Official Epson 5040ub/6040ub owners thread - Page 152 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4531 of 18085 Old 12-30-2016, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrider View Post
I´m interested to hear what you think when you get it.
I bought 5040ub after month of thinking between that and a Sony 75 940D. But my conculsion was that sure the 940D will give me better image quality. But I don´t think I can go down in screen size(Already had a sanyo z2000 and 90 inch screen). So I went for 5040ub and a 106 inch screen .
I'm sure you understand it was a tough decision.

My wife and I had a good discussion about it all... With all of my "sales-pitch" about why we should keep the 940D, she said "I'm not moved by science and tech specs. I just go by the effect it creates on me and the 75" doesn't take me there like the BIG screen does (projector)."
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post #4532 of 18085 Old 12-30-2016, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by kanerator View Post
Every time I think I am off the fence on projector choice, I read another forum and that puts me back on the fence. And it's not just a question of demo-ing different projector choices and picking the best picture. I've narrowed my choices down to Epson 6040, JVC Rs600, or a Sony 4k. But the problem is that each of them have their own inherent issues.
The Sony's have this rarely discussed issue of contrast deterioration (in as little as 500 hours according to some forum posters).
The JVC have the issue of uneven brightness across the panel, particularly around the edges.
I had pretty much decided on the Epson 6040, but I am now reading that the Epson has issues with handling 12 bit 4.4.4, and worse I am reading lots of owners complaining about ghosting on 3d (one of the main reasons I wanted to upgrade my projector was to get 3d capable) and the dreaded green dust blobs.
It kinda becomes a case of which problems do I want to risk or live with.
Then, of course, there is the old "do I wait to see what next year brings in price drop and tech innovation." I, like most of you tech followers was super excited about UHD and HDR, but in reading the forums in the past few weeks, so many people have mentioned how terrible the UHD discs look with HDR enabled because of the lack of brightness of projectors. The experts even say that most tv's can't produce the 1000 nits required to fully utilise HDR. If watching UHD HDR discs requires purchasing a $100,000 plus projector to get to the brightness level required to enjoy this new technology, I'm uncertain how it is going to be embraced by the projector crowd. People seem to be getting benefit from UHD SDR set-ups and the clarity of these pixel shifting and 4k projectors on blu-ray and dvd is a step up and worth the upgrade, but UHD HDR could go the way of 3d and SACD as a stepping stone to some new technology rather than a destination. 3d may be superseded by VR just as SACD has been superseded by blu-ray lossless audio and audio formats like Atmos and DTS:X ( if the music industry would wake up and embrace them). I love tech, but the need to upgrade equipment every 3 to 5 years is difficult. My 4 year old, top of the line Pioneer amp is useless for Atmos , 3d Auro, or DTS:X. My Oppo needs to be upgraded to the 203 model to do UHD, speakers need to be added for Atmos and my projector needs to be upgraded for 4k and 3d.
i know what you mean. If i were you; i'd keep waiting. 2017 or 2018 should bring some real good native 2160p 4k projector options that feature full 18GPS HDMI inputs; until you see the spec "native 2160p" and "18gbps HDMI" inputs; the option should be off your list. = ) There are other options such as HDMI 2.0a; HDR, dolby vision; WCG wide color gamut; DCI-P3 and/or BT.2020.
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post #4533 of 18085 Old 12-30-2016, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by am2model3 View Post
i know what you mean. If i were you; i'd keep waiting. 2017 or 2018 should bring some real good native 2160p 4k projector options that feature full 18GPS HDMI inputs; until you see the spec "native 2160p" and "18gbps HDMI" inputs; the option should be off your list. = ) There are other options such as HDMI 2.0a; HDR, dolby vision; WCG wide color gamut; DCI-P3 and/or BT.2020.
And note that broadcast TV may be moving to Hybrid-Log-Gamma (HLG) type of HDR. The BBC is testing this at the moment. One more feature for a PJ to have to support, although it is possible this can be added in firmware.
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post #4534 of 18085 Old 12-30-2016, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by rjguk View Post
And note that broadcast TV may be moving to Hybrid-Log-Gamma (HLG) type of HDR. The BBC is testing this at the moment. One more feature for a PJ to have to support, although it is possible this can be added in firmware.
Does it really matter?

