Official Epson 5040ub/6040ub owners thread - Page 467 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #13981 of 18092 Old 04-18-2018, 03:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Category5 View Post
Can you define what 'noise' means to you? Any examples you can point to from movies you've seen?
It looks similar to grain found in film photographs, but can also look like splotches of discoloration when it's really bad.
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post #13982 of 18092 Old 04-18-2018, 03:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by OrcusVaruna View Post
The 4K enhancement of 1080p sources I find is pretty much garbage but true 4K material with image enhancement turned off is sharp with virtually no noise. As you up the range and strength of the image enhancement settings is when I find it gets noisy. And me like yourself is allergic to image noise lol


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I concur. Your post mirrors my experience exactly.
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post #13983 of 18092 Old 04-18-2018, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Category5 View Post
Can you define what 'noise' means to you? Any examples you can point to from movies you've seen?


Literally every scene in the last jedi lol


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post #13984 of 18092 Old 04-18-2018, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by OrcusVaruna View Post
Literally every scene in the last jedi lol


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It's shot mostly on 35mm film... it's not noise, it's grain and it's supposed to be there. If the filmmkaers wanted it to be grain free and smooth and sharp they could have shot it on any digital video camera... But they didn't because they want the grain to be there.
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post #13985 of 18092 Old 04-18-2018, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Uppsalaing View Post
It's shot mostly on 35mm film... it's not noise, it's grain and it's supposed to be there. If the filmmkaers wanted it to be grain free and smooth and sharp they could have shot it on any digital video camera... But they didn't because they want the grain to be there.


I have to disagree, yes some of it is film grain but most of that is post processing noise due to the ****ty special effects in order to cover up that they are terrible. Which is strange given the budget, but that movie had some of the worst special effects I’ve seen. Flying princess, fathier race scene, bb8 goes mech warrior, etc just terrible special effects and a soft noise riddled image.


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post #13986 of 18092 Old 04-18-2018, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by OrcusVaruna View Post
The 4K enhancement of 1080p sources I find is pretty much garbage but true 4K material with image enhancement turned off is sharp with virtually no noise. As you up the range and strength of the image enhancement settings is when I find it gets noisy. And me like yourself is allergic to image noise lol


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Originally Posted by LumensLover View Post
I had the 6040 before this. It had noisy images as well with 4K eshift activated. I just think this is a poor implementation of 4K eshift by Epson. I have a sharp eye and I can detect any noise added to an image. Maybe some others cannot but it does not fool my eye.

Jvc's version of eshift adds some noise to the image as well. But nothing nearly as bad as Epson's version in my opinion.

I dont upscale 1080p content either. 4k enhancement and Eshift are 2 different things. The eshift on 4k material works fantastic and gives a much sharper image than 1080p. Success!
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post #13987 of 18092 Old 04-18-2018, 09:16 PM
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Has anyone optimized calibration for AppleTV, specifically when using Infuse? I’ve tried a dozen different sets of settings from this thread and results are consistently mixed.
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post #13988 of 18092 Old 04-18-2018, 09:57 PM
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Natural vs Cinema vs Digital Cinema

Hi. Just bought the 5040 and am going to be setting up for use in the next few days. I've been actively reading this thread and looking at settings and there's one thing that still is not clear to me. Can anyone clearly explain the difference between Natural, Cinema, and Digital Cinema modes? I'm clear on Digital Cinema applying the color filter to allow full DCI-P3 from UHD sources. And Natural most closely matches Rec.709 color space out of the box. So Cinema is the one that is completely unclear to me. Does it or does it not apply the filter? If it does, how is it different from Digital Cinema, and if it doesn't how is it different from Natural?

The trend I'm seeing is that most of the BD Setting recommendations are split between Natural and Cinema depending on personal preference? And most of the UHD recommendations are split between Digital Cinema and Bright Cinema depending on if people prioritize WCG or HDR.
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post #13989 of 18092 Old 04-19-2018, 01:57 AM
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Official Epson 5040ub/6040ub owners thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClerkDante View Post
Has anyone optimized calibration for AppleTV, specifically when using Infuse? I’ve tried a dozen different sets of settings from this thread and results are consistently mixed.

