Official Epson 5040ub/6040ub owners thread - Page 73 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2161 of 18082 Old 10-27-2016, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Waboman View Post
My aging JVC is slowly dying and this projector is at the top of my list to replace it. Glad to read it's been so well received amongst the members here.


My 5 years old RS40 died few months ago after several bulb failures. Pretty happy so far with this one.
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post #2162 of 18082 Old 10-27-2016, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
I've seen the 5040, JVC RS400, Epson LS1000 and Sony 520 side by side in a split screen set up, with them all being calibrated, and in mixed scenes you can't really tel them apart with SDR. The biggest difference was contrast and black level capability, and with the JVC, image noise.



With HDR the Sony was only marginally better on resolution, and that was mostly in static scenes. With motion it was very difficult to tell them apart. WCG went to the 5040.



Of them all, the best image came from the Epson LS10000 which also had the best black levels. The 5040 was very similar but lacked the contrast/black floor. The JVC looked a little noisy and being quite bright had a raised black floor (the pjs weren't brightness matched). The Sony didn't excel anywhere and was considerably overpriced IMHO.


What do you mean image noise/little noisy?

It's a shame everyone can't get the same comparison in a store nearby as it would remove a lot of conjecture and people could decide with their own eyes


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post #2163 of 18082 Old 10-27-2016, 01:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by c.kingsley View Post
I could have been more delicate but I still stand by my original statement. Your recent screenshots underscore the legitimacy of my original comments. You've manually forced BT2020 in the 5040 menu. Why did you do that? The 5040 will detect HDR vs SDR automatically when it is configured correctly. Why not change that setting back to Auto and then attach a screenshot of your info screen while viewing a UHD? It should say 4k 4:2:2 12bit HDR BT2020 on that screen. If it doesn't... refer to my previous post.
Seriously still hanging on this, huh?

All I did was put the 5040 in BT2020 mode so it would ensure it didn't "automatically" switch off of it while I was doing my setup, plus I did it for the screen shots I was taking of the menus so people could SEE what mode to make sure it's in when I posted said pictures. It doesn't change a lick what the Philips is giving me, which WAS INDEED (as I have stated already in my last reply to you!) sending me the proper 2160p HDR BT2020 4:2:2 12 bit signal! Get off it already and actually read what others are writing, open your mind and get past what you WANT to believe. I KNOW what I am doing here and have been doing it since 1987! Here's your damned screen shot, sheesh, now move on already!

BTW, NONE of my previous screen shots were for "quality" purposes, they were to show you what settings I was using so others could try to duplicate. Screen shots are completely worthless anyway. Who the hell knows what display they're being viewed on, much less the million other factors involved in what the end user is seeing.

You are certainly welcome to come visit beautiful Hawaii and stop by to see this first hand for yourself. Or you can get hold of your own 5040/6040 and a Sony 350, an XB1 S and then put in my EXACT SETTINGS and tweak for your setup and see this yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ndabunka View Post
Negatory Ghost rider. I turned BRIGHTNESS up, not contrast (this compensates for the darker treatment of the UHD signal and leaves contrast in the correct range.

Change to a different source as those images aren't the best for testing IMHO. Why not something with a lot fof colors in it like "Life or Pii"?

Also, there IS something about a restriction on the wireless that may be causing you difficulties. Can you remove that from the equation and test using ONLY a hard HDMI cable or is that not viable. You can always put the wireless back in the signal chain again later, right?

Note: You should not have to "force" any of the color settings. I left mine all set to AUTO
Try using my settings that I posted with images from last night.

I heard the opposite on the wireless, that it allows MORE options to come through than the wired, but I will try it anyway, just to quiet the naysayers.

