Official Epson 5040ub/6040ub owners thread - Page 539 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #16141 of 18054 Old 12-02-2018, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Lithium View Post
I've tried the 820 out to SDR/2020 with Digital Cinema and gamma somewhere around default. It's a decent picture, however, it's not 'right' (for reasons explained many many posts back). But, I do think it has potential with a proper SDR/2020 gamma calibration. But overall, right now HarperVision has way more pop and the difference is noticeably better. So, with the 820 turn the Optimizer On and set the display to Middle Luminance so that all content is mapped to 1000nits which is fairly close to HarperVision's clipping point (~1100 I believe).
Thanks for this. Reason I ask is that I'm getting my projector calibrated in 2 weeks, and was curious if it was worth getting the 820 before he comes so he has the best tools available to give me the best picture, and relegate my 900 to the living room. From what you're saying though, sounds like Harpervision settings are better anyway.
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post #16142 of 18054 Old 12-02-2018, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by xpl0sive View Post
Thanks for this. Reason I ask is that I'm getting my projector calibrated in 2 weeks, and was curious if it was worth getting the 820 before he comes so he has the best tools available to give me the best picture, and relegate my 900 to the living room. From what you're saying though, sounds like Harpervision settings are better anyway.
Looking at the picture using HDR/2020 with Digital Cinema basically at default settings, SDR/2020 also with Idgital Cinema, and Harpervision, I am hard pressed to see much of a difference now in the 820 output however Harpervision produced a slightly darker image BUT I don't have any measurement instruments and can only view and compare specific scenes. I need more UHD discs to better compare. I do like the HDR adjustments the 820 provides which likely speaks to the tweaker in me. Regardless, I am quite pleased with the 820's picture. I am a neophyte at all this so always learning from this forum and other sources so obviously YMMV and I am using a 4040 whereas the 5040 may produce different results.

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post #16143 of 18054 Old 12-02-2018, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by xpl0sive View Post
Thanks for this. Reason I ask is that I'm getting my projector calibrated in 2 weeks, and was curious if it was worth getting the 820 before he comes so he has the best tools available to give me the best picture, and relegate my 900 to the living room. From what you're saying though, sounds like Harpervision settings are better anyway.
The general consensus, which includes HT professionals, is that for best results, when paired with a projector, the 820 should be used to tone map and output to SDR/2020. The projector should be calibrated to Gamma 2.4... it's this part that is not trivial on the 5040. It requires a fine tune of the gamma curve plus edits to the CMS. If it were me, I would ask the calibrator to get you an SDR/2020 @ 2.4, because implementing HarperVision is trivial.

A deeper explanation: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/149-b...l#post56675542
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post #16144 of 18054 Old 12-02-2018, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Lithium View Post
The general consensus, which includes HT professionals, is that for best results, when paired with a projector, the 820 should be used to tone map and output to SDR/2020. The projector should be calibrated to Gamma 2.4... it's this part that is not trivial on the 5040. It requires a fine tune of the gamma curve plus edits to the CMS. If it were me, I would ask the calibrator to get you an SDR/2020 @ 2.4, because implementing HarperVision is trivial.

A deeper explanation: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/149-b...l#post56675542
Thanks for this, although I'm a bit more confused now lol.

I thought the benefit of the 820 was it's ability to play HDR as per usual, but with the optimizer turned on.

So what would produce the best picture for 4K UHD discs:

a) calibrating in HDR/2020, Digital Cinema colour space, 'auto' dynamic range and HDR optimizer set to 'ON' on the 820
b) Doing a CMS calibration for Harpervision (and tweaking the rest slightly to suit my room)
c) calibrating in SDR/2020 on the 820, Digital Cinema colour space, 'auto' dynamic range and HDR optimizer set to 'ON'.
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post #16145 of 18054 Old 12-02-2018, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by xpl0sive View Post
Thanks for this, although I'm a bit more confused now lol.

I thought the benefit of the 820 was it's ability to play HDR as per usual, but with the optimizer turned on.

