BenQ W1700 : 4K HDR 3D DLP projector - Page 10 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #271 of 947 Old 12-18-2017, 11:52 AM
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Damn...I just read up on the Ultra Short Throw Laser projectors, too. That may be the actual solution to my problem. Unfortunately the Epson LS100 is only 1080p, but the 4K Sony ($25,000) shows that it's doable.

Very interesting...can't wait for CES.
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post #272 of 947 Old 12-18-2017, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Kerosene68 View Post
Hi all,

Any idea what FPS this projector is going to be capable of putting out at full resolution (non 3-D)?

Thanks in advance!
Should be 4K60 like all the rest

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post #273 of 947 Old 12-18-2017, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ocelittle View Post
Damn...I just read up on the Ultra Short Throw Laser projectors, too. That may be the actual solution to my problem. Unfortunately the Epson LS100 is only 1080p, but the 4K Sony ($25,000) shows that it's doable.

Very interesting...can't wait for CES.
There is already a 4k uhd ultra short throw laser by Dell but it is not contrast optimized (does not have dynamic black). So you'd have hdr but blacks would not be the best, worse than your 1070 with dynamic black.

Assuming you want the deeper blacks I'd wait a couple of months someone is bound to announce a UST 4k uhd with dynamic black. Those mounts I pointed you too would be very close to the wall with UST unlike regular short throw, to the extent that you'd barely see the mount.
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post #274 of 947 Old 12-18-2017, 12:45 PM
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I saw this projector up and running today (Australia) at local store. Unfortunately they had it set up in basically daylight conditions, a light coloured room without any attempt to darken the room. The picture was still clearly visible thou. Hopefully the reviews this week are positive.
Do you know what it was selling for in AUD? I read it is supposed to be $2,499 AUD until Jan 31, then $2,999 AUD after that. That should shed some light on what it will cost in the US.
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post #275 of 947 Old 12-18-2017, 01:03 PM
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There is already a 4k uhd ultra short throw laser by Dell but it is not contrast optimized (does not have dynamic black). So you'd have hdr but blacks would not be the best, worse than your 1070 with dynamic black.

Assuming you want the deeper blacks I'd wait a couple of months someone is bound to announce a UST 4k uhd with dynamic black. Those mounts I pointed you too would be very close to the wall with UST unlike regular short throw, to the extent that you'd barely see the mount.
Very cool. Lots to look forward to going forward.
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post #276 of 947 Old 12-18-2017, 01:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Kerosene68 View Post
Hi all,

Any idea what FPS this projector is going to be capable of putting out at full resolution (non 3-D)?

Thanks in advance!
Signed up to respond to this.

The Chinese manual for the w1700 states that this projector supports 120hz operation at 1080p. This is pertinent if you are a gamer into fast action games where the trade-off of higher refresh rate over resolution is worth considering.

See the thread at Blurbusters.com for more info. (I can't post links)
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post #277 of 947 Old 12-18-2017, 01:17 PM
 
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It's also theoretically possible that 240hz native input, at 1080p, could be supported in the future via firmware update. BenQ is investigating this.

HDR at 120hz would also be an interesting possibility.
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post #278 of 947 Old 12-18-2017, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by BattleAxeVR View Post
It's also theoretically possible that 240hz native input, at 1080p, could be supported in the future via firmware update. BenQ is investigating this.

HDR at 120hz would also be an interesting possibility.
The 120hz is not necessarily the max display refresh. The XPR process to create 4k uhd eats up refresh.

For instance every 4k xpr projector released to date is rated at 120hz but tops out at max 60hz display. You could easily get around this for 1080p 3d by disabling xpr, but for 4k uhd xpr needs to be enabled.

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post #279 of 947 Old 12-18-2017, 04:16 PM
 
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The 120hz is not necessarily the max display refresh. The XPR process to create 4k uhd eats up refresh.

For instance every 4k xpr projector released to date is rated at 120hz but tops out at max 60hz display. You could easily get around this for 1080p 3d by disabling xpr, but for 4k uhd xpr needs to be enabled.
I think you're thinking about the previous XPR models (UHD 60) which shift once diagonally and have a resolution of 2716 x 1528.

