Optoma UHD60 & UHD65 4K/UHD HDR DLP Projectors Now Available - Page 49 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1441 of 2014 Old 07-20-2017, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Just got a response back from TI about this .67' XPR DMD and associated controller:



So it looks like 3:2 pulldown is the only way to do 24p with this current controller and DMD. That's another knock against DLP as we move forward.
Seems to suggest it can handle PAL signals just fine as well, contrary to that German review?
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post #1442 of 2014 Old 07-20-2017, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Just got a response back from TI about this .67' XPR DMD and associated controller:



So it looks like 3:2 pulldown is the only way to do 24p with this current controller and DMD. That's another knock against DLP as we move forward.
Some don't feel 3:2 pulldown is a big deal. In fact, this Projector Central writer prefers 3:2 judder over 24p judder:
http://www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htm

It is a less purist view, but worth considering. I personally would prefer having the straight 24p option but it wouldn't be a deal-killer for me.
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post #1443 of 2014 Old 07-20-2017, 02:22 PM
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Seems to suggest it can handle PAL signals just fine as well, contrary to that German review?
According to that response, should be:

24fps = 3:2
25fps = 2:2
60fps = 1:1
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post #1444 of 2014 Old 07-20-2017, 02:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
Some don't feel 3:2 pulldown is a big deal. In fact, this Projector Central writer prefers 3:2 judder over 24p judder:
http://www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htm

It is a less purist view, but worth considering. I personally would prefer having the straight 24p option but it wouldn't be a deal-killer for me.
So watching the content will added judder is preferable because one person says they like it? I thought your whole thing was to create a "cinema-like experience". How can you do that when you don't have proper cadence?

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post #1445 of 2014 Old 07-20-2017, 02:35 PM
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Do you have a better source you can try like a UHD Blu-ray?

It is possible it is just poor quality source.

Otherwise that is not normal.
The first two images are from the UHD bluray
I'm assuming you purchased the UHD disc, so you should have received the standard Blu-ray as well? How does a standard pray version of the Martian look?

-T
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post #1446 of 2014 Old 07-20-2017, 02:37 PM
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So watching the content will added judder is preferable because one person says they like it? I thought your whole thing was to create a "cinema-like experience". How can you do that when you don't have proper cadence?
The cinema experience doesn't have motion blur/image persistence between frames either like non-DLP techs have, so in this respect for motion neither is perfect.
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post #1447 of 2014 Old 07-20-2017, 02:38 PM
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Monoprice 4k 60hz certified cables to the AV receiver from each source, Amazon basics 25' 4k thick-as-a-brick cable from receiver to projector.

Worth noting my projector is incapable of displaying 4:4:4 60hz 4k from a PC even on a direct line 6' cable which is what I first tried before I ceiling mounted it and gave up on that.
25' is pushing for non fiber HDMI. Can you run that cable right from the source?
Perhaps... But I just ordered a 40 foot passive non-fiber that seems to work at 18 Gbs.

See post 233 here:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2834097

-T
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post #1448 of 2014 Old 07-20-2017, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
I'm assuming you purchased the UHD disc, so you should have received the standard Blu-ray as well? How does a standard pray version of the Martian look?

-T
Sold the oldschool bluray via ebay as soon as I got the discs so it's hard to say. It's not just the martian that does this though, just the film I chose for the pictures. I watched episode 2 of Man in the High Castle this-morning via Amazon streaming and banding that was just as noticeable as on the Martian UHD being ever-present in blue-ish/dark scenes in this case. After the last month of infrequent time to try and isolate a cause for this I finally called Optoma, I'm waiting for them to call me back now. The lady said this isn't something they are hearing reports of so I dunno.

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post #1449 of 2014 Old 07-20-2017, 03:18 PM
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The cinema experience doesn't have motion blur/image persistence between frames either like non-DLP techs have ...
They last time I recorded a JVC projector with a 1000 fps camera, they were changing things very quickly according to the video. This was before eShift I believe, but they had 8 different levels for each 24 Hz frame, IIRC. There were 4 black and 4 non-black. I doubt image persistence between frames is really an issue with the JVCs based on those recordings that showed they could switch fast inside frames.

