Optoma UHD60 4K HDR Projector at CES 2017 - Page 13 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #361 of 380 Old 05-14-2017, 11:36 PM
 
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I agree about the challenge these DLPs will have to wow us uber-geeks and offer a compelling case for an upgrade.

Pixelworks FI being "great" or offering true 120hz at 1080p or above would likely convince me to pull the trigger.

Smurfs 2 being ripped is changing my cost / benefits analysis for spending 3 grand for 4K, absent the above two reasons for upgrade.

I think it's possible to modify the de-gamma LUT on my current DLP, and if not, use a 2.8 gamma value to decode PQ and then output that in 10-bit and get a faux-HDR image in glorious high bitrate, downscaled 4K, 444, P3 content. I may be able to live with that for another year.
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post #362 of 380 Old 05-15-2017, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
I agree about the challenge these DLPs will have to wow us uber-geeks and offer a compelling case for an upgrade.

Pixelworks FI being "great" or offering true 120hz at 1080p or above would likely convince me to pull the trigger.

Smurfs 2 being ripped is changing my cost / benefits analysis for spending 3 grand for 4K, absent the above two reasons for upgrade.

I think it's possible to modify the de-gamma LUT on my current DLP, and if not, use a 2.8 gamma value to decode PQ and then output that in 10-bit and get a faux-HDR image in glorious high bitrate, downscaled 4K, 444, P3 content. I may be able to live with that for another year.
If the UHD encryption format truly is cracked and Smurfs 2 was not just a fluke of bad encoding then you can bet your ass phone-home DRM is coming as it's in the BDA specs. Be careful what you wish for.

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post #363 of 380 Old 05-15-2017, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
If the UHD encryption format truly is cracked and Smurfs 2 was not just a fluke of bad encoding then you can bet your ass phone-home DRM is coming as it's in the BDA specs. Be careful what you wish for.

It's not cracked, not even close.
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post #364 of 380 Old 05-15-2017, 02:09 PM
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It's not cracked, not even close.
What do you mean? The truehd atmos track is packaged with that rip, which is only available on the UHD disk.

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post #365 of 380 Old 05-15-2017, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Mrjmc99 View Post
What do you mean? The truehd atmos track is packaged with that rip, which is only available on the UHD disk.

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http://deadline.com/2017/05/pirates-...om-1202094203/

https://www.theguardian.com/media/20...-the-new-black

The question you should ask is... where else is the UHD available.
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post #366 of 380 Old 05-15-2017, 07:31 PM
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Yikes. Well I'm sure the Epson will go on sale again. Hate to say it but I think everyone is super curious about the Optoma but I don't think anyone seriously expects it's picture quality to match up to the Epson 5040. Especially considering the BenQ 8050 doesn't really compete with the 5040/6040 and it's three times the price!

I hope I'm wrong but it appears the new 4K DMD doesn't address some of the long standing criticisms of darkchip 3. Namely: middling contrast and poor black levels. Time will tell and I hope I'm wrong. I love my little BenQ 2050 but I'm not sure I'd pay anywhere from 3 to 10 times it's price for the same contrast performance.


I loved my w1070 but the 5040ub is a significant upgrade in every way including black levels, brightness, contrast, 4k enhancement and quieter operation. I was going to hold out too but the reviews for the Epson were just too positive; turns out they were right.


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post #367 of 380 Old 05-15-2017, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
Yikes. Well I'm sure the Epson will go on sale again. Hate to say it but I think everyone is super curious about the Optoma but I don't think anyone seriously expects it's picture quality to match up to the Epson 5040. Especially considering the BenQ 8050 doesn't really compete with the 5040/6040 and it's three times the price!
Sage, where did you get your info for this comment. So far I haven't seen any picture quality reviews of the new BenQ8050. I would think that the new TI chip could easily produce an excellent quality picture with great black levels. given that the mirrors on the chip are either on or off.

I would think that most of the quality would depend on the light source, lens system, and how the chip was implemented.

I am hoping that the optoma HD60 or 65 will be a home run for inexpensive 4K projection.
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post #368 of 380 Old 05-15-2017, 09:48 PM
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There was one guy who owned both, and he preferred the BenQ, but he returned the BenQ because he thought it wasn't worth the added price.

I think in a batcave the Epson would blow it away, but it would be close in a living room.
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post #369 of 380 Old 05-16-2017, 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by GregCh View Post
Sage, where did you get your info for this comment. So far I haven't seen any picture quality reviews of the new BenQ8050. I would think that the new TI chip could easily produce an excellent quality picture with great black levels. given that the mirrors on the chip are either on or off.