These new XPR models are quad shifting 1080p native displays, so they can do 1:1 input to output mapping without any scaling.

Disabling XPR and feeding native 1080p should therefore allow 240hz, since 60 x 4 = 240, it's a native 240hz display, plus there is enough bandwidth in HDMI 2.0 (600Mhz) to handle it.

It's just a question of firmware support, or HDMI chipset support. The bandwidth is there and display can do it.
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post #280 of 947 Old 12-18-2017, 04:33 PM
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Ah I thought you were referring to performance with 4k, not 1080p.

I am both excited to see the performance of the 4 way shift xpr and also doubtful. As if it were truly as good as 2 way, TI likely would have gone with 4 way from the start and not spent the money to develop the 2716x1528 0.66" DMD. So my thought is there must be some significant sacrifice(s) with 4 way and will be interesting to see what those are.
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post #281 of 947 Old 12-18-2017, 04:36 PM
 
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Ah I thought you were referring to performance with 4k, not 1080p.
If you leave XPR enabled and send a 1080p signal at 240hz, you could encode the shifting into the 1080p frames themselves. Voila, 4K 240hz.
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post #282 of 947 Old 12-18-2017, 04:48 PM
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If you leave XPR enabled and send a 1080p signal at 240hz, you could encode the shifting into the 1080p frames themselves. Voila, 4K 240hz.
Well this is interesting in theory but I see a few issues here:

1. I haven't seen any guidance from TI of enabling a raw input mode like this on the DLPC4422, so if this guidance doesn't exist (I might have missed it) I see it as unlikely of it being implemented

2. No consumer or pro equipment typically outputs video signals like this, so its application is limited.

3. Im not sure I'm seeing what the advantage of sending four 60hz 1080p subframes is vs. sending a single 60hz 4k frame and letting the projectors video processor create the 1080p subframes as it sees best fit.
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post #283 of 947 Old 12-18-2017, 05:17 PM
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Do you know what it was selling for in AUD? I read it is supposed to be $2,499 AUD until Jan 31, then $2,999 AUD after that. That should shed some light on what it will cost in the US.
Yes , those prices are correct here. There is also a review up at https://www.stereo.net.au/reviews/re...nema-projector.
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post #284 of 947 Old 12-18-2017, 05:52 PM
 
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Well this is interesting in theory but I see a few issues here:

1. I haven't seen any guidance from TI of enabling a raw input mode like this on the DLPC4422, so if this guidance doesn't exist (I might have missed it) I see it as unlikely of it being implemented

2. No consumer or pro equipment typically outputs video signals like this, so its application is limited.

3. Im not sure I'm seeing what the advantage of sending four 60hz 1080p subframes is vs. sending a single 60hz 4k frame and letting the projectors video processor create the 1080p subframes as it sees best fit.
#2 is possible via a display driver wrapper on PC. I'm working on that for other purposes already. That would provide near-universal PC compatibility. You would have a 4K 240hz virtual display which simply packs four frames in a row in a 4 x 4 point sampling scheme. I'll share said software here if I ever get it working, or I might sell it or license it.
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post #285 of 947 Old 12-18-2017, 05:54 PM
 
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3. Im not sure I'm seeing what the advantage of sending four 60hz 1080p subframes is vs. sending a single 60hz 4k frame and letting the projectors video processor create the 1080p subframes as it sees best fit.
Your #3 is hilariously on point, I conceived of such frame packing a few months ago which does exactly that. There's a similar packing test for this projector over at Blurbusters.com. I can't validate either works for sure until either BenQ provides me one or someone else tests it.

It's certainly better and simpler to render four 1080p jittered frames and not have to buffer them which would reduce input lag by roughly 12ms (4ms per frame x 3 frames). It wouldn't be as sharp as true 4K but it wouldn't be worse than how 4K60 looks like on these projectors already, due to overlapping pixels.

Also it wouldn't work with HDR10 since this requires 1:1 mapping and HDMI 2.0 can't manage the bandwidth for RGB or 4:4:4 with 10-bit at 4K60. Perhaps with 48hz or 30hz. (196hz final or 120hz final, both at 4K). 4K120 with HDR10 in 4:4:4 is not bad at all.
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post #286 of 947 Old 12-18-2017, 06:06 PM
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Is there a US price for this?