Yes I have done this. Please note that using settings from this thread is in no way calibration. The data that has been shared in the calibration thread clearly show that these 5040s have a high degree of variability out of the box. It also clearly shows that accurate settings will be very different based on your screen size and type, throw distance, data source (e.g. ATV).

Everyone thinks their settings are the greatest. I'm highly confident that measurements would show that any copied settings or those done by eye have pretty large errors.

So if you want an optimized calibration for the ATV with your set up, by definition that requires a measurement based approach and not copying someone else's settings.




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post #13990 of 18092 Old 04-19-2018, 02:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epetti View Post
Hi. Just bought the 5040 and am going to be setting up for use in the next few days. I've been actively reading this thread and looking at settings and there's one thing that still is not clear to me. Can anyone clearly explain the difference between Natural, Cinema, and Digital Cinema modes? I'm clear on Digital Cinema applying the color filter to allow full DCI-P3 from UHD sources. And Natural most closely matches Rec.709 color space out of the box. So Cinema is the one that is completely unclear to me. Does it or does it not apply the filter? If it does, how is it different from Digital Cinema, and if it doesn't how is it different from Natural?

The trend I'm seeing is that most of the BD Setting recommendations are split between Natural and Cinema depending on personal preference? And most of the UHD recommendations are split between Digital Cinema and Bright Cinema depending on if people prioritize WCG or HDR.
Cinema also uses the filter you should be able to hear it move into position the same as Digital Cinema
reviewers have found that Dig Cinema is closest to DCI-P3 out of the box as a starting point to calibrate from
At the moment UHD discs are mastered to DCI-P3

Again Natural has been found to be the closest out of the box to Rec.709 as a starting point for calibration

IMO anything else becomes user preference
many people initially don't like a calibrated image as it is so different to the OOTB default Bright Cinema
The same that applies to the shop / store "dynamic" setting for TV's which is only there to catch your attention against competing manufacturers
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post #13991 of 18092 Old 04-19-2018, 02:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epetti View Post
Hi. Just bought the 5040 and am going to be setting up for use in the next few days. I've been actively reading this thread and looking at settings and there's one thing that still is not clear to me. Can anyone clearly explain the difference between Natural, Cinema, and Digital Cinema modes? I'm clear on Digital Cinema applying the color filter to allow full DCI-P3 from UHD sources. And Natural most closely matches Rec.709 color space out of the box. So Cinema is the one that is completely unclear to me. Does it or does it not apply the filter? If it does, how is it different from Digital Cinema, and if it doesn't how is it different from Natural?



The trend I'm seeing is that most of the BD Setting recommendations are split between Natural and Cinema depending on personal preference? And most of the UHD recommendations are split between Digital Cinema and Bright Cinema depending on if people prioritize WCG or HDR.


A lot of the variation comes down to screen size/type and room environment. The modes that use the color filter are virtually useless to me as mine is located in my living room with plenty of windows, white walls and almost always some lights on. I also much prefer viewing an image that tracks closer to 7500k then 6500k. Finally, If you want a true calibration hiring an isf or thx technician is worth the $400-600 imo especially if you have a dedicated theater. If your buying this projector your theater build cost has likely cruised well past 5k at this point so think of a calibration as a value added investment haha


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post #13992 of 18092 Old 04-19-2018, 03:00 AM
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Originally Posted by mraub View Post
I permanently installed my new 5040 last weekend and have been experimenting with some settings. When the lamp is in Eco mode I notice a considerable amount of flickering in the image. At first I thought it might be the automatic iris, but disabling that function made no difference. The flickering completely goes away when I change the lamp mode to Medium.


I'm wondering if the flickering on Eco mode presages the dreaded power supply failure, or whether it is just a quirk in my unit. Eco mode was too dim for my tastes, so I won't be using it again for that reason. I hate to go to all the trouble of taking it off the ceiling for repair, but if a future power supply failure is likely I'll gut it up and do it.