I would think that most of the quality would depend on the light source, lens system, and how the chip was implemented.

I am hoping that the optoma HD60 or 65 will be a home run for inexpensive 4K projection.
Then "new" ti chip is based on 12 year old tech.

It's not new, and I'm not surprised it got demolished.
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post #370 of 380 Old 05-16-2017, 06:28 AM
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Yep, these would make this living room projectors for sports when they are 1K.
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post #371 of 380 Old 05-16-2017, 07:56 AM
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Then "new" ti chip is based on 12 year old tech.

It's not new, and I'm not surprised it got demolished.
I guess I don't follow your logic. This is a new chip in that it was recently released with the 4 million movable mirror .66 DMD form factor.

So what if the underlying tech is 12 years old. The underlying tech for digital computers are over 40 years old and yet new better performing versions still keep being produced and used daily.

This new TI chip if implemented properly and paired with a decent light source and lens system should be able to compete with higher end 4K projectors. Nothing wrong with that. Hopefully some of these newer lower cost projectors will help to bring down the price on the Sony 4K line of projectors.
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post #372 of 380 Old 05-16-2017, 08:30 AM
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I guess I don't follow your logic. This is a new chip in that it was recently released with the 4 million movable mirror .66 DMD form factor.

So what if the underlying tech is 12 years old. The underlying tech for digital computers are over 40 years old and yet new better performing versions still keep being produced and used daily.

This new TI chip if implemented properly and paired with a decent light source and lens system should be able to compete with higher end 4K projectors. Nothing wrong with that. Hopefully some of these newer lower cost projectors will help to bring down the price on the Sony 4K line of projectors.
You don't understand the logic because your argument isn't very logical.

Computer processor architectures change quite rapidly, especially in the GPU space these days. These 4k dmd's are still darkchip3(keep in mind they actually released 4) from 2004/2005.

TI has made no new developments since then, and plans on no more since they basically eliminated the consumer products segment.

Put all the fancy lenses you want, it won't help the ancient DMD's out very much. It's probably 1/2 the reason some of the nicer dlps had better CR than the budget stuff... but the other half is they were using the larger 1080p DMD's as well.
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post #373 of 380 Old 05-16-2017, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Verge2 View Post
You don't understand the logic because your argument isn't very logical.

Computer processor architectures change quite rapidly, especially in the GPU space these days. These 4k dmd's are still darkchip3(keep in mind they actually released 4) from 2004/2005.

TI has made no new developments since then, and plans on no more since they basically eliminated the consumer products segment.

Put all the fancy lenses you want, it won't help the ancient DMD's out very much. It's probably 1/2 the reason some of the nicer dlps had better CR than the budget stuff... but the other half is they were using the larger 1080p DMD's as well.

OK, I see what you are saying. I knew that they were darkchip3 based and not darkchip4. Yes, it would be better if TI was still working to improve the performance of the chip but I still wonder how much of the contrast issue isn't due to implementation. Using pixel shifting with 4 million pixels should help to eliminate the SDE effect that plagued darkchip3 design. If a high performance laser was used for a light source and a better quality lens was used to keep the light in focus. I would think that a good design could yield a very bright display with good contrast.

It might be just the ticket for current 4k UHD HDR material. You might be right that TI's 4k chip will never yield a projector to match contrast with something like the modern LCoS or LCoQ chips. However these chips also have their downside in that they don't produce bright enough images for HDR.
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post #374 of 380 Old 05-16-2017, 09:52 AM
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There is a lot of evidence that the mythical darkchip 4 was little more than cherry picked darkchip 3s.

I'm not going to get into the old vs new tech argument. The 4K DMD is clearly, obviously, a new chip design that is clearly, obviously, based off an existing technological development. Does that mean you could criticize it for being 'old' tech? Well sure but then you could criticize any projector or flat panel that uses an LCD and a backlight! I mean, LCD display has been around since, what, the 60s? Let's just say I can see both sides of the argument.

I'm really not interested in the tech. I'm so much more interested in the results. If you head over to the $3k+ projector forum you'll find this thread:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...2743977?page=1
In that thread is a link to a review of the European version of the BenQ HT8050 that absolutely savages it. This is NOT what a lot of people wanted to see as the HT8050 was supposedly the premier example of what the 4K DLP chip would be capable of.

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post #375 of 380 Old 05-16-2017, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Verge2 View Post
You don't understand the logic because your argument isn't very logical.