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post #287 of 947 Old 12-18-2017, 07:17 PM
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Believe it's US$1,995... wish BenQ had priced at $1,500. For $2K, I'd expect BT2020 and maybe minimal lens shift.

Edit: I noticed ProjectorReviews.com mentions "The BenQ has a basic 1.2:1 zoom lens, and a modest amount of lens shift for placement flexibility."

Hi-deft Media Keen Videosaurus

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post #288 of 947 Old 12-18-2017, 09:05 PM
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Yes , those prices are correct here. There is also a review up at https://www.stereo.net.au/reviews/re...nema-projector.


That review sounds pretty good! No comparison to the UHD65 I’m guessing the Australian market doesn’t have as many options as we have here. He said the black levels were better than the X12000. Contrast was my biggest concern considering many have speculated that the extra two pixel shifts would hurt the contrast. I’m officially excited again. Also Australia usually pays much higher for imports than the US. I’m guessing it will be considerably less than the $1,995 msrp that’s been reported.
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post #289 of 947 Old 12-19-2017, 12:13 AM
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That review sounds pretty good! No comparison to the UHD65 I’m guessing the Australian market doesn’t have as many options as we have here. He said the black levels were better than the X12000. Contrast was my biggest concern considering many have speculated that the extra two pixel shifts would hurt the contrast. I’m officially excited again. Also Australia usually pays much higher for imports than the US. I’m guessing it will be considerably less than the $1,995 msrp that’s been reported.
From that review it sounds like the 0.47" chip isn't quite as precise as the 0.66" which is basically what I expected with the larger pixels and greater overlap.

I didn't really fully get the argument some were making about contrast as with DLP the pixels never actually physically overlap at any point in space as there Is zero image persistence (unlike lcd/lcos).

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post #290 of 947 Old 12-19-2017, 01:46 AM
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The misinformation about these DLPs seems to be never ending. One more reviewer who doesn't understand how things work given that they said:
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You could be forgiven at this stage for calling the W1700 another ?pixel shifter,? however, that?s not quite correct either. Due to the speed of the mirrors, it?s able to flash four distinct images, negating the need for diagonal offset or overlapping of the pixels.
Of course they use offset (and likely diagonal for at least 1 of the sub-frames) and of course the pixels overlap. They don't have to overlap in time, just like they don't have to overlap in time with JVC projectors. Anybody who has taken video at 1000 fps with a JVC, like I have, would see that they can change their pixel levels pretty quickly. The JVCs can flash 2 distinct images for eShift. Faster doesn't mean you don't have to shift pixels or overlap pixels.

The DLP pixels overlap spatially, which is all that really matters as long as human vision doesn't see temporal separation. Just think about it. The native (1080p) pixels are 4 times the size of 4K pixels on screen, like they said. So, if you don't shift pixels how do you get to 8 million pixels on screen? Pixels that aren't shifted don't count as new pixels, so you would only have 2 million pixels that count.

If a person wants to argue that pixels don't overlap to a high speed camera they would have to admit that the JVC pixels don't overlap either using that criteria, and if you go by what a high speed camera sees then an RGB color wheel DLP could only show 3 colors. We say that they can produce many colors because we go by what a human or slow speed sensor sees. That is what counts and by that those 4 flashes also overlap.

Funny how a reviewer can take something that just shifts 4 times instead of 2 and make it out like it isn't a pixel shifter, like the JVCs. It is very much like them, just with 4 sub-frames instead of 2 sub-frames.

I wonder if they purposely said "diagonal offset" to trick people into thinking that they aren't pixel shifters. Horizontal offset for 1 sub-frame and then vertical for another would still be pixel shifting and would mean overlapping pixels. I wonder if these guys fell for some cleverly worded deception from TI or BenQ.