Thanks.
I had to replace my unit due to power supply failure. The original unit exhibited zero flicker in Eco mode. The replacement unit however, does sometimes flicker in Eco mode. As a result, I'd say the two things are not connected and that the flicker is much more likely a bulb issue. I've 'solved' the problem by running in Medium lamp mode and adjusting my settings a little to compensate for the (slight) extra brightness.

I have also read reports of other makes having some flicker in the lowest lamp mode.
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post #13993 of 18092 Old 04-19-2018, 03:04 AM
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Originally Posted by LumensLover View Post
This topic has been discussed in the over $3,000 projector section. The people that are wowed by Epson eshift and can't see it's flaws tend to be the people in this lower-budget section who have not seen native 4K models from Sony and superior eshift models from JVC.
Ah - I get it now. Elitism is the answer, or the problem, depending on the POV.

I've seen plenty of high end PJs on demo. I agree that e-shift does not make a PJ a 4K PJ. But eshift is not the pile of garbage you are saying it is by any means.

But the answer to the problem you have is simple: drop $15,000 on a genuine 4K PJ and enjoy.
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post #13994 of 18092 Old 04-19-2018, 04:46 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by LumensLover View Post
This topic has been discussed in the over $3,000 projector section. The people that are wowed by Epson eshift and can't see it's flaws tend to be the people in this lower-budget section who have not seen native 4K models from Sony and superior eshift models from JVC.
Ah - I get it now. Elitism is the answer, or the problem, depending on the POV. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif[/IMG]

I've seen plenty of high end PJs on demo. I agree that e-shift does not make a PJ a 4K PJ. But eshift is not the pile of garbage you are saying it is by any means.

But the answer to the problem you have is simple: drop $15,000 on a genuine 4K PJ and enjoy.
I've seen Epsons e-shift in person and it looks great, and for about $2k, it's quite an amazing deal. It's silly elitism to compare projectors costing several thousand more. Epson is the best bang for your buck, easily.

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post #13995 of 18092 Old 04-19-2018, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by blake18 View Post
I've seen Epsons e-shift in person and it looks great, and for about $2k, it's quite an amazing deal. It's silly elitism to compare projectors costing several thousand more. Epson is the best bang for your buck, easily.
+1.
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post #13996 of 18092 Old 04-19-2018, 07:12 AM
 
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Originally Posted by blake18 View Post
I've seen Epsons e-shift in person and it looks great, and for about $2k, it's quite an amazing deal. It's silly elitism to compare projectors costing several thousand more. Epson is the best bang for your buck, easily.
Fanboy is worse than elitism.
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post #13997 of 18092 Old 04-19-2018, 07:13 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Ah - I get it now. Elitism is the answer, or the problem, depending on the POV.

I've seen plenty of high end PJs on demo. I agree that e-shift does not make a PJ a 4K PJ. But eshift is not the pile of garbage you are saying it is by any means.

But the answer to the problem you have is simple: drop $15,000 on a genuine 4K PJ and enjoy.
I don't care about 4K since the content is slim to none. So Epson's e-shift does not make any difference to me because I don't use it. A bunch of bells and whistles such as 3D, eshift, and motorized zoom don't mean anything to me. I'd much rather have a more simplistic, durable model.

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post #13998 of 18092 Old 04-19-2018, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by LumensLover View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by blake18 View Post
I've seen Epsons e-shift in person and it looks great, and for about $2k, it's quite an amazing deal. It's silly elitism to compare projectors costing several thousand more. Epson is the best bang for your buck, easily.
Fanboy is worse than elitism.
Haha, go away.

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post #13999 of 18092 Old 04-19-2018, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by LumensLover View Post
I don't care about 4K since the content is slim to none.
Oh OK. It's just that you seemed to care about it a lot in your earlier posts about it. Content is increasing all the time though. More and more new movies are coming along in UHD disc form. Soon it will be pretty much the norm. I have well over 1000 Blu-rays though, so it will be some time before UHD overtakes that lot. But I am buying the UHD discs now as there is no downside to them, they have immersive audio, and they are the future (in so far as disc based media is).