Also, seems like you preclude a lot of stuff from your "cinema experience". You seem to preclude any Sony projectors, and any HDR projectors. Just SDR DLP projectors, and not even 4K from the looks of it, since I don't believe the 4K digital cinema projectors deliver 2K:1 on/off CR (other than maybe some limited laser units like the Cinerama in Seattle), unless they improved that from the first deliveries of those projectors.

SDR 1080p cinema projectors seems like a bad thing to try to emulate as far as performance in 2017.

--Darin

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post #1450 of 2014 Old 07-20-2017, 03:26 PM
 
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The cinema experience doesn't have motion blur/image persistence between frames either like non-DLP techs have, so in this respect for motion neither is perfect.
A small amount of added blur is much preferable to an image that judders during pans. With 24p, there is a very real limit to how much resolution you can capture in motion. LCoS technologies from Epson, Sony and JVC have fast enough response time so that extremely small amounts of blur is added between frames. There have been many people who've done this comparison against a high end DLP projector and have come away finding that their new LCoS projector look remarkably good when it comes to 24p playback and motion. @stanger89 has done this comparison against his beloved Planar PD8150 and was surprised at how well his RS600 performed. He was expecting it to look quite different. Ruined, let me know what you think when you actually compare these projectors in person.
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post #1451 of 2014 Old 07-20-2017, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
A small amount of added blur is much preferable to an image that judders during pans. With 24p, there is a very real limit to how much resolution you can capture in motion. LCoS technologies from Epson, Sony and JVC have fast enough response time so that extremely small amounts of blur is added between frames. There have been many people who've done this comparison against a high end DLP projector and have come away finding that their new LCoS projector look remarkably good when it comes to 24p playback and motion. @stanger89 has done this comparison against his beloved Planar PD8150 and was surprised at how well his RS600 performed. He was expecting it to look quite different. Ruined, let me know what you think when you actually compare these projectors in person.
24p is going to judder during pans, too. It is just a different type of judder.
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post #1452 of 2014 Old 07-20-2017, 03:40 PM
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24p is going to judder during pans, too. It is just a different type of judder.
It is the kind of judder you get in commercial theaters. You claimed more than once that you were trying to match commercial theaters (and clearly SDR commercial theater based on your claims).

Were you not really telling the truth at that time? In other posts you seem to make it clear you are not actually trying to match those commercial theaters. Which is it? You can't both be trying to match them and not match them.

--Darin
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post #1453 of 2014 Old 07-20-2017, 03:55 PM
 
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24p is going to judder during pans, too. It is just a different type of judder.
The difference is that one is found in the source and the other is not.
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post #1454 of 2014 Old 07-20-2017, 05:37 PM
 
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Why does that matter? Judder is judder, regardless of the source. Do you not go to the hospital if you had an accident but only if injured by an assailant?

Being OK with one type of judder vs another "because....X" is pure double-think. Either you're OK with judder or you're not.
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post #1455 of 2014 Old 07-20-2017, 05:48 PM
 
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Why does that matter? Judder is judder, regardless of the source. Do you not go to the hospital if you had an accident but only if injured by an assailant?

Being OK with one type of judder vs another "because....X" is pure double-think. Either you're OK with judder or you're not.
I'm fine with judder if it happens to be in the source. The huge difference is that one is adding an artifact to the source and the other is faithfully representing what's in the source, be that judder or smooth pans. I would like to be able to faithfully represent the source material as it should be shown. With XPR I don't have that option. If judder in the source is THAT bad and on most films there's not a whole lot of source related judder, I could always enable frame interpolation. Again, with XPR models I don't have the options to do this. 3:2 pulldown judder happens a lot more often than source related judder. If that wasn't the case then manufacturers wouldn't have put so much effort into creating proper pulldown modes to playback film content. You guys are acting like it's okay that XPR is adding artifacts to the source. It honestly feels like XPR was created purely for business and commercial installs. Everything from poor native contrast to poor motion performance screams a complete lack of home theater mindfulness when it came to creating this new DMD and controller.

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post #1456 of 2014 Old 07-20-2017, 06:20 PM
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Has anyone confirmed rather or not these new DLP's handle motion resolution better than the LCD and LCoS technology like their 1080 brethren?

