Official Epson 5040ub/6040ub owners thread - Page 562 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #16831 of 17660 Old 02-05-2019, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirt9 View Post
I'm running a 2.35 113" AT screen.I had the projector mounted at 14' from the screen and was on the upper end of the zoom,its been a year and the picture has been looking great or so I thought!
I just moved it back to 18' and am at the lower end of the zoom now.holy cow the image is ten times better!!!
It looks brighter with way more contrast and much sharper.Just thought i would share this for those that have not mounted theirs yet.

No offence but some placebo is at play here.



The further you move any projector from the screen you will lose Fl/nits because the light has further to travel.
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post #16832 of 17660 Old 02-05-2019, 04:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Dirt9 View Post
Here's something to try for HDR.COLOR MODE CINEMA,AUTO BRIGHT,BT2020 HDMI NORMAL.



BRIGHTNESS 97,CONTRAST 0,COLOR SATURATION 60,TINT 100,SHARPNESS 555

COLOR TEMP 5,SKIN TONE 3,COLOR TEMP CUSTOM 49 49 49 35 50 50



POWER CONSUMPTION HIGH,AUTO IRIS NORMAL,GAMA 0 -32 -14 -14 -14 -14 -15 +22 +32

RGB (R) 32 79 50 (G )48 93 50 (B) 47 73 50 (C) 25 87 50 (M) 43 87 50 (Y) 22 83 50



IRIS 0,SUPER WHITE OFF,



This is a combo of settings that have already been posted by others,try it out

idk but it seems like something is amiss and you’re looking for trouble with brightness at 97 and contrast at 0. Washout city!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweakophyte View Post
The gamma settings don't call out their standard (i.e. show +1, 0, -1 vs 2.2, 2.4). Does anyone know the conversion?



By the way, I played around with the original and orcus mod of the HV settings last nigh and found them very dark compared to an unmodified setting. This was when feeding them the SDR/BT.2020 signal. I did not play with turning on HDR. If I am reading correctly, you are saying your settings * require * an HDR signal and may need some tweaking with the optimizer, correct? Are you also suggesting the have the player map at 1000 nits versus the projector mode of 300nits?



From here I want to understand that if I want to use SDR/BT.2020 I should stick to a more conventional set-up with the standard gamma? Either here or on the Panny820 thread several were saying the SDR/BT.2020 was a better way to go for a projector, since a PJ has limited light output. I forget if you opined on that.



Sorry I didn't buy this last year so your thoughts would have been fresher. :-) Sorry if this is a rehash of everything you've been saying. My goal is to limit the number of settings I need in various scenarios of 4K, 1080p, Netflix, Amazon coming out of the player, and a few TV modes.



Thanks again!

Yes, again.....you MUST input a full HDR signal (NOT SDR!!!) for my settings to resemble anything decent!

I believe when you’re in HDR/BT2020 mode and turn on the HDR Optimizer on the UB820, The display type settings aren’t activated if I recall, so this way it bases its tone mapping on a 1,000 nit display.

If you want to use SDR BT2020 from the UB820 then DO NOT use my settings and gamma! Use a standard SDR mode like you would any other SDR source like regular Blu-ray and HD, but select the Cinema or Digital Cinema Modes on the 5040 so the BT2020/DCI-P3 Filter rolls into place to get BT2020 color mapping.
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post #16833 of 17660 Old 02-05-2019, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
idk but it seems like something is amiss and you’re looking for trouble with brightness at 97 and contrast at 0. Washout city!!!




Yes, again.....you MUST input a full HDR signal (NOT SDR!!!) for my settings to resemble anything decent!

I believe when you’re in HDR/BT2020 mode and turn on the HDR Optimizer on the UB820, The display type settings aren’t activated if I recall, so this way it bases its tone mapping on a 1,000 nit display.

If you want to use SDR BT2020 from the UB820 then DO NOT use my settings and gamma! Use a standard SDR mode like you would any other SDR source like regular Blu-ray and HD, but select the Cinema or Digital Cinema Modes on the 5040 so the BT2020/DCI-P3 Filter rolls into place to get BT2020 color mapping.
I know it sounds way off but with the second gamma point at -32 the brightness at 97 counters and really drives the whites without any wash out.setting the contrast at 0-10 bring the white detail back in,
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post #16834 of 17660 Old 02-05-2019, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
No offence but some placebo is at play here.