So what would produce the best picture for 4K UHD discs:

a) calibrating in HDR/2020, Digital Cinema colour space, 'auto' dynamic range and HDR optimizer set to 'ON' on the 820
b) Doing a CMS calibration for Harpervision (and tweaking the rest slightly to suit my room)
c) calibrating in SDR/2020 on the 820, Digital Cinema colour space, 'auto' dynamic range and HDR optimizer set to 'ON'.
HDR is just a monkier for content that is mastered with a greater range of brightness than an SDR image. However, almost every consumer projector on the market can't do anywhere near HDR's standard range of brightness. Therefore, projectors heavily rely on tone mapping which essentially takes HDR and converts it to SDR (and even more so when running wide color gamut with the digital cinema color filter). Manufacturers just call these projector HDR capable because they contain a tone mapper.

So a review of your 3 options are:

A) The Panny 820 first tone maps to HDR (500, 1000, 1500 nits) based on your player's settings. The projector then maps that HDR to SDR with Epson's internal algorithms. Some people like this, especially if they give up the full wide gamut color filter and run bright cinema for some extra lumes.

B) The Panny 820 first tone maps HDR to HDR at 1000nits based on the disks static meta data. HarperVison then tone maps that HDR to SDR mostly via a custom gamma and tricks the projector into using it's standard SDR algorithm to display the picture. This is a true hybrid approch and the one I personally use most of the time.

C) The Panny 820 tone maps HDR to SDR2020 using static meta data on the disk plus your HDR brightness slider setting (which according to Kris' comment in the other post I linked) can be set to your display's actual light output and be tweaked to taste. The projector doesn't have to tone map as it receives a native SDR signal. This is the only method that tone maps just once. And Panny's tone mapping algorithm is as good as industry tone mapping hardware solutions that cost thousands of dollars. This is why I believe if calibrated correctly this method could display the most accurate projected picture.

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Last edited by Lithium; 12-02-2018 at 11:00 PM.
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post #16146 of 18054 Old 12-02-2018, 11:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithium View Post
HDR is just a monkier for content that is mastered with a greater range of brightness than an SDR image. However, almost every consumer projector on the market can't do anywhere near HDR's standard range of brightness. Therefore, projectors heavily rely on tone mapping which essentially takes HDR and converts it to SDR (and even more so when running wide color gamut with the digital cinema color filter). Manufacturers just call these projector HDR capable because they contain a tone mapper.

So a review of your 3 options are:

A) The Panny 820 first tone maps to HDR (500, 1000, 1500 nits) based on your player's settings. The projector then maps that HDR to SDR with Epson's internal algorithms. Some people like this, especially if they give up the full wide gamut color filter and run bright cinema for some extra lumes.

B) The Panny 820 first tone maps HDR to HDR at 1000nits based on the disks static meta data. HarperVison then tone maps that HDR to SDR mostly via a custom gamma and tricks the projector into using it's standard SDR algorithm to display the picture. This is a true hybrid approch and the one I personally use most of the time.

C) The Panny 820 tone maps HDR to SDR2020 using static meta data on the disk plus your HDR brightness slider setting (which according to Kris' comment in the other post I linked) can be set to your display's actual light output and be tweaked to taste. The projector doesn't have to tone map as it receives a native SDR signal. This is the only method that tone maps just once. And Panny's tone mapping algorithm is as good as industry tone mapping hardware solutions that cost thousands of dollars. This is why I believe if calibrated correctly this method could display the most accurate projected picture.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Thanks heaps for explaining all that, makes a lot of sense now. I think I'm going to bite the bullet and get the 820 before getting my projector calibrated. I'll move the 900 to the living room
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post #16147 of 18054 Old 12-03-2018, 02:30 AM
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Image flicker on scene change

Hi all,

Long time lurker and long time happy 6040UB owner. I have close to 2k hours on the lamp, so my suspicion is a lamp issue, but can I just ask to confirm.

Lately when watching movies, TV Shows, either via JRiver or Nvidia Shield SPMC App, or PC, the image seems to flicker as the scene changes. Only for a second or so, it goes dark (not completely black) and it restores to normal then and works away.

