Optoma UHD60 4K HDR Projector at CES 2017 - Page 8 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 171Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #211 of 380 Old 02-08-2017, 06:26 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
action_jackson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,206
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 353 Post(s)
Liked: 135
@RLBURNSIDE
I read through the posts in that link the best I could with google translate, thanks for the link. For some reason there were a bunch of blocks covering part of the text wanting me to share the content, but from what I gathered it seems that the speckle was most noticeable on clear backgrounds. I've read that with static images the speckle is more noticeable and the distance from the screen plays a part as well.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Epson Home Cinema 3010 Projector____Paradigm 9SE MK II Main LR
Yamaha RX-V667 AVR_______________Paradigm CC-270 V.3 Center
Emotiva UPA-5 Amplifier______________Dual Stereo Integrity 18" Infinite Baffle
Sony BDP-570 Blu Ray_______________DIY Sound Group Volt 10
action_jackson is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #212 of 380 Old 02-09-2017, 01:44 AM
Senior Member
 
AndreNewman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 224
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 116 Post(s)
Liked: 69
Ok here are my notes from ISE yesterday on the Optoma UHD60&65, 3G & wifi were unusable at the airport yesterday...

The demo area was bright and a small screen <90" as seems usual for Optoma so I have no idea about black level and lens clarity. It was however much better than the Viewsonic demo which had another projector shining across the screen raising black level!

So most importantly for me I didn't see any unpleasant motion artefacts on any of the many 4k DLPs I saw, there is some indistinct movement when you are inches away but it's no more unpleasant than the DLP dithering, it's not possible to see individual pixels even close up but don't forget the Optoma screen was maybe 80". With Optoma the whole stand was shaking as people walk around so it was difficult to see focus well. The demo material was the usual BBC Planet Earth II frog & snake video, at least it was moving, Casio only had a still slideshow.

I have worked in sport TV engineering for 29 years so I am very sensitive to motion issues in TV signals and display technology, consequently I'm unable to watch LCD TVs without feeling ill, this is why I take a special interest in DLP.

I was told by Optoma that it's not possible to switch off the wobulation on the UHD60,&65, Acer & BenQ showed me the pictures in silent mode (wobulation off, maybe some different firmware choices) where you can see the individual pixels and yes they are square btw. I didn't see any change to motion rendering with wobulation on or off but all demo material was 24p so maybe it would be obvious at 50p or 60p, I think I would want the option to turn it off just in case. there was a mention (not from Optoma) that on larger screens the wobulation was easier to see.


All the vendors I spoke to told me the TI 4K DLP chipset does not support 3D or any 120Hz modes. The optical wobulator element works at 120Hz or 150Hz for 25 & 50fps, this info was a little different from each vendor so not really definitive yet. I was interested to know if that modulation was double frame rate or something much higher, perhaps this prevents 3D or 120Hz video but maybe they just didn't bother.

In all of the demos I looked for rainbows and it was very difficult or impossible to trigger this, I had varying explanations of colour wheel equivalent speed and none from Optoma but it sounded like this was a fixed thing in the initial DLP chipset so depending on explanation either 6x at 24p or 4x at 30p one even suggested 5x at 25p but I'm not sure that's possible or I misunderstood. Either way all of them seemed better than my last two DLPs, Optoma HD80 & HD30.

The UHD65 will be launched at the same June/July time as the UHD60 but the primary (only?) difference will be an RGBRGB colour wheel, the UHD60 has a RGBYCM higher brightness wheel. The 60 will be ~£2500 the 65 ~£3000. Both will be REC709 colour, when fed with 2020 colour space the projector will down convert to 709, HDR support will be on/off no more info and this was not demoed. I wasn't able to make any menu adjustments with Optoma, others were more accommodating.

In almost all cases I was very lucky to find a friendly chatty engineer who wanted to explain how this new technology works, so I think I learned a lot about the new DLP.

Everyone talked about another new 4k Ti DLP chip coming later this year this is a smaller, cheaper chip, everyone accepted that the contrast will be worse so I expect there will be a lot of cheap 4k DLPs in a few years time but with terrible home cinema performance, great for spreadsheets though.