You guys DO realize what selecting it on the PROJECTOR/DISPLAY DEVICE is doing right? That doesn't change one iota what the source, in this case the Philips UHD BR, is sending you. That ONLY changes what mode the projector is in. If you mismatch them, then the image is messed up. If you select the SAME ONE THAT'S BEING SENT, all is fine! (which I did and told you why previously, so as not to have the projector changes modes while I was setting up and adjusting it)
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post #2164 of 18082 Old 10-27-2016, 01:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Dandlj View Post
.........It's a shame everyone can't get the same comparison in a store nearby as it would remove a lot of conjecture and people could decide with their own eyes........
I'm speaking from fact, not "conjecture", BTW. The 2 identical scenes on the two different projectors are clearly and factually different, with the 350ES being the better one. It is VERY easy to see. I am not saying that the 5040 didn't give an awesome image after I tweaked some more last night and posted those settings, because it DID! If I had seen it blind without comparing to the Sony I would have been very happy and would be keeping the 5040UBe. For everyone out there, please try my settings on your 5040/6040. I think you will be pretty happy.

As others have said and rightly so, it's because the Sony is a higher quality, more expensive machine. I just thought maybe with the addition of HDR/BT2020 in the 5040, it would've made them equal or even the 5040 possibly better. This was not the case unfortunately. Believe me, I wanted it to be so I could keep the Epson.

I think the key here was the fact that the 5040 only shows perceived resolution of 4K pixels as opposed to 8K on the Sony. Also the fact that the XB1 S was able to output PC RGB and the Sony was able to handle it and appears to really shine with that when pairing with the XB1S. I could not duplicate that with the Philips, on either the Sony or the 5040. If I recall, I think I tried the XB1S with PC RGB on the 5040, but the wireless Tx couldn't accept it. Maybe I will try what ndabunka suggested and use the wired connection to see what that gives me.
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post #2165 of 18082 Old 10-27-2016, 02:00 PM
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Don't worry about what you heard regarding wireless channel. Grab the manual online and read it for yourself. Certain modes are limited while on wireless HDMI. It's on the manual on a table. I posted it a while back too.

Setup: Epson 5040 UB, 110" SilverTicket AT screen, PS3 bluray, Yamaha RX-V673 AVR, Polk and Athena speakers, Batcave room.
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post #2166 of 18082 Old 10-27-2016, 02:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by gnolivos View Post
Don't worry about what you heard regarding wireless channel. Grab the manual online and read it for yourself. Certain modes are limited while on wireless HDMI. It's on the manual on a table. I posted it a while back too.
What I "read" was that the wireless bypassed the one HDMI chip that's used for the wired input, which has less specs than the one the wireless signal gets processed through. Is this not the case? Any links?

I used the wireless Tx to send the HDMI signal for that screen shot I posted above. That certainly looks like it's sending the right signal through wireless to me. (YCbCr 2160p 4:4:4 12 Bit HDR BT.2020) No?

I did read the manual before I got this, but I'll check it out again when I can, thanks!
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post #2167 of 18082 Old 10-27-2016, 02:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by gnolivos View Post
Don't worry about what you heard regarding wireless channel. Grab the manual online and read it for yourself. Certain modes are limited while on wireless HDMI. It's on the manual on a table. I posted it a while back too.
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
What I "read" was that the wireless bypassed the one HDMI chip that's used for the wired input, which has less specs than the one the wireless signal gets processed through. Is this not the case? Any links?

I used the wireless Tx to send the HDMI signal for that screen shot I posted above. That certainly looks like it's sending the right signal through wireless to me. (YCbCr 2160p 4:4:4 12 Bit HDR BT.2020) No?

I did read the manual before I got this, but I'll check it out again when I can, thanks!
Seems to me that you're confusing the two and swapping their capabilities. This image from the manual and posted here, as well as the screen shot I posted, contradict you and says that the wireless option ADDS a couple modes it's capable of as compared to the wired HDMI, as I stated:



You can easily see that the wireless option adds the 4K (24p) 4:4:4 10 and 12 bit options (converted to 10 bit) that the wired shows it does NOT have.

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post #2168 of 18082 Old 10-27-2016, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
I'm speaking from fact, not "conjecture", BTW. The 2 identical scenes on the two different projectors are clearly and factually different, with the 350ES being the better one. It is VERY easy to see. I am not saying that the 5040 didn't give an awesome image after I tweaked some more last night and posted those settings, because it DID! If I had seen it blind without comparing to the Sony I would have been very happy and would be keeping the 5040UBe. For everyone out there, please try my settings on your 5040/6040. I think you will be pretty happy.

