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-   -   Looking for maximum vertical lens shift (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-digital-projectors-under-3-000-usd-msrp/2554257-looking-maximum-vertical-lens-shift.html)

yakapo 08-19-2016 07:12 PM

Looking for maximum vertical lens shift
 
Ok, I did a search on this before posting, but most threads were fairly old.

I've got a 10' ceiling and I'd rather not hang the projector down 3 feet from the ceiling. This is going in my living room so I'd rather not have it hanging down that low. Also the room is 21' long so I can't just put the projector on the other side of the room. (Or can I?)

I read that some projectors can vertical shift 3 screen heights. Can someone direct me to a few of those? Thanks for your time.

Edit: for a 100" screen, I guess two screen heights of vertical shift would be enough.

dreamer 08-19-2016 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yakapo (Post 46179513)
Ok, I did a search on this before posting, but most threads were fairly old.

I've got a 10' ceiling and I'd rather not hang the projector down 3 feet from the ceiling. This is going in my living room so I'd rather not have it hanging down that low. Also the room is 21' long so I can't just put the projector on the other side of the room. (Or can I?)

I read that some projectors can vertical shift 3 screen heights. Can someone direct me to a few of those? Thanks for your time.

Edit: for a 100" screen, I guess two screen heights of vertical shift would be enough.

Do you actually need "lens shift" or simply "lens offset" ? The term "shift" means adjustable image height and/or horizontal positioning. "Offset" is simply how far above or below the lens and image will appear even if it is a fixed ratio of the image size. From a 10' ceiling, figuring the top of the screen will be around 7', you don't actually need all that much vertical offset.

If you simply want to get the projector up higher, a fixed vertical lens offset may be enough, depending on screen size. You mentioned a 100" screen. Is that decided already ? Usually, you decide how many people will be viewing, decide on a viewing distance, and then decide on an appropriate image size. A 100" image might be appropriate for a pair of seats at 10' or closer, while a 150" image would be better for 4 seats at 12'-14'.

The BenQ HC1200 does not have vertical lens "shift" but it does have a relatively large vertical lens "offset" such that the image would begin 7" below the lens for a 100" image and 11" below the lens for a 150" image. A 150" image is 6' tall and if it begins 18" off the floor, the projector would be 8.5' off the floor. It could also be wall mounted on the wall 21' away and zoom any size between 130" and 190". The Epson 3500 would allow about the same range of sizes from the wall mounting but does have adjustable vertical lens shift. Both are bright enough for living room use and both are ~$1000. Then there are more expensive options with lens shift like the Sony HW45ES and Epson 5040UB at around $2000 or the JVC RS400 at $4000 but these are designed for dedicated rooms with dark surfaces rather than living rooms.

yakapo 08-19-2016 08:25 PM

Frankly, I don't know what I'm talking about.

I'm leaning toward a 40es. There's one on Craigslist for $1100 unopened.

Thanks for the tips. I'll do some more study on the terms.

itaos 12-12-2017 04:38 PM

Have any projectors come out in the last year that have a larger vertical offset/lens shift for less than $2000? I would prefer to get something less expensive than the Sony HW45ES or Epson 5040UB if possible. Thanks.

Dave in Green 12-12-2017 07:09 PM

I find it easier to calculate when taking it one step at a time. A 100" diagonal 16:9 aspect ratio screen has an image height of ~50" and your wall is 120" (10') high, leaving 70" to divide up between the floor and bottom of the screen and top of the screen and ceiling. The most important consideration is to have the screen at the correct height so that it's not so low or high as to be uncomfortable when viewing from your normal seating position. If you can estimate that then you will be able to calculate how far the top of the screen will be from the ceiling.

Let's take a hypothetical example. Assuming you would be OK having the projector mounted with the lens about 12" down from the ceiling, lets say you would be comfortable with the bottom of the screen 30" off the floor which would put the top of the screen 80" off the floor or 40" from the ceiling. With the projector lens 12" from the ceiling that would be 28" from the lens to the top of the screen. That's a huge amount vertical lens shift by projector standards.

The least expensive projector that comes close to that is the Epson 4040/5040/6040 family. They have 96% vertical lens shift as measured from the center of the screen, so the first 50% of that is the distance to the top of the screen from the center, which is ~25". The next 46% or ~23" would be the maximum height above the screen the center of the lens could be. Subtracting that 23" from the 28" in the hypothetical calculation in the previous paragraph would result in just a 5" difference. So if the projector was mounted 5" lower than 12" from the ceiling or the screen was mounted 5" higher than 30" from the floor the Epson 4040/5040/6040 would work.