The further you move any projector from the screen you will lose Fl/nits because the light has further to travel.
That's what I originally thought also,if you zoom all the way in on your screen and re focus the image will not be as bright try it
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post #16835 of 17660 Old 02-05-2019, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Dirt9 View Post
That's what I originally thought also,if you zoom all the way in on your screen and re focus the image will not be as bright try it
Im a noob here but there is something to this weather it be the sweat spot of the lens or a more focust light beam?
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post #16836 of 17660 Old 02-05-2019, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
idk but it seems like something is amiss and you’re looking for trouble with brightness at 97 and contrast at 0. Washout city!!!




Yes, again.....you MUST input a full HDR signal (NOT SDR!!!) for my settings to resemble anything decent!

I believe when you’re in HDR/BT2020 mode and turn on the HDR Optimizer on the UB820, The display type settings aren’t activated if I recall, so this way it bases its tone mapping on a 1,000 nit display.

If you want to use SDR BT2020 from the UB820 then DO NOT use my settings and gamma! Use a standard SDR mode like you would any other SDR source like regular Blu-ray and HD, but select the Cinema or Digital Cinema Modes on the 5040 so the BT2020/DCI-P3 Filter rolls into place to get BT2020 color mapping.
I'll admit I am not on firm ground on this, but my understanding is if the player outputs an HDR/BT2020 signal, it always tone maps. If you select the 1,000 nit setting, that's what it will tone map to based on the information on the UHD disc. If you select SDR/BT2020, it ignores the nit setting completely and it does not tone map at all. This is why the advocates of the SDR/BT2020 approach state that only the display device does the tone mapping, so it is only being done once.



I am perfectly willing to be corrected on this, but based on what I've read here and on the 820 thread, this is what I've learnt.

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post #16837 of 17660 Old 02-05-2019, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
idk but it seems like something is amiss and you’re looking for trouble with brightness at 97 and contrast at 0. Washout city!!!




Yes, again.....you MUST input a full HDR signal (NOT SDR!!!) for my settings to resemble anything decent!

I believe when you’re in HDR/BT2020 mode and turn on the HDR Optimizer on the UB820, The display type settings aren’t activated if I recall, so this way it bases its tone mapping on a 1,000 nit display.

If you want to use SDR BT2020 from the UB820 then DO NOT use my settings and gamma! Use a standard SDR mode like you would any other SDR source like regular Blu-ray and HD, but select the Cinema or Digital Cinema Modes on the 5040 so the BT2020/DCI-P3 Filter rolls into place to get BT2020 color mapping.
I have no experience calibrating and those settings are not,but this really does work lol
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post #16838 of 17660 Old 02-05-2019, 05:18 PM
 
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Official Epson 5040ub/6040ub owners thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirt9 View Post
I know it sounds way off but with the second gamma point at -32 the brightness at 97 counters and really drives the whites without any wash out.setting the contrast at 0-10 bring the white detail back in,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirt9 View Post
I have no experience calibrating and those settings are not,but this really does work lol
Ohhhhhhh Kaaaaayyyyyy then. If you think that’s giving an optimal picture then. I can’t see how something isn’t getting totally messed up in that scenario by flipping gamma and brightness around. That would really affect greyscale too by pushing up the cuts with a brightness that high.

I equate this to pushing the gas to 70 mph and hitting the brake at the same to to get you back down to 55 mph, when all you had to do was hit the gas enough to go 55 mph in the first place !



Quote:
Originally Posted by avtoronto View Post
I'll admit I am not on firm ground on this, but my understanding is if the player outputs an HDR/BT2020 signal, it always tone maps. If you select the 1,000 nit setting, that's what it will tone map to based on the information on the UHD disc. If you select SDR/BT2020, it ignores the nit setting completely and it does not tone map at all. This is why the advocates of the SDR/BT2020 approach state that only the display device does the tone mapping, so it is only being done once.

I am perfectly willing to be corrected on this, but based on what I've read here and on the 820 thread, this is what I've learnt.

You could be right and I am confusing them myself. I haven’t tried the SDR/BT2020 setting for a while now. I always use HDR/BT2020 for HarperVision.

One thing I do know though is that it is doing tone mapping from HDR to SDR when you set it to SDR/BT2020. That’s kind of the whole point of it really. Like I do with HarperVision.

Last edited by Dave Harper; 02-05-2019 at 05:28 PM.
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post #16839 of 17660 Old 02-05-2019, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
One thing I do know though is that it is doing tone mapping from HDR to SDR when you set it to SDR/BT2020. That’s kind of the whole point of it really. Like I do with HarperVision.