'Slim to none' is not really accurate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LumensLover View Post
So Epson's e-shift does not make any difference to me because I don't use it. A bunch of bells and whistles such as 3D, eshift, and motorized zoom don't mean anything to me. I'd much rather have a more simplistic, durable model.
Fair enough. I am always a champion of choice. But since you personally have no use for eshift technologies, why bring up your personal view of them in a thread dedicated to a PJ that uses eshift. It is bound to be inflammatory.

Using a CIH 2.39:1 screen, motorised zoom and lens memories are essential for me. Obviously anyone using a 16:9 screen isn't going to find that feature useful, but that is not to say that somehow it becomes an alternative to a 'simplistic, durable model'. They are not mutually exclusive.

I think, from reading your posts, that you are more inclined to find satisfaction in the 'high end' PJ threads.
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post #14000 of 18092 Old 04-19-2018, 08:41 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Oh OK. It's just that you seemed to care about it a lot in your earlier posts about it. Content is increasing all the time though. More and more new movies are coming along in UHD disc form. Soon it will be pretty much the norm. I have well over 1000 Blu-rays though, so it will be some time before UHD overtakes that lot. But I am buying the UHD discs now as there is no downside to them, they have immersive audio, and they are the future (in so far as disc based media is).

'Slim to none' is not really accurate.




Fair enough. I am always a champion of choice. But since you personally have no use for eshift technologies, why bring up your personal view of them in a thread dedicated to a PJ that uses eshift. It is bound to be inflammatory.

Using a CIH 2.39:1 screen, motorised zoom and lens memories are essential for me. Obviously anyone using a 16:9 screen isn't going to find that feature useful, but that is not to say that somehow it becomes an alternative to a 'simplistic, durable model'. They are not mutually exclusive.

I think, from reading your posts, that you are more inclined to find satisfaction in the 'high end' PJ threads.
Any opinion can be viewed as inflammatory by those who disagree with it. I am free to share my opinion anywhere on this website as long as it not personally offending others. Epson 5040UB does not do eshift well in my opinion. However that does not mean it does not do other things well.

I never stated I cared about eshift. I merely stated Epson's version does not impress me. And at this price point, lots of bells and whistles is mutually exclusive from durability because the mfr is attempting to include so many options and having to use cheaper parts to meet a sub $3,000 price point.

I would have a higher end projector now if there was a brighter option available. However, most of the higher end Sony and JVC projectors tend to be on the dim side. And lumens are crucial to me because I only use alr screens.

Problem is so many mfrs are going with low hanging fruit such as fake 4k, 3d etc instead of focusing on crucial elements for superior image quality such as higher contrast, lens quality, and higher lumen color accurate modes.
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post #14001 of 18092 Old 04-19-2018, 08:54 AM
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When you use the term "filter" do you mean an actual glass or acetate filter gets put into the light path, or is this some sort of electronic filter. I've never been clear about that.


Thanks.


Quote:
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Cinema also uses the filter

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post #14002 of 18092 Old 04-19-2018, 09:02 AM
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Thanks for the information. In my setup, Medium lamp power produces what I perceive as the ideal level of illumination so I will just ignore the fact the Eco mode flickers--at least until something more serious goes wrong (knock wood). My unit had the latest firmware and hopefully was manufactured after Epson sorted out the power supply issues. The 5040 seems to be at the peak of the diminishing returns curve. I've seen the $25K JVC 4K laser and while it probably produces a bit better image than the 5040, it is nowhere near 10X better.




Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I had to replace my unit due to power supply failure. The original unit exhibited zero flicker in Eco mode. The replacement unit however, does sometimes flicker in Eco mode. As a result, I'd say the two things are not connected and that the flicker is much more likely a bulb issue. I've 'solved' the problem by running in Medium lamp mode and adjusting my settings a little to compensate for the (slight) extra brightness.

I have also read reports of other makes having some flicker in the lowest lamp mode.

