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post #1 of 19 Old 01-20-2015, 05:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Projector - Go big now or wait??

Catchy title.......so here is my dilemma. 4K is out there and tv prices are dropping for 4k, but not yet for projectors. But I need a projector now. Do I go with a 'get me by' projector such as the BenQ w0170 or HT1075.......or do i 'go big' and spend 2k for VPL-HW40ES? My rationale on the former is buy a very good projector (as per all the reviews we see on the benq's) and then even when the bulb goes, sell it for whatever and then just spend that money on a 4k unit. If i spend 2k on sony (or epson) type unit, I know I'm really not going to upgrade at all.

The only thing I don't like is where I have to place the benq in my room in order to produce either a 110 or 120 image (haven't decided yet). Basically my room is 18 feet long, riser is 7 feet, so I would have to place the projector directly over the front of the riser (over heads of front room basically) but with the sony i can put pretty much all the way back to the room.

Thoughts?
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post #2 of 19 Old 01-20-2015, 06:47 AM
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The timeline for mass 4k adoption is a LONG ways out. I think by the time it's common, you'll possibly be shopping for a new projector.

That said, there's much more to the viewing experience than resolution, and at large screen sizes, source bitrate and digital encoding artifacts tend to distract me far far more than tiny resolution differences. So well encoded 720P stuff looks better than poorly encoded/low bitrate 1080P. Streaming 4k is a total joke at the bitrates it's currently done at, so that's not even an option IMO.


I'd personally buy in on a 1080P projector at whatever price point you feel comfortable at. There is a difference between a $800 projector and $2k projector, even though they have the same resolution. A reasonable upgrade cycle is 5-8 years, and most will start upgrading around that timeframe. That said, the pace of projector improvement seems to be slowing down, and market competition is dropping. So in 5-8 years, a pretty good projector today might be roughly comparable to something you can buy for the same price then.

Hard to say really when talking about things in the pipeline, there's always "something better" out there, so just buy where you're comfortable.
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post #3 of 19 Old 01-20-2015, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by gatorkeith View Post
Catchy title.......so here is my dilemma. 4K is out there and tv prices are dropping for 4k, but not yet for projectors. But I need a projector now. Do I go with a 'get me by' projector such as the BenQ w0170 or HT1075.......or do i 'go big' and spend 2k for VPL-HW40ES? My rationale on the former is buy a very good projector (as per all the reviews we see on the benq's) and then even when the bulb goes, sell it for whatever and then just spend that money on a 4k unit. If i spend 2k on sony (or epson) type unit, I know I'm really not going to upgrade at all.

The only thing I don't like is where I have to place the benq in my room in order to produce either a 110 or 120 image (haven't decided yet). Basically my room is 18 feet long, riser is 7 feet, so I would have to place the projector directly over the front of the riser (over heads of front room basically) but with the sony i can put pretty much all the way back to the room.

Thoughts?
What viewing distance are you looking at? Your screen size seems small if you intend to use the full depth afforded to you by the depth of your room, and 4K may not even produce a significant upgrade when it finally does become available in a viable format.

4K as it is right now, is such a huge marketing joke it's nearly shameful. There's no quality content readily available, and no real push appears to be in the works to make it so. When HDTV first came to market, as a 720p display format, there was already 1080i material being broadcast along with 720p. This isn't the case with UHD, and there doesn't seem to be much drive to get there.

So, if you have a god room you are putting together, I would get a good projector. If you insist upon sticking with a screen that is 120" or so, then I wouldn't touch the Sony unless you plan on doing a lot of gaming. I would look at a JVC. See if you can find a RS46 model if you can. The black levels are phenomenal for a good room on a average screen size.

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post #4 of 19 Old 01-20-2015, 07:21 AM - Thread Starter
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What viewing distance are you looking at? Your screen size seems small if you intend to use the full depth afforded to you by the depth of your room, and 4K may not even produce a significant upgrade when it finally does become available in a viable format.