Yes, you must be correct on this. I didn't think it through.

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post #16840 of 17660 Old 02-05-2019, 05:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by avtoronto View Post
Yes, you must be correct on this. I didn't think it through.

Here is a good note from the Lumagen Radiance Pro manual that explains it pretty well:

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post #16841 of 17660 Old 02-05-2019, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Dirt9 View Post
Here's something to try for HDR.COLOR MODE CINEMA,AUTO BRIGHT,BT2020 HDMI NORMAL.

BRIGHTNESS 97,CONTRAST 0,COLOR SATURATION 60,TINT 100,SHARPNESS 555
COLOR TEMP 5,SKIN TONE 3,COLOR TEMP CUSTOM 49 49 49 35 50 50

POWER CONSUMPTION HIGH,AUTO IRIS NORMAL,GAMA 0 -32 -14 -14 -14 -14 -15 +22 +32
RGB (R) 32 79 50 (G )48 93 50 (B) 47 73 50 (C) 25 87 50 (M) 43 87 50 (Y) 22 83 50

IRIS 0,SUPER WHITE OFF,

This is a combo of settings that have already been posted by others,try it out
Just for fun,someone should try these and tell me im crazy!
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post #16842 of 17660 Old 02-05-2019, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by avtoronto View Post
If you select SDR/BT2020, it ignores the nit setting completely and it does not tone map at all. This is why the advocates of the SDR/BT2020 approach state that only the display device does the tone mapping, so it is only being done once.
I don't have a UB820, but my understanding is the opposite. If you select SDR/BT2020, the player does all the tone mapping, and the display doesn't do any, it just applies gamma 2.2 or 2.4 to the video stream just like SDR, other than using BT2020 colour space instead of Rec709.
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post #16843 of 17660 Old 02-06-2019, 01:35 AM
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Can someone who have tried firmware 1.13 tell me what that update was about? I can't see it on the swedish page though.

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post #16844 of 17660 Old 02-06-2019, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by JumpDontThink View Post
I've read through this thread many times. Used many of the posted user settings. Experimented for 2 years with this PJ to get HDR looking good and never been truly content. But I think I've stumbled across something which looks good.

The main points

UB820
Colour output: SDR/BT2020
HDR Type: Basic Luminance LCD & Projector
HDR Optimiser: On
Dynamic range conversion: -6

Epson
Digital Cinema Mode
High Lamp
Auto iris
Super white on
Gamma -2

Then adjust brightness and contrast settings against some patterns for your environment.

Then I just simply copied my colour settings from my SDR calibration.
This is helpful. While I don't mind experimenting with all of the shared settings (and permutations thereof) I want a very basic setting to refer to. I'm still looking for a 4K calibration disk so I can do the basics. From there I'll be able to really tweak the settings.

Separately, I've updated my 820 and I think the HDR settings (that you get when you hit the HDR button) has changed.

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Working on making things blacker...
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post #16845 of 17660 Old 02-06-2019, 10:04 AM
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Finally got around to adding some black to my HT.

It's given my 5040ub new life! I was doing it a serious disservice until now.

https://imgur.com/gallery/N9WE70k
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5040UB initial Setup

Hi All,


I just picked up a 5040, and I need some assistance in getting the settings correct. I have attached pictures below showing my plasma and projector on at the same time. As you can see, the projector is not performing near as well, so I need to get it right.


also, the image on the projector is not near as crisp as I anticipated compared to the plasma.


I prefer dynamic, high lamp, since I mostly watch sports and TV shows, with occasional movies. I have a 4K HMDI cord, projector is 15 feet back from the white screen with 1.1gain.


If anyone can help me, it would be greatly appreciated.





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post #16847 of 17660 Old 02-06-2019, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by rinse82 View Post
Finally got around to adding some black to my HT.

It's given my 5040ub new life! I was doing it a serious disservice until now.

https://imgur.com/gallery/N9WE70k

Looks great! Darkening the room is probably the best bang-for-your-buck upgrade you can make for PQ.



It was several months after we moved into our new house that we were ready to setup the theater room, and I was working weekend breakfast/lunch shifts in a kitchen, and my awesome wife surprised me by painting 3 walls gray and the front wall and ceiling near-black one weekend. Love that girl!
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post #16848 of 17660 Old 02-06-2019, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
No offence but some placebo is at play here.



