New LG PF1500 LED Projector - Page 109 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3241 of 3533 Old 11-18-2017, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
You need to remove the top and bottom housing from the projector to get at the back of the lens focus ring to be able to pop it out. There are tabs that need to be pushed on to pop it free without breaking it. Takes about 5 minutes of tear down to get to it.
Can you guide me on how to push the tabs to open. I fear that I may break them. Is there any tool which could be used. If possible please post pics of how to open, it would be of great help. I need to open the projector (PF1000U) to change the mirror.
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post #3242 of 3533 Old 11-18-2017, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
You need to remove the top and bottom housing from the projector to get at the back of the lens focus ring to be able to pop it out. There are tabs that need to be pushed on to pop it free without breaking it. Takes about 5 minutes of tear down to get to it.
Can you guide me on how to push the tabs to open. I fear that I may break them. Is there any tool which could be used. If possible please post pics of how to open, it would be of great help. I need to open the projector (PF1000U) to change the mirror.
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post #3243 of 3533 Old 11-19-2017, 02:47 PM
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Just a note. My PF1500 just hit 13,000 hours. Please don't ask how. Seems to be running like new.
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post #3244 of 3533 Old 11-19-2017, 03:49 PM
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Just a note. My PF1500 just hit 13,000 hours. Please don't ask how. Seems to be running like new.
13,000 hours = 1.5 years of running 24 hours a day, so you obviously went on an 18-month cruise around the world and accidentally left the PF1500 running.
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post #3245 of 3533 Old 11-19-2017, 04:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Just a note. My PF1500 just hit 13,000 hours. Please don't ask how. Seems to be running like new.
Wow! That's a lot of watching. I've had mine since they first started shipping and only have 2513 hours on it. Seems like I have spent more hours reading and posting on this thread.

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post #3246 of 3533 Old 11-21-2017, 02:53 AM
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Maybe an 18 month coma. I don't recall a cruise. It's our regular TV, and our adult daughter's and her kids'. I hope it doesn't caclulate hours like we do because I can't imagine it having been on 18 out of the 28 months we've had it. Or 15:25/day, 24/7.

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post #3247 of 3533 Old 11-26-2017, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by rtchinn View Post
There is no "theoretical" limit on the image size... it's simply a matter of this:
Image Brightness = available lumens divided by screen area.

With an 80" diagonal screen, the image will cover an area of 19 square feet. The 1400 'effective' lumens is spread out over that 19 sq.ft. and the resulting image will be 36 fL.

On a 150" diagonal screen, the image will cover an area of 66.7 square feet... that's 3.5 times as much screen area to illuminate with the same 1400 lumens... so your resulting image will be about 10 fL link to calculator.

The lens has the capability to reach "infinity focus", so as I said, there's no theoretical limit on screen/image size... it's simply a matter of ever diminishing image brightness due to spreading your "available lumens" out over a larger area. I've used this projector outdoors on a >200" canvas screen, and it's still enjoyable... but that was in near pitch-darkness, and not "home theater" conditions where I'd expect higher image quality.... sometimes referred to as "pop", where the image has sufficient brightness to stimulate the viewers adequately... which most engineers say is no less than 12-13 fL.

BTW... LED and Laser projectors from LG (and most others) are not rated in "real ANSI lumens", but rather . This is due to not having a "color wheel" as typical DLP projector have. If you read about "Color Light Output" ratings in projectors you will understand this better.

It boils down to this..."normal" lamp-based/color-wheel DLP projectors have the technical ability to output non-color-wheel-filtered light to the screen. They do this by providing a "clear" section in the color wheel, which gives them a time slot to output un-filtered light, with the full light spectrum of the arc-lamp. This is good for classrooms and business presentations where extra brightness is required, and color was less important (this is the market that DLP projectors were originally designed for... not Home Theater).

This creates an artificially high "ANSI Lumen" rating, because that old rating system was based strictly on a White and Black checkerboard pattern... no "true image colors". Also, the "White" color is not even specified, so the manufacturer can output any "White" color they want - and due to the uneven light spectrum of a typical Metal-Halide "HID" or "" lamp, it's usually far from the D6500 CIE specification.