I mean, current projectors can't really reproduce true HDR so why worry about broadcast HDR which is a long way off in the future.

In order for projectors to even come close to reproducing true HDR they will have to get brightness levels way up and black levels way down. In addition they will have to do that in the BT2020 colorspace and produce accurate color while achieving the bright projection levels.

New LED TVs are starting to hit the 2000 and 3000 nit level which is about 600 to 900 foot-lambert equivalent. Most projectors are only producing 20 - 30 FL on a 120" screen. In addition the black levels on new fald LED tvs are equivalent or better than plasma. Projection systems on a white screen just can't hit those same levels.

HDR just doesn't translate well to projection systems. I expect that meta data will be added to HDR10 in the near future and that will help out projection systems in the future to simulate HDR better but I doubt they will ever achieve the same level of impact that HDR on a led tv can provide.
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post #4535 of 18085 Old 12-30-2016, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by am2model3 View Post
i know what you mean. If i were you; i'd keep waiting. 2017 or 2018 should bring some real good native 2160p 4k projector options that feature full 18GPS HDMI inputs; until you see the spec "native 2160p" and "18gbps HDMI" inputs; the option should be off your list. = ) There are other options such as HDMI 2.0a; HDR, dolby vision; WCG wide color gamut; DCI-P3 and/or BT.2020.
Get the Epson for service and dedication to product quality. They can't be beat. Any wrinkles now inherent will be solved by people in this forum and good companies like Oppo and Epson, take good care of their customers. If I was going for flat panel, it would be Sony. But, I love this Epson 5040UB, a little more every day. And, I don't even have my 4K disc player yet. The Oppo 203, arrives next Tuesday. You could spend your whole life waiting for something better. Waiting for a year or two and the E companies will have you salivating for 8K.
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post #4536 of 18085 Old 12-30-2016, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregCh View Post
Does it really matter?

I mean, current projectors can't really reproduce true HDR so why worry about broadcast HDR which is a long way off in the future.

In order for projectors to even come close to reproducing true HDR they will have to get brightness levels way up and black levels way down. In addition they will have to do that in the BT2020 colorspace and produce accurate color while achieving the bright projection levels.

New LED TVs are starting to hit the 2000 and 3000 nit level which is about 600 to 900 foot-lambert equivalent. Most projectors are only producing 20 - 30 FL on a 120" screen. In addition the black levels on new fald LED tvs are equivalent or better than plasma. Projection systems on a white screen just can't hit those same levels.

HDR just doesn't translate well to projection systems. I expect that meta data will be added to HDR10 in the near future and that will help out projection systems in the future to simulate HDR better but I doubt they will ever achieve the same level of impact that HDR on a led tv can provide.
I agree about HDR using HDR10, it is mastered for high-brightness displays. The thing about HLG is that it doesn't depend on high-brightness displays, it will improve the dynamic range even for devices that can only hit fairly low brightness levels, it is a non-linear brightness scheme. I suspect it will be in use fairly quickly if the BBC trials are a guide. The adoption of 2160/50p UHD as the output of millions of UK SkyQ boxes caught quite a few manufacturers out, and we can expect more of that in the future. The 2016 events in the link below are interesting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Log-Gamma

HLG appears to use Rec. 2100.

Yes, projectors don't do it as well, but HLG is probably their best hope of doing it better than now.
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post #4537 of 18085 Old 12-30-2016, 11:46 AM
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I'm bumping my own questions. They were on the bottom of a page.



Quote:
Originally Posted by bluer101 View Post
I have 2 quick questions.

1. From what I read the 5040 has no cooldown after turning off, correct? Mine just turns off after lens close.

2. Also I noticed after the lens closes when turning off I get a short grunting from fast to slow. Like less that 2 seconds. Is this normal?

I don't think I heard it last week but I'm now listing for it, lol. The only thing I changed in settings from last week is auto iris to high speed from normal. Maybe the iris motor?
Here is a video. The first sound is the lens cover closing but the sound at the end like a groan is in question. I tried auto iris off and still that sound.