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post #14003 of 18092 Old 04-19-2018, 09:10 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mraub View Post
Thanks for the information. In my setup, Medium lamp power produces what I perceive as the ideal level of illumination so I will just ignore the fact the Eco mode flickers--at least until something more serious goes wrong (knock wood). My unit had the latest firmware and hopefully was manufactured after Epson sorted out the power supply issues. The 5040 seems to be at the peak of the diminishing returns curve. I've seen the $25K JVC 4K laser and while it probably produces a bit better image than the 5040, it is nowhere near 10X better.
I concur. My JVC X550R showed a better picture than the Epson 5040UB when it comes to movies. However, It's image quality was around 20% better. Not a huge gap. And the JVC showed a dim image once the bulb passed 500 hours. Adding to that problem, JVC price gouges on their lamps so replacement is expensive.
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post #14004 of 18092 Old 04-19-2018, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LumensLover View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mraub View Post
Thanks for the information. In my setup, Medium lamp power produces what I perceive as the ideal level of illumination so I will just ignore the fact the Eco mode flickers--at least until something more serious goes wrong (knock wood). My unit had the latest firmware and hopefully was manufactured after Epson sorted out the power supply issues. The 5040 seems to be at the peak of the diminishing returns curve. I've seen the $25K JVC 4K laser and while it probably produces a bit better image than the 5040, it is nowhere near 10X better.
I concur. My JVC X550R showed a better picture than the Epson 5040UB when it comes to movies. However, It's image quality was around 20% better. Not a huge gap. And the JVC showed a dim image once the bulb passed 500 hours. Adding to that problem, JVC price gouges on their lamps so replacement is expensive.
Yet another couple reasons I do not like JVC and wouldn't seriously consider them. Charging several thousand for a projector, then having horrible bulb life span and very expensive bulbs is just a non starter. My issue with Sony is how horrendously stingy they are with warranties. No thanks on either.

I know it bugs you that I like Epson so much, but oh well, it's not meant to offend you, I have solid reasons. I find it a bit nonsensical that you are coming into the Epson thread as a non Epson owner and getting offended by those of us that say how much love our Epson projectors.
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post #14005 of 18092 Old 04-19-2018, 05:56 PM
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There is always the laser epson, as an option...

I think the picture quality of the 5040/6040/9300 models are solid... Beats most commercial cinemas apart from the the very high end ones... Whether 1080p or e-shift fauxK.

So we're really splitting hairs here... And most people aren't even in rooms that do these projectors justice, i.e. non-light sealed, light walls/ceiling, etc... or are projecting at sizes and distences thst don't make 4k an issue for movies... So the JVCs and higher end Sony's would be wasted on them...

It would be nice to spend an extra 10-15% and get more reliability, but that is not really an option...
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post #14006 of 18092 Old 04-19-2018, 07:17 PM
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One thing I have learned about the audio/video world (playing with this stuff for >35 years) is that equating selling price with quality is a fool's errand--at least beyond a certain threshold level. Some years ago one of the high-end audio magazines put a number of speakers behind an acoustically transparent cloth. Some of the speakers had very modest price tags; while others cost as much as a small car. Much to the author's surprise, I think, listeners had no special preference for the pricy speakers; some liked them while others preferred the bargain basement option. The magazine did not repeat this experiment since much of its ad revenue came from expensive gear manufacturers.


Though I have never seen this done, my guess is that if you put a 5040 and a top of the line Sony or JVC projecting on side-by-side on identical screens, calibrating both for their best images and matching their light outputs, some viewers would prefer each as showing the best image. And if the viewers were ordinary citizens, lacking the HT gene, they would probably shrug their shoulders and call them equal. It would be interesting to put together an experiment like this, though not many of us have a HT room big enough to accommodate two side-by-side screens.