Three-chip LCD (and 3-DLP) projectors have been at a disadvantage in the "specsmanship" war ever since... because they do not have the ability to output "unfiltered" white light, since all light goes through the permanent color filters on them... Red/Green/Blue.

Maybe someday the industry "projection review engineers" will create a "Calibrated Color Brightness" standard, where the projectors are required to output a well defined spectrum of balanced colors... that will put everybody on level ground for true comparisons... and LED projectors will finally shine bright in "specsmanship".

This article addresses this issue:

After calibration, the calibrated brightness achieved was 763 lumens in brightest mode. This was plenty to light up a 120" diagonal image on a 1.0 gain screen in a darkened room with very good color, contrast, and shadow detail. Lowest brightness mode cut lumen output by about 45% to 422 lumens. This is still plenty for a 92" to 100" diagonal image if a low gain screen is used. The medium brightness setting falls right between the two with 583 lumens falling on the screen."

That "763 lumens" mentioned would be what I called a "Calibrated Color Brightness"... "real world home theater" type color calibration.

BTW... the LED lifetime in the PF1500 is rated for (as you noted) 30,000 hours. While "theoretical" LED lifetime is rated at full brightness, there are other issues at-play. When ran at full power, there is significantly more heat generated in the unit. While the cooling fans do run at increased speed to help this condition, the heat is still much higher... and many electronic components are therefore exposed to this elevated operating temperature, which shortens their lifetime... even LED's. At a bare minimum, I always recommend running "high altitude" option as ON, to run the cooling fans at maximum speed to help cool things down as much as possible. I run my PF1500 at Medium power (Medium Energy Savings), and still run "High Altitude" setting ON.

I purchased my unit as a "DOA" unit, it was not working as a result of an overheated component that I had to replace. Now... while it's possible that this component was defective when new, the exact same symptoms my "dead" unit exhibited (before repair) have been mentioned by many other owners of PF1500's that have failed... and unfortunately after the warranty had expired. (I still hope to find more like mine that I can repair, and use for further upgrade experiments I have planned... I can't use my unit for experimenting and for family entertainment simultaneously)

The first upgrade project I have planned is determining why it's not possible to get a "full-screen focus"... there is always some compromise needed to reach a "usable focus" with these projectors. I'm confident I can resolve it, but it's something that will take significant research and time. If I had not had many other projectors prior to this, I may not have noticed the deficiency... but it's FAR from "home theater" image quality in my mind... but it does have the DNA in the design to reach that level... it's just that LG didn't care to press the optical engine manufacturer for that last 20% of possible image quality.

Also on my list is to improve the "real world" contrast ratio... it's nowhere near the rated 150,000:1 "specsmanship" published numbers... it's more like 300:1, or even less (real world, personally measured). There are multiple issues at the root of this problem, some are easily solvable (like my external snap-on lens mask that I make to eliminate light-spill onto surrounding surfaces), while others require internal lens mods... of which I've determined at least 2 of them are resolvable... but require internal lens mods.
Hi rtchinn,

Thanks for the detailed info.

I built an anamorphic lens and a 2.40:1 screen so that I could get the most out of my old LG HS-201 with its limited pixels and brightness. My lens is similar to the one on zuggsoft.com/theater/prism.htm. The projector is connected to a Win7 PC and is mainly used for widescreen movies. The lens worked really well but was tricky to align and (due to a very low loft ceiling) would get bumped out of position by unfortunate visitors.

Now that I have the PF1500 I am debating whether to remove the anamorphic lens and move the projector further from the screen and limit the resolution (from the PC) to 1920x800. Thus the new projector would be permanently 2.40:1 - but I will not be using about 25% of the pixels and It will be further away from the screen - so reducing the brightness.

I used the calculator that you linked to (see calculation images attached) and it shows 51 FL for the 16:9 vs 28 FL for the widescreen. This seems like a big drop. Am I missing something? Will it still be bright enough?

Happy to hear your thoughts about which approach is better: Anamorphic lens using all the pixels of the PF1500W vs. widescreen resolution/further from screen/less pixels.