The further you move any projector from the screen you will lose Fl/nits because the light has further to travel.
With light traveling at 186,000 miles per second and he moved it only 4' back:
1 mile is 5,280 feet
5,280 feet divided by 4 feet is 1,320 feet




If you take that 1,320 feet and calculate that a Starbucks Venti Latte now costs $5.35 (up 35 cents from just a few years ago and add the amount of feet you need to walk and stand in line at Starbucks M-F, that's $1.75 each week and that is an additional $91 a year.


I just wanted to shed some light on this matter
FYI: E=MC2

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post #16849 of 17660 Old 02-06-2019, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweakophyte View Post
This is helpful. While I don't mind experimenting with all of the shared settings (and permutations thereof) I want a very basic setting to refer to. I'm still looking for a 4K calibration disk so I can do the basics. From there I'll be able to really tweak the settings.

Separately, I've updated my 820 and I think the HDR settings (that you get when you hit the HDR button) has changed.
Spears & Munsil is expected to release a UHD for HDR calibration next month, per an item coming out of this year's CES.
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post #16850 of 17660 Old 02-06-2019, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sddp View Post
With light traveling at 186,000 miles per second and he moved it only 4' back:
1 mile is 5,280 feet
5,280 feet divided by 4 feet is 1,320 feet




If you take that 1,320 feet and calculate that a Starbucks Venti Latte now costs $5.35 (up 35 cents from just a few years ago and add the amount of feet you need to walk and stand in line at Starbucks M-F, that's $1.75 each week and that is an additional $91 a year.


I just wanted to shed some light on this matter
FYI: E=MC2

Well the guys over at Projector central must have it all wrong then as if you use their calculator you get the following results:


113" 2.35 screen - 14' from the screen = 52fL


113" 2.35 screen - 18' from the screen = 45fL


7fL is 7fL under whichever light you look at it under.
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post #16851 of 17660 Old 02-06-2019, 12:55 PM
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Pretty sure the OP is confusing light propagation time with the inverse square law of light propagation.

Light travel time is totally irrelevant here. The inverse square law would be relevant, except that the zoom lens negates the inverse square law and is what causes the drop in light intensity.

That's why it is always better to have the PJ as close to the screen with as wide of a zoom angle as possible.

This is about optics, not light propagation!



Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
Well the guys over at Projector central must have it all wrong then as if you use their calculator you get the following results:


113" 2.35 screen - 14' from the screen = 52fL


113" 2.35 screen - 18' from the screen = 45fL


7fL is 7fL under whichever light you look at it under.
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post #16852 of 17660 Old 02-06-2019, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
Well the guys over at Projector central must have it all wrong then as if you use their calculator you get the following results:


113" 2.35 screen - 14' from the screen = 52fL


113" 2.35 screen - 18' from the screen = 45fL


7fL is 7fL under whichever light you look at it under.
Take a flash light like a original mag light that you can adjust the light beam and shine it at a wall.Adjust the beam as small as possible,keeping the flashlight in the same place now make the spot on the wall as large as possible,the perceived brightness is less.I would think the same principle would apply for a projectors light beam.

Last edited by Dirt9; 02-06-2019 at 02:12 PM.
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post #16853 of 17660 Old 02-06-2019, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Dirt9 View Post
Take a flash light like a original mag light that you can adjust the light beam and shine it at a wall.Adjust the beam as small as possible,now make the spot on the wall as large as possible,the perceived brightness is less even though the amount of light hitting the wall would measure the same.I would think the same principle would apply for a projectors light beam.
Now take a riffle scope or a camera with zoom and zoom all the way in and take note of the image quality,while doing so you will notice the image quality is less the more you zoom because of the imperfections in the glass lens are magnified.I would think the same would apply to a projector lens while the 7fl of loss goes unnoticed.

Last edited by Dirt9; 02-06-2019 at 01:34 PM.
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post #16854 of 17660 Old 02-06-2019, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirt9 View Post
Now take a riffle scope or a camera with zoom and zoom all the way in and take note of the image quality,while doing so you will notice the image quality is less the more you zoom because of the imperfections in the glass lens are magnified.I would think the same would apply to a projector lens while the 7fl of loss goes unnoticed.
Gang. Light intensity is inversely proportional to the square of the distance to the screen. But, the zoom lens completely negates this because you are adjusting the zoom to compensate for the distance/size of image.

