Optoma UHD60 4K HDR Projector at CES 2017 - Page 12 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #331 of 380 Old 04-24-2017, 12:06 PM
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Here is more info and pictures from Japanese website. Translated. https://translate.google.ca/translat...65&prev=search
13000 usd.

That'll be a hot seller.
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post #332 of 380 Old 04-24-2017, 03:43 PM
 
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It's 90,000 taiwanese yuan, which converts to just under 3K US, as expected.

http://www.currencyconverterx.com/90000-TWD-to-USD
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post #333 of 380 Old 04-25-2017, 04:04 PM
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I noticed today that the UHD60 & UHD65 are now in the Optoma distance calculator, there also appears to be another mystery (to me) model number UHD550X which has the same lens geometry as the the 60 & 65.

Would be nice if it was a higher end version with lasers, lens motors and a decent black level!
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post #334 of 380 Old 04-25-2017, 04:32 PM
 
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Black level could be improved somewhat with RGB lasers, at least in terms of dynamic contrast.

Although most "laser" projectors in the low end are likely to be blue + yellow phosphor. Which means a physical colour wheel would still be necessary, sadly.
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post #335 of 380 Old 04-25-2017, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
It's 90,000 taiwanese yuan, which converts to just under 3K US, as expected.

http://www.currencyconverterx.com/90000-TWD-to-USD
Ah I did Chinese
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post #336 of 380 Old 04-25-2017, 06:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AndreNewman View Post
I noticed today that the UHD60 & UHD65 are now in the Optoma distance calculator, there also appears to be another mystery (to me) model number UHD550X which has the same lens geometry as the the 60 & 65.



Would be nice if it was a higher end version with lasers, lens motors and a decent black level!

Could that 550X be a pro/commercial version of the same chassis?
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post #337 of 380 Old 04-25-2017, 11:32 PM
 
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PureEngine and MEMC seem to both refer to motion compensation features. Also, Optoma seems to use Pixelwork's FI tech which is apparently one of the best commercially available in terms of artifacts.

Hard to tell about WCG and/or 3D. If it doesn't mention something that's usually not a good sign. I'd love to be able to watch my LOTR / Hobbit Bluray collection with IR-based 3D at 60hz per eye and full res.

WCG I could probably hack in with my Epson cinema filter, and tweak the service menu to offset the gamut coordinates.
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post #338 of 380 Old 04-26-2017, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
I'd love to be able to watch my LOTR / Hobbit Bluray collection with IR-based 3D at 60hz per eye and full res.
But they were shot at 48p so 60hz per eye would be horrible!

I'd like to watch my LOTR / Hobbit Bluray collection with RF-based 3D at 24p per eye, triple flashed to 144Hz and full res. :-)

I'm being realistic, I'd really like to watch it at 48p per eye but I don't see that being released in any format any time soon.

I saw the jungle book in 120Hz 6p 3D at IBC and that was amazing, I'd like something for home that could do that too...
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post #339 of 380 Old 04-26-2017, 09:00 AM
 
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I worked with some folks who worked on the Hobbit films, and asked them about getting 48hz versions and they shrugged. Maybe when high framerate 3D spec comes out. But really, for 3D, all you actually need is 120hz. As soon as you have that, you are "3D Ready". This was true all the way back to 720p projectors and TVs and computer monitors. (even CRTs, actually, especially CRTs).

I usually rip my 3D Blurays to my hard drive and watch them from my HTPC in O/U or SBS mode, which trades 50% resolution for 2.5x increased framerate in stereo. A very fair trade, IMO. 3D requires all the smoothness you can give it, to really pull it off. 24p is just annoying for 3D, and likely one of the reasons it irritates people. It's like, the disadvantages of judder are multiplied. Much better to apply smoothing to it and the illusion becomes real.

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post #340 of 380 Old 04-26-2017, 01:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
......WCG I could probably hack in with my Epson cinema filter, and tweak the service menu to offset the gamut coordinates.

That kind of sounds familiar. See the linked post below my signature. Although I used front facing menus and not the service menu.