So would this be a tired Lamp? Or am I looking at another issue?

Thanks.

N
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post #16148 of 18054 Old 12-03-2018, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xpl0sive View Post
Thanks heaps for explaining all that, makes a lot of sense now. I think I'm going to bite the bullet and get the 820 before getting my projector calibrated. I'll move the 900 to the living room
Color me interested in option C, as I have the 820 as well. I have been very tempted to throw Harpervision on my Epson with the 820 but not having any measurement tools...it'd be a hit or miss thing for me. Following your calibration with much interest.

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post #16149 of 18054 Old 12-03-2018, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithium View Post
HDR is just a monkier for content that is mastered with a greater range of brightness than an SDR image. However, almost every consumer projector on the market can't do anywhere near HDR's standard range of brightness. Therefore, projectors heavily rely on tone mapping which essentially takes HDR and converts it to SDR (and even more so when running wide color gamut with the digital cinema color filter). Manufacturers just call these projector HDR capable because they contain a tone mapper.

So a review of your 3 options are:

A) The Panny 820 first tone maps to HDR (500, 1000, 1500 nits) based on your player's settings. The projector then maps that HDR to SDR with Epson's internal algorithms. Some people like this, especially if they give up the full wide gamut color filter and run bright cinema for some extra lumes.

B) The Panny 820 first tone maps HDR to HDR at 1000nits based on the disks static meta data. HarperVison then tone maps that HDR to SDR mostly via a custom gamma and tricks the projector into using it's standard SDR algorithm to display the picture. This is a true hybrid approch and the one I personally use most of the time.

C) The Panny 820 tone maps HDR to SDR2020 using static meta data on the disk plus your HDR brightness slider setting (which according to Kris' comment in the other post I linked) can be set to your display's actual light output and be tweaked to taste. The projector doesn't have to tone map as it receives a native SDR signal. This is the only method that tone maps just once. And Panny's tone mapping algorithm is as good as industry tone mapping hardware solutions that cost thousands of dollars. This is why I believe if calibrated correctly this method could display the most accurate projected picture.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Excellent explanation. Thank you. For options A) or C), if I set the projector's dynamic range setting to HDR1, I get a slightly brighter picture than if I leave it at Auto. Not sure why this is. Regardless, if we tweak the picture using only the player's HDR brightness setting, then should we leave the projector's settings at default, other than gamma and CMS adjustments needed to achieves a gamma of 2.4? Lastly, are there any manual adjustments that can be made to approach 2.4 or is this completely in the realm of the calibrator?
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post #16150 of 18054 Old 12-03-2018, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Lithium View Post
HDR is just a monkier for content that is mastered with a greater range of brightness than an SDR image. However, almost every consumer projector on the market can't do anywhere near HDR's standard range of brightness. Therefore, projectors heavily rely on tone mapping which essentially takes HDR and converts it to SDR (and even more so when running wide color gamut with the digital cinema color filter). Manufacturers just call these projector HDR capable because they contain a tone mapper.

So a review of your 3 options are:

A) The Panny 820 first tone maps to HDR (500, 1000, 1500 nits) based on your player's settings. The projector then maps that HDR to SDR with Epson's internal algorithms. Some people like this, especially if they give up the full wide gamut color filter and run bright cinema for some extra lumes.

B) The Panny 820 first tone maps HDR to HDR at 1000nits based on the disks static meta data. HarperVison then tone maps that HDR to SDR mostly via a custom gamma and tricks the projector into using it's standard SDR algorithm to display the picture. This is a true hybrid approch and the one I personally use most of the time.