[email protected] &60hz will be max 10bit at 4:2:2, 4:4:4 is not going to be possible with this projector. One of the vendors said they have a 18Gb HDMI chip but the Ti chipset didn't permit 4:4:4 at 50 or 60Hz. From the vendors who understood the question, it doesn't seem it's going to be possible to drive the input at the native mirror resolution, shame that might a handy feature, maybe I planted the seed of an idea in some of the engineers minds. The BenQ guy at least wanted to stay in touch and discuss developments that might be relevant to sports TV.

I asked about CIH, Optoma said all their projectors support stretching for anamorphic lenses but didn't really understand about using zoom for CIH. Zoom ratio is 1.6 so it might be possible (need 1.5 min) but there is a minimum lens offset (can't go to zero) and not much vertical adjustment so it might depend on screen distance and offset.

There is also a ZH55 model being launched but I didn't see a demo, static model only and I didn't get told any details.

So this is what I discovered, there's more from the other vendors I saw, Casio, Viewsonic, Acer, BenQ, I wasn't able to compare with Epson, Sony or JVC as they didn't have any Home Cinema projectors on demo I did see the JVC Z1 demo.

Acer had a small living room style 4k projector on demo too, VHE7850 (I think, translation was difficult) which actually looked brighter and better contrast than the V9800 along side, who knows really it's a trade show demo in a bright room. Few details and no price yet, might be a low price alternative to watch for if the Optoma doesn't live up to expectations when it gets released and properly reviewed.

Andre
AndreNewman is online now  
post #213 of 380 Old 02-09-2017, 05:59 AM
 
RLBURNSIDE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,901
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2012 Post(s)
Liked: 1406
Thanks a lot for your thoughts Andre.

Did you see the laser speckle that the french HT guys were talking about?

It may be possible to drive any of these new TI chips at 120hz, I'm trying to get confirmation from TI on that. Basically, the idea is to just pack two successive frames into one, similar to SBS or O/U 3D modes, but interleaving the pixels from alternate frames in a pattern such that, when wobulation is activated, the pixels meant for the first frame, and only the first frame, get shown first, then those for the second, etc. Of course this only has a chance of working in 444 / RGB mode so we can forget HDR 120hz unfortunately.

I believe the inability to do 444 + 10-bit at the same time isn't in the chip itself but the HDMI 2.0 standard, so in theory if HDMI 2.1 versions of these DLPs come out we could eventually see 444 10-bit (or greater, hopefully).

Unfortunately, no 3D on these Optomas means no purchase for me. And TI told me directly that supporting 3D on the new 4K wobulation DMDs is up to the manufacturer to implement it, the chips themselves can do it. I mean, they could just do exactly what I just said to achieve it: draw the left eye then the right eye using the exact same process as they draw the first 4 million pixels then the second 4 million pixels discretely. Any 1080p 3D inputs (or any incoming resolution other than native) have to be scaled internally to the chip's native DMD resolution anyway, as do all displays.
DougGm1 likes this.
RLBURNSIDE is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #214 of 380 Old 02-09-2017, 08:35 AM
Senior Member
 
AndreNewman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 224
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 116 Post(s)
Liked: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
Let us know if you saw the 1080p laser models too, I'm itching to find out if the ZH55 actually supports HDR10 or not.

If so, I think I may be able to live with 1080p for another few years, but I want HDR and WCG (I can add that myself via filters). If the projector can consume UHD video from HDMI inputs, and downscale to 1080p internally that would also be great.
I didn't see the ZH55, they talked about it but only a static model.
AndreNewman is online now  
post #215 of 380 Old 02-09-2017, 08:45 AM
Senior Member
 
AndreNewman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 224
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 116 Post(s)
Liked: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
Thanks a lot for your thoughts Andre.

Did you see the laser speckle that the french HT guys were talking about?