It's an awesome solution to get HDR on an SDR only 4K display. The image looks absolutely incredible on the Epson 5040UB in SDR mode. I'm getting an LS10000 to apply this on today.
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post #341 of 380 Old 05-07-2017, 09:21 AM
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Supposedly this thing was coming out in June right? No updates, no info, no reviews, no word at all. Weird, wish we'd get some info already...

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post #342 of 380 Old 05-08-2017, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
HDR really needs high peak nits and good ANSI contrast, not just on/off contrast.
Sorry if this has already been covered in the thread, but while HDR requires good ANSI CR, if the on/off CR is low then the ANSI CR could be as high as the on/off CR and still not have good CR for what HDR needs. For instance, if you had a 900:1 ANSI CR and 1000:1 on/off CR projector then with HDR scenes with little highlights on an otherwise dark scene the intra-image CR is still going to be low because of the high black floor, compared to a somewhat lower ANSI CR projector with significantly more native on/off CR.

In HDR the ANSI CR pattern is 50% of the HDR peak white level average and an image that bright in real content should be extremely rare, or non-existent.

If you had that 900:1/1000:1 combination without a dynamic iris (or similar dynamic system) then a scene from an HDR movie that only has SDR levels (this should be a lot of them since not every scene calls for HDR levels) will have an absolute black floor that is 1/1000th of the HDR white level, not the SDR white level. So, an SDR graded scene in an HDR version could have worse intra-image CR than the same scene in an SDR version. This is one reason I feel that on/off CR becomes more important with HDR content.
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the thing is 2716x1528 is exactly 4 million pixels just as 1920x2160 or 3840x1080. So why TI just make these micro-mirrors into a 1920x2160 or 3840x1080 array and has a easy simple way (at least I think so) to shift them to a 1:1 4K image?

I guess there must be a reason for TI using this 2716x1528 arrangement.
Sorry if your question was completely answered already, but one reason the pixels overlap on screen instead of creating a product where the 4k pixels really were completely unique after 2 flashes is that the images would need to have low fill ratio in order for a second set of pixels to land where there were no pixels in the first flash and this would hurt in multiple ways. Each flashed image would need to have a fill ratio of 50% or less. Without some real magic to pinpoint the light to the mirrors that would mean half the light would be wasted for each flash. That would not only reduce the peak light output of the projector, but mean poor on/off CR (even poorer than these have already).

The only way I see around that problem is if they could do something like light the left side of the screen with one flash and the right side with another flash, but that would be a huge shift that would come with other problems.

If they could somehow have say 90% fill ratio on the chip and focus each pixel so that the fill ratio of each flash was less than 50% at the screen I could see that working, but cannot imagine an optical system that would achieve that.

As far as the confusion about resolution, here is something I found on the projectorcentral website about the UHD60:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/news_story_2147.htm
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Optoma UHD60: For home theater aficionados, the Optoma UHD60 projector delivers true 4K UHD for the ultimate in image quality. This 3,840 x 2,160 resolution home cinema projector with vertical lens shift will be available for just $2,799 in Q2 2017.
Looks like they got confused by the marketing and thought that since they were told it was true 4K UHD then it must be 3840x2160. It can be argued they are 4k (depends on how you or an organization defines 4k), but they are not 3840x2160 resolution projectors. They are 2716x1528 displayed twice after a shift, for an overlapped resolution (not independent) of 5432x3056. Being able to display a hand picked 3840x2160 test pattern well doesn't make a projector 3840x2160.

--Darin

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post #343 of 380 Old 05-09-2017, 07:29 AM
 
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If they could somehow have say 90% fill ratio on the chip and focus each pixel so that the fill ratio of each flash was less than 50% at the screen I could see that working, but cannot imagine an optical system that would achieve that.
With RGB scanning lasers you could re-introduce the concept of interlaced (native) scan, rather than progressive scan, and then draw 50% of the lines one frame then 50% the next.

You could double the framerate this way but it would cut vertical resolution AND lumens in half, which is bad (especially the lumens part). Interlaced was a smart idea at the time (CRTs), but, at least at the signal level, if you need to cut your bandwidth requirements in half, you would do it via YCbCr 420 instead and only lose chroma resolution, not RGB* resolution.