As others have said and rightly so, it's because the Sony is a higher quality, more expensive machine. I just thought maybe with the addition of HDR/BT2020 in the 5040, it would've made them equal or even the 5040 possibly better. This was not the case unfortunately. Believe me, I wanted it to be so I could keep the Epson.
Return the Gamma back to default and you might see a better EPSON image. That Gamma set to 2 "option" was just in case someone wanted to try it. It does require a lot of correcting if it is used

SDR with BT.2020 - I just showed that it IS possible to represent it on this projector. I do agree that you have to match source and destination & I don't run ANYTHING in SDR so I simply don't know if other additional tools may also be required.

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post #2169 of 18082 Old 10-27-2016, 02:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ndabunka View Post
Return the Gamma back to default and you might see a better EPSON image. That Gamma set to 2 "option" was just in case someone wanted to try it. It does require a lot of correcting if it is used.....
Already did and it doesn't. Have you tried my settings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ndabunka View Post
......SDR with BT.2020 - I just showed that it IS possible to represent it on this projector. I do agree that you have to match source and destination & I don't run ANYTHING in SDR so I simply don't know if other additional tools may also be required.

Wireless - I may have a link to that post somewhere in my book marks.
I think you're missing something here. The projector is still "receiving" the HDR signal, so by setting it to SDR you are creating a mismatch and therefore not using the proper tone map/lookup table for the colors to be accurate, etc. This is exactly why you DO need an HDFury Integral in the chain, because that device does the proper tone mapping to the signal from HDR (sent by the source) through the Integral (tone mapping), to SDR while maintaining BT2020 WCG (sent to the projector).

Try my settings, it keeps ALL of the higher specs in tact.

I just posted links saying the wireless adds capabilities.
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post #2170 of 18082 Old 10-27-2016, 03:02 PM
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Page 160.

Setup: Epson 5040 UB, 110" SilverTicket AT screen, PS3 bluray, Yamaha RX-V673 AVR, Polk and Athena speakers, Batcave room.
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post #2171 of 18082 Old 10-27-2016, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
I just posted links saying the wireless adds capabilities.
As I read that, it doesn't add anything except for being able to accept 4k24p 4:4:4 10/12bit but since it's processed at 4:2:2 10bit, it's not actually more capable as such.
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post #2172 of 18082 Old 10-27-2016, 03:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by gnolivos View Post
Page 160.
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Originally Posted by LondonBenji View Post
As I read that, it doesn't add anything except for being able to accept 4k24p 4:4:4 10/12bit but since it's processed at 4:2:2 10bit, it's not actually more capable as such.
Yet, here we are:



If something can accept more signals than something else, whether it actually displays them doesn't mean it isn't more capable or doesn't add extra functionality, because it does. If that were the case, then the 5040/6040 wouldn't "add" anything to 1080p nor be able to be called a "4K Capable" projector, because it doesn't actually "display" the 4K signal that it receives in a true 4K image!

And the 4Kx2K (SMPTE) is 4096 x 2160, which UHD BRs (and most all streaming 4K sources I believe) do not have. They use 3840 x 2160p, so it's pretty much moot.

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post #2173 of 18082 Old 10-27-2016, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Already did and it doesn't. Have you tried my settings?
I must have missed them. Which post # in this thread has them?

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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
I think you're missing something here. The projector is still "receiving" the HDR signal, so by setting it to SDR you are creating a mismatch and therefore not using the proper tone map/lookup table for the colors to be accurate, etc. This is exactly why you DO need an HDFury Integral in the chain, because that device does the proper tone mapping to the signal from HDR (sent by the source) through the Integral (tone mapping), to SDR while maintaining BT2020 WCG (sent to the projector).
I may well be. I will have to read more on the HD Fury. I was just happy that all the HDR stuff was viable on the 5040 that I must have mis-understood exactly what the HD Fury was doing.
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post #2174 of 18082 Old 10-27-2016, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by gnolivos View Post
Page 160.
This was what I saw previously on the restrictions for DEEP COLOR. But there appears to be a lot of confusion as to what DEEP COLOR actually IS even among the players on this board. Many say that it's a parameter for older BluRay disc and does nothing or should actually be TURNED OFF for UHD. if that's the case than perhaps this restriction/limitation is firing blanks.