It may be possible to drive any of these new TI chips at 120hz, I'm trying to get confirmation from TI on that. Basically, the idea is to just pack two successive frames into one, similar to SBS or O/U 3D modes, but interleaving the pixels from alternate frames in a pattern such that, when wobulation is activated, the pixels meant for the first frame, and only the first frame, get shown first, then those for the second, etc. Of course this only has a chance of working in 444 / RGB mode so we can forget HDR 120hz unfortunately.

I believe the inability to do 444 + 10-bit at the same time isn't in the chip itself but the HDMI 2.0 standard, so in theory if HDMI 2.1 versions of these DLPs come out we could eventually see 444 10-bit (or greater, hopefully).
Only the to be announced Acer (Not 9800), and the Casio were laser projectors, the UHD60 & 65 are lamp projectors, the X12000 is LED.

I saw some speckle on the UHD60 demo but I expect that was due to a high gain screen, I doubt very much that I would have been able to see that level of detail on a moderately lit demo stand anyway.

If it's any interest for the future the BenQ guy got very interested in my questions on 120Hz operation and was doing calculations while we spoke. I think everyone has reference designs with the standard Ti driver chips but in time there may be more variations as vendors understand the capabilities better.

Andre
RLBURNSIDE likes this.
AndreNewman is online now  
post #216 of 380 Old 02-09-2017, 09:13 AM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 522
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 253 Post(s)
Liked: 194
Wow, thank you for posting your impressions of the optoma! cool to hear there will be two models.
[email protected] &60hz will be max 10bit at 4:2:2 that kind of video input has me extra excited!! can't wait. thank you!
am2model3 is offline  
post #217 of 380 Old 02-09-2017, 10:47 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreNewman View Post
Both will be REC709 colour, when fed with 2020 colour space the projector will down convert to 709
a bit confused here - rec.709 is SDR, so they are going to downconvert HDR and display it somehow with SDR colors? not make sense
elRaid is offline  
post #218 of 380 Old 02-09-2017, 10:55 AM
 
RLBURNSIDE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,901
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2012 Post(s)
Liked: 1406
Quote:
Originally Posted by elRaid View Post
a bit confused here - rec.709 is SDR, so they are going to downconvert HDR and display it somehow with SDR colors? not make sense
They probably mean just downconvert the colour gamut to the 709 primaries but keep HDR / PQ / St 2084 active. Lots of projectors doing that.
Troy LaMont likes this.
RLBURNSIDE is offline  
post #219 of 380 Old 02-09-2017, 11:04 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
They probably mean just downconvert the colour gamut to the 709 primaries but keep HDR / PQ / St 2084 active. Lots of projectors doing that.
i thought HDR itself implies a wider color range, apparently i was wrong
so basically HDR here means better contrast and less color banding only?
elRaid is offline  
post #220 of 380 Old 02-09-2017, 11:14 AM
 
RLBURNSIDE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,901
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2012 Post(s)
Liked: 1406
Colour volume is three-dimensional. HDR increases colour volume in one axis, wider colour gamut increases it in the other two. Higher * Wider = Larger volume. Both are important. But the increase from HDR10 over SDR is 10x, and the increase from rec 709 to rec 2020 is 2x. Much more important to get HDR before WCG, although reaching P3 is quite easy even with lamps and colour filters.

The JVC models only lose 12% of their lumens to go from rec 709 to P3 via a filter, compared to the Epsons which lose like 50% for some unknown, crazy reason. I have the Epson CF filter which I'm gonna try out this weekend. Costs 20 bucks to expand from 709 to P3. Of course if it cuts lumens in half I'll likely only use it briefly while my new lamp is still fresh.
RLBURNSIDE is offline  
post #221 of 380 Old 02-09-2017, 11:29 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 54
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 15
I agree about the 709 being a HD standard and not a 4K HDR standard. The projector makers seem to be just using HDR as a marketing term rather than actually implementing an official standard HDR color gamut.

I fail to see how you can separate HDR and color gamut, Also as far as I can see we don't have the lumens for decent HDR yet. (think it needs over 6K at any decently sized screen)

Thanks to AndreNewman for the great in depth gathering of information.
One question is can these devices be updated via firmware installs to support TI Chip feature-sets post launch like 3D or a higher Hz rate?. According to TI the chip supports these but none of the PJ makers are including these features (at least not at release time).