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post #4538 of 18085 Old 12-30-2016, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Johnson 3 View Post
...the 75" doesn't take me there like the BIG screen does (projector)..
75" is a BIG screen... >100" is an immersive experience!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregCh View Post
Does it really matter?

I mean, current projectors can't really reproduce true HDR so why worry about broadcast HDR which is a long way off in the future.

In order for projectors to even come close to reproducing true HDR they will have to get brightness levels way up and black levels way down. In addition they will have to do that in the BT2020 colorspace and produce accurate color while achieving the bright projection levels.

New LED TVs are starting to hit the 2000 and 3000 nit level which is about 600 to 900 foot-lambert equivalent. Most projectors are only producing 20 - 30 FL on a 120" screen. In addition the black levels on new fald LED tvs are equivalent or better than plasma. Projection systems on a white screen just can't hit those same levels.

HDR just doesn't translate well to projection systems. I expect that meta data will be added to HDR10 in the near future and that will help out projection systems in the future to simulate HDR better but I doubt they will ever achieve the same level of impact that HDR on a led tv can provide.
Quote:
Originally Posted by john barlow View Post
Get the Epson for service and dedication to product quality. They can't be beat. Any wrinkles now inherent will be solved by people in this forum and good companies like Oppo and Epson, take good care of their customers. If I was going for flat panel, it would be Sony. But, I love this Epson 5040UB, a little more every day. And, I don't even have my 4K disc player yet. The Oppo 203, arrives next Tuesday. You could spend your whole life waiting for something better. Waiting for a year or two and the E companies will have you salivating for 8K.
+1 +1 +1

There will always be two schools of thought. One school for those who wait for perfection. And the other school for those who get to enjoy what's available now. I'm a graduate of the latter school!
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post #4539 of 18085 Old 12-30-2016, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
It sounds like maybe your source and display aren't set to the same setting. Almost like the source is expanded and being squished into the limited range, clipping WTW. Therefore setting to expanded opens it up to allow it to display.

What's your source device and all your settings? What is your "Super White" setting?
Just in case I am not explaining what's happening very well, here are some pictures.

Both are with the contrast cranked way too high so it is easy to see what's happening in pictures.

Normal mode:


Expanded:


Pictures are not very good but you can see that in normal mode everything above 16 is clipped but in expanded you can see above 16.

Both pictures are with the contrast set to 70 and no matter how high you crank the contrast with hdmi video range set to normal you never see anything above 16.

So should I calibrate with normal or expanded mode enabled as I am very confused.
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post #4540 of 18085 Old 12-30-2016, 12:51 PM
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How is this projector with maintaining sharpness/focus? With my current DLP I have to re-adjust the manual focus ring every hour or so as it drifts on it's own and the PQ becomes fuzzy.
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post #4541 of 18085 Old 12-30-2016, 12:51 PM
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Forgot to also include the effect on contrast.

Normal:


Expanded:



As you can see with normal lots of clipping and this is why calman is also telling me that whites are being clipped.

What I have discovered is that if you have normal mode active and the enable Epson super white the whites are no longer clipped and you can see the full range just like expanded mode is active.

It also seems to have no effect on the brightness test pattern in terms of it being altered when switching between on and off.
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post #4542 of 18085 Old 12-30-2016, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Johnson 3 View Post
It's official! I returned the Sony 75" 940D last night! I have an Epson 5040ube on order! Also doing a screen size increase to a Silver Ticket fixed 120" gray screen! I decided against any drop-down screens as I can't stand wrinkles! I'll just keep the Sony 65" in the closet and set it up in front of the PJ screen when needed.

I hope the Panny ub900 pairs well with the Epson...

Are my TDGBT500A Sony active 3D glasses going to work with the Epson? Or should I return those and get something different?

It was funny being in line at BB last night, "What's wrong with the TV? Too big?"
"No, too SMALL!" My wife's happy. I'm happy if she is.


Conratulations!!! Let us know how things turn out.

