Epson 5040UB ($2999) - e-Shift 4K, HDR10, WCG, Powered lens position memory - Page 88 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2611 of 3506 Old 09-26-2016, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
When playing a 1080P movie, the image will be sharper with E-shift off. This applies to both JVC and Epson. E-shift by it's nature of what it does costs you some sharpness.
Really? I could've sworn i've read several on here saying that the picture of a 1080p eshifted had more detail.

@MississippiMan
You notice SDE on the 5040 even with 4k e-shift turned on on 1080p sources?
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post #2612 of 3506 Old 09-26-2016, 09:26 PM
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Epson 5040UB ($2999) - e-Shift 4K, HDR10, WCG, Powered lens position memory

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viche View Post
Really? I could've sworn i've read several on here saying that the picture of a 1080p eshifted had more detail.


@MississippiMan

You notice SDE on the 5040 even with 4k e-shift turned on on 1080p sources?

I myself notice no screen door effect and I also prefer the e-shift 4K up-conversion of the 1080p source material. It's not a massive improvement but it is significant.

Since I do not enjoy the soap opera effect that comes along with frame interpellation, I definitely think that the benefits of the 4K up-conversion are worth it.


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Last edited by Kelvin1000; 09-27-2016 at 04:43 AM.
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post #2613 of 3506 Old 09-26-2016, 09:55 PM
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I was in Tokyo on 9/16 for a week n had a chance to go up to Epson video showroom in Shinjuku n AVAC showroom(AV specialty store at Akiharbara). I did ask what those HDR mode1/2/3/4 mean in real term relative to HDR10. They both said Mode 1 n 2 are reserved for UHD Bluray, while 3 n 4 are reserved for Live TV broadcasting that will be coming next year. If I remember correctly, they did mention 1 n 2 are up to 4000 nits n 3 n 4 are up to 10,000 nits. I am not a technical person, wonder if that makes any sense to you folks.


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Originally Posted by GregCh View Post
That's not exactly true, is it?

Home Theater geeks has interviewed various HDR experts and they all say it is currently half baked. The HDR10 standard really doesn't apply to projectors and many think it should already by updated to HDR12. Many other experts are pushing Dolby Vision over HDR10 but it isn't implemented on very much content and projectors again are left out of the spec.

In addition, projector review sites like ProjectorReviews.com says in his review of the 5040UB that his professional calibrators are not sure even what is the proper calibration for the projector given the various modes of HDR1, HDR2, HDR3, HDR4 and how it relates to reference color and proper brightness.

If it was ready for primetime, there would be more offerings, more content, and there wouldn't be firmware updates weekly to fix color tables, compatibility issues, etc.

There are always pioneers into new tech, I have done my fair share but it isn't always fun and it isn't always worth it. In this case, it might be better to ride the pine until this whole HDR transition is fully cooked. Besides the content isn't there yet. It is coming along but it is slow.

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post #2614 of 3506 Old 09-26-2016, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
7. Frame interpolation (Epson does not have this for 4K source)
Ok, I am a bit confused here. I have been eyeing this model for a while, expecting to get FI on 4k sources downscaled to 1080p.
If it doesn't work on 4k, then what is the point of the projector in the first place?
Why not just buy a higher end 2k model for the same price or less?
Maybe this is old news, but there are so many damn posts in this thread it's a full time job reading them so I have to skim.
I wanted to send UHD BD to this projector and expected to see it converted to 2k and than interpolated.
I already have a fantastic 2k pj. It's several years old, but I don't want to spend $3k just to get HDR and lens memory.
Heck UHD players will likely have HDR->SDR conversion soon anyway.
What am I missing here??

EDIT: I just realized that I could use a top quality player that does SDR conversion when one is released,
send the 2k signal to the pj, and then have the pj do FI.
It just seems odd to me that the 5040 can convert 4k to 2k, and it can do FI on 2k, but it can't do FI on signals converted to 2k?
That just doesn't make any sense.