Thanks
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post #3248 of 3533 Old 11-27-2017, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by gf1234 View Post
Now that I have the PF1500 I am debating whether to remove the anamorphic lens and move the projector further from the screen and limit the resolution (from the PC) to 1920x800. Thus the new projector would be permanently 2.40:1 - but I will not be using about 25% of the pixels and It will be further away from the screen - so reducing the brightness.
I don't understand why you'd want to limit the resolution, that forces scaling of the media. If you need to scale, you only want to do it once...
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post #3249 of 3533 Old 11-27-2017, 06:47 AM
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I don't understand why you'd want to limit the resolution, that forces scaling of the media. If you need to scale, you only want to do it once...
Hi gregoryperkins. When you suggest scale once - where would you do it?

My fixed screen is 2.40:1 - so I need to either use the anamorphic lens - or reduce the resolution of the PC (otherwise the 16:9 Windows desktop is projected onto the walls above and below the screen). You are correct that some content will need to scale - but 1080 movies that are 2.40:1 fit perfectly into 1920x800 - so I'm pretty much stuck on this one type of content.

Now that you mention it I haven't really figured out what will happen if I connect a 16:9 source like HDTV - this will also project off the screen if I move the projector back.
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post #3250 of 3533 Old 11-27-2017, 06:53 AM
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[QUOTE=gf1234;55207940]When you suggest scale once - where would you do it?
/QUOTE]

You do it wherever the best scaler is. My receiver tries to scale too, so you have to turn that off if you want the projector to do it. By reducing the resolution of the pc, you are scaling the source from its native resolution.
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post #3251 of 3533 Old 12-09-2017, 06:33 PM
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Real cinema (24p) feature broken?

Just turned on Real Cinema feature on my PF1500W hooked up with Apple TV 4K, hoping to get 48hz (or at least a multiple of 24hz) instead of 3:2 pulldown on 60hz, but a close look at the screen made me doubt.

Then 240fps video recording with iPad Pro clearly showed that they're still on 3:2 pulldown alternating one frame for 12/240s (30fps) and another for 8/240s (20fps). I was also able to tell the projector didn't really change output refresh rate because webOS UI didn't get affected by any resolution / refresh settings from ATV at all. Enabling Real Cinema, setting device type to PC, or choosing game mode didn't make any difference in the output.

As I'm now leaning towards thinking DLP chipset in this projector is unable support native 24hz (or 48hz) refresh rate and Real Cinema is just a non-working gimmick, does anyone have experience with 24p support with PF1500W (or PF1500 and other siblings) here?

Last edited by tomyun; 12-09-2017 at 10:23 PM.
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post #3252 of 3533 Old 12-09-2017, 07:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tomyun View Post
Just turned on Real Cinema feature on my PF1500W hooked up with Apple TV 4K, hoping to get 48hz (or aat least a multiple of 24hz) instead of 3:2 pulldown on 60hz, but a close look at the screen made me doubt.

Then 240fps video recording with iPad Pro clearly showed that they're still on 3:2 pulldown alternating one frame for 12/240s (30fps) and another for 8/240s (20fps). I was also able to tell the projector didn't really change output refresh rate because webOS UI didn't get affected by any resolution / refresh settings from ATV at all. Enabling Real Cinema, setting device type to PC, or choosing game mode didn't make any difference in the output.

As I'm now leaning towards thinking 60hz panel in this projector is unable support native 24hz (or 48hz) refresh rate and Real Cinema is just a non-working gimmick, does anyone have experience with 24p support with PF1500W (or PF1500 and other siblings) here?
I would be happy to try. How do I know what the output is? I know my Sony BR will output 24fps. Is there no output indicator on the 1500?

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post #3253 of 3533 Old 12-09-2017, 08:59 PM
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I would be happy to try. How do I know what the output is? I know my Sony BR will output 24fps. Is there no output indicator on the 1500?
I couldn't find any indicator of resolution and refresh rates for both input and output on my 1500W. Yet, I guess you might be able to "feel" slowness from the UI (i.e. remote pointer motion) if it was indeed switched to native 24/48hz. If you have a mobile phone capable of slow-motion (120/240fps) video recording (i.e. iPhone 5s and up), that'd be the best way to confirm the actual refresh rate of the projector.