4K as it is right now, is such a huge marketing joke it's nearly shameful. There's no quality content readily available, and no real push appears to be in the works to make it so. When HDTV first came to market, as a 720p display format, there was already 1080i material being broadcast along with 720p. This isn't the case with UHD, and there doesn't seem to be much drive to get there.

So, if you have a god room you are putting together, I would get a good projector. If you insist upon sticking with a screen that is 120" or so, then I wouldn't touch the Sony unless you plan on doing a lot of gaming. I would look at a JVC. See if you can find a RS46 model if you can. The black levels are phenomenal for a good room on a average screen size.
My room is 12'4" x 17'10. Screen on one of the 12'4" walls. With a riser 7 feet off the back, that puts 1st row around 10 feet from screen. So I'm thinking 110 or 120 (and i'm even concerned about 120 gets too overwhelming). What's so wrong with the Sony in your opinion? Projector People last night was all over it Perhaps just pushing a product, but it did get good reviews.

I don't do gaming.

Appreciate the responses!
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post #5 of 19 Old 01-20-2015, 08:18 AM
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I sit the same distance from my 120" screen and have never once thought it was too big. If anything I would rather it be a tad bigger.
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post #6 of 19 Old 01-20-2015, 08:46 AM
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JVC has a contrast ratio about five (or more) times that of Sony (real world) - so you get the best black levels out there.

I love the Sony. I have a larger screen, so I would get the Sony due to my screen size.

On screen size...
Do you plan to only sit in the front seats?
Have you fired up a projector and looked at it from 10' away?

I just installed a screen in a home where people were sitting 9' away. I put in a 134" screen and they were very worried about size. They were thrilled with a 134" diagonal from 9'.

So, don't assume that 110" or 120" is going to feel to large. It may feel fine at 10', but always feel small from the second row. At 134" it may feel good from the first row, and good from the second row as well. You really want to check this out before you finalize your size decision.

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post #7 of 19 Old 01-20-2015, 09:05 AM - Thread Starter
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JVC has a contrast ratio about five (or more) times that of Sony (real world) - so you get the best black levels out there.

I love the Sony. I have a larger screen, so I would get the Sony due to my screen size.

On screen size...
Do you plan to only sit in the front seats?
Have you fired up a projector and looked at it from 10' away?

I just installed a screen in a home where people were sitting 9' away. I put in a 134" screen and they were very worried about size. They were thrilled with a 134" diagonal from 9'.

So, don't assume that 110" or 120" is going to feel to large. It may feel fine at 10', but always feel small from the second row. At 134" it may feel good from the first row, and good from the second row as well. You really want to check this out before you finalize your size decision.
My thought was to get projector, install, project on blank wall...and then sit and determine which one. But now i'm thinking i gotta go for 120!!!

to your question about sitting in front, my thought is to sit center seat in front.

I looked at the JVC...i think that's about $3k...wheresa Sony is 2k. Due to this thread, I have decided against the Benq's. So my real q now is the epson 5030 or the sony one. They are different technologies, so I don't know if 2200 lumens from epson is same as 1700 from sony (which is LCOS). Dedicated theater room but if I have a football game on with friends I would want to have 'some' light on in the room w/o totally washing out the picture. Thoughts?
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post #8 of 19 Old 01-20-2015, 09:16 AM
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My prediction: 4K saturation in the market will take 3-5 years....and only then will you start to see an episode of your favorite TV show filmed, edited, transmitted and output from your cable box in 4K resolution.

Why so long? Because at 60" and below, 1080p is all you need (ie the human eye cannot perceive more detail) at a normal viewing distance...and the vast, vast majority of household TVs max out at 60".

It's all about the media, and the costs of doing 4K production and distribution are too high to cater to a select (relatively) few enthusiasts.

But still get the Sony. I have one, and I'm incredibly happy with it.

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post #9 of 19 Old 01-20-2015, 10:54 AM
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My prediction: 4K saturation in the market will take 3-5 years....and only then will you start to see an episode of your favorite TV show filmed, edited, transmitted and output from your cable box in 4K resolution.

Why so long? Because at 60" and below, 1080p is all you need (ie the human eye cannot perceive more detail) at a normal viewing distance...and the vast, vast majority of household TVs max out at 60".