Blind testing (meaning you judge only the outcome and are purposely ignorant of how it was produced) is the touchstone of most true sciences; it is almost completely ignored in AV science.
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post #14007 of 18092 Old 04-19-2018, 07:21 PM
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Official Epson 5040ub/6040ub owners thread

Man this Fauxk looks terrible...Click image for larger version

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I just can’t really tell the difference between true 4K and fauxk at a normal seating distance. The image is a touch softer then my vizio when I pause a scene but once video starts playing I really struggle to see much of a difference in apparent resolution. I would much prefer a 5000 lumen laser or led light source epson ub then a true 4K anything.

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Last edited by OrcusVaruna; 04-19-2018 at 07:37 PM.
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post #14008 of 18092 Old 04-19-2018, 07:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by blake18 View Post
Yet another couple reasons I do not like JVC and wouldn't seriously consider them. Charging several thousand for a projector, then having horrible bulb life span and very expensive bulbs is just a non starter. My issue with Sony is how horrendously stingy they are with warranties. No thanks on either.

I know it bugs you that I like Epson so much, but oh well, it's not meant to offend you, I have solid reasons. I find it a bit nonsensical that you are coming into the Epson thread as a non Epson owner and getting offended by those of us that say how much love our Epson projectors.
This is not a "I love Epson" thread. This is also not a "I just upgraded from a 10 year old Epson projector to a 5 year old Epson projector and it's awesome" thread. You are in the Epson 5040 owners thread. I own a Epson 5040. Last I checked, you do not own a 5040. I'm not going to try to tell someone where they can post as others do here. But I'm not seeing the logic as to why you're posting in this owners thread.
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Last edited by LumensLover; 04-19-2018 at 10:05 PM.
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post #14009 of 18092 Old 04-19-2018, 08:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mraub View Post
One thing I have learned about the audio/video world (playing with this stuff for >35 years) is that equating selling price with quality is a fool's errand--at least beyond a certain threshold level. Some years ago one of the high-end audio magazines put a number of speakers behind an acoustically transparent cloth. Some of the speakers had very modest price tags; while others cost as much as a small car. Much to the author's surprise, I think, listeners had no special preference for the pricy speakers; some liked them while others preferred the bargain basement option. The magazine did not repeat this experiment since much of its ad revenue came from expensive gear manufacturers.


Though I have never seen this done, my guess is that if you put a 5040 and a top of the line Sony or JVC projecting on side-by-side on identical screens, calibrating both for their best images and matching their light outputs, some viewers would prefer each as showing the best image. And if the viewers were ordinary citizens, lacking the HT gene, they would probably shrug their shoulders and call them equal. It would be interesting to put together an experiment like this, though not many of us have a HT room big enough to accommodate two side-by-side screens.


Blind testing (meaning you judge only the outcome and are purposely ignorant of how it was produced) is the touchstone of most true sciences; it is almost completely ignored in AV science.
I've seen the JVC 550 and the Epson 5040 side by side. Actually watched them for over an hour before I made a purchase. JVC had discernibly better black levels during dark scenes with movies. However, the Epson had more perceived sharpness and was much brighter.
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Last edited by LumensLover; 04-19-2018 at 10:24 PM.
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post #14010 of 18092 Old 04-19-2018, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by LumensLover View Post
I had the 6040 before this. It had noisy images as well with 4K eshift activated. I just think this is a poor implementation of 4K eshift by Epson. I have a sharp eye and I can detect any noise added to an image. Maybe some others cannot but it does not fool my eye.
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Originally Posted by OrcusVaruna View Post
The 4K enhancement of 1080p sources I find is pretty much garbage but true 4K material with image enhancement turned off is sharp with virtually no noise. As you up the range and strength of the image enhancement settings is when I find it gets noisy. And me like yourself is allergic to image noise lol
If you feed the Epson a 4K signal, even an up-scaled one, the difference is night & day. That's why I have my HTPC and Oppo output everything at 2160p to the PJ. Compare a Windows explorer desktop picture at 1080p with 4K enhancement ON against the same picture at 4K resolution with Image Enhancement at 1 or 2. There's almost no noise whatsoever and sharpness is outstanding.
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Last edited by dimi123; 04-19-2018 at 10:55 PM.
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