By the way, I found 24p sample clips on this website useful to test.

Last edited by tomyun; 12-09-2017 at 09:03 PM.
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post #3254 of 3533 Old 12-09-2017, 09:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tomyun View Post
I couldn't find any indicator of resolution and refresh rates for both input and output on my 1500W. Yet, I guess you might be able to "feel" slowness from the UI (i.e. remote pointer motion) if it was indeed switched to native 24/48hz. If you have a mobile phone capable of slow-motion (120/240fps) video recording (i.e. iPhone 5s and up), that'd be the best way to confirm the actual refresh rate of the projector.

By the way, I found 24p sample clips on this website useful to test.
I can't remember using the pointer during a BR movie so I will try that.

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post #3255 of 3533 Old 12-09-2017, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by tomyun View Post
As I'm now leaning towards thinking DLP chipset in this projector is unable support native 24hz (or 48hz) refresh rate and Real Cinema is just a non-working gimmick, does anyone have experience with 24p support with PF1500W (or PF1500 and other siblings) here?
Works just fine on my units. Tested 1500G and 1000U.

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I would be happy to try. How do I know what the output is? I know my Sony BR will output 24fps. Is there no output indicator on the 1500?
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Originally Posted by tomyun View Post
I couldn't find any indicator of resolution and refresh rates for both input and output on my 1500W.
Press "OK" on the remote (1500G/1000U). Resolution and refresh rate is shown at the top.

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post #3256 of 3533 Old 12-10-2017, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Works just fine on my units. Tested 1500G and 1000U.





Press "OK" on the remote (1500G/1000U). Resolution and refresh rate is shown at the top.
Top of my remote is power on/off button.

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post #3257 of 3533 Old 12-10-2017, 01:24 PM
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Top of my remote is power on/off button.
Seriously? I was talking about the top of the screen... The OK button is here:

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post #3258 of 3533 Old 12-10-2017, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Works just fine on my units. Tested 1500G and 1000U.





Press "OK" on the remote (1500G/1000U). Resolution and refresh rate is shown at the top.
Thanks for sharing your experience. Could you confirm if your display output was indeed native 24hz (or 48hz) in Real Cinema mode? The resolution and frame rate shown at the top of the screen most likely indicates the type of input signal, not necessarily what the actual output signal is. I found my PF1500W shows the resolution of input source (i.e. 720p, 1080p) at the top indicator regardless of webOS UI resolution which remains unchanged all the time.
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post #3259 of 3533 Old 12-11-2017, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by tomyun View Post
Thanks for sharing your experience. Could you confirm if your display output was indeed native 24hz (or 48hz) in Real Cinema mode? The resolution and frame rate shown at the top of the screen most likely indicates the type of input signal, not necessarily what the actual output signal is. I found my PF1500W shows the resolution of input source (i.e. 720p, 1080p) at the top indicator regardless of webOS UI resolution which remains unchanged all the time.
The frame rate of the demo movies linked above is 24 not 23.98. It gets displayed at 60Hz on my PF1000U. 23.98 files get displayed at "24Hz".

Do you have Netflix? Search for "Test Patterns". The first 2 movies are 23.98 and 24. PF1000U shows 24Hz for both. Player was ATV4K with refresh rate switching enabled.
I've recorded both in "slow-mo" (720p 240fps) on an iPhone and there was indeed a 8:12 frames cadence observable (in both cases) which suggests that 2:3 pulldown is applied and displayed at 60Hz. It made no difference whether "Real Cinema" was on or off.
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post #3260 of 3533 Old 12-14-2017, 12:42 PM
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Talking

Sorry for the dupe post in another thread...

I had this problem with my projector at around 2years and 4500 ish hours. Turns out it was a fried SMD Power Inductor. These chips can have some pretty high temp tolerances, my guess is eventually the cheaper ones just give out. I couldn't find the exact one LG used in the 1500, but my guess is that it was cheap, and had a 125c upper limit. Also my fried inductor looked noticeably fried, has a rainbowed titanium color.