Light intensity loss is due to the optics of the zoom lens, not light speed or propagation.
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post #16855 of 17660 Old 02-06-2019, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Dirt9 View Post
Take a flash light like a original mag light that you can adjust the light beam and shine it at a wall.Adjust the beam as small as possible,keeping the flashlight in the same place now make the spot on the wall as large as possible,the perceived brightness is less.I would think the same principle would apply for a projectors light beam.
This is an example of the inverse square law of light intensity. But, it assumes that the light is not altered by a variable focal length lens.

If the projector has a fixed focal length lens, then moving the projector would invoke the inverse square law (like your flashlight example). A zoom lens negates it.
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post #16856 of 17660 Old 02-06-2019, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pete ramberg View Post
This is an example of the inverse square law of light intensity. But, it assumes that the light is not altered by a variable focal length lens.

If the projector has a fixed focal length lens, then moving the projector would invoke the inverse square law (like your flashlight example). A zoom lens negates it.

Thanks Peter for all the info, I know I got it wrong about the speed of light but I am right in saying that moving the projector further from the screen will reduce the brightness of the image?
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post #16857 of 17660 Old 02-06-2019, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
Thanks Peter for all the info, I know I got it wrong about the speed of light but I am right in saying that moving the projector further from the screen will reduce the brightness of the image?
I agree that moving the projector back has less light output,what I was originally trying to say for me in my particular scenario is using the sweet spot of the lens has made the image have more contrast and a crisper picture while the 7fl loss goes unnoticed
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post #16858 of 17660 Old 02-06-2019, 05:00 PM
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Exactly. If you move the PJ back twice as far, then the light intensity is reduced by a factor of 4 (2 squared). But, a zoom lens would of course be used to re-size the image and make it the same size as before the move.

In any case, the more the zoom feature is used to re-size the image, the more light is lost.

Rule of thumb: place the PJ as close as you can to the screen and use as wide of a zoom as possible.
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Originally Posted by AdamAttewell View Post
Thanks Peter for all the info, I know I got it wrong about the speed of light but I am right in saying that moving the projector further from the screen will reduce the brightness of the image?
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post #16859 of 17660 Old 02-06-2019, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Here is a good note from the Lumagen Radiance Pro manual that explains it pretty well:



I love that explanation, I have been trying to find an eloquent way to explain this concept of an SDR container for an HDR signal. Thank you


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post #16860 of 17660 Old 02-07-2019, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Yes they’re for a full HDR signal being sent into the display. The reason you set the display to SDR in this case is to be able to manually tone map the signal to be brighter and more conducive to a lower nit display such as your typical Home Theater projector. This is pretty much what players like the Panasonic 820 (and Lumagen and MadVR) are now doing in the source device. It’s just a matter of where it’s done really.

For my BenQ LK970 I prefer it done at the projector, mainly because I have the control over what kind of look I want, and then the 820’s Optimizer maps it to the 1,000 or so nits I calibrated and “HarperVisioned” it to.

This Note from the Lumagen Radiance Pro manual sums it up nicely:





I have found that sending full HDR with the HDR Optimizer engaged on the UB820 into a BenQ LK970 with HarperVision mods to be the best solution and image by far over using SDR/BT2020 from the 820 into the LK970 in SDR mode with a 2.4 gamma.

As I said, I encourage all to try both though as I haven’t done this experiment on a 5040 to see which is better with this model.

To answer your other question, I thought you could get SDR/BT2020 with a 2.4 gamma by just selecting Digital Cinema mode which engages the P3 color filter, then you manually go into SDR mode and select 2.4 as the gamma? I swear that’s all I had to do when I had a 5040 here last time, but it’s been quite a while and my memory could be off.
I just setup Harpervision thanks to the pointer to using Oledurt CMS settings and all I have to say is what a revelation. I've only been in the 4K camp for about 7-9 months since I added the UB820 as my 4K source. I set the 820 to HDR out and SDR out and the HDR signal was dim and the colors dull, "washed out" as has been said before by others. I then reverted to SDR and the image was bright and the colors vibrant, everything popped. It did seem a little too red at Color Sat of 80 and dropped it to 75 and it looked right to my eyes. I do have the 820 set to Projector with the Optimizer off and the Dynamic slider at +10. I'd like to thank everyone here for their advice and thoughts and willingness to share with others. I'll try to post some pics, I spun Infinity War and then the new 4k Superman: The Movie since it's a movie I'm very familiar with. Going to see what this does with MI: Fallout, any other badly encoded movies I should spin?
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