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post #4543 of 18085 Old 12-30-2016, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
+1 for Philips..
Thanks, went and picked it up today and installed it a little bit ago. I think I am good to go for awhile now and am going to sit back and enjoy the 4040 for the next few years..very happy with it. Its my first projector purchase.
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post #4544 of 18085 Old 12-30-2016, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by 2 Stangs View Post
How is this projector with maintaining sharpness/focus? With my current DLP I have to re-adjust the manual focus ring every hour or so as it drifts on it's own and the PQ becomes fuzzy.


I've paid close attention to this since I purchased it a couple of months ago. I can tell you I have never noticed the focus drifting at all. Every time I've checked the focus is perfectly maintained and extremely sharp.
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post #4545 of 18085 Old 12-30-2016, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboar View Post
Thanks, went and picked it up today and installed it a little bit ago. I think I am good to go for awhile now and am going to sit back and enjoy the 4040 for the next few years..very happy with it. Its my first projector purchase.
Where did you buy the rack blank with a cut out that fits the Phillips? I think I NEED one of those!

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post #4546 of 18085 Old 12-30-2016, 06:36 PM
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Where did you buy the rack blank with a cut out that fits the Phillips? I think I NEED one of those!
I took a regular blank and cut out a 2.5x8.750 opening then after I tested fit I marked where the eject and power buttons are and used a .750 bit with center at edge of opening and drilled 2 half circles so my finger could reach the buttons if ever needed.
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post #4547 of 18085 Old 12-30-2016, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboar View Post
Thanks, went and picked it up today and installed it a little bit ago. I think I am good to go for awhile now and am going to sit back and enjoy the 4040 for the next few years..very happy with it. Its my first projector purchase.
Looks pretty darn fantastic in that rack.
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post #4548 of 18085 Old 12-30-2016, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboar View Post
Thanks, went and picked it up today and installed it a little bit ago. I think I am good to go for awhile now and am going to sit back and enjoy the 4040 for the next few years..very happy with it. Its my first projector purchase.
Very nice

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post #4549 of 18085 Old 12-30-2016, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrider View Post
I´m interested to hear what you think when you get it.
I bought 5040ub after month of thinking between that and a Sony 75 940D. But my conculsion was that sure the 940D will give me better image quality. But I don´t think I can go down in screen size(Already had a sanyo z2000 and 90 inch screen). So I went for 5040ub and a 106 inch screen .
I had to send my 5040 back due to the hdmi inputs stopped working. I was also considering the 940d or getting another 5040. Please let us know what you think.
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post #4550 of 18085 Old 12-30-2016, 07:32 PM
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Took some comparison shots of my 5040UB playing the Magnificent 7 Blu-ray on the Oppo 203 and then the 4K Ultra HD disc.

In the composite images the first picture is the Blu-ray (it is being upconverted by the Oppo 203 and it is in the Bright Cinema color mode), the second is the 4K disc defaulted in Bright Cinema to HDR 2 and the third image is the 4K disc in Bright Cinema with the HDR 1 preset.

I have not calibrated the projector so all picture settings are default.








Pre/Pro: Marantz 8805 AMPS: Outlaw Audio 7700 & Emotiva Gen 3
Spkrs: GoldenEar T-Ref, SC Ref, SS 3's, T5's & HTR 7000 x 4 Sub: SVS SB16 x 2
Display: Epson 5050UB & 110" SI 7 Series Zero Edge Black Diamond
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post #4551 of 18085 Old 12-30-2016, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndabunka View Post
I can confirm that the FI option IS AVAILABLE while running 4k enhancement AS LONG AS the frame rate is set to the 24fps that is used by BluRay DVDs. The only time FI is not available (as described above) is when one is running the signalling at the higher 60Hz frame rates. In those cases, FI is greyed out as described in the review quoted above.
ndabunka

Sorry to bring up this old post, but how do you set the frame rate to 24fps? Isn't that automatically set based on the source material? I'm playing a Blu-ray and the Info screen shows a 23.98 Hz refresh rate but the frame interpolation option is still grayed out.