What resolution are we seeing when a 60hz 4K source is played? How much of the resolution is being resolved? I'd love to see some hard numbers between this DLP chip and Sony\Epson\JVC.
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post #1457 of 2014 Old 07-20-2017, 06:26 PM
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Has anyone confirmed rather or not these new DLP's handle motion resolution better than the LCD and LCoS technology like their 1080 brethren?
I don't know about the Optomas, but when I saw the $9k BenQ we saw some motion issues. The edges of the trees during some pans in The Revenant looked a little off, but the only other projector we had working in the same room was the $35k native 4K JVC. We also saw some banding in different areas of John Wick 2.

We tried to compare to a JVC that is over 5 years old, but we had some problems getting it to sync with the equipment. When I tried it at home later on a completely different screen the motion during the pan I looked at in The Revenant didn't look that good on the RS45 either, whether I used frame interpolation or not.

I was hoping we could compare the whole package with the BenQ. The BenQ had horrible looking blacks over all and the JVC that probably isn't worth much more than $1k at this point would have decimated it there, but overall it would have been interesting to see.

Unless they have a good dynamic system for on/off CR then these XPR projectors are likely to have blacks that are quite a bit worse than the Sharp 11k/12k I had in 2004, at least in the high contrast mode I used with it most of the time.

--Darin
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post #1458 of 2014 Old 07-20-2017, 06:58 PM
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https://youtu.be/My8VUDBMaTY Optoma posted a video about their laser. The uhz model may not improve things as much for brightness(a little) and wcg as more of a 20,000 lampless option. Video stresses 99% of rec 709
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post #1459 of 2014 Old 07-20-2017, 07:09 PM
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Your cable? I get 4:4:4 4k 60 8bit from my pc.
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post #1460 of 2014 Old 07-20-2017, 07:23 PM
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Video stresses 99% of rec 709
Sorry. I can't check the video right now. Are you sure that is REC.709 and not P3? 99% of REC.709 wouldn't be something to really brag about when most 4K material (at least 4K for purchase) is HDR with WCG.

--Darin
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post #1461 of 2014 Old 07-20-2017, 08:07 PM
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https://youtu.be/My8VUDBMaTY Optoma posted a video about their laser. The uhz model may not improve things as much for brightness(a little) and wcg as more of a 20,000 lampless option. Video stresses 99% of rec 709
Yeah, this video is not about the UHZ65, its about their laser tech in general which they use in many of their 1080p pro projectors,i.e. like the ZH510-T, ZU510-T, ZW300, ZH400, ZU650, ZU850. For these projectors there would be no reason to cover more than rec709.

We don't know for sure yet what gamut coverage the UHZ65 will have, though it should have enough lumens to do P3 - would require an additional filter to do so. Optoma also did rate the specs for the UHZ65 as 25% higher in brightness and contrast than the UHD65. The spec sheet was relatively accurate in the percentage vs real world difference in contrast/lumens between the UHD65/60/550X thus far, so hopefully this will hold true with the UHZ65 as well.

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post #1462 of 2014 Old 07-20-2017, 08:17 PM
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They also did rate the specs for the UHZ65 as 25% higher in brightness and contrast than the UHD65, though. The spec sheet was relatively accurate in the percentage difference in contrast/lumens between the UHD65/60/550X thus far.
While true, Optoma is the same company that years ago had a home theater projector where they decided to release a cheaper version. They rated the cheaper version as lower lumens and lower contrast ratio. I know how that light engine worked (I modified my H79) and I can pretty much guarantee that those ratings had nothing to do with engineering. I am confident that they did not find a way to reduce both. Trading one for the other was possible. They likely just speced it different, put a new sticker on it, and sold it as a lower end model.

While these may follow the specs in some way, I think it will be more coincidence than anything. I've seen how too many marketing departments work. If engineering told them the lumens and CR were the same marketing would find some justification for claiming better on the unit that costs more. There is a small chance they would ask engineering to make a tweak that would be of no consequence, just to ease their conscience a little, but I doubt it. They might take some useful feature (that should really be called a bug more than a feature) of waiting on a black screen for a minute and then closing down an iris to make their dynamic on/off CR claims have some justification, and ask engineering to squeeze the iris a little more on the more expensive unit. That would basically mean nothing good for actual performance though.