Any time you drop fill ratio you lose lumens so it's a good idea to do that deliberately for projectors, especially not when you're also trying to boost peak brightness to achieve higher HDR peaks, which is right now their biggest flaw compared to TVs (I'm talking LCoS projectors here), IMO.

*speaking of tricks to double refresh rate w/o dropping luma res in half: this is IT. They could have done this for 1080p / 60hz 3D modes, instead of losing half vertical or horizontal RGB resolution using SBS or O/U modes, you could simply cut chroma res to 420 and then pack in two frames in an over-under mode. At the time, nobody thought 420 was worth pursuing, which is unfortunate. 420 only became officially supported in HDMI 2.0 hardware although it's certainly possible to output it over HDMI 1.4 hardware (Kepler GPUs for instance, added 420 to allow 4K60 over HDMI 1.4 via a driver update).


--------------

All this talk of achieving perfect 4K for data-grade projection has been discussed to death. The problem with these 4K DLPs isn't a lack of static resolution for movies / games, it's the low-ish contrast, lack of 3D, WCG filter, still using lamps, size, noise, no 120hz mode even in 1080p, etc. A WCG filter could enhance perceptual contrast ratio by trading lumens for wider gamut, and as we all (should) know, more saturated primaries appear to be brighter, so the black floor would drop more than the (perceived) white point.

But from what I could see, the UHD65 doesn't appear to have a WCG filter. Also, they dropped their CES lumens rating from 3000 to 2400, anyone notice that? I guess they realized it was a stretch pretending like it was that high (likely not even 2400 either). I'm still hopeful some of my wishlist might make it through, and if the Pixelworks FI is decent I might grab one of these so I can start watching HDR content. Then again, it seems foolish to buy an HDR projector without WCG too (or even make one, what is up with that? Epsons have had cinema filters for many years now, it costs literally twenty dollars to add one).
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post #344 of 380 Old 05-09-2017, 10:09 AM
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Sorry if this has already been covered in the thread, but while HDR requires good ANSI CR, if the on/off CR is low then the ANSI CR could be as high as the on/off CR and still not have good CR for what HDR needs. For instance, if you had a 900:1 ANSI CR and 1000:1 on/off CR projector then with HDR scenes with little highlights on an otherwise dark scene the intra-image CR is still going to be low because of the high black floor, compared to a somewhat lower ANSI CR projector with significantly more native on/off CR.


I agree in principle with this statement but I guess my argument would be they sell all kinds of HDR LCD screens and LCD has a very low native contrast. The trick is when any light is present it is much harder for our eyes to perceive degrees of black even though miniscule differences in black level make an enormous impact in a contrast spec.

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post #345 of 380 Old 05-09-2017, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
*speaking of tricks to double refresh rate w/o dropping luma res in half: this is IT. They could have done this for 1080p / 60hz 3D modes, instead of losing half vertical or horizontal RGB resolution using SBS or O/U modes, you could simply cut chroma res to 420 and then pack in two frames in an over-under mode.
I don't understand how 420 would help with an RGB system (RGB laser or RGB colorwheel) when even putting out a gray image properly requires displaying R, G, and B in their proper portions, unless you mean that the signal input to the projector is the limiting factor and the chips are fast enough to do the whole high resolution image with all 3 colors balanced properly.
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I agree in principle with this statement but I guess my argument would be they sell all kinds of HDR LCD screens and LCD has a very low native contrast.
Have you seen one that doesn't have zones? These projectors essentially have one zone. Low native CR is fine if you have enough zones to make up for it.

Even with LCDs having low native CR I'm thinking lots of them still have much higher native CR than this projector, at least on axis, even before considering the zone systems the LCD screens use.
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The trick is when any light is present it is much harder for our eyes to perceive degrees of black even though miniscule differences in black level make an enormous impact in a contrast spec.
This is true to a large degree, but the native on/off CR I expect with these Optoma models should be so low that people will still see gray instead of black in a lot of these images. If they had/have good dynamic systems that would help, but only so much with very low on/off CR. I expect that making a dynamic system that helps a lot and doesn't show obvious pumping would be very difficult starting with the on/off CRs it sounds like these projectors have.