The faulty part branding/text: "1R0 1516"

From what i discerned here are the characteristics:
SMD Fixed Inductor 1uH 30% 15.4A 2.24mohm 100khz

I was able to find a replacement part and used:
Panasonic
ETQ-P6F1R0SFA
I ordered the part from mouser.com. (rep points prevent me from links)

After replacing the inductor the projector works perfectly. No longer after a few seconds does it enter an on/off cycle, and has been running for over 500 hours since the fix.

I have pictures but i can't post links.... so maybe this, copy paste it.

cloud.lowjax.com/20171209_015757.png
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post #3261 of 3533 Old 12-14-2017, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by domonus1 View Post
Sorry for the dupe post in another thread...

I had this problem with my projector at around 2years and 4500 ish hours. Turns out it was a fried SMD Power Inductor. These chips can have some pretty high temp tolerances, my guess is eventually the cheaper ones just give out. I couldn't find the exact one LG used in the 1500, but my guess is that it was cheap, and had a 125c upper limit. Also my fried inductor looked noticeably fried, has a rainbowed titanium color.

The faulty part branding/text: "1R0 1516"

From what i discerned here are the characteristics:
SMD Fixed Inductor 1uH 30% 15.4A 2.24mohm 100khz

I was able to find a replacement part and used:
Panasonic
ETQ-P6F1R0SFA
I ordered the part from mouser.com. (rep points prevent me from links)

After replacing the inductor the projector works perfectly. No longer after a few seconds does it enter an on/off cycle, and has been running for over 500 hours since the fix.

I have pictures but i can't post links.... so maybe this, copy paste it.

cloud.lowjax.com/20171209_015757.png
Yup. that was the exact same repair I had to do... but I was not about to put the same part as the one that failed in mine... I used a slightly larger part (same inductance, same approx. switching freq.), but made for CPU local switching regulator... quadra-filar wound on a toroid core... rated for about 25 Amps. It runs perfectly cool.

I did an autopsy on my failed inductor, and believe the inductors that fail may have actually had a manufacturing defect. It looked to me like the enamel on the wire had been compromised due to the compression during assembly... as the copper wire itself was also deformed. This leads me to think that the original temperature rating was severely compromised, leading to an internal short between adjacent turns... resulting in a loss of inductance, leading to saturation, leading to more overheating, leading to more shorting between turns.

Prior to the autopsy, the inductor from mine tested at less than half of the rated 1uH... it was around 450uH with my LCR meter which has test frequencies from 100Hz to 100kHz.

Last edited by rtchinn; 12-15-2017 at 05:10 AM.
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post #3262 of 3533 Old 12-15-2017, 12:14 AM
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Yup. that was the exact same repair I had to do... but I was not about to put the same part as the one that failed in mine... I used a slightly larger part (same inductance, same approx. switching freq.), but made for CPU local switching regulator... tr-filar wound on a toroid core... rated for about 25 Amps. It runs perfectly cool.

I did an autopsy on my failed inductor, and believe the inductors that fail may have actually had a manufacturing defect. It looked to me like the enamel on the wire had been compromised due to the compression during assembly... as the copper wire itself was also deformed. This leads me to think that the original temperature rating was severely compromised, leading to an internal short between adjacent turns... resulting in a loss of inductance, leading to saturation, leading to more overheating, leading to more shorting between turns.

Prior to the autopsy, the inductor from mine tested at less than half of the rated 1uH... it was around 450uH with my LCR meter which has test frequencies from 100Hz to 100kHz.
Cool stuff! This stuff is all above my head, but i had a question about it... The inductor i bought was the only one marked "2.24mohm" with 100khz/1uh/30%. I wanted to purchase a more robust inductor, but had no idea what to get. Can i just get any SMD inductor 1uh 30% 100khz, with greater than 15.5A and 2.24mohm? Sorry noob question. Thanks!
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post #3263 of 3533 Old 12-15-2017, 04:23 AM
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Cool stuff! This stuff is all above my head, but i had a question about it... The inductor i bought was the only one marked "2.24mohm" with 100khz/1uh/30%. I wanted to purchase a more robust inductor, but had no idea what to get. Can i just get any SMD inductor 1uh 30% 100khz, with greater than 15.5A and 2.24mohm? Sorry noob question. Thanks!
As long as it's specified for use in a high frequency switching power supply circuit... yes... more or less. What I ran into though is the limitation of available physical space, because there's very little ("none") additional height above the circuit board for larger/thicker inductors. I had to stand my toroid up on edge, and fit it in a slot of the LED heat-sink fins. It was a great coincidence that the room for it was available, or else I would have had to make room somehow. (see picture - looking into the back of the projector through the fan housing)