The intor from another (much longer) thread on another HT enthusiast site..."HDMI Deep Colour is about bit depth and numerical precision and doesn't provide a wider colour gamut, greater saturation or more vibrant colour."

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post #2175 of 18082 Old 10-27-2016, 03:52 PM
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I proudly upgraded my 6030 to a 6040 this weekend. So far impressed with the picture. However, I only have a Roku Ultra as a UHD source and am having trouble setting the Roku display type to 4K UHD HDR. Apparently my Roku tells me that the display does not report back as an HDR capable display, please consult TV settings to enable Deep COlor. I have all this interconnected via a Yamaha AVR 3050 which features both HDMI 2.0a inputs with HDCP 2.2. Is this a compatibilty issue. I just updated both Roku and Yamaha with the latest firmware updated. Please help!
I contacted Roku about this. Apparently the Netflix app (specifically) is broken. If you try another 4K source (such as Amazon) it works fine.
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post #2176 of 18082 Old 10-27-2016, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Seriously still hanging on this, huh?

All I did was put the 5040 in BT2020 mode so it would ensure it didn't "automatically" switch off of it while I was doing my setup, plus I did it for the screen shots I was taking of the menus so people could SEE what mode to make sure it's in when I posted said pictures....
Thanks. I think you misunderstand my intent and that is unfortunate. I've had a 5040 for several weeks and I understand first hand what happens on screen when the source color is mismatched with the display, e.g. SDR input and HDR1-4 set rather than Auto. My request had everything to do with ensuring precision--to verify an apples to apples comparison. I'm not trying to stir the pot...

Did you arrive at those settings using gear, colorimeter, etc. or was it done by eye?
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post #2177 of 18082 Old 10-27-2016, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Yet, here we are:

If something can accept more signals than something else, whether it actually displays them doesn't mean it isn't more capable or doesn't add extra functionality, because it does. If that were the case, then the 5040/6040 wouldn't "add" anything to 1080p nor be able to be called a "4K Capable" projector, because it doesn't actually "display" the 4K signal that it receives in a true 4K image!

And the 4Kx2K (SMPTE) is 4096 x 2160, which UHD BRs (and most all streaming 4K sources I believe) do not have. They use 3840 x 2160p, so it's pretty much moot.
Is that from the projector menu or the player? Also your analogy doesn't work, it's not just a 1080p projector, it actually does something else in addition to replicate 4k displays, otherwise everyone would be calling a 1080p projector 4k.

The correct analogy in reference to what I was saying is for example 720p projectors which will happily accept a 1080p signal and resize it to 720p. Just because it displays the 1080p video, doesn't mean you're getting a 1080p output.

At the end of the day, wireless simply doesn't have the bandwidth without compression or compromise.

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post #2178 of 18082 Old 10-27-2016, 04:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ndabunka View Post
I must have missed them. Which post # in this thread has them?


I may well be. I will have to read more on the HD Fury. I was just happy that all the HDR stuff was viable on the 5040 that I must have mis-understood exactly what the HD Fury was doing.
The settings are in the pictures I attached here on this post:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-dig...l#post47756625

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Originally Posted by ndabunka View Post
This was what I saw previously on the restrictions for DEEP COLOR. But there appears to be a lot of confusion as to what DEEP COLOR actually IS even among the players on this board. Many say that it's a parameter for older BluRay disc and does nothing or should actually be TURNED OFF for UHD. if that's the case than perhaps this restriction/limitation is firing blanks
Deep Color is ANY color gamut with more than a billion colors, so it applies to SD and UHD Blurays and other sources. It's basically anything above the 8 bit color gamut, like 10, 12, 16 bits, etc.

Here is good info on it:

https://sewelldirect.com/learning-ce...-is-deep-color
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post #2179 of 18082 Old 10-27-2016, 04:45 PM
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That screenshot of signal settings is irrelevant. It is not the projector menu!