Last edited by zoro25; 02-09-2017 at 02:17 PM.
zoro25 is offline  
post #222 of 380 Old 02-09-2017, 12:38 PM
Member
 
paul623's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 108
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Hi UHD 60
Do we know if it will have a power zoom preferably with memory?

Paul

Epson 9300 (5040 in the US)
Samsung UE65KS7500 65" 4k tv
oppo BD 203 ,MR DVD + BD ,
Onkyo TX-RZ810, BT YouView box 10 ft 21.35 screen
paul623 is offline  
post #223 of 380 Old 02-09-2017, 12:43 PM
Advanced Member
 
ZenithPete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 522
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 78 Post(s)
Liked: 78
The no 3d is bad news.............thinking about putting an 80 inch 2015-2016 4K 3d tv in storage before there are no 4k 3d options left for the home.
ZenithPete is offline  
post #224 of 380 Old 02-09-2017, 04:57 PM
 
RLBURNSIDE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,901
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2012 Post(s)
Liked: 1406
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoro25 View Post
I agree about the 709 being a HD standard and not a 4K HDR standard. The projector makers seem to be just using HDR as a marketing term rather than actually implementing an official standard HDR color gamut.

I fail to see how you can separate HDR and color gamut, Also as far as I can see we don't have the lumens for decent HDR yet. (think it needs over 6K at any decently sized screen)
HDR isn't a colour gamut. Dynamic range is an orthogonal specification to colour gamut, meaning has absolutely nothing to do with each other. You could have HDR in black and white if you wanted to. Colour volume, yes, that depends on dynamic range (HDR vs SDR) multiplied by colout gamut, but one can easily have HDR with rec 709 primaries or SDR with P3 or even rec 2020 primaries. In fact several projectors do in fact do exactly that, as numerous Epsons have supported P3 for years via a colour filter, despite having no real P3 mastered content to show until UHD Blurays came out.

In terms of lumens required for HDR, dynamic range is a continuum, and you can take a 0-1000 nits input signal and tone map it down (compress its dynamic range) into SDR which is 0-100 nits, or you can do something in between like 400 nits or 600 or 800 nits. Every bit counts. Don't make perfect the enemy of good. LG OLEDs couldn't even pass 600 nits until this year and still provide astonishingly good HDR compared to SDR. Even my dirt cheap w1070 can do 200 nits at smaller screen sizes which means, if I'm displaying a 100 nits SDR signal, that it's actually expanding dynamic range artificially using a linear multiplier which washes out the image. This is bad.

Any HDR is better than SDR, even for SDR televisions and projectors. You just have to tone map it appropriately. I've worked on dozens of videogames and they are ALL rendered in HDR internally prior to tone mapping. But HDR video signals allow the TV to do the tone mapping instead of using lower common denominator of 100 nits, which has been surpassed by 3-4x for at least ten years now. And even in projectors capable of only 150 nits it would be better to feed them with 1000 nits video data if you can, and tone map it down to 150 instead of 100 nits. Every little bit counts.

Again, let's not make perfect the enemy of good. It's okay to not be perfect so long as you're improving bit by bit, in other words.
Davyhulme likes this.
RLBURNSIDE is offline  
post #225 of 380 Old 02-10-2017, 12:24 AM
Senior Member
 
AndreNewman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 224
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 116 Post(s)
Liked: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by paul623 View Post
Hi UHD 60
Do we know if it will have a power zoom preferably with memory?

Paul
Nope, sadly.

Never likely at that price, even the BenQ W11000 & X12000 doesn't have lens motors.
AndreNewman is online now  
post #226 of 380 Old 02-10-2017, 01:15 AM
Member
 
paul623's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 108
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreNewman View Post
Nope, sadly.