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post #2615 of 3506 Old 09-26-2016, 11:02 PM
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Epson 5040UB ($2999) - e-Shift 4K, HDR10, WCG, Powered lens position memory

Does anyone know what refresh rate the 5040 uses on 24p feeds? Is it 24 hz (1:1), 48 hz (2:2), 96hz (4:4) ?
I called Epson support and they put me on hold for 5 mins and came back with somewhat of a pathetic answer. Basically they don't understand my question.

Reason I ask? Motion handling on 24p feeds is rather uncomfortable. A strobing or flickering effect on bright portions of the screen. Very noticeable and disturbing to me, although who knows, I may get used to it.

None of my previous LCD or DLP projectors exhibit this 'phenomenon'.

Ps: 60hz looks phenomenal. No issues.

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Last edited by gnolivos; 09-27-2016 at 03:26 AM.
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post #2616 of 3506 Old 09-27-2016, 03:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1000 View Post
I myself notice no screen door effect and I also prefer the e-shift 4K up-conversion of the 1080p source material. It's not a massive improvement but it is significant.

Since I do not enjoy the soap opera effect that comes along with frame interpellation, I think that the benefits of the 4K up-conversion are wroth it.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post
Ok, I am a bit confused here. I have been eyeing this model for a while, expecting to get FI on 4k sources downscaled to 1080p.
If it doesn't work on 4k, then what is the point of the projector in the first place?
Why not just buy a higher end 2k model for the same price or less?
Maybe this is old news, but there are so many damn posts in this thread it's a full time job reading them so I have to skim.
I wanted to send UHD BD to this projector and expected to see it converted to 2k and than interpolated.
I already have a fantastic 2k pj. It's several years old, but I don't want to spend $3k just to get HDR and lens memory.
Heck UHD players will likely have HDR->SDR conversion soon anyway.
What am I missing here??

EDIT: I just realized that I could use a top quality player that does SDR conversion when one is released,
send the 2k signal to the pj, and then have the pj do FI.
It just seems odd to me that the 5040 can convert 4k to 2k, and it can do FI on 2k, but it can't do FI on signals converted to 2k?
That just doesn't make any sense.
@gnolivos

Yeah, seriously, we need a wiki with frequently asked questions for this projector. There's no way I can remember all these details.

Regarding frame interpolation, Jewdaddy answered this a while ago. I believe both posts above are incorrect:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JewDaddy View Post
Actually you can. It doesn't work with a true 4K movie and HDR, but it will work with a standard blu-Ray. Well, actually it will work with a true 4K blu-Ray but the key to getting FI to work is changing the output of your player to 1080p with 24p enabled and it will allow you to turn the 4K enhancement on along with FI :-)
That being said, if 24P sources cause motion issues, then the above solution is pointless.
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post #2617 of 3506 Old 09-27-2016, 05:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viche View Post

@MississippiMan
You notice SDE on the 5040 even with 4k e-shift turned on on 1080p sources?
Yes...but only from very close distances (within 2'-3')

This is not a overriding issue for virtually anyone except those with < 20/10 Lasik vision, even at a 1:1 viewing ratio.

My concerns center around the habit of people at Home / Trade Shows going up just that close (or closer ) to examine the screen, often because they cannot believe the Wall is in fact...a screen. As such, an absolute lack of SDE for me is critical. Shoot...for almost anyone who does get up close and personal, it usually dosen't seem to matter...but when it does, it distracts from the astonishment I like to see on people's faces.

Such should not be a determining factor for almost anyone else, and the other sterling attributes the 5040 brings to the table certainly outweigh that one niggling point.

I might also mention that using a screen that is both High Contrast and has 1.0+ gain tends to bring out the very light Gray shading of the SDE grid, so in that respect, my Bed is made beforehand.
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post #2618 of 3506 Old 09-27-2016, 06:29 AM
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Just wanted to point out that in 4K enhanced mode, this projector shows no screen door effect. It is one of its strengths. Compared to my old 1080p projector, I could now sit 4-5 feet closer and still not see any SDE. I'm thinking of adding another front row now.