I wrapped the inductor with Kapton tape for extra "short-out" protection, because the new inductor was a pretty tight fit in the slot, and I didn't want to have to mess with it again. I'm just not a fan of those high power molded inductors like it originally had... even more after seeing what happened to it in my projector... as well as many others. (I saw a lot of comments on LG's website about this "ON/OFF/ON/OFF... failure mode)
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post #3264 of 3533 Old 01-02-2018, 10:04 PM
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As long as it's specified for use in a high frequency switching power supply circuit... yes... more or less. What I ran into though is the limitation of available physical space, because there's very little ("none") additional height above the circuit board for larger/thicker inductors. I had to stand my toroid up on edge, and fit it in a slot of the LED heat-sink fins. It was a great coincidence that the room for it was available, or else I would have had to make room somehow. (see picture - looking into the back of the projector through the fan housing)

I wrapped the inductor with Kapton tape for extra "short-out" protection, because the new inductor was a pretty tight fit in the slot, and I didn't want to have to mess with it again. I'm just not a fan of those high power molded inductors like it originally had... even more after seeing what happened to it in my projector... as well as many others. (I saw a lot of comments on LG's website about this "ON/OFF/ON/OFF... failure mode)
That's very interesting and educational, thank you very much. Another quick question what inductor did you use? I am having a hard time figureing out where to get what. I really want to upgrade it like you... Could you think of any downside to breaking out and relocating the inductor outside the casing? Thanks in advance
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post #3265 of 3533 Old 01-02-2018, 11:01 PM
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Sorry, but I don't have a part number... I'm a bit of a pack-rat, and keep a lot of old circuit boards and parts for cases just like this... when I need something for another project.

I would not extend those connections any farther than absolutely necessary... you're talking about fast switching circuits, and any extra lead length will cause much greater EMI emissions, as well as increasing the chances of circuit instabilities.

If I had to pick a part to "buy to try", it might be this part on DigiKey
It seems to have sufficient power handling capabilities, but I haven't verified if the physical size would fit.

THIS LIST shows lots of possibilities with my pre-filtering... but without ANY physical size filtering... I just didn't have time.
(top of list would probably be the preferred parts - due to higher saturation current ratings, but that usually also means larger physical size)
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post #3266 of 3533 Old 01-05-2018, 07:29 AM
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post #3267 of 3533 Old 01-06-2018, 11:19 AM
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Actually... it's pretty interesting... it can be used in both 90° reflector "upright" mode, or horizontal mode for laying down on a table-top... or ceiling mount.
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post #3268 of 3533 Old 01-06-2018, 02:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Actually... it's pretty interesting... it can be used in both 90° reflector "upright" mode, or horizontal mode for laying down on a table-top... or ceiling mount.
Are you saying that this is a possible replacement for our beloved 1500s as you can simply lay it on the table and project directly to the screen as I do currently? Not being a optics specialist I am guessing that reflecting off a mirror doesn't change the distance measurement.

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post #3269 of 3533 Old 01-06-2018, 04:20 PM
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Are you saying that this is a possible replacement for our beloved 1500s as you can simply lay it on the table and project directly to the screen as I do currently? Not being a optics specialist I am guessing that reflecting off a mirror doesn't change the distance measurement.
LG Newsroom
The projector’s portable size and unique upright design is only made possible by the mirrorless I-shaped engine which allows the projector to show perfect images whether it’s placed on the floor, mounted on the wall or hanging from the ceiling.

Technoblog


size approximation: 5" x 5" x 14"


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post #3270 of 3533 Old 01-07-2018, 01:07 AM
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The picture on the right clearly shows a mirror. Looks like it can be used but doesn't have to. Guess we have to wait for reports from CES how it is supposed to work.

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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