Computer processor architectures change quite rapidly, especially in the GPU space these days. These 4k dmd's are still darkchip3(keep in mind they actually released 4) from 2004/2005.



TI has made no new developments since then, and plans on no more since they basically eliminated the consumer products segment.



Put all the fancy lenses you want, it won't help the ancient DMD's out very much. It's probably 1/2 the reason some of the nicer dlps had better CR than the budget stuff... but the other half is they were using the larger 1080p DMD's as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GregCh View Post
Sage, where did you get your info for this comment. So far I haven't seen any picture quality reviews of the new BenQ8050. I would think that the new TI chip could easily produce an excellent quality picture with great black levels. given that the mirrors on the chip are either on or off.



I would think that most of the quality would depend on the light source, lens system, and how the chip was implemented.



I am hoping that the optoma HD60 or 65 will be a home run for inexpensive 4K projection.

There is a lot of evidence that the mythical darkchip 4 was little more than cherry picked darkchip 3s.

I'm not going to get into the old vs new tech argument. The 4K DMD is clearly, obviously, a new chip design that is clearly, obviously, based off an existing technological development. Does that mean you could criticize it for being 'old' tech? Well sure but then you could criticize any projector or flat panel that uses an LCD and a backlight! I mean, LCD display has been around since, what, the 60s? Let's just say I can see both sides of the argument.

I'm really not interested in the tech. I'm so much more interested in the results. If you head over to the $3k+ projector forum you'll find this thread:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...2743977?page=1
In that thread is a link to a review of the European version of the BenQ HT8050 that absolutely savages it. This is NOT what a lot of people wanted to see as the HT8050 was supposedly the premier example of what the 4K DLP chip would be capable of.

What to do if you find yourself stuck with no hope of rescue:
Consider yourself lucky that life has been good to you so far. Alternatively, if life hasn't been good to you so far, which given your present circumstances seems to be more likely, consider yourself lucky that it won't be troubling you much longer...

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post #376 of 380 Old 05-16-2017, 12:09 PM
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I would think that the new TI chip could easily produce an excellent quality picture with great black levels. given that the mirrors on the chip are either on or off.
The problem is that when the mirrors are in the off position too much light still reflects off them and the area around them on the chip toward the lens. If they were able to block effectively 99.9% of the light that would still result in just 1000:1 on/off CR, which is very poor. The smaller the mirrors are the lower the fill ratio in general. It is more of a challenge to get high on/off CR with smaller chips than bigger chips in general and adding more mirrors to the same size chip also tends to push things toward lower fill ratio and lower on/off CR.

These are some reasons that HT DLPs have gone backwards for on/off CR compared to 10 years ago.

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post #377 of 380 Old 06-29-2017, 01:06 AM
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I watched the demo both of Benq W11000 and Acer V9800 a month ago, the dealer told me that they are same design by Benq actually. But the image projected by them are quite difference. I would say Benq provides very clean UHD image like Sony does and Acer V988 (with or without HDR) like JVC provides film like image.
Where did you demo these?

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post #378 of 380 Old 06-29-2017, 03:04 AM
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Yikes. Well I'm sure the Epson will go on sale again. Hate to say it but I think everyone is super curious about the Optoma but I don't think anyone seriously expects it's picture quality to match up to the Epson 5040. Especially considering the BenQ 8050 doesn't really compete with the 5040/6040 and it's three times the price! .
This is a poor comparison. The BenQ Ht8050 was the very very first 4k dlp ever released (in 2016) and was measured at 600:1 contrast, was a 1st gen product with issues.

The Optoma UHD65 was measured at near 1500:1 contrast, over double the BenQ. And the dynamic contrast is less intrusive than the BenQ. So the UHD65 soundly beats the BenQ in the categories related to contrast, though BenQ has a nicer chassis and lens.

If I was in the market for a projector in this price range right now I'd buy the UHD65 without hesitation. The 5040UB does have a bit better contrast, but not enough to warrant the 5040's much lower resolution output, more noticable chroma artifacts, much worse motion resolution, and issues with dust settling on LCD panels you can't clean. The Optoma in the big picture clearly beats the Epson, you have to move into LCOS to look for a more worthy UHD65 challenger IMO.
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post #379 of 380 Old 06-30-2017, 12:25 AM
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Where did you demo these?
a Home Theater Shop

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post #380 of 380 Old 06-30-2017, 12:58 AM
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a Home Theater Shop
I was hoping for a name and location for the shop

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