Setup: Epson 5040 UB, 110" SilverTicket AT screen, PS3 bluray, Yamaha RX-V673 AVR, Polk and Athena speakers, Batcave room.
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post #2619 of 3506 Old 09-27-2016, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post
Ok, I am a bit confused here. I have been eyeing this model for a while, expecting to get FI on 4k sources downscaled to 1080p.
If it doesn't work on 4k, then what is the point of the projector in the first place?
Why not just buy a higher end 2k model for the same price or less?
Maybe this is old news, but there are so many damn posts in this thread it's a full time job reading them so I have to skim.
I wanted to send UHD BD to this projector and expected to see it converted to 2k and than interpolated.
I already have a fantastic 2k pj. It's several years old, but I don't want to spend $3k just to get HDR and lens memory.
Heck UHD players will likely have HDR->SDR conversion soon anyway.
What am I missing here??

EDIT: I just realized that I could use a top quality player that does SDR conversion when one is released,
send the 2k signal to the pj, and then have the pj do FI.
It just seems odd to me that the 5040 can convert 4k to 2k, and it can do FI on 2k, but it can't do FI on signals converted to 2k?
That just doesn't make any sense.
E-shift does not convert 4K to 2K. It takes two frames from the 4K source and displays them sequentially, so fast that the eye sees them as one image. E-shift is automatically on, when feeding a 4K input. Epson calls their version 4K enhancement technology, but JVC has a good explanation on how it works. http://eu.jvc.com/microsite/eu/dla-x900r/feature01.html
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post #2620 of 3506 Old 09-27-2016, 06:49 AM
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Epson 5040UB ($2999) - e-Shift 4K, HDR10, WCG, Powered lens position memory

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
E-shift does not convert 4K to 2K. It takes two frames from the 4K source and displays them sequentially, so fast that the eye sees them as one image. E-shift is automatically on, when feeding a 4K input. Epson calls their version 4K enhancement technology, but JVC has a good explanation on how it works. http://eu.jvc.com/microsite/eu/dla-x900r/feature01.html


Interesting. I was under the impression that it took 1080p source and upscaled to the doubled resolution by interpolating and aliasing the image. (Which is more than merely copying the frame over to the offset location).

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post #2621 of 3506 Old 09-27-2016, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnolivos View Post
Interesting. I was under the impression that it took 1080p source and upscaled to the doubled resolution by interpolating and aliasing the image. (Which is more than merely copying the frame over to the offset location).
No, Epson reports it as a pixel shifting system.
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post #2622 of 3506 Old 09-27-2016, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
E-shift does not convert 4K to 2K. It takes two frames from the 4K source and displays them sequentially, so fast that the eye sees them as one image. E-shift is automatically on, when feeding a 4K input. Epson calls their version 4K enhancement technology, but JVC has a good explanation on how it works. http://eu.jvc.com/microsite/eu/dla-x900r/feature01.html
Ok, so FI and eShift aren't the same thing?
How does this relate to your #7 in my earlier quote, that FI is not possible with a 4k source?
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post #2623 of 3506 Old 09-27-2016, 08:49 AM
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Epson 5040UB ($2999) - e-Shift 4K, HDR10, WCG, Powered lens position memory

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post
Ok, so FI and eShift aren't the same thing?

How does this relate to your #7 in my earlier quote, that FI is not possible with a 4k source?


We need a FAQ. Completely different things!

FI: interpolates frames by adding intermediate frames, effectively increasing framerate or smoothness.

EShift: takes a single frame and duplicates it by shifting diagonally, effectively duplicating the number of pixels per every frame, in a 1080 signal. In the case of a 4K signal, eShift also activates, and takes the 4K signal to display it on screen as best possible (likely downscaling a 4K signal to 2k). A true 4K panel has 8M pixels. eShift produces 4M pixels. 1080p is 2M pixels.
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post #2624 of 3506 Old 09-27-2016, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnolivos View Post
We need a FAQ. Completely different things!

FI: interpolates frames by adding intermediate frames, effectively increasing framerate or smoothness.