--Darin

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post #291 of 947 Old 12-19-2017, 08:21 AM
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The .47 chip has the same micromirror pitch of 5.4 microns that the .67 chip has. So, basically, the definition on the screen should be the same regardless of the pixel shifting. That said, since 3 of the subframes might not overlap (I say might, because we don't know), just the diagonal perhaps, the definition could be sharper. But here is the rub, to get 1080p for 3D, it would have to simply not wobble and show 1920x1080 pixels through the lens. How can that be--the lens system would have to have a 4x lens multiplier to enlarge the image. Soooo....is the 1920x1080 image being cast across 8.3 mega pixels? That might make the image scaled and sharper. If not (ie. a non shifted image is simply 1920x1080 that fills the screen), then there is a heck of lot of overlapping going on to create the 4K image in the same pixel space as 1920x1080, which would leave us with a blurred mess. Perhaps this has been explained on another thread. If so, point me to it.
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post #292 of 947 Old 12-19-2017, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by darinp View Post
The misinformation about these DLPs seems to be never ending. One more reviewer who doesn't understand how things work given that they said:
Of course they use offset (and likely diagonal for at least 1 of the sub-frames) and of course the pixels overlap. They don't have to overlap in time, just like they don't have to overlap in time with JVC projectors. Anybody who has taken video at 1000 fps with a JVC, like I have, would see that they can change their pixel levels pretty quickly. The JVCs can flash 2 distinct images for eShift. Faster doesn't mean you don't have to shift pixels or overlap pixels.

The DLP pixels overlap spatially, which is all that really matters as long as human vision doesn't see temporal separation. Just think about it. The native (1080p) pixels are 4 times the size of 4K pixels on screen, like they said. So, if you don't shift pixels how do you get to 8 million pixels on screen? Pixels that aren't shifted don't count as new pixels, so you would only have 2 million pixels that count.

If a person wants to argue that pixels don't overlap to a high speed camera they would have to admit that the JVC pixels don't overlap either using that criteria, and if you go by what a high speed camera sees then an RGB color wheel DLP could only show 3 colors. We say that they can produce many colors because we go by what a human or slow speed sensor sees. That is what counts and by that those 4 flashes also overlap.

Funny how a reviewer can take something that just shifts 4 times instead of 2 and make it out like it isn't a pixel shifter, like the JVCs. It is very much like them, just with 4 sub-frames instead of 2 sub-frames.

I wonder if they purposely said "diagonal offset" to trick people into thinking that they aren't pixel shifters. Horizontal offset for 1 sub-frame and then vertical for another would still be pixel shifting and would mean overlapping pixels. I wonder if these guys fell for some cleverly worded deception from TI or BenQ.

--Darin


I found a diagram that’s been floating around. It seems that the pixels don’t overlap diagonally. Although it does look as though they overlap considerably more than the 2k DMD’s. Not sure if the overlap is intentional or a limitation of the mirrors on the DMD.
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post #293 of 947 Old 12-19-2017, 10:28 AM
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Something else is at play here as overlapping pixels should clearly be a blurred mess. In their features section for the HT2550 Benq states the division between pixels is clearly seen, though marketing hype, it does make me wonder. I had an Optoma UHD65 for several weeks, and I could see individual pixels and the screen door effect was there although very blurred, but still visible. So the center of the pixel, which does not get overlapped by an edge has an effect on the eye that makes you think it's an individually defined pixel.

Per Benq and they show a picture with clearly defined pixel edges:

"Razor-Sharp Fine Detail Clarity
Critically acclaimed for industry-leading high contrast, BenQ DLP projectors produce the most crisply defined sharpness for crystal-clear details and legible text by maximizing the fill ratio of individual pixels and employing exclusive BenQ SmartEco™ Technology."

Clearly marketing hype, but still puzzling.

To show you the difference between a 1080p image and a .67 4k image see the examples I took below. Not the greatest pics, but you can see the difference that the overlapped pixels make.

I don't want to get into the what is 4K disussion, but just to show you what eshifting looks like so when you see the HT2550, you'll see how it differs. Notice that you can read the text on the emblem in the UHD65 image, but not in the HD29 (1080p) image.
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post #294 of 947 Old 12-19-2017, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by 3DBob View Post
Something else is at play here as overlapping pixels should clearly be a blurred mess. In their features section for the HT2550 Benq states the division between pixels is clearly seen, though marketing hype, it does make me wonder. I had an Optoma UHD65 for several weeks, and I could see individual pixels and the screen door effect was there although very blurred, but still visible. So the center of the pixel, which does not get overlapped by an edge has an effect on the eye that makes you think it's an individually defined pixel.