--Darin
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post #346 of 380 Old 05-09-2017, 01:07 PM
 
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I don't understand how 420 would help with an RGB system (RGB laser or RGB colorwheel) when even putting out a gray image properly requires displaying R, G, and B in their proper portions, unless you mean that the signal input to the projector is the limiting factor and the chips are fast enough to do the whole high resolution image with all 3 colors balanced properly.
Chroma subsampling has nothing to do with colour wheels or lasers or anything related to the implementation, it's just a way to squeeze more data through the HDMI cable.

YCbCr 444 / 422 / 420 video signals must always first be converted to RGB, then a LUT is applied to the native display curve, then the R'G'B' data is displayed.

DLPs are linear display devices, unlike LCDs or CRTs, meaning there is no inherent gamma (or other) curve, the LUT is effectively a "de-gamma" step with a colour calibration thrown in. Micro-mirror PWM FTW.

This is what would allow even ten year old DLPs to support HDR10 natively, if you could upload a new LUT you could theoretically encode every single 10-bit PQ value. That would be terrific because then I wouldn't need to upgrade my w1070 projector to watch UHD Blurays, and I could use my P3 filter for WCG.
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post #347 of 380 Old 05-09-2017, 01:13 PM
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Have you seen one that doesn't have zones? These projectors essentially have one zone. Low native CR is fine if you have enough zones to make up for it.

Even with LCDs having low native CR I'm thinking lots of them still have much higher native CR than this projector, at least on axis, even before considering the zone systems the LCD screens use.
This is true to a large degree, but the native on/off CR I expect with these Optoma models should be so low that people will still see gray instead of black in a lot of these images. If they had/have good dynamic systems that would help, but only so much with very low on/off CR. I expect that making a dynamic system that helps a lot and doesn't show obvious pumping would be very difficult starting with the on/off CRs it sounds like these projectors have.

--Darin
The brand new Sony X900E 65" HDR UHD LED LCD has 20 dimming zones... It has 8 million pixels. By my math the dimming zone to pixel ratio is slightly off. That kind of shotgun approach to pixel dimming isn't doing HDR any favors in my book. Which is why, I think, so many are hinging their hopes on OLED.
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post #348 of 380 Old 05-09-2017, 01:25 PM
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The brand new Sony X900E 65" HDR UHD LED LCD has 20 dimming zones... It has 8 million pixels. By my math the dimming zone to pixel ratio is slightly off.
I agree that isn't enough zones, but still likely better than only 1 zone with low on/off CR.
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That kind of shotgun approach to pixel dimming isn't doing HDR any favors in my book. Which is why, I think, so many are hinging their hopes on OLED.
I have an OLED and am a big fan, but with enough native on/off CR and zones the CR from an LCD display can look like the same to human vision from normal viewing ratios as per pixel high on/off CR like OLED has. With 1000:1 native on/off CR that may be something like 2000 or more zones with overlap (not rectangular with hard edges between zones).

--Darin
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I agree that isn't enough zones, but still likely better than only 1 zone with low on/off CR.
I have an OLED and am a big fan, but with enough native on/off CR and zones the CR from an LCD display can look like the same to human vision from normal viewing ratios as per pixel high on/off CR like OLED has. With 1000:1 native on/off CR that may be something like 2000 or more zones with overlap (not rectangular with hard edges between zones).

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20 is a Million times better than 1.

For 2.35 movies alone it's drastic.
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I would argue that its 20 times better

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post #351 of 380 Old 05-09-2017, 03:45 PM
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20 is a Million times better than 1.



For 2.35 movies alone it's drastic.


I disagree. Blooming FTW. When you've lived with high Ansi contrast displays for as long as I have (crt, plasma) even 'good' FALD sets look heinous. The only LCDs I buy are computer monitors and I just accept that LCD has poor contrast and look at it's bright sides-- it's cheap and bright.