C) The Panny 820 tone maps HDR to SDR2020 using static meta data on the disk plus your HDR brightness slider setting (which according to Kris' comment in the other post I linked) can be set to your display's actual light output and be tweaked to taste. The projector doesn't have to tone map as it receives a native SDR signal. This is the only method that tone maps just once. And Panny's tone mapping algorithm is as good as industry tone mapping hardware solutions that cost thousands of dollars. This is why I believe if calibrated correctly this method could display the most accurate projected picture.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
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Originally Posted by avtoronto View Post
Excellent explanation. Thank you. For options A) or C), if I set the projector's dynamic range setting to HDR1, I get a slightly brighter picture than if I leave it at Auto. Not sure why this is. Regardless, if we tweak the picture using only the player's HDR brightness setting, then should we leave the projector's settings at default, other than gamma and CMS adjustments needed to achieves a gamma of 2.4? Lastly, are there any manual adjustments that can be made to approach 2.4 or is this completely in the realm of the calibrator?
From memory, HDR1 is the setting used by Auto (Bright), hence why you notice a brighter picture. Auto defaults to HDR2.
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post #16151 of 18054 Old 12-03-2018, 03:01 PM
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One thing I forgot to ask, for those with an 820, is the HDR brightness slider a 'set and forget' feature or does it need to be adjusted for each disc? From memory, on the 900 it would default back to 0 everytime you put a new disc in, which made the feature useless if you wanted a 'set and forget' setting, especially if pairing up with a Logitech Harmony Elite.
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post #16152 of 18054 Old 12-03-2018, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by xpl0sive View Post
One thing I forgot to ask, for those with an 820, is the HDR brightness slider a 'set and forget' feature or does it need to be adjusted for each disc? From memory, on the 900 it would default back to 0 everytime you put a new disc in, which made the feature useless if you wanted a 'set and forget' setting, especially if pairing up with a Logitech Harmony Elite.
It's a setting that is saved between disks and can also be saved to a profile. I kind of misspoke when I called it brightness, it's actually called dynamic range adjustment. It can probably be a set it and forget setting for most people. I think I have mine set up a notch or two for HDR running HarperVision, if I go a third I lose some black level.

Kris also detailed how to set it for SDR2020 projector owners here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/149-b...l#post56691050
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post #16153 of 18054 Old 12-03-2018, 05:07 PM
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It's a setting that is saved between disks and can also be saved to a profile. I kind of misspoke when I called it brightness, it's actually called dynamic range adjustment. It can probably be a set it and forget setting for most people. I think I have mine set up a notch or two for HDR running HarperVision, if I go a third I lose some black level.

Kris also detailed how to set it for SDR2020 projector owners here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/149-b...l#post56691050
Thanks for that. Seems like it's probably the best player for Epson owners. Do you know how it compares to the Sony X800? I have a friend telling me it's the best 4K player on the market.
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post #16154 of 18054 Old 12-03-2018, 06:28 PM
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No because the benefit of this player is it’s dynamic HDR to SDR tone mapping and my settings are based on the projector receiving an HDR signal, not an SDR one. Now the question would be if the tone mapping of the 820 results in a better image than my HarperVision settings do. I can’t answer that because I don’t have a 5040 anymore. Maybe someone else that has one with an 820 can test it?

The HDR Optimizer is dynamic and bases it’s conversion on each title’s reported nits levels. My HarperVision is static and based on about a 1200 nit mastered curve.

What I can tell you is that the HarperVision settings I have for the BenQ LK970 seem to work better overall than when I tried the 820’s tone mapping, but to be honest I haven’t done extensive testing in that mode yet because I had to ship it out. I’m hoping to do so when the next one arrives.


The tone mapping is great Dave BUT like you said for your LK790 I my custom tone map better on the 5040. I do however love and use the 820 to scale the luminance values on 4000 nit discs and the overall peak if less then 1000 nits on 1000nit discs (like blade runner 2049). It makes 4000 nit discs look wonderful without requiring secondary settings and brightens up lower peak luminance 1000 nit titles nicely.


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post #16155 of 18054 Old 12-03-2018, 06:29 PM
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Official Epson 5040ub/6040ub owners thread

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Originally Posted by xpl0sive View Post
Wouldn't it be better to leave the player in HDR mode and use the optimizer? Or does it produce a better picture when converting to SDR?