EShift: takes a single frame and duplicates it by shifting diagonally, effectively duplicating the number of pixels per every frame, in a 1080 signal. In the case of a 4K signal, eShift also activates, and takes the 4K signal to display it on screen as best possible (likely downscaling a 4K signal to 2k). A true 4K panel has 8M pixels. eShift produces 4M pixels. 1080p is 2M pixels.
As I said before, E-shift (Epson nor JVC's) does not downscale.
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post #2625 of 3506 Old 09-27-2016, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
As I said before, E-shift (Epson nor JVC's) does not downscale.


We talked about UPSCALING before, and I don't disagree with your findings.

Here I am talking about talking the 4K signal and displaying it on a 2K capable display. So yeah, it has to downscale somehow. Meaning, it's taking the 8M pixels and displaying 4M through eShift technology.

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post #2626 of 3506 Old 09-27-2016, 09:19 AM
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^ Thanks Mike and gnolivos.
Starting to get what these new techs are doing.

Ok, so FI sounds a lot like the effect newer displays use, otherwise known as "the soap opera effect", of which I am not a fan.
I could stand it on an extremely low setting, but every display I have seen it on is just too much, even on the lowest setting.
I think this is something that looks different to everyone. I already have vertigo issues, and that type of effect gives me seasickness type feeling.
If that is what FI is, then I won't worry about it then. I believe the eShift AKA: 4k Enhancement is what I am concerned with,
and I just want to make sure it does it with a forms of 4k, color space, HDR/WCG, and bit depth.

Nice theater room btw gnolivos, very similar to mine but mine's done on a tighter budget and not quite as nice.
Very similar colored walls, carpet, seats. You have good taste, lol.
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post #2627 of 3506 Old 09-27-2016, 09:26 AM
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4K eshift can be turned on for 1080p sources. It will be forced on for 4K sources. That's what my testing indicates.

FI can only be enabled for certain combinations. Like you, I don't care for it at all. Or 3D.

My main use is for bluray. I'm concerned about motion handling for bluray 24p (every bluray). This really does suck, and I hope Epson will address it. Or maybe it's just me. I only heard of one other user on the owners thread describing the same problem.
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post #2628 of 3506 Old 09-27-2016, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnolivos View Post
Does anyone know what refresh rate the 5040 uses on 24p feeds? Is it 24 hz (1:1), 48 hz (2:2), 96hz (4:4) ?
I called Epson support and they put me on hold for 5 mins and came back with somewhat of a pathetic answer. Basically they don't understand my question.

Reason I ask? Motion handling on 24p feeds is rather uncomfortable. A strobing or flickering effect on bright portions of the screen. Very noticeable and disturbing to me, although who knows, I may get used to it.

None of my previous LCD or DLP projectors exhibit this 'phenomenon'.

Ps: 60hz looks phenomenal. No issues.
I thought I noticed some strobing effect last week when I watched The Finest Hour. I had the auto iris off, so then I set it to "high" and it seemed to have gone away. But maybe it was just my imagination, or maybe the rest of the scenes were darker and I didn't notice it as much. What iris mode did you have it at? I'll have to test it out more to see if I notice it on any other movies.

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post #2629 of 3506 Old 09-27-2016, 12:11 PM
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I thought I noticed some strobing effect last week when I watched The Finest Hour. I had the auto iris off, so then I set it to "high" and it seemed to have gone away. But maybe it was just my imagination, or maybe the rest of the scenes were darker and I didn't notice it as much. What iris mode did you have it at? I'll have to test it out more to see if I notice it on any other movies.


I've tried mostly with Iris ON at high. But I notice the issue regardless, and I've exhausted all options.

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post #2630 of 3506 Old 09-27-2016, 12:25 PM
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@gnolivos ,
Yes, Nice room! Looking forward to setting mine up...