It's all about the media, and the costs of doing 4K production and distribution are too high to cater to a select (relatively) few enthusiasts.

But still get the Sony. I have one, and I'm incredibly happy with it.

Q
So if 60" is the max for 1080 then at 120" would you not see the difference ?
Would a 4K projector upscale 1080 or 720 and would that look better ?
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post #10 of 19 Old 01-20-2015, 11:18 AM
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The brighter modes for the Epsons never look quite right...the colours don't look great at their higher lumens. The 5030 is ~600-700 lumens in best mode where as the Sony will be ~1500-1700 lumens and be still ~800-900 lumens on low lamp. No comparison....the HW40 is MUCH brighter and looks really good doing it as well. Because of the pixel structure of the LcoS, you won't have to worry about the SDE effect either (like you will with the Epson).

Although the HW40 doesn't have the deepest blacks, compared to my JVC...it's not too bad and the shadow detail more than makes up for the lack of the deepest blacks. It's the closet looking projector I've owned thus far when it comes to that 'look of the cinema'.

It's quiet, bright and has descent lens shift....coming in ~$2-grand. Best bang for the buck IMO.
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post #11 of 19 Old 01-20-2015, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by gatorkeith View Post
My thought was to get projector, install, project on blank wall...and then sit and determine which one. But now i'm thinking i gotta go for 120!!!

to your question about sitting in front, my thought is to sit center seat in front.

I looked at the JVC...i think that's about $3k...wheresa Sony is 2k. Due to this thread, I have decided against the Benq's. So my real q now is the epson 5030 or the sony one. They are different technologies, so I don't know if 2200 lumens from epson is same as 1700 from sony (which is LCOS). Dedicated theater room but if I have a football game on with friends I would want to have 'some' light on in the room w/o totally washing out the picture. Thoughts?

If I were in your shoes I'd get the Sony HW40 while it is on sale, a 120" screen ( maybe a Carada Brilliant White ? ) and enjoy it. 4K won't be ready for prime time until 2020 IMO. I have a 4K projector, and a 1080p projector. As others have said, there is more to a good picture than just resolution. I switch back and forth quite a bit. 1080p still rocks with top notch Blu Rays !
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post #12 of 19 Old 01-20-2015, 12:15 PM
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So if 60" is the max for 1080 then at 120" would you not see the difference ?
Would a 4K projector upscale 1080 or 720 and would that look better ?
Scaling is always a question mark. Also, the statement that 60" for 1080p means something is not accurate.

Resolution is a matter of viewing distance. Since 'normal' viewing distance is 10' or so, then about 60" (or a bit larger really) with 1080p resolution won't yield any greater performance if you increase the resolution.

Likewise, if you have a 400" screen that you view from 80 feet away, you can stick with 1080p.

It's when you sit closer to larger screens that things really start to make a difference. But, simply increasing resolution on the display, with no concern to the source, won't solve things. You won't notice visible pixel structure if they have minimal inter-pixel gap, but you will notice flaws in the original image. Remember! 1080p streamed is not the same as 1080p from Blu-ray Disc. Likewise, upconverted 1080p, even from a good source, is not the same as quality UHD material. You can't get four times the pixels from thin air. They must be interpolated, and different projectors will handle this conversion differently from each other. You SHOULD expect an improvement since they will use scalers to convert from 1080p to 2160p. But, it will not be the same as quality 2160p native material.

These same discussions, occurred at length when the jump from 720p to 1080p came about. Even more discussion when Blu-ray Disc came along in comparison to DVD.

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post #13 of 19 Old 01-20-2015, 12:19 PM
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I looked at the JVC...i think that's about $3k...wheresa Sony is 2k. Due to this thread, I have decided against the Benq's. So my real q now is the epson 5030 or the sony one. They are different technologies, so I don't know if 2200 lumens from epson is same as 1700 from sony (which is LCOS). Dedicated theater room but if I have a football game on with friends I would want to have 'some' light on in the room w/o totally washing out the picture. Thoughts?
If you will do some heavy sports viewing, then the Sony will be the better model. A lot of users like the Epson, but I'm not one of those people. I don't like what a dynamic iris does to the image, and in most typical viewing the Sony will best the Epson in contrast, it will always be quieter, and it will be similarly bright. The inter-pixel gap with LCoS is phenomenally low, and the build quality of LCoS projectors seems to be a bit higher from what I have seen over the years.