These Epsons are not inexpensive models but they are highly rated. Anything that costs less would have significantly less lens shift and require the projector to be mounted much lower or the screen higher. Since you want the projector as high as possible you could then run into a situation where the screen was too high and would cause neck strain when viewing. Obviously a larger screen would change the equation, and in a large room like that a larger screen may indeed be more appropriate.

You didn't mention it yet but do you have a maximum budget in mind?

dupin67 12-12-2017 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yakapo (Post 46179513)
Ok, I did a search on this before posting, but most threads were fairly old.

I've got a 10' ceiling and I'd rather not hang the projector down 3 feet from the ceiling. This is going in my living room so I'd rather not have it hanging down that low. Also the room is 21' long so I can't just put the projector on the other side of the room. (Or can I?)

I read that some projectors can vertical shift 3 screen heights. Can someone direct me to a few of those? Thanks for your time.

Edit: for a 100" screen, I guess two screen heights of vertical shift would be enough.

Try JACK LIU Projection Calculator - it has everything you need.
You may try each model and check its lens shift range.

http://www.reviewtranslations.com/ex..._size_v1_8.png

The one with most extensive lens shift is Epson Home Cinema 5040UB.
Next to it is Sony HW45ES.

AV_Integrated 12-12-2017 07:43 PM

21' to a 120" diagonal can be done with some projectors.

Lots of vertical lens shift can be done with some projectors.

But, both of these things tend to have a cost associated with them.

At the end of the day, the Epson 5040 is one of the most versatile projectors on the market in terms of placement allowing for a ton of both zoom range and lens shift. Lens shift in this case allowing the image to be (I believe) a full image height below the center of the lens. Or at least half an image height. That's not going to be measured in inches, but in feet. Then you can move it up some if you want.

I'm not sure there is a 'cheap' alternative to deal with your 10' ceilings and keeping things tight to that ceiling. A typical basement setup has 7 or 8 foot ceilings so the average installation isn't looking for that much offset or lens shift, and they can pay less for their more typical setup.

The calculator linked above is great for giving you a good snapshot of what is possible.

itaos 12-12-2017 08:08 PM

FYI I am not the OP, just piggybacking on the topic.

The projector will be mounted on a sloped 96" ceiling to a 75" wall. It can be mounted up to 15 ft from the wall. Preferred budget < $1000

I would like to mount the projector at a 12" drop from the ceiling. Using the link above, it seems the 70% vertical lens shift offered by Sony is the minimum necessary. Any other thoughts or suggestions?

The Epson Home Cinema 4000 looks like another candidate along with the Sony.

Dave in Green 12-13-2017 03:20 PM

@itaos , there are no new projectors <$1,000 with that much lens shift. Epson sells the refurbished PowerLite Home Cinema 8350 with sufficient lens shift for <$1,000 (link below). But this is an old model that was introduced in 2010 and went out of production 2 years ago. Any refurb you got could have thousands of hours on it. I would only recommend it if you can't afford one of the models you mentioned. They are the two least expensive new models with the kind of vertical lens shift that your installation requires.

epson.com/Clearance-Center/Home-Entertainment/PowerLite-Home-Cinema-8350-1080p-3LCD-Projector---Refurbished/p/V11H373120-N

jdtsmith 12-27-2017 09:49 PM

@dupin67 That's a cool tool. But I'm not sure I understand. The Epson 5040UB has a 96.8% vertical lens shift. Yet in an example I tried, using a 54" height zoomed 2.35 image, placing my projector at the desired height 15.5" down from a tall (11'7") ceiling, the floor height of the image went from 96.4" when in default "straight ahead" mode (shift to -49.8%), to 27.4" when vertical lens shift is cranked all the way to 47%. That's a change in vertical image location of 69", or about 128% of the 54" height. That's wonderful if true, but why is it so much larger than the 96.8% shift I expected? I'm really hoping this is true to avoid a 3' pole mount...

coderguy 12-27-2017 09:58 PM

Another tool is www.webprojectorcalculator.com which shows the Lens Shift in the Details tab for 2.35 Lens Memory. You have to change the aspect to 2.35.

I specifically added a feature for doing correct 2.35 calculations for JVC / Sony / Epson lens memory, and the numbers have been hard-verified by multiple people.

This may help or may not, 96% lens shift does not apply when using 2.35 lens memory, you get less because you are restricted to the 16:9 image.

That said, if you are going to do only 2.35 content on your 2.35 screen (but who does that), then use NO lens memory, then you do get more lens shift.

jdtsmith 12-27-2017 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdtsmith (Post 55390830)
@dupin67 That's a cool tool. But I'm not sure I understand. The Epson 5040UB has a 96.8% vertical lens shift. Yet in an example I tried, using a 54" height zoomed 2.35 image, placing my projector at the desired height 15.5" down from a tall (11'7") ceiling, the floor height of the image went from 96.4" when in default "straight ahead" mode (shift to -49.8%), to 27.4" when vertical lens shift is cranked all the way to 47%. That's a change in vertical image location of 69", or about 128% of the 54" height. That's wonderful if true, but why is it so much larger than the 96.8% shift I expected? I'm really hoping this is true to avoid a 3' pole mount...