Equipment List: Theater - JVC DLA-X770R / Denon X4300H / Panasonic 820 4K BD Player / Polk Audio RTiA9 Towers / Polk CSiA6 Center / Polk 65RT (6), FXi5 (2) Atmos and Surrounds / (4) Polk PSW505 12" Subs / Black Flame Painted Screen Wall / Nvidia Shield TV / Dish Hopper 3 - 4K/ XBOX One S / Harmony Elite / Echo Dot / Tripp Lite UPS Backup / Furman Conditioner / App and Tap controlled Philips Hue Lighting / Monoprice Cabling
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post #2631 of 3506 Old 09-27-2016, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregCh View Post
That's not exactly true, is it?

Home Theater geeks has interviewed various HDR experts and they all say it is currently half baked. The HDR10 standard really doesn't apply to projectors and many think it should already by updated to HDR12. Many other experts are pushing Dolby Vision over HDR10 but it isn't implemented on very much content and projectors again are left out of the spec.

In addition, projector review sites like ProjectorReviews.com says in his review of the 5040UB that his professional calibrators are not sure even what is the proper calibration for the projector given the various modes of HDR1, HDR2, HDR3, HDR4 and how it relates to reference color and proper brightness.

If it was ready for primetime, there would be more offerings, more content, and there wouldn't be firmware updates weekly to fix color tables, compatibility issues, etc.

There are always pioneers into new tech, I have done my fair share but it isn't always fun and it isn't always worth it. In this case, it might be better to ride the pine until this whole HDR transition is fully cooked. Besides the content isn't there yet. It is coming along but it is slow.
My business is similar "bleeding edge" but is focused around VoIP rather than HT so I can sympathize with the pains of new tech.

HDR is out and is being supported and content is available. Obviously, HDR in the home is different than HDR in theaters. There is an entire thread on these differences so we will leave that discussion to be addressed in those forums rather than in a projector thread like this one.

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post #2632 of 3506 Old 09-27-2016, 03:41 PM
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This was probably posted a few pages back:
http://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/v...jector-review/

But in the comments, he states it was a pre-production unit and had HDR 0 to 3 (which was then replaced by 1 to 4). So HDR 0 = HDR 1.

He also posted his configuration in the comments, which I’ve pasted below. What do people think of these? I’ll be using Bright Cinema due to my room (not Natural). Do those Offset and Gain colors below still apply for Bright Cinema? And what about the Gamma -1 (I’m thinking I’ll go Gamma +2). And he also chose Image Preset 1, where most on this thread are choosing 3. And what about the Iris seting?

I haven’t got my 5400 yet but just trying to get prepared for when I do.

And this one (ignore):
Mode Natural
Offset Red 49
Offset Green 50
Offset Blue 50
Gain Red 57
Gain Green 50
Gain Blue 46
Gamma -1
Image Preset 1
4K Enhancement On
Iris -20 (0 for HDR content)
Power Eco
Since I had a pre-production sample, your mileage may vary. Only use the gain and offset numbers as a starting point.

Cheers
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post #2633 of 3506 Old 09-27-2016, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent_009 View Post
This was probably posted a few pages back:

http://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/v...jector-review/



But in the comments, he states it was a pre-production unit and had HDR 0 to 3 (which was then replaced by 1 to 4). So HDR 0 = HDR 1.



He also posted his configuration in the comments, which I’ve pasted below. What do people think of these? I’ll be using Bright Cinema due to my room (not Natural). Do those Offset and Gain colors below still apply for Bright Cinema? And what about the Gamma -1 (I’m thinking I’ll go Gamma +2). And he also chose Image Preset 1, where most on this thread are choosing 3. And what about the Iris seting?



I haven’t got my 5400 yet but just trying to get prepared for when I do.



And this one (ignore):

Mode Natural

Offset Red 49

Offset Green 50

Offset Blue 50

Gain Red 57

Gain Green 50

Gain Blue 46

Gamma -1

Image Preset 1

4K Enhancement On

Iris -20 (0 for HDR content)

Power Eco

Since I had a pre-production sample, your mileage may vary. Only use the gain and offset numbers as a starting point.



Cheers


Shutting down the iris to -20 makes for a dark picture. It's fine at night with lights out but I didn't like it during the day.