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post #2180 of 18082 Old 10-27-2016, 04:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by c.kingsley View Post
Thanks. I think you misunderstand my intent and that is unfortunate. I've had a 5040 for several weeks and I understand first hand what happens on screen when the source color is mismatched with the display, e.g. SDR input and HDR1-4 set rather than Auto. My request had everything to do with ensuring precision--to verify an apples to apples comparison. I'm not trying to stir the pot...

Did you arrive at those settings using gear, colorimeter, etc. or was it done by eye?
I completely understood your "intent", but you misunderstood what hard switching it to the actual signal selection does in the projector apparently. I am trained enough to know and see what happens when signals conflict. It is VERY easy to see when you send an HDR signal into a display device that is set to display SDR. I am sure I would have noticed, but thank you. I certainly know enough not to "flail about in the menus"

So far I only used the XB1S's "Calibrate TV" feature that allows you to set brightness, contrast, color and tint. My 350es is already ISF calibrated, but that was using bt709 discs and test patterns, etc. I understand the limitations of this and went with my WELL TRAINED eyes and experience to judge the end results on screen and any non-blind person with any experience whatsoever can see the clear difference and better image of the Sony when doing direct comparisons, as I have been for the last few days. I haven't had time to drag out all my gearand set it up in the evenings this week and will certainly do that when I am able. Believe me, I am just as curious, if not more, than you are!

I was allowing the Epson's lamp to settle in before breaking out my gear and calibrating that, even though it will change in the first hundred or more hours as the lamp ages and settles in completely. It will not make a difference with the differences that I see between them though, mainly resolution, "naturalness" and depth of image with the Sony. The results I have gotten are arguably the BEST I have ever seen in my demo theaters wherever I have been (not including on the job with some of my very wealthy clients that could afford displays like the Sony VPL-VW5000ES and some trade shows like CES, T.H.E. Show and CEDIA). So far, being mainly a sole proprietor calibration and consulting business, I can only afford the Sony 350ES, and that was with an awesome discount from my main dealer that I have worked for and with for many years. I am working on being able to get a 365ES from him so I have full HDR/WCG support, and it's also why I decided to try the 5040 since it was so much cheaper, even with my discount. But alas, the 350ES even with it's limitations still outperforms the 5040/6040.

So if anyone is in the market for something like the 5040/6040, I would HIGHLY consider the Sony 300/350ES as well if it's close to the price or even maybe $1K more than the 6040UB. The native 4K and xvColor feature still appears to bring it above the faux-K with HDR of the Epson. (not drastically, but perceptible)
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post #2181 of 18082 Old 10-27-2016, 05:06 PM
 
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That screenshot of signal settings is irrelevant. It is not the projector menu!
Are you talking to ME? It is OF COURSE the "projector menu"!!!





What the heck is in the water around here at AVS lately??? So many naysayers, just to be contrarians or something!

Why do people seem to NEVER put forth the time and effort to read and comprehend what was written BEFORE replying with a bunch of hogwash that doesn't even pertain to what was posted? This explains a lot in our society nowadays, such short attention spans and lack of attention to detail.
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post #2182 of 18082 Old 10-27-2016, 05:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by LondonBenji View Post
Is that from the projector menu or the player? Also your analogy doesn't work, it's not just a 1080p projector, it actually does something else in addition to replicate 4k displays, otherwise everyone would be calling a 1080p projector 4k.

The correct analogy in reference to what I was saying is for example 720p projectors which will happily accept a 1080p signal and resize it to 720p. Just because it displays the 1080p video, doesn't mean you're getting a 1080p output.

At the end of the day, wireless simply doesn't have the bandwidth without compression or compromise.
Oh dear Lord, I give up!
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post #2183 of 18082 Old 10-27-2016, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Are you talking to ME? It is OF COURSE the "projector menu"!!!











What the heck is in the water around here at AVS lately??? So many naysayers, just to be contrarians or something!



Why do people seem to NEVER put forth the time and effort to read and comprehend what was written BEFORE replying with a bunch of hogwash that doesn't even pertain to what was posted? This explains a lot in our society nowadays, such short attention spans and lack of attention to detail.