I much prefer using hdr optimizer to the Sdr conversion. There is nothing wrong with the SDR conversion but calibrating out to 2020 with a gamma of 2.4 on the 5040 is a bloody nightmare. I have attempted it a few times and came away very frustrated. It’s the same issue I had with HDR tone mapping except even a bit worse. The CMS and gamma are so closely linked on the 5040 that it makes it nearly impossible to dial in the CG to near 2020 while maintaining an accurate 2.4 gamma. The projector wants to track closer to 2.6 with the WCG dialed in. When you try to correct the gamma red and to a lesser extent yellow and green quickly get very inaccurate. So I’ve decided it’s not worth the trouble since my HDR settings tone map wonderfully as is without the color issues. In other words (and to be frank) it’s not worth my frustration and 10-20 hrs of my life for a very minor picture quality gain that I’m not even sure will be there after I did get it locked in.


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post #16156 of 18054 Old 12-03-2018, 07:11 PM
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I much prefer using hdr optimizer to the Sdr conversion. There is nothing wrong with the SDR conversion but calibrating out to 2020 with a gamma of 2.4 on the 5040 is a bloody nightmare. I have attempted it a few times and came away very frustrated. It’s the same issue I had with HDR tone mapping except even a bit worse. The CMS and gamma are so closely linked on the 5040 that it makes it nearly impossible to dial in the CG to near 2020 while maintaining an accurate 2.4 gamma. The projector wants to track closer to 2.6 with the WCG dialed in. When you try to correct the gamma red and to a lesser extent yellow and green quickly get very inaccurate. So I’ve decided it’s not worth the trouble since my HDR settings tone map wonderfully as is without the color issues. In other words (and to be frank) it’s not worth my frustration and 10-20 hrs of my life for a very minor picture quality gain that I’m not even sure will be there after I did get it locked in.


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One more thing occurred to me today while out walking the dog...for the few that care or are curious about the forthcoming 4K discs that will have HDR 10+, my understanding is the 820's output would have to be HDR2020. Also, if one chooses option A, even if tone mapping occurs twice, the acid test is the resulting picture and I am hard pressed to see much of a difference between options A and C. I am not trying to be provocative, just passing along my observations.

Thanks Lithium, xpl0sive, Orcus, and Dave for your insights to help guide us through this tricky HDR world.
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post #16157 of 18054 Old 12-03-2018, 08:38 PM
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Excellent explanation. Thank you. For options A) or C), if I set the projector's dynamic range setting to HDR1, I get a slightly brighter picture than if I leave it at Auto. Not sure why this is. Regardless, if we tweak the picture using only the player's HDR brightness setting, then should we leave the projector's settings at default, other than gamma and CMS adjustments needed to achieves a gamma of 2.4? Lastly, are there any manual adjustments that can be made to approach 2.4 or is this completely in the realm of the calibrator?
Do you have the latest firmware on the Epson, there should be a auto (bright) option in the hdr settings.
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post #16158 of 18054 Old 12-03-2018, 10:36 PM
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I'm beginning to wonder if it's worth switching to this player, as I just realised if I put it in SDR/2020 mode, I would need to switch back for blu rays. This would be a pain in the rear, especially since I have everything configured through my Logitech Harmony Elite. Need a simple solution to program it into the remote, to make things easier for my partner when she wants to watch 4K discs or blu rays.. How hard would it be to add a macro to the Harmony to switch between SDR/2020 and Auto? Does this player have the ability to store presets?
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Do you have the latest firmware on the Epson, there should be a auto (bright) option in the hdr settings.
Yes, latest firmware. xpl0sive suggested Auto uses HDR2 so this is why HDR1 is brighter.

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Originally Posted by xpl0sive View Post
I'm beginning to wonder if it's worth switching to this player, as I just realised if I put it in SDR/2020 mode, I would need to switch back for blu rays. This would be a pain in the rear, especially since I have everything configured through my Logitech Harmony Elite. Need a simple solution to program it into the remote, to make things easier for my partner when she wants to watch 4K discs or blu rays.. How hard would it be to add a macro to the Harmony to switch between SDR/2020 and Auto? Does this player have the ability to store presets?
Yes, custom settings can be saved in Set 1 and Set 2, in addition to Standard setting.