Nevermind... the reported image height for zoomed 2.35 is smaller than the actual projected image height. I.e. a 54" high 2.35 image is actually 71.4" tall (with horizontal black bars top and bottom). A 69" move is the expected 96.8% of that height.

jdtsmith 12-27-2017 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coderguy (Post 55390868)
Another tool is www.webprojectorcalculator.com which shows the Lens Shift in the Details tab for 2.35 Lens Memory. You have to change the aspect to 2.35.

Cool, thanks, glad to have more options to investigate. I eventually figured out that the image height is taking into account only the illuminated amount in zoomed 2.35 content. So yes, you get more lens shift, but only compared to the artificially curtailed image height. I tried your tool and was a bit confused. It seems for the 2.35 lens memory setting, it doesn't account for the taller actual image, resulting in about a 15-20" discrepancy in terms of projector to ceiling height required. I think you said this, but it seems that your tool does the smart thing and specs the 16:9 settings at the same image height when you choose 2.35, figuring no-one just watches 2.35.

coderguy 12-27-2017 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdtsmith (Post 55390898)
Cool, thanks, glad to have more options to investigate. I eventually figured out that the image height is taking into account only the illuminated amount in zoomed 2.35 content. So yes, you get more lens shift, but only compared to the artificially curtailed image height...

I think you are right, but just to be sure we are on the same page...

OK, so when doing 2.35 lens memory, the amount of lens shift is restricted to the size that the smaller 16:9 image fits within the 2.35 image, not outside it even though you are initially projecting a larger 16:9 image. The amount of lens shift doesn't actually have anything to do with the 2.35 aspect other than the size of 16:9 image you will be using inside the 2.35.

Hence, you will eventually (after zooming back down to 16:9) go with a much smaller 16:9. It is constrained in this manner because otherwise you wouldn't be able to re-zoom if the shift were outside the boundary of the needed smallest 16:9 image inside the 2.35 box.

This is because the re-zoom has to have enough lens shift play to zoom the 16:9 image back into the 2.35 box.

jdtsmith 12-27-2017 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coderguy (Post 55390906)
You are close, but unless I misunderstand, I think you still might be slightly off (this is confusing).

OK, so when doing 2.35 lens memory, the amount of lens shift is restricted to the size that the smaller 16:9 image fits within the 2.35 image, not outside it even though you are initially projecting a larger 16:9 image. The amount of lens shift doesn't actually have anything to do with the 2.35 aspect other than the size of 16:9 image you will be using inside the 2.35.

Hence, you will eventually (after zooming back down to 16:9) go with a much smaller 16:9. It is constrained in this manner because otherwise you wouldn't be able to re-zoom if the shift were outside the boundary of the needed smallest 16:9 image inside the 2.35 box.

This is because the re-zoom has to have enough lens shift play to zoom the 16:9 image back into the 2.35 box.

Right, I think I have it now, thanks. Curiously the solution to my problem (ceiling too high; long mount pole undesirable) seems to be to get a larger screen. Some concern about brightness in the ambient light conditions...

Thanks again.

coderguy 12-27-2017 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdtsmith (Post 55390936)
Right, I think I have it now, thanks. Curiously the solution to my problem (ceiling too high; long mount pole undesirable) seems to be to get a larger screen. Some concern about brightness in the ambient light conditions...

Thanks again.

Or a shelf mount in the back of the room also works for some rooms, either a credenza ent-center + tall hutch or something similar.

dupin67 12-27-2017 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdtsmith (Post 55390830)
@dupin67 That's a cool tool. But I'm not sure I understand. The Epson 5040UB has a 96.8% vertical lens shift. Yet in an example I tried, using a 54" height zoomed 2.35 image, placing my projector at the desired height 15.5" down from a tall (11'7") ceiling, the floor height of the image went from 96.4" when in default "straight ahead" mode (shift to -49.8%), to 27.4" when vertical lens shift is cranked all the way to 47%. That's a change in vertical image location of 69", or about 128% of the 54" height. That's wonderful if true, but why is it so much larger than the 96.8% shift I expected? I'm really hoping this is true to avoid a 3' pole mount...

Hi jdtsmith,

The 96.8% v-shift range is for 16:9 picture. I saw you have figured this out.

However, as coderguy has pointed out, zoomed 2.35 cannot be used in such a extreme position, which will cause 16:9 cannot be re-zoomed.
Haven't thought that before - I shall modify the calculator to indicate this trap.