I would love to see them deliver more native on/off CR, but I'm sure not going to rely on some specs that are one step away from outright lies to guess how the native on/off CRs will compare.

--Darin
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post #1463 of 2014 Old 07-20-2017, 10:12 PM
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While true, Optoma is the same company that years ago had a home theater projector where they decided to release a cheaper version. They rated the cheaper version as lower lumens and lower contrast ratio. I know how that light engine worked (I modified my H79) and I can pretty much guarantee that those ratings had nothing to do with engineering. I am confident that they did not find a way to reduce both. Trading one for the other was possible. They likely just speced it different, put a new sticker on it, and sold it as a lower end model.

While these may follow the specs in some way, I think it will be more coincidence than anything. I've seen how too many marketing departments work. If engineering told them the lumens and CR were the same marketing would find some justification for claiming better on the unit that costs more. There is a small chance they would ask engineering to make a tweak that would be of no consequence, just to ease their conscience a little, but I doubt it. They might take some useful feature (that should really be called a bug more than a feature) of waiting on a black screen for a minute and then closing down an iris to make their dynamic on/off CR claims have some justification, and ask engineering to squeeze the iris a little more on the more expensive unit. That would basically mean nothing good for actual performance though.

I would love to see them deliver more native on/off CR, but I'm sure not going to rely on some specs that are one step away from outright lies to guess how the native on/off CRs will compare.

--Darin
Frankly, if they can deliver similar native contrast to the UHD65...
AND deliver 25% more lumens (in rec709)
AND deliver 95%+ coverage of P3 colorspace
AND deliver dynamic dimming of similar intrusiveness/effectiveness to the UHD65
AND promise 3D firmware upgrade when available*

I would be 100% satisfied. So even if the 25% extra rated contrast doesn't happen in reality or is only dynamic, it wouldn't sink the deal for me - really would just be a deal sweetener. At this point the most likely thing that could sink the deal is lack of 3D now that BenQ is planning to upgrade their units with 3D by end of year.

* This last requirement now because BenQ has upped the ante by promising 3D firmware upgrade for the HT8050/HT9050 by end of year, and it uses the same chip for video processing as the UHZ65. 3D is a BIG one for me, so given it is now so close (it seemed not until 2019 previously), I'd have a hard time buying without 3D support (only interested in DLP 3D). Was previously going to continue to use current projector for 3D, but if I don't have to dual mount projectors it would definitely be worth waiting an extra 6 months.

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post #1464 of 2014 Old 07-20-2017, 10:25 PM
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Frankly, if they can deliver similar native contrast to the UHD65...
AND deliver 25% more lumens (in rec709)
AND deliver 95%+ coverage of P3 colorspace
AND deliver dynamic dimming of similar intrusiveness/effectiveness to the UHD65
You indicated that you were trying to emulate the ~2k:1 of SDR commercial theaters, so why are you now claiming a good dynamic system as part of your requirements? Were you not being 100% honest when you claimed you were trying to emulate those SDR commercial theaters that you said have 2K:1 on/off CR?

--Darin
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post #1465 of 2014 Old 07-20-2017, 10:34 PM
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You indicated that you were trying to emulate the ~2k:1 of SDR commercial theaters, so why are you now claiming a good dynamic system as part of your requirements? Were you not being 100% honest when you claimed you were trying to emulate those SDR commercial theaters that you said have 2K:1 on/off CR?

--Darin
Please stop baiting for arguments, this 2K CR commercial theater bit is getting old
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post #1466 of 2014 Old 07-20-2017, 11:24 PM
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Please stop baiting for arguments, this 2K CR commercial theater bit is getting old
Ruined is welcome to retract his claim and to stop saying just about anything to help his chosen "team", regardless of whether it is illogical or not. Everybody here is responsible for the claims they post and some people are very transparent when they spin things as if they own stock in one of these companies.

I would be perfectly happy to see somebody stop spinning. This is the AVScience forum, not the AVMarketing forum.