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post #4552 of 18085 Old 12-30-2016, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Budny View Post
Took some comparison shots of my 5040UB playing the Magnificent 7 Blu-ray on the Oppo 203 and then the 4K Ultra HD disc.

In the composite images the first picture is the Blu-ray (it is being upconverted by the Oppo 203 and it is in the Bright Cinema color mode), the second is the 4K disc defaulted in Bright Cinema to HDR 2 and the third image is the 4K disc in Bright Cinema with the HDR 1 preset.

I have not calibrated the projector so all picture settings are default.







I'm seeing similar results with my 5040UB + Oppo 203. I'm relatively new to the whole 4K game, but I thought everything was supposed to be 'brighter', 'clearer', 'sharper', more vibrant, etc. So I bit the bullet on all these upgrades for my theater, bought a couple 4K Bluray, sat down with my popcorn ready to be amazed, and was very underwhelmed and disappointed by how dark everything looks. Am I just missing something with a setting somewhere or calibration?

1080p regular Bluray looks great in Bright Cinema using projectorreviews.com calibration settings, but 4K looks like a dark muddy mess. I've played around with settings, but I feel like I'm missing something obvious...
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post #4553 of 18085 Old 12-30-2016, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by spiff0013 View Post
I'm seeing similar results with my 5040UB + Oppo 203. I'm relatively new to the whole 4K game, but I thought everything was supposed to be 'brighter', 'clearer', 'sharper', more vibrant, etc. So I bit the bullet on all these upgrades for my theater, bought a couple 4K Bluray, sat down with my popcorn ready to be amazed, and was very underwhelmed and disappointed by how dark everything looks. Am I just missing something with a setting somewhere or calibration?



1080p regular Bluray looks great in Bright Cinema using projectorreviews.com calibration settings, but 4K looks like a dark muddy mess. I've played around with settings, but I feel like I'm missing something obvious...


Look at the clouds in the first set of photos. Third image is fantastic.


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post #4554 of 18085 Old 12-30-2016, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spiff0013 View Post
I'm seeing similar results with my 5040UB + Oppo 203. I'm relatively new to the whole 4K game, but I thought everything was supposed to be 'brighter', 'clearer', 'sharper', more vibrant, etc. So I bit the bullet on all these upgrades for my theater, bought a couple 4K Bluray, sat down with my popcorn ready to be amazed, and was very underwhelmed and disappointed by how dark everything looks. Am I just missing something with a setting somewhere or calibration?

1080p regular Bluray looks great in Bright Cinema using projectorreviews.com calibration settings, but 4K looks like a dark muddy mess. I've played around with settings, but I feel like I'm missing something obvious...
As you eluded to, everything is brighter, clearer, sharper, and more vibrant. The dark images require an understanding of HDR and how it relates to projectors at this time.

To familiarize yourself with some of the contributing factors and solutions, please search this thread for "HDR and dark images/pictures" or review posts in this thread starting at the beginning of December. Some members have posted their personal settings and or solutions...i.e. see @rupedogg24 (post #3758) and @bezlar (post #3681) for differing preferences. Bottom line, there appears to be an inconsistency in UHD mastering and current projectors do not yet have the same lumen capability of flat panel displays for optimum HDR performance.
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Epson: 5040UB | Elite: 115" Fixed Frame CinemaScope (2.35:1) | Onkyo: TX-RZ920 + M-5010 (7.2.4) | Klipsch: RF-7 II's, RC-64 II, RS-62 II, RB-61 II MICCA: M-8C (Atmos) x 6 | SVS: PB16-Ultra x 2 | Philips: BDP7501, Panasonic: DMP UB900, Oppo: UDP-203
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post #4555 of 18085 Old 12-30-2016, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
Forgot to also include the effect on contrast.

Normal:


Expanded:



As you can see with normal lots of clipping and this is why calman is also telling me that whites are being clipped.

What I have discovered is that if you have normal mode active and the enable Epson super white the whites are no longer clipped and you can see the full range just like expanded mode is active.