I will give it more time and play with it more but I keep going back to the default settings.
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post #2634 of 3506 Old 09-27-2016, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shepdog View Post
Shutting down the iris to -20 makes for a dark picture. It's fine at night with lights out but I didn't like it during the day.

I will give it more time and play with it more but I keep going back to the default settings.
I also played with the settings but then returned to the default mode. I do have an older video calibration DVD with color wheels and such but honestly don't think any changes I might make would be significant enough for the effort. These 5040's appear to be Epson's answer to the Sony HW45ES in terms of coming nicely calibrated right out of the box.

Epson 5040ub Projector, Elite Screens 120" Saker AUHD, Yamaha RX-A3060, B&W Speakers: Signature 7's, FMP4, CWM7.5s, CCM65s, Rythmik 15" CI Sub, 30' Monoprice Cabernet Ultra CL2, Tiara CI-Pro Series In-wall wiring, Phillips BDP7501 UHD BD Player, Niles 1230 WHA Amp, Xbox, WiiU, TiVo Premiere
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post #2635 of 3506 Old 09-27-2016, 07:56 PM
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Thanks gents. Good to hear the default settings are decent!! Cheers
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post #2636 of 3506 Old 09-28-2016, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1000 View Post
1. Input lag (much lower on 5040)

2. HDMI sync time (quicker on 5040)

3. Native contrast (better on 400, but only matters to you, if you improve your room)

4. Fan noise (better on 400 on high lamp)

5. Price (5040 lower)

6. Projector case color (room dependent)

7. Frame interpolation (5040 does not have this for 4K source)

8. Cost of replacement bulbs (lower for 5040)

9. Additional 3D adapter (5040 has it built in)

10. Two way shipping or swap during warranty (JVC owner has to pay for one way shipping)

11. Automatic lens door on 5040 (RS400 does not have it (not a deal breaker)

12. Weight (5040 is lighter). (Existing mount may need replacement to support added weight. Again should not be a deal breaker, but an added cost)

13. Full DCI P3 coverage on 5040 (I don't know if it matters much)

14. Built-in USB power for optical HDMI on 5040. (But adapters are cheap as long as you have power source up there)

15. Out of the box color calibration accuracy (slightly better on 400)

16. Perceived resolution and sharpness (better on 5040)

16. Up-conversion and processing of inferior quality signals (1080p Comcast) and others (better on the 5040)

17. No special hardware required for firmware upgrades on the 5040


...did I miss anything

Not trying to bias, just trying to make the list complete incase anyone needs to know...
18. True 18Gbps HDMI 2.0a (400 is, 5040 is not)

This is the major deal breaker for me, and why I returned my 5040.
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post #2637 of 3506 Old 09-28-2016, 09:38 AM
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Epson 5040UB ($2999) - e-Shift 4K, HDR10, WCG, Powered lens position memory

Quote:
Originally Posted by alanine View Post
18. True 18Gbps HDMI 2.0a (400 is, 5040 is not)

This is the major deal breaker for me, and why I returned my 5040.

This doesn't really matter to me since the projector is perfectly capable of handling 4K UHD Blu-rays and 4K streaming content.

If the 10gps chips are good enough for $15K native 4K projectors, then they are good enough for the $3K Epson and good enough for me!

Either way, I will add it to the list.

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Last edited by Kelvin1000; 09-28-2016 at 09:49 AM.
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post #2638 of 3506 Old 09-28-2016, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post
19. Sealed Light Path/no Dust Blobs (400 yes, 5040 not)

Used to be that way for the 5030.
Has this been confirmed for the 5040?


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post #2639 of 3506 Old 09-28-2016, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1000 View Post
Used to be that way for the 5030.
Has this been confirmed for the 5040?


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I remember couple of posts complaining about a fuzzy green dot on white screen. So, unfortunately yes.
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post #2640 of 3506 Old 09-28-2016, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
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I remember couple of posts complaining about a fuzzy green dot on white screen. So, unfortunately yes.


Yes but that could be a factory defect. Has Epson confirmed or has anyone open up the projector to find out?


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