Lol that's ironic what you posted. You went ballistic. Are your screenshots from the projector? Yes they are. Why you thought I was referring to you? Must be your water.

In all seriousness I was referring to the guy posting several posts above where he CLEARLY is posting a picture from his PLAYER OR AVR.
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post #2184 of 18082 Old 10-27-2016, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
I'm speaking from fact, not "conjecture", BTW. The 2 identical scenes on the two different projectors are clearly and factually different, with the 350ES being the better one. It is VERY easy to see. I am not saying that the 5040 didn't give an awesome image after I tweaked some more last night and posted those settings, because it DID! If I had seen it blind without comparing to the Sony I would have been very happy and would be keeping the 5040UBe. For everyone out there, please try my settings on your 5040/6040. I think you will be pretty happy.



As others have said and rightly so, it's because the Sony is a higher quality, more expensive machine. I just thought maybe with the addition of HDR/BT2020 in the 5040, it would've made them equal or even the 5040 possibly better. This was not the case unfortunately. Believe me, I wanted it to be so I could keep the Epson.



I think the key here was the fact that the 5040 only shows perceived resolution of 4K pixels as opposed to 8K on the Sony. Also the fact that the XB1 S was able to output PC RGB and the Sony was able to handle it and appears to really shine with that when pairing with the XB1S. I could not duplicate that with the Philips, on either the Sony or the 5040. If I recall, I think I tried the XB1S with PC RGB on the 5040, but the wireless Tx couldn't accept it. Maybe I will try what ndabunka suggested and use the wired connection to see what that gives me.


Wasn't a criticism of you mate, just an observation that it would be beneficial for people to be able to easily compare projectors in the same demo room somewhere close to home


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post #2185 of 18082 Old 10-27-2016, 05:39 PM
 
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Lol that's ironic what you posted. You went ballistic. Are your screenshots from the projector? Yes they are. Why you thought I was referring to you? Must be your water.

In all seriousness I was referring to the guy posting several posts above where he CLEARLY is posting a picture from his PLAYER OR AVR.
Oh LOL! We are living on an old WWII test range where Navy ships used to shell the area from the ocean as target practice, so maybe there IS something in our water!

I don't see those. Do you have links? Do you mean mine when I replied to someone else telling me to show that I was getting 4K24p 4:4:4 HDR bt2020 from my Philips, which I was and posted a picture to prove it to him so he could see I wasn't just "flailing around in my menus"?

this one?


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post #2186 of 18082 Old 10-27-2016, 05:50 PM
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Oh gosh. Yes. I'm not paying enough attention. I thought that image was meant to prove the Epson was processing 4:4:4. LOL. It's admittedly hard to keep up. And i should have quoted the post or image for clarity.
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post #2187 of 18082 Old 10-27-2016, 05:57 PM
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What were your settings on the Sony? Did you have anything similar to what I posted? If not, then you wouldn't see what I see now on it.
As I said, all were calibrated and that's why they looked much the same in the most part - as they should. Resolution played little difference as the difference is very small. WCG made a more visible difference, as did contrast and black level.

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My thoughts are that HDR isn't quite there yet for projectors,
I think that's the general consensus.

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...
After I did this, it was quite easy to see the resolution difference between them, WITH moving scenes, not static!
Resolution is less visible during motion anyway, so static images will always be easier to tell resolution differences. It's easier to hit a stationary target for example, rather than a moving one, especially when it's on a random trajectory.

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Don't believe me? Grab a 5040/6040 and a Sony 300/350ES, install my settings and tweak slightly as needed for your environment, watch the opening scene, ch 15 and a few others from Revenant and THEN come back and tell me what you saw!
Maybe if you'd set them up the same as the guy who calibrated these (and JVC Z1 recently), that would remove any advantage you thought the Sony had - I'd be inclined to stick with calibrated images. There is another guy who posts her called Bandyka and he too was a big Sony fan until he saw the Epson LS10000 and he now has one of those and has sold the Sony.