I would get the Sony if I wasn't in a space that really clamored for a JVC RS Series projector.

If I was at 120" or smaller, I would be hard pressed NOT to get a JVC.

As for use with some lights on - keep the lights away from the screen and you won't have any real issues with image quality. Light the rest of the room, but keep the screen area dark!
See examples here: http://www.avintegrated.com/lighting.html

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post #14 of 19 Old 01-20-2015, 12:36 PM
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So if 60" is the max for 1080 then at 120" would you not see the difference ?
Would a 4K projector upscale 1080 or 720 and would that look better ?
I don't believe so....try watching SD on a HD TV. I think there are plenty of lines on a 1080P projector at 120" to make content look good...the problem is the media itself. That's why the commercials look crisper and sharper than the game.

How many years into HD are we, and how many SD and SD-only channels do you have on your cable box? With Shaw, there are plenty (esp. kids programming). So if we're going that slow with an obvious improvement (SD-->HD), how long until I can watch a hockey game produced in 4K (supported by the cable company in 4K)?

Anyone can see the benefit of SD-->HD on the average person's 50" TV, and 1080x content is plentiful. I think the jump from 1080x to 4k on a 50" TV is too small for media producers to put the effort into creating content at that resolution....and if there's nothing to watch, what's the point in investing in the technology?

Yes, I know a few select 4K blu rays MIGHT arrive within the next year or so.... but how long until you can stop by BestBuy and pick up a handful of 4K new releases? The fact that there isn't even a date for when that might happen should tell you that it is too soon to worry about getting a 4K display.
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If you will do some heavy sports viewing, then the Sony will be the better model. A lot of users like the Epson, but I'm not one of those people. I don't like what a dynamic iris does to the image, and in most typical viewing the Sony will best the Epson in contrast, it will always be quieter, and it will be similarly bright. The inter-pixel gap with LCoS is phenomenally low, and the build quality of LCoS projectors seems to be a bit higher from what I have seen over the years.

I would get the Sony if I wasn't in a space that really clamored for a JVC RS Series projector.

If I was at 120" or smaller, I would be hard pressed NOT to get a JVC.

As for use with some lights on - keep the lights away from the screen and you won't have any real issues with image quality. Light the rest of the room, but keep the screen area dark!
See examples here: http://www.avintegrated.com/lighting.html
I think the closest JVC RS is $2800. So the budget went from 800 to 2K (for the Sony), then JVC jumps it again to go up to $2800. So the Sony price point feels right which still getting what seems like one heck of a projector.
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It's all about the media, and the costs of doing 4K production and distribution are too high to cater to a select few enthusiasts. [IMG]http://***************/1a1.jpg[/IMG]
Somebody is catering to someone with all the 4K TV's out....
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My thought was to get projector, install, project on blank wall...and then sit and determine which one. But now i'm thinking i gotta go for 120!!! ...
Your thought is a good one. I did exactly that and found that 110" at 9.5' was perfect for me. 115" definitely felt to big. Watch several movies from all rows to see if you can find a good compromise.
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My prediction: 4K saturation in the market will take 3-5 years....and only then will you start to see an episode of your favorite TV show filmed, edited, transmitted and output from your cable box in 4K resolution...
I was reading a post from a guy on the editing side of movies today. He said they have been doing their editing at 4K since about 2000.
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post #19 of 19 Old 01-25-2015, 01:03 AM
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I was reading a post from a guy on the editing side of movies today. He said they have been doing their editing at 4K since about 2000.
Yes...some movies and zero TV are edited in 4K....but there's a big leap from the editors pc to your screen. Eventually we will be watching everything in 4k, but not until every piece of electronics on your av rack is as obsolete as a 480i Dvd player...(10 ish years)
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