--Darin

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post #1467 of 2014 Old 07-20-2017, 11:56 PM
 
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Pot.....kettle.....black.
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post #1468 of 2014 Old 07-21-2017, 03:31 AM
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I don't know about the Optomas, but when I saw the $9k BenQ we saw some motion issues. The edges of the trees during some pans in The Revenant looked a little off, but the only other projector we had working in the same room was the $35k native 4K JVC. We also saw some banding in different areas of John Wick 2.

We tried to compare to a JVC that is over 5 years old, but we had some problems getting it to sync with the equipment. When I tried it at home later on a completely different screen the motion during the pan I looked at in The Revenant didn't look that good on the RS45 either, whether I used frame interpolation or not.

I was hoping we could compare the whole package with the BenQ. The BenQ had horrible looking blacks over all and the JVC that probably isn't worth much more than $1k at this point would have decimated it there, but overall it would have been interesting to see.

Unless they have a good dynamic system for on/off CR then these XPR projectors are likely to have blacks that are quite a bit worse than the Sharp 11k/12k I had in 2004, at least in the high contrast mode I used with it most of the time.

--Darin
This is one of my major deal makers\breakers between DLP and other solutions. My Sony is awesome to my eyes in every way except motion resolution. I have a Kuro upstairs and after all these years I rarely find a time when I'm not thinking "this is beautiful". I play games vs movies probably 5 out of 6 times. When gaming on the Kuro its as if you have a completely focused rectangle moving as you look around. Sony projector on the other hand as well as the 5040 (using this due to the tech) has noticeable loss in resolution by comparison. I was hoping DLP cleaned this up and have heard it has in the past but haven't seen anything in breaking this down. Personally I'll give up blacks and contrast for full motion resolution.
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post #1469 of 2014 Old 07-21-2017, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Pot.....kettle.....black.
It's all good anyway. The cavalcade of posts trying to rain on the parade of those enthusiastic for the UHD60/UHD65/UHZ65 (including its owners) and other DLP projectors are simply boosting the thread count and exposure, which in turn increases the thread activity and enthusiasm! Once people see what they are getting for their money (4K UHD detail for $2000-$2500), its hard not to be enthusiastic! The key is not to feed into negativity, bickering, and circular arguments that derail the thread.

There is certainly a lot of scientific, objective, factual data available - and I am very happy when individuals like Seegs108 takes the time to provide that data. However, the way one interprets the numbers/objective data and assigns importance in their purchasing priority is 100% opinion and no longer objective or "science."
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Last edited by Ruined; 07-21-2017 at 06:23 AM.
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post #1470 of 2014 Old 07-21-2017, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by TheBrandon View Post
This is one of my major deal makers\breakers between DLP and other solutions. My Sony is awesome to my eyes in every way except motion resolution. I have a Kuro upstairs and after all these years I rarely find a time when I'm not thinking "this is beautiful". I play games vs movies probably 5 out of 6 times. When gaming on the Kuro its as if you have a completely focused rectangle moving as you look around. Sony projector on the other hand as well as the 5040 (using this due to the tech) has noticeable loss in resolution by comparison. I was hoping DLP cleaned this up and have heard it has in the past but haven't seen anything in breaking this down. Personally I'll give up blacks and contrast for full motion resolution.
The DLP projector I saw personally that was 100% awesome for games was the Vivitek H9090. 16ms input lag, perfect motion resolution, fantastic lens, LED light source so you don't have to worry about gaming marathons or even shutting it off. Native contrast about 10% less than the UHD65, similar brightness to UHD65.

Downsides were:
-Terrible dynamic contrast implementation for movies (fine for games though)
-No 3D
-No 4k
-No HDR

But for strictly gaming at 1080p I don't see the Vivitek H9090 as beatable. Probably the closest thing to gaming on your Kuro that you are going to get.

For 4k gaming, the UHD60 is currently the best thing for top notch 4k gaming under $5k, but if you can hold out a bit longer the Vivitek HK2288 looks like it will offer similar input lag but better contrast with its RGBRGB color wheel - I am a big fan of the RGBRGB color wheels over the RGBCY for a number of reasons. Unless of course you are gaming in a bright room in which case UHD60 is the one to get with the increased brightness the RGBCY color wheel provides.

Last edited by Ruined; 07-21-2017 at 06:27 AM.
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