That's not to say that the 4k Sony's don't produce a good image, because they do - when all correctly set up all the projectors mentioned produce fantastic images that would all look good in isolation and most people would be happy with, but when put up against each other in split screen and all at D65 with calibrated gamuts, you find that the resolution of the Sony is the least important part of the image. Higher contrast and WCG all have a more visible difference (it was the only way to accurately tell them apart, not the resolution when being presented with two pjs of the three without being told which was which), which is why the Sonys look way overpriced. I think I'd go with the 5040 over the 320 for example, but would prefer the contrast of the JVC if they were the same price. The Epson laser had the best image of them all though, but costs more money.

One recent test using an HTPC and MadVR scaling produced pretty much identical results on the Sony as on the eshifted JVC or Epson (can't remember which it was right now) and they provided pictures to prove it. It was done by Javs with Bandyka, and was the reason why Bandy changed his mind about the Sony. I don't have the link to the thread to hand, but a search might bring it up.

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post #2188 of 18082 Old 10-27-2016, 06:10 PM
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What do you mean image noise/little noisy?

Moving pixels on the JVC that weren't there on the other projectors, so it looked a little more digital. The most obvious scene was where the girl released the T-Rex near the end of the movie (Jurassic World), and had a red glow stick in her hand - there was image 'noise' from the red glow that wasn't present on the Sony or Epson. It could have been due to the JVC being brighter (even with the iris at -15 it had a raised black level compared to the Epson Laser), but I wasn't able to measure the fL to see what the white point was.

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It's a shame everyone can't get the same comparison in a store nearby as it would remove a lot of conjecture and people could decide with their own eyes
I completely agree. Luckily for me, this guy is the Chromapure distributor for the UK and knows calibration better than most, so is able to get the best out of a projector. Having more than one on at once to produce side by side split screen images from the same source gives you an immediate comparison without having to rely on memory so you can spot differences much easier.

For me, the only weakness of the 5040 is it's contrast and black level compared to some of the other pjs.

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Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

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post #2189 of 18082 Old 10-27-2016, 06:12 PM
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Are you talking to ME? It is OF COURSE the "projector menu"!!!
Why are you so angry? I'm trying to have a discussion with you and you're flying off the handle irrationally. Let's break it down again because I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.

1. You posted this picture claiming that WirelessHD adds more capability:



And while you're not technically wrong in terms of the WirelessHD adding more input capabilities. According to Epson's own manual which you posted, you're not gaining anything extra in terms of what you're actually getting from the output to/of the projector. To clarify, I'm not saying you can't input 4:4:4 10 and 12bit with the WirelessHD transmitter, I'm just saying that by what Epson says on that same page, that it's processed down to 4:2:2 10bit when output.

2. You then posted this so as to possibly demonstrate that I'm somehow wrong maybe? I'm not sure.



Now since I don't have the projector I wasn't sure if they'd changed the usual Epson menu system style (I have a 3500) hence why I was asking, I wasn't sure if that signal information was from the perspective of the source or from the projector itself. Now that I know through your somewhat childish screaming that it's from the player, which makes sense as the WirelessHD transmitter presents itself at being 4:4:4 10/12bit capable, so the player uses that.

3. You also posted an irrelevant analogy to these projectors actually being 4k as they are only 1080p. It's irrelevant because they aren't just any normal 1080p projector so your analogy doesn't fit.

4. You then posted these tiny images that I have no idea what they say and is clearly a different menu system to the first one you posted, which now I know to be the source and I personally recognise these as actually being the Epson menu system since I own a 3500, and proclaimed that of course they are from the projector contradicting what was previously posted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post





What the heck is in the water around here at AVS lately??? So many naysayers, just to be contrarians or something!

Why do people seem to NEVER put forth the time and effort to read and comprehend what was written BEFORE replying with a bunch of hogwash that doesn't even pertain to what was posted? This explains a lot in our society nowadays, such short attention spans and lack of attention to detail.
I think you need to take a step back, let your red mist disperse and calm down. Realise that perhaps you are projecting here and that perhaps you are the one that needs to take a little more time to read and comprehend what I am saying. Calling me a naysayer implies I have some sort of ulterior motive to try and discredit the capabilities of this projector? What exactly would I gain by doing that? How does that benefit me?