Thanks!

Jack

jdtsmith 12-28-2017 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dupin67 (Post 55390974)
Hi jdtsmith,

The 96.8% v-shift range is for 16:9 picture. I saw you have figured this out.

However, as coderguy has pointed out, zoomed 2.35 cannot be used in such a extreme position, which will cause 16:9 cannot be re-zoomed.
Haven't thought that before - I shall modify the calculator to indicate this trap.

Itsatrap! I'm not sure which tool's behavior is more consistent or interpretable. What I think would work for both of your tools is a setting called 16:9+2.35 zoomed, and a toggle to switch back and forth between the two setting (ala lens memory), preserving constant image height. Or maybe a generic "constant image height" option which then allows you to pick several aspect ratios and switch among them.

In any case, THANKS to both of you for your work on these tools, which are helping me immensely in my planning (see this thread).

jdtsmith 12-28-2017 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coderguy (Post 55390944)
Or a shelf mount in the back of the room also works for some rooms, either a credenza ent-center + tall hutch or something similar.

That's an option I've considered, but it's a bit dicey, mostly because the room is 26.5' long, and has ambient light (so eating the light fall-off at zoom is less than desirable). Currently considering a room divider mid-room to do something similar. Comparing image brightness between your tools has been very instructive too.

Thanks again.

coderguy 12-28-2017 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdtsmith (Post 55393240)
Itsatrap! I'm not sure which tool's behavior is more consistent or interpretable. What I think would work for both of your tools is a setting called 16:9+2.35 zoomed, and a toggle to switch back and forth between the two setting (ala lens memory), preserving constant image height. Or maybe a generic "constant image height" option which then allows you to pick several aspect ratios and switch among them.

In any case, THANKS to both of you for your work on these tools, which are helping me immensely in my planning (see this thread).

I had Mike @ AVS test my calc, and we confirmed it is accurate for 2.35 lens memory.

My calculator is showing the correct lens shift for the 2.35 lens memory when someone also needs 16:9 viewing (that is the default automatically), that is assuming you will also be using 16:9. Use the details tab to take a look at the exact measurement in inches/cm available for lens shift, the slider controls are just giving you an approximation (a close approximation, but an estimate none-the-less).

I chose not to add regular 2.35 as it would confuse people and it's really not very useful as so few people are going to be doing CIH without ever watching 16:9.

It used to have that option, but I removed it and have no plans to add it back as it only confused people. I am happy enough just showing people the correct value without most people knowing why they are seeing the correct value...

As far as saying "16:9+2.35", that's a given already since Lens Memory literally means the ability to switch back and forth between the two.

jdtsmith 12-28-2017 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coderguy (Post 55394672)
I had Mike @ AVS test my calc, and we confirmed it is accurate for 2.35 lens memory.

My calculator is showing the correct lens shift for the 2.35 lens memory when someone also needs 16:9 viewing (that is the default automatically), that is assuming you will also be using 16:9. Use the details tab to take a look at the exact measurement in inches/cm available for lens shift, the slider controls are just giving you an approximation (a close approximation, but an estimate none-the-less).

I chose not to add regular 2.35 as it would confuse people and it's really not very useful as so few people are going to be doing CIH without ever watching 16:9.

It used to have that option, but I removed it and have no plans to add it back as it only confused people. I am happy enough just showing people the correct value without most people knowing why they are seeing the correct value...

As far as saying "16:9+2.35", that's a given already since Lens Memory literally means the ability to switch back and forth between the two.

Fair enough. But some means of pretending to toggle your lens memory back and forth at CIH would be very helpful I think.

dupin67 01-01-2018 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdtsmith (Post 55395188)
Fair enough. But some means of pretending to toggle your lens memory back and forth at CIH would be very helpful I think.

Just FYI, a new version of Jack Liu Projection Calculator has been released to address the issue of zoom/lens memory limitation.

(From release notes)
1) For Zoomed 2.35:1 option, limit the zoom/lens shift range to allow for re-zoom to 16:9 pic with the same height.
2) Disabled Zoomed 2.35:1 option for projectors have no enough zoom and lens shift range.
3) Highlighted above zoom and lens shift limitation for Zoomed 2.35:1 option with a new information window.
4) For picture front view, use darker blue to highlight the 2.35:1 picture inside the 16:9 picture, and vice versa.
5) Added a new line into Picture Size section, to show diagonal of the 2.35:1 picture inside 16:9 picture, and vice versa.

Hope this helps!

Jack

http://www.reviewtranslations.com/example/pip_1.png

http://www.reviewtranslations.com/example/pip_3.png

http://www.reviewtranslations.com/example/pip_2.png


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