It also seems to have no effect on the brightness test pattern in terms of it being altered when switching between on and off.
Super white "on" is indeed the right setting.
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post #4556 of 18085 Old 12-30-2016, 11:36 PM
 
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Official Epson 5040ub/6040ub owners thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by MDesigns View Post
If we are talking about the projectors setting, doesn't it work like this:

When using normal, the projector uses it's full dynamic range to display values 16-235 and you are not able to see 0-15 and 236-255. When you change to expanded, you can see all the levels including the 0-15 and 236-255.

But since the BTB(0-15) and WTW(236-255) levels usually doesn't contain any information, normal mode is recommended. Also with normal mode you are not wasting brightness to displaying WTW signals.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
My source is a Panasonic UB700 set to normal mode which another poster tells me is video mode.



My pattern generator is a lumagen radiance with levels set to video.



I have super white off but turning it on stops the clipping occuring.



What does super white actually do?


Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
Just in case I am not explaining what's happening very well, here are some pictures.



Both are with the contrast cranked way too high so it is easy to see what's happening in pictures.



Normal mode:





Expanded:





Pictures are not very good but you can see that in normal mode everything above 16 is clipped but in expanded you can see above 16.



Both pictures are with the contrast set to 70 and no matter how high you crank the contrast with hdmi video range set to normal you never see anything above 16.



So should I calibrate with normal or expanded mode enabled as I am very confused.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
Forgot to also include the effect on contrast.



Normal:





Expanded:







As you can see with normal lots of clipping and this is why calman is also telling me that whites are being clipped.



What I have discovered is that if you have normal mode active and the enable Epson super white the whites are no longer clipped and you can see the full range just like expanded mode is active.



It also seems to have no effect on the brightness test pattern in terms of it being altered when switching between on and off.

This explains it all way better than I ever could. Sometimes I confuse myself too, and I probably did with you as well!

This link also explains "Super White", which is basically just allowing whiter than white above 236.

http://referencehometheater.com/2014...ll-vs-limited/
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post #4557 of 18085 Old 12-31-2016, 02:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spiff0013 View Post
I'm seeing similar results with my 5040UB + Oppo 203. I'm relatively new to the whole 4K game, but I thought everything was supposed to be 'brighter', 'clearer', 'sharper', more vibrant, etc. So I bit the bullet on all these upgrades for my theater, bought a couple 4K Bluray, sat down with my popcorn ready to be amazed, and was very underwhelmed and disappointed by how dark everything looks. Am I just missing something with a setting somewhere or calibration?

1080p regular Bluray looks great in Bright Cinema using projectorreviews.com calibration settings, but 4K looks like a dark muddy mess. I've played around with settings, but I feel like I'm missing something obvious...
To look at hdr images with the wider color gamut bt2020, you should use the cinema or digital cinema mode. You'll hear a filter coming in front of the light pad enabeling a wider gamut. For hdr, Lots of people manually change the hdr2 mode to hdr1. This gives an overall brighter image, bit clips a lot of higher regions

I've tried and tested a lot of settings. Peronally i prefer upping the brightnes to about 60 and leave the hdr mode to automatic (2). With hdr I set the epson superwhite to "off". These two settings don't clip as much white as the hdr1 mode, but gives an overall bright and nice picture imo.
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post #4558 of 18085 Old 12-31-2016, 04:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
This explains it all way better than I ever could. Sometimes I confuse myself too, and I probably did with you as well!

This link also explains "Super White", which is basically just allowing whiter than white above 236.

http://referencehometheater.com/2014...ll-vs-limited/
So just to confirm before doing calibration I should set HDMI video range to "Normal" and Epson Super White turned on?

It's just that even when Epson Super White is enabled you still cant see above video black with the black clipping pattern.
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Last edited by AdamAttewell; 12-31-2016 at 04:13 AM.
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post #4559 of 18085 Old 12-31-2016, 04:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
So just to confirm before doing calibration I should set HDMI video range to "Normal" and Epson Super White turned on?
Yes
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post #4560 of 18085 Old 12-31-2016, 04:16 AM
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Originally Posted by nielvm View Post
Yes
Even though black still clips in normal mode with super white turned on?
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