Measuring contrast by the depth of your black bars is silly. The fact that a display can shut off the backlights behind those bars has no bearing on the content in the center of the screen. Anyway-- we're way off topic:

What to do if you find yourself stuck with no hope of rescue:
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post #352 of 380 Old 05-09-2017, 03:53 PM
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When you've lived with high Ansi contrast displays for as long as I have (crt, plasma) ...
CRTs didn't/don't have high ANSI CR.

I would have to go find the real numbers, but based on memory I measured a Sony BVM CRT monitor at about 250:1 ANSI CR and over 5000:1 on/off CR, with a Sony BVM LCD monitor at about 500:1 ANSI CR and 520:1 on/off CR.

With real content the CRT monitor completely blew away the horrid looking LCD monitor for blacks. This was at a time when many "experts" in the industry where claiming that ANSI CR was the right way to measure CR and on/off CR was a worthless measurement. INFOCOMM continues to misinform people about that subject as we speak, which is why after some experience with INFOCOMM employees and helpers I put very little faith in what that organization claims.

As far as CRT projectors the best I've heard of for ANSI CR was about 130:1 from a Sony G90. Still had great looking blacks at the time compared to digitals with much higher ANSI CRs.

--Darin
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CRTs didn't/don't have high ANSI CR.



I would have to go find the real numbers, but based on memory I measured a Sony BVM CRT monitor at about 250:1 ANSI CR and over 5000:1 on/off CR, with a Sony BVM LCD monitor at about 500:1 ANSI CR and 520:1 on/off CR.



With real content the CRT monitor completely blew away the horrid looking LCD monitor for blacks. This was at a time when many "experts" in the industry where claiming that ANSI CR was the right way to measure CR and on/off CR was a worthless measurement. INFOCOMM continues to misinform people about that subject as we speak, which is why after some experience with INFOCOMM employees and helpers I put very little faith in what that organization claims.



As far as CRT projectors the best I've heard of for ANSI CR was about 130:1 from a Sony G90. Still had great looking blacks at the time compared to digitals with much higher ANSI CRs.



--Darin


Wouldn't argue with that. I'm just simply stating that I take umbrage with the idea that I need 8 million pixels but I can get by with 20 or 80 or even 200 dimming 'zones'. I'd rather keep watching my 1080p plasma and have content that might actually take advantage of the contrast, color saturation and dynamic range that that old plasma still has over even the best LCD displays available today. That discontinued beast has 2 million distinct dimming zones. Local dimming on LCD is simply not fine enough to accomplish the kind of detail and realism HDR strives to achieve. Maybe if they implement the per pixel dimming that Panasonic teased last year and that I heard Dolby uses in their reference display.

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post #354 of 380 Old 05-10-2017, 06:08 AM
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CRTs didn't/don't have high ANSI CR.

I would have to go find the real numbers, but based on memory I measured a Sony BVM CRT monitor at about 250:1 ANSI CR and over 5000:1 on/off CR, with a Sony BVM LCD monitor at about 500:1 ANSI CR and 520:1 on/off CR.

With real content the CRT monitor completely blew away the horrid looking LCD monitor for blacks. This was at a time when many "experts" in the industry where claiming that ANSI CR was the right way to measure CR and on/off CR was a worthless measurement. INFOCOMM continues to misinform people about that subject as we speak, which is why after some experience with INFOCOMM employees and helpers I put very little faith in what that organization claims.

As far as CRT projectors the best I've heard of for ANSI CR was about 130:1 from a Sony G90. Still had great looking blacks at the time compared to digitals with much higher ANSI CRs.

--Darin
He ansi test by nature was hard for crts to display, despite demolishing anything in PQ.
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post #355 of 380 Old 05-10-2017, 06:09 AM
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I disagree. Blooming FTW. When you've lived with high Ansi contrast displays for as long as I have (crt, plasma) even 'good' FALD sets look heinous. The only LCDs I buy are computer monitors and I just accept that LCD has poor contrast and look at it's bright sides-- it's cheap and bright.