Per Benq and they show a picture with clearly defined pixel edges:



"Razor-Sharp Fine Detail Clarity

Critically acclaimed for industry-leading high contrast, BenQ DLP projectors produce the most crisply defined sharpness for crystal-clear details and legible text by maximizing the fill ratio of individual pixels and employing exclusive BenQ SmartEco Technology."



Clearly marketing hype, but still puzzling.



To show you the difference between a 1080p image and a .67 4k image see the examples I took below. Not the greatest pics, but you can see the difference that the overlapped pixels make.



I don't want to get into the what is 4K disussion, but just to show you what eshifting looks like so when you see the HT2550, you'll see how it differs. Notice that you can read the text on the emblem in the UHD65 image, but not in the HD29 (1080p) image.


While the UHD65 is clearly sharper, it is difficult to see the individual pixels. Not sure if that’s a bad thing though. Also the lens has a lot of chromatic aberration. I have a feeling the vertical/horizontal pixel shifting plus the better all glass lens will make the HT2550 look even sharper than the UHD65. I have a good feeling that this HT2550 will be to UHD projectors as the W1070 was to Full HD projectors.
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post #295 of 947 Old 12-19-2017, 11:20 AM
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@bix26 , great find on that comparison chart of 2X and 4X XPR shifting. I searched all over the place for something like that and couldn't find anything.
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post #296 of 947 Old 12-19-2017, 11:45 AM
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While the UHD65 is clearly sharper, it is difficult to see the individual pixels. Not sure if that’s a bad thing though. Also the lens has a lot of chromatic aberration. I have a feeling the vertical/horizontal pixel shifting plus the better all glass lens will make the HT2550 look even sharper than the UHD65. I have a good feeling that this HT2550 will be to UHD projectors as the W1070 was to Full HD projectors.
IMO it's unlikely the HT2550 will match the UHD65 in sharpness for 4K UHD material. Contrast sure, but I think the UHD65 will prevail in sharpness due to smaller pixels and less overlap.
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post #297 of 947 Old 12-19-2017, 11:57 AM
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There is already a 4k uhd ultra short throw laser by Dell but it is not contrast optimized (does not have dynamic black). So you'd have hdr but blacks would not be the best, worse than your 1070 with dynamic black.

Assuming you want the deeper blacks I'd wait a couple of months someone is bound to announce a UST 4k uhd with dynamic black. Those mounts I pointed you too would be very close to the wall with UST unlike regular short throw, to the extent that you'd barely see the mount.
Very cool. Lots to look forward to going forward.
Short throw is more for a cabnit. I have 2 ceiling fans in the room. This is a 80's tv stand I took the back off of. Works great. 7.5' for 120" screen.
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post #298 of 947 Old 12-19-2017, 12:00 PM
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IMO it's unlikely the HT2550 will match the UHD65 in sharpness for 4K UHD material. Contrast sure, but I think the UHD65 will prevail in sharpness due to smaller pixels and less overlap.



Just kidding, I wouldn’t be surprised if your right. Just hope your wrong Because I’m definitely going for the HT2550. If it ends up being a disappointment I’ll return it. Hopefully it goes up for sale soon.
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post #299 of 947 Old 12-19-2017, 12:03 PM
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post #300 of 947 Old 12-19-2017, 12:07 PM
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Just kidding, I wouldn’t be surprised if your right. Just hope your wrong Because I’m definitely going for the HT2550. If it ends up being a disappointment I’ll return it. Hopefully it goes up for sale soon.
Well not necessarily saying it will be a disappointment but I would not be surprised to see some amount of sharpness loss w/ 4k from the UHD65, again otherwise TI would use this 4 way shift on all models as it would have been cheaper to implement. Just not sure how much less sharp it will be. Should still be significantly sharper than a 1070 on 4k.

Last edited by Ruined; 12-19-2017 at 12:19 PM.
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