Now maybe the Epson menu pictures you finally posted show the signal information and also state the same 4:4:4 10/12bit input while using the WirelessHD transmitter and that's cool but you can't blame people for questioning it since it would contradict what Epson's very own manuals say is possible that YOU posted.

Now have a beer or something and go and enjoy your projector.
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post #2190 of 18082 Old 10-27-2016, 06:29 PM
 
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As I said, all were calibrated and that's why they looked much the same in the most part - as they should. Resolution played little difference as the difference is very small. WCG made a more visible difference, as did contrast and black level.

I think that's the general consensus.

Resolution is less visible during motion anyway, so static images will always be easier to tell resolution differences. It's easier to hit a stationary target for example, rather than a moving one, especially when it's on a random trajectory.

Maybe if you'd set them up the same as the guy who calibrated these (and JVC Z1 recently), that would remove any advantage you thought the Sony had - I'd be inclined to stick with calibrated images. There is another guy who posts her called Bandyka and he too was a big Sony fan until he saw the Epson LS10000 and he now has one of those and has sold the Sony.

That's not to say that the 4k Sony's don't produce a good image, because they do - when all correctly set up all the projectors mentioned produce fantastic images that would all look good in isolation and most people would be happy with, but when put up against each other in split screen and all at D65 with calibrated gamuts, you find that the resolution of the Sony is the least important part of the image. Higher contrast and WCG all have a more visible difference (it was the only way to accurately tell them apart, not the resolution when being presented with two pjs of the three without being told which was which), which is why the Sonys look way overpriced. I think I'd go with the 5040 over the 320 for example, but would prefer the contrast of the JVC if they were the same price. The Epson laser had the best image of them all though, but costs more money.

One recent test using an HTPC and MadVR scaling produced pretty much identical results on the Sony as on the eshifted JVC or Epson (can't remember which it was right now) and they provided pictures to prove it. It was done by Javs with Bandyka, and was the reason why Bandy changed his mind about the Sony. I don't have the link to the thread to hand, but a search might bring it up.
I know that and it's all well and good and I agree, but if they didn't use the settings and signals that I did and THEN calibrate it, the results are all moot. That's like pushing the gas and the brake pedal at the same time on the Sony 350 because you're self limiting it to the same signal that the other projector is getting. If you'd have read my posts, you'd see I changed what the Sony is getting because it's apparently capable of resolving more parameters using the PC-RGB output setting in the XB1S, which may also provide better tone mapping or something, helping it as well. If I use the Philips player, yes they are closer to the same, but that isn't the point here, is it? If the Sony has more capabilities than the 5040, then of course I am going to use each device to it's MAXIMUM potential when doing a comparison, no? We certainly wouldn't compare a 1080p projector with a 4K unit and say "hey, since the 1080p one can only accept a 1080p signal, lets only send that signal to both projectors and then say they are equal when being compared!"

In this case, WCG did NOT win out since the 5040 was offered it and the Sony was not, yet the Sony still blew away the 5040. I agree, it was the contrast and black level of the Sony that did it, because the HDR signal on the 5040 screws with those things and limits what it can do, but NOT on the Sony when fed the PC-RGB signal from the XB1S and using the settings I have now posted on numerous occasions that no one here seems to want to try themselves (if they have the same gear, which I would think someone in the world would since I posted this in the Sony 300/350ES thread too).

I will say this for the LAST time. Anyone is MORE THAN welcome to come by and see for themselves, or fly me there and have the same equipment there for me to set this up and show you all personally. Anything other than that, then you either take my word for it, or not. It doesn't effect ME in the least if you do because at least "I" and any clients that hire me to do the same will be enjoying this and seeing what can make this thing really sing with UHD BRDs. I would love to get my hands on a 365ES or higher to see what more they could possibly do as well.

I am done speaking of this unless my further testing on the 5040 reveals more than I've seen so far. If you have questions or comments, please make sure to actually READ my posts up until this point and comprehend what it is that I have done here. Thanks!
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