Measuring contrast by the depth of your black bars is silly. The fact that a display can shut off the backlights behind those bars has no bearing on the content in the center of the screen. Anyway-- we're way off topic:
1. It's perceptive

2. Which fald sets are you watching, I get very little blooming.

3. Which crt projectors did you own?
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Optoma UHD60 4K HDR Projector at CES 2017

Sharp elite, Vizio M, Vizio P. Never owned a CRT front projector but had several tubes up until last year when we donated our last CRT tube which was a toshiba HD unit. We still have a Sony CRT HD widescreen rear projection unit here but it belongs to my cousin. Doesn't get much use anymore. My main display is an HT2050 and then we have two plasmas: a 55VT60 and 50S30 (best gaming display ever) parked next to each other as a dual display gaming setup. My monitors are a BenQ RL2455 and an Asus 239. The BenQ is TN which is needed for fast action gaming. The Asus is IPs and I use it for most of my computer work in portrait mode but like most LCDs it's a blurry mess for anything more.

This is not meant as an indictment of LCD. I understand that I'm on the fringe. You can get used to anything. Unfortunately for me I never got used to sample and hold. For me: LCD is always either a blurry mess or has laughably bad viewing angles. Just as some people see rainbows on DLP I see motion issues on LCD. I'm sure if i spent more time staring at an LCD my brain would eventually program itself to ignore it. I just don't want to go through the hassle and as I have two excellent plasmas and a DLP front projector I've been able to buy myself some time before the LCD-pocalypse.

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post #357 of 380 Old 05-10-2017, 11:44 AM
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Sharp elite, Vizio M, Vizio P. Never owned a CRT front projector but had several tubes up until last year when we donated our last CRT tube which was a toshiba HD unit. We still have a Sony CRT HD widescreen rear projection unit here but it belongs to my cousin. Doesn't get much use anymore. My main display is an HT2050 and then we have two plasmas: a 55VT60 and 50S30 (best gaming display ever) parked next to each other as a dual display gaming setup. My monitors are a BenQ RL2455 and an Asus 239. The BenQ is TN which is needed for fast action gaming. The Asus is IPs and I use it for most of my computer work in portrait mode but like most LCDs it's a blurry mess for anything more.

This is not meant as an indictment of LCD. I understand that I'm on the fringe. You can get used to anything. Unfortunately for me I never got used to sample and hold. For me: LCD is always either a blurry mess or has laughably bad viewing angles. Just as some people see rainbows on DLP I see motion issues on LCD. I'm sure if i spent more time staring at an LCD my brain would eventually program itself to ignore it. I just don't want to go through the hassle and as I have two excellent plasmas and a DLP front projector I've been able to buy myself some time before the LCD-pocalypse.
Viewing angles are garbage, but I see no blooming on a vizio P. Black levels remind me of my old crts.

Maybe it's because I never had an LC set, so there was a slight bloom inherantly from the air coupling.
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funny how optoma is not giving out much information on the UHD60 and its releasing next month? can't wait to find out more lol
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funny how optoma is not giving out much information on the UHD60 and its releasing next month? can't wait to find out more lol
Are we sure it's being released next month? This is the reason why I didn't pick up the Epson 5040 last month when it was on sale for $2500.

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Are we sure it's being released next month? This is the reason why I didn't pick up the Epson 5040 last month when it was on sale for $2500.

Yikes. Well I'm sure the Epson will go on sale again. Hate to say it but I think everyone is super curious about the Optoma but I don't think anyone seriously expects it's picture quality to match up to the Epson 5040. Especially considering the BenQ 8050 doesn't really compete with the 5040/6040 and it's three times the price!

I hope I'm wrong but it appears the new 4K DMD doesn't address some of the long standing criticisms of darkchip 3. Namely: middling contrast and poor black levels. Time will tell and I hope I'm wrong. I love my little BenQ 2050 but I'm not sure I'd pay anywhere from 3 to 10 times it's price for the same contrast performance.
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What to do if you find yourself stuck with no hope of rescue:
Consider yourself lucky that life has been good to you so far. Alternatively, if life hasn't been good to you so far, which given your present circumstances seems to be more likely, consider yourself lucky that it won't be troubling you much longer...

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