Never likely at that price, even the BenQ W11000 & X12000 doesn't have lens motors.
My own feelings regarding the relative low price, unfortunately makes it no go for me I just love my 21.35 screen (unless it has some trick up its sleeve)

Paul

Epson 9300 (5040 in the US)
Samsung UE65KS7500 65" 4k tv
oppo BD 203 ,MR DVD + BD ,
Onkyo TX-RZ810, BT YouView box 10 ft 21.35 screen
paul623 is offline  
post #227 of 380 Old 02-10-2017, 01:37 AM
Senior Member
 
AndreNewman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 224
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 116 Post(s)
Liked: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by paul623 View Post
My own feelings regarding the relative low price, unfortunately makes it no go for me I just love my 21.35 screen (unless it has some trick up its sleeve)

Paul
Well I did ask them about zooming for CIH & 2.35:1 screens, initially they didn't understand the question so spent some time telling me that all their projectors support vertical stretch for anamorphic lenses! After some arm waving I think they sort of got it, there should be enough zoom ratio, it's 1.6 and you need minimum 1.5 but there is a fixed minimum offset (don't have any numbers) like all the cheaper DLPs and while there is some lens shift it's not much so may not be enough to re-align a zoomed image to a fixed screen. I didn't think to show them on the demo projector but I doubt they would have let me.

I like the solution that BenQ have, the lens tracks focus with zoom, I suggested that means they only need to add one lens motor for CIH people. Of course the BenQ W11000 is a whole other level (or three) of cost and space and weight!

I think if you are sufficiently serious enough to have a 2.35:1 screen you need to afford a serious enough projector! A DLP version of the Epson LS10500 would be ideal for me.
AndreNewman is online now  
post #228 of 380 Old 02-10-2017, 01:59 AM
Member
 
paul623's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 108
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreNewman View Post
Well I did ask them about zooming for CIH & 2.35:1 screens, initially they didn't understand the question so spent some time telling me that all their projectors support vertical stretch for anamorphic lenses! After some arm waving I think they sort of got it, there should be enough zoom ratio, it's 1.6 and you need minimum 1.5 but there is a fixed minimum offset (don't have any numbers) like all the cheaper DLPs and while there is some lens shift it's not much so may not be enough to re-align a zoomed image to a fixed screen. I didn't think to show them on the demo projector but I doubt they would have let me.

I like the solution that BenQ have, the lens tracks focus with zoom, I suggested that means they only need to add one lens motor for CIH people. Of course the BenQ W11000 is a whole other level (or three) of cost and space and weight!

I think if you are sufficiently serious enough to have a 2.35:1 screen you need to afford a serious enough projector! A DLP version of the Epson LS10500 would be ideal for me.
Many thanks for your reply, I have gotten so use to the super ratio switching on my Pana 6000.
Would find it hard to live without!
Yes I agree about budgeting for a higher spec, think it a bit short sighted given early adopters tend to be enthusiasts I would happily pay 25% more for power zoom!
Paul

Epson 9300 (5040 in the US)
Samsung UE65KS7500 65" 4k tv
oppo BD 203 ,MR DVD + BD ,
Onkyo TX-RZ810, BT YouView box 10 ft 21.35 screen
paul623 is offline  
post #229 of 380 Old 02-10-2017, 02:16 AM
Senior Member
 
AndreNewman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 224
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 116 Post(s)
Liked: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by paul623 View Post
Many thanks for your reply, I have gotten so use to the super ratio switching on my Pana 6000.
Would find it hard to live without!
Yes I agree about budgeting for a higher spec, think it a bit short sighted given early adopters tend to be enthusiasts I would happily pay 25% more for power zoom!
Paul
Power zoom is not enough though unless you have a cinema design lens (focus tracks with zoom), with cheap lenses you also need power focus, power shift, then that means you need lens memories, which then means you need better lens mechanics so that the memories don't need adjusting all the time. Now the lens is going to cost more than any of Optoma's budget home cinema projectors.

I'm happy enough to manually adjust zoom and focus when a 2.35:1 movie is played but I don't have a fixed screen so offset changes are not a problem. The current projector was always a cheap stopgap until decent brightness LED or (speckle free) Laser with good enough contrast was available. I don't really care about 4k resolution other than for my photography but WCG & 10 bit is interesting.