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post #16161 of 18054 Old 12-04-2018, 06:56 AM
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noobie on calibration question

Hello,

I've searched the forum and see tons of opinions on calibrating the Epson 5040UB. I'm using a Sony UDPx800 for my 4K player and am not happy with the results when watching a 4K movie....a bit dark and grainy. Can someone just send me a link to a page that has recommended settings fore the 5040UB that can be acceptable......I tried using the Dynamic settting on the projector which looks pretty good at times, then others, scenes can be too washed out....I appreciate any help with this.
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post #16162 of 18054 Old 12-04-2018, 07:35 AM
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Most use "Harpervision" or a derivation of it: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-di...l#post52228017

Elunevision 4K 112" Audioweave motorized screen, Epson Pro Cinema 4040 projector, Emotiva XPA-5 amplifier, Denon AVR X4400h receiver, XTZ M6 LCR, XTZ S5 surround, XTZ 1X12 and Definitive Technology Powerfield subwoofers, RSL C34E Atmos speakers, Apple TV 4K, Panasonic DP-UB820
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post #16163 of 18054 Old 12-04-2018, 10:12 AM
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Look 2-3 pages back for my “harpervision” settings
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post #16164 of 18054 Old 12-04-2018, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by nielvm View Post
Look 2-3 pages back for my “harpervision” settings
Thanks for replying....I set up my 5040 using Harpervsion with digital cinema....It was a major improvement, but a bit warm for my room....I then used Harpervison settings for Bright Cinema and liked that a lot. However, some of the whites and light colors are a bit washed out.....How can I correct this? Would I change the gamma settings or alter the brightness, saturation etc settings? If so, any suggestions? Thanks so much!!
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post #16165 of 18054 Old 12-04-2018, 11:20 AM
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I know the harpervision settings are popular but I would advise everyone also check our Orcus's settings.. I know he uses Natural mode which doesn't engage the P3 filter.. Bit to my eye I very much prefer the Orcus's settings for HDR.. Regardless it relatively simple to save both configs to your memory.. (you will need to manually switch the dynamic range back though)

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post #16166 of 18054 Old 12-04-2018, 12:16 PM
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orcus settings?

Would you have a link where I can find these? Thx much!!!
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post #16167 of 18054 Old 12-04-2018, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by gkman1 View Post
Would you have a link where I can find these? Thx much!!!



Here is a set of PDF's with all the current settings used by most here that Orcus posted about 2 months ago



Also about two comments below that djmattyb posted an awsome PDF with all of them side by side on a single PDF.
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post #16168 of 18054 Old 12-04-2018, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avtoronto View Post
Yes, custom settings can be saved in Set 1 and Set 2, in addition to Standard setting.
That's perfect, exactly what I needed. Placed my order this morning Looking forward to setting it up.

The plan is to have the calibrator calibrate for SDR/2020 in addition to a REC709 calibration, and while he's here I will get him to do a CMS/greyscale calibration on my Harpervision settings, and will just use whatever looks best in the end.
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post #16169 of 18054 Old 12-04-2018, 09:28 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gkman1 View Post
Thanks for replying....I set up my 5040 using Harpervsion with digital cinema....It was a major improvement, but a bit warm for my room....I then used Harpervison settings for Bright Cinema and liked that a lot. However, some of the whites and light colors are a bit washed out.....How can I correct this? Would I change the gamma settings or alter the brightness, saturation etc settings? If so, any suggestions? Thanks so much!!

It’s probably washed out because it wasn’t tweaked, calibrated or designed for Bright Cinema Mode as I recall.
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post #16170 of 18054 Old 12-05-2018, 03:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xpl0sive View Post
That's perfect, exactly what I needed. Placed my order this morning Looking forward to setting it up.



The plan is to have the calibrator calibrate for SDR/2020 in addition to a REC709 calibration, and while he's here I will get him to do a CMS/greyscale calibration on my Harpervision settings, and will just use whatever looks best in the end.


It would be awesome if you could share the values from your calibration!


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