even be needed....when my current room gets dark the letterboxes pretty much look like the walls).

My only complaint is that I detect flicker in low lamp mode but otherwise I think this thing has a great combination of features: Plenty bright for my screen size, no SDE, no RBE, good motion (I run with smoothing set to Low and it's much less objectionable than the lowest smoothing setting on my Samsung F8500), perfect uniformity and ridiculously quiet. The lens shift seems to work well and has a lot of room to play with. And while I had to make more panel alignment adjustments than some folks might feel comfortable with they seem to have worked. And the three year warranty is awesome. Samsung only gave me one year on my F8500 and it's already had a panel replaced.

I know it's hard but give up the Kuro love and enjoy what we have. I'm totally down with inky black levels and notice the difference between a plasma and this projector but the plasmas I've owned had other trade offs (worse uniformity...small size etc) and the 40ES does what I want...provides a movie theater experience at home (Next time to you go to the theater make note of how 'bad' the black levels look there...).
I do notice the bad black levels at the theater, that's why I was always grateful to have the Kuro and ZT at home. Those were the best! Well, now I have to move on. So we'll see. I'll report back tomorrow night with my filter news...
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Hate is a strong word. I don't hate the Sony. I've just been used to a Kuro for 5 years and a ZT for 1 after that. It kind of changes the ball game to have way lesser blacks. If I can fix the blacks on the Sony with this ND filter, I will consider it better than the Epson. But in SDE vs Black Levels for "loss of immersion" - black levels will take me out of it more than SDE.


I found the perfect way to love Reality Creation with some NR on Low. So I'm OK with that now.


Part of me wonders what happens if I keep the Sony, and if the filter fails to build a lower gain screen - or, go back to the Epson, and build a smaller screen to remove SDE (Say, 75 instead of 92)




I do notice the bad black levels at the theater, that's why I was always grateful to have the Kuro and ZT at home. Those were the best! Well, now I have to move on. So we'll see. I'll report back tomorrow night with my filter news...
Ugh on 75 or 92 inch screen. Not sure I would bother with a projector for that. People here say my 106 inch is too small at about 12 feet.


If you want the best projector blacks you'll have to improve your room and pay through the nose for a JVC. I would have purchased a JVC X35 if I could have found one despite its reputation for poor motion handling but the rest of the line was too rich for my blood. Especially since motion blur seems to be less of an issue to me at these large screen sizes...I see a ton of detail despite the blur just due to the size of the image.


I'm watching Avengers now that the sun has gone down and it looks great despite my less than perfect room. And the shadow detail is excellent. I'm going to watch something letter boxed next to see if they bother me at all but I'll have a masking system eventually anyways.
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post #418 of 1059 Old 04-20-2015, 06:33 PM
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Ugh on 75 or 92 inch screen. Not sure I would bother with a projector for that. People here say my 106 inch is too small at about 12 feet.


If you want the best projector blacks you'll have to improve your room and pay through the nose for a JVC. I would have purchased a JVC X35 if I could have found one despite its reputation for poor motion handling but the rest of the line was too rich for my blood. Especially since motion blur seems to be less of an issue to me at these large screen sizes...I see a ton of detail despite the blur just due to the size of the image.


I'm watching Avengers now that the sun has gone down and it looks great despite my less than perfect room. And the shadow detail is excellent. I'm going to watch something letter boxed next to see if they bother me at all but I'll have a masking system eventually anyways.
Have you SEEN my room? I can't go bigger than 92". My seating distance can't go further than 7'9". People here get too caught up with the aesthetics of my room to complain about its less-than-ideal environment.
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post #419 of 1059 Old 04-20-2015, 07:04 PM
 
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Have you SEEN my room? I can't go bigger than 92". My seating distance can't go further than 7'9". People here get too caught up with the aesthetics of my room to complain about its less-than-ideal environment.
Well NO, but I did go back a few pages and look at a picture of it.


Not a room I would attempt to put a projector in myself. If I had to deal with that much ambient light right now I would try to find one of the last of the 64 inch F8500s. The black levels are not as good as the ZT60 (My 51 inch F8500 only gets down to 0.04 ftL) but IMO it looks pretty good in a dark room and excellent in a bright one since it can hold it's black level under bright lights due to its great filter. And the size would be closer to what I would expect in that space.


In related news I'm watching Gravity on my 40es and the letterboxes ARE a bit gray during the brighter scenes but look pretty good in the darker portions of the movie. Which suggests to me the screen is getting hit by some reflected light that a better room might absorb. I'm loving the shadow detail visible when Dr. Stone tumbles through space alone.
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post #420 of 1059 Old 04-21-2015, 04:55 AM
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Well NO, but I did go back a few pages and look at a picture of it.

Not a room I would attempt to put a projector in myself. If I had to deal with that much ambient light right now I would try to find one of the last of the 64 inch F8500s. The black levels are not as good as the ZT60 (My 51 inch F8500 only gets down to 0.04 ftL) but IMO it looks pretty good in a dark room and excellent in a bright one since it can hold it's black level under bright lights due to its great filter. And the size would be closer to what I would expect in that space.

In related news I'm watching Gravity on my 40es and the letterboxes ARE a bit gray during the brighter scenes but look pretty good in the darker portions of the movie. Which suggests to me the screen is getting hit by some reflected light that a better room might absorb. I'm loving the shadow detail visible when Dr. Stone tumbles through space alone.

I did the legwork prior to the install - I tested out the feasibility by using an Epson 2030 and a DIY screen (read: matte white paint rolled onto a 4x8 plywood sheet) and discovered it worked well. Using that as my basis for success, I moved onto the 5030 and a 1.1gain screen from VApex. The screen was a wash, literally, I needed something much less reflective in my bright ass room. Built my 2nd screen at 0.8g and it worked like a charm.


I never had success with Samsung products - TVs & old HTiBs back in the day - so I've never had any desire to make it work again. It's just that nowadays all the TVs, thanks to customers wanting skinnier and skinnier TVs, are edgelit LEDs prone to clouding, flashlighting, blooming, and light bleed. Yuck. That would be horribly distracting. FLAD displays are my option, but the top end Sonys that feature it at 6,000 for a 65". No way!


Thanks to my masking system, black bars aren't a problem for me at all. It's the image itself. The Epson worked here, the Sony doesn't. But hey, my 0.3 ND filter gets here by day's end. Go time. I really want this filter to work, because I like not dealing with SDE at all.
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