My next projector has to do CIH properly and reasonable contrast but I'm stuck on DLPs due to my aversion to motion artefacts.
AndreNewman is online now  
post #230 of 380 Old 02-10-2017, 06:28 AM
 
RLBURNSIDE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,901
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2012 Post(s)
Liked: 1406
There's also the new 4K Acer model which does both HDR and WCG:

http://www.projection-homecinema.fr/...dr10-rec-2020/

Did AVS people officially go there? I hope we get some ISE feedback soon.

I mean, the projection site is great and all but there was next to no info there other than "speckle is bad" and UHD65 is FI + black UHD60 which is hardly big news. I don't even think we got 100% confirmation that none of these 4K DLPs will support 3D despite the fact that TI says the chip absolutely can.

Also no confirmation from anyone about whether the ZH55 actually supports HDR10 and thus internally downscales UHD content or if that was all a mirage. I'd like to see AVS' comments on these issues like 3D support and HDR at 1080p. (I also don't care about 4K that much, especially if the contrast is even worse than my five-year old w1070).

TBH at this point I'm thinking of picking up a pair of used 3LCD Epsons and hacking them together for mega contrast, do all the tone mapping myself on my PC, and skip wasting many thousands of dollars on half-baked products. Lack of WCG is totally absurd considering the low cost and high lumens of these Optoma DLPs (3000 lumens is plenty to spare for WCG filters at least).
RLBURNSIDE is offline  
post #231 of 380 Old 02-11-2017, 07:13 AM
 
RLBURNSIDE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,901
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2012 Post(s)
Liked: 1406
I wrote a proof of concept shader to test if we can in fact individually map input pixels 1:1 to on these new TI chips w/o blurring any together:

https://www.shadertoy.com/view/lslcRr

This would allow us (let's be frank here: me) to write a DX wrapper to allow games to render at the native DMD resolution at 120 fps, or do stereo 3D on any of these projectors, and achieve 1:1 input mapping so long as the input processing is defeatable or at least doesn't blur sub-frames together. If they can indeed display 8M individual pixels then this idea should work.

If we offset the samples in odd frames to compensate for the diagonal offset due to wobulation, then it should yield a sharper image. It's also potentially possible to defeat wobulation by activating "silent mode".

Although, actually, come to think of it, leaving on wobulation regardless is smart: because 120 fps is 2X beyond the flicker fusion of our eyes, and because
our eyes jump around to sample the world at slightly different angles to do "temporal supersampling" via ocular microtremours, we can get both 120 fps AND true 4K using the same technique. It would be similar to interlaced: when the image is static: you get true 4K, 1:1, when it's dynamic, you get 2.6k static
resolution but 120fps temporally. Very good tradeoff, and dynamic one. Best of both worlds I think (besides true 4K doesn't matter as much when things are moving rapidly).

120 fps could also open up stuff like faux-HDR (we need RGB or 444 for my hack to work) using temporal dithering, and of course the temporal jitter from the wobulation is actually a feature.

You could also use this in theory to get 10-bit 444 at 60fps if that matters to you, by inputting 2160p30 to the projector using this technique to bring it up to 2160p60.

Or, even better, thanks to @nintendomaniac 's idea, output a 2160p50 HDR10 in 444 / RGB signal since that should fall within the limits of 18gbps HDMI 2.0a. And then you get true 444, HDR10, at 100 hz (instead of 120). WIN!!

This is of course assuming RGB 10-bit (or YCbCr 444 10-bit) is indeed supported at 50hz on any of these projectors.

Last edited by RLBURNSIDE; 02-11-2017 at 08:06 AM.
RLBURNSIDE is offline  
post #232 of 380 Old 02-11-2017, 08:40 AM
 
RLBURNSIDE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,901
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2012 Post(s)
Liked: 1406
According to this page:

https://translate.googleusercontent....So5DycdO-gRRkQ

The UHD65 has 3D while the UHD60 doesn't.

It also says it has DCI colour space, but I'll believe it when I see it. If is has both WCG and 3D and FI, this is suddenly back onto my list. (with JVC in contention, depends on deals).
Brajesh, DougGm1 and Mrjmc99 like this.

Last edited by RLBURNSIDE; 02-11-2017 at 08:59 AM.
RLBURNSIDE is offline  
post #233 of 380 Old 02-12-2017, 01:02 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
donaldk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,153
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 608 Post(s)
Liked: 174
I was told the 65 already a msrp (€2500), the 60 doesn't yet, so in Europe the 65 with white segnent in colorwheel should come first. Sorry didn't see the questions, so didn't ask those. The German links says the opposite. You always get conflicting info at tradeshows

Last edited by donaldk; 02-12-2017 at 01:06 AM.
donaldk is offline  
post #234 of 380 Old 02-12-2017, 10:19 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
According to this page:

The UHD65 has 3D while the UHD60 doesn't.

It also says it has DCI colour space, but I'll believe it when I see it. If is has both WCG and 3D and FI, this is suddenly back onto my list. (with JVC in contention, depends on deals).
Agree completely - if the price & features are accurate, the UHD65 is at the top of my short-list for new projector.

2017 is turning out to be a very interesting year for 4K/projectors.
DougGm1 is offline  
post #235 of 380 Old 02-14-2017, 03:57 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
donaldk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,153
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 608 Post(s)
Liked: 174
Andre looks like the UK is getting a bad deal on the MSRP, as I was told the 60 had an MSRP of €2499.-, supposedly the MSRP on the 65 was yet to be set, 200-300 difference was what I was told, doubted that usually it is more, and reports from Germany suggest €3000 msrp.

When I dropped by the Acer booth I thought the 9800 did look better, more saturated and thus more contrasty. Except for the bottom half that seems to have ambient light issue.

Casio has come a very long way and was the surprise of the show, price-performance wise. Of course final product needs to be reviewed with videocontent.
donaldk is offline  
post #236 of 380 Old 02-14-2017, 07:37 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
elmalloc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 4,963
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 186 Post(s)
Liked: 112
These guys!?!?

Mrjmc99 likes this.

IN PROGRESS - Outdoor Theater:
Epson G7500U, Carl's Place CIH 21ft wide x 9ft screen

Game room:
Epson 5040UBE, Denon S920W, Philips BDP7501, NVidia Shield TV, PS4 Pro, SI 110"
elmalloc is offline  
post #237 of 380 Old 02-15-2017, 02:50 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
action_jackson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,206
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 353 Post(s)
Liked: 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by elmalloc View Post
These guys!?!?





And these guys!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
mastermaybe likes this.

Epson Home Cinema 3010 Projector____Paradigm 9SE MK II Main LR
Yamaha RX-V667 AVR_______________Paradigm CC-270 V.3 Center
Emotiva UPA-5 Amplifier______________Dual Stereo Integrity 18" Infinite Baffle
Sony BDP-570 Blu Ray_______________DIY Sound Group Volt 10
action_jackson is offline  
post #238 of 380 Old 02-23-2017, 07:53 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
mastermaybe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 7,833
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 552 Post(s)
Liked: 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by action_jackson View Post
And these guys!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
beautiful post.

James
action_jackson likes this.

My Parlor and Theatre: "Jimbo's Dugout" : https://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-gen...re-parlor.html

Actual phone call (see pic to left):
 Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"
Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."
mastermaybe is offline  
post #239 of 380 Old 02-23-2017, 02:09 PM
Member
 
scottphillips88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 74
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Bookmarked this page. Looks like the HD20 could be replaced by the UHD60. Can't wait for more info and reviews. I noticed that Optoma's Facebook page posted about the 60 today for the first time. (This is what caught my attention, I missed CES this year.)
scottphillips88 is offline  
post #240 of 380 Old 02-24-2017, 09:51 PM
Member
 
reechings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 111
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked: 16
I'm guessing resolution upscaling isn't a feature? Always seems to be something that TVs have but PJs usually don't.
reechings is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Digital Projectors - Under $3,000 USD MSRP

Tags
ces 2017 , hdr , Optoma , uhd60

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off