BenQ W1700 : 4K HDR 3D DLP projector - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 946 Old 10-31-2017, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
Kraine, please amend the title of this thread to add the US/ Canada model number: HT2550.

I received word from my contact at BenQ that this unit does in fact use the true 4K .47” DMD chip (same as the Optoma UHD60/65). She also revealed that the US/Canada retail price would be <$2000!
Optoma UHD60/65 also use .47” DMD chip?

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post #32 of 946 Old 11-01-2017, 04:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chhanthony View Post
Optoma UHD60/65 also use .47” DMD chip?
No, .66 for first gen 4K PJs.

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post #33 of 946 Old 11-01-2017, 04:25 AM
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I hope this has the same throw ratio as the HT2050 and w1070. I’m as close as you can get to project a 120” image and I can’t move further back.

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post #34 of 946 Old 11-01-2017, 07:01 AM
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And I hope there is short-throw version coming...
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post #35 of 946 Old 11-01-2017, 08:19 AM
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BenQ W1700 : 4K HDR 3D DLP projector

Quote:
Originally Posted by chhanthony View Post
Optoma UHD60/65 also use .47” DMD chip?


Nope, I apologize. I got my .47 and .67s confused. My bad, we’re going to blame that gaff on too much candy and booze. Corrected on the post.

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Last edited by sage11x; 11-01-2017 at 08:42 AM.
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post #36 of 946 Old 11-01-2017, 08:34 AM
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I am definitely interested in this or the upper model quoted in this thread. My trusty old W1070 still makes me smile every night. The faux 4K will have my grin even wider. Not complaining if it is frame interpolation e-shift etc. Will it look much better than what I have now that currently makes me very happy. I am pretty sure yes, yes it will. As it is I have had people ask me if my current setup is 4K (yes this really happens). Most people don't count pixels, if it looks good and sounds good, they are happy.
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post #37 of 946 Old 11-01-2017, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp View Post
The UHD6x projectors use 0.67" chips. I don't know if TI has crammed 4 million mirrors onto a 0.47" chip and given that they said they were going to do 4x XPR with a 0.47" 1080p native chip, my guess is that this is what this projector will be.

I wouldn't trust BenQ about what "true 4K" is. There is basically zero chance that this is a native 4K chip, but a marketing organization allows them to claim these as "4K UHD".

Around here I would prefer that people refer to these eShift solutions with things like:

1080p+eShift
2.7K+eShift
1080p+4xeShift

However, there are some people around here who are determined to call these 4K with absolutely no qualifier. They know that this will make some readers think that these are native 4K. I tend not to trust people who intentionally do that.

--Darin

I don’t know, I think the industry has been pretty forthcoming on this information and, yeah, I got my .47 and .67s confused. Apologies and I’ve updated the post. But to clarify: there is no ‘native’ 4k DLP chip and by that I mean there is no DLP DMD with 8 million individual mirrors. But mirrors are not pixels and the pixel count is 8 million.

In a way this reminds me of way back when people would argue that 720p was a higher resolution than 1080i. That argument was and still is nonsense. What matters is how many pixels are created on screen and how your eye/brain perceives that image. Now we can argue about ARTIFACTS that might occur when using a 2 million or 4 million mirror DMD to produce an 8 million pixel image but that’s a different discussion.
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post #38 of 946 Old 11-01-2017, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenithPete View Post
I don't think anyone will care if it does decent 3d out of the box. Also looks more compact.


I actually will. I was not at all concerned about 3D until I got into projectors and now I’m really sad to see that tech fall to the wayside. You are probably right that the majority of consumers won’t care as evidenced by the flatscreen industry all but abandoning it. Still, there is a large segment of projector owners that still support 3D.

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post #39 of 946 Old 11-01-2017, 08:44 AM
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No, I didn't word that correctly it seems. I meant the main advantage over the competition is it does 3d. I also have a large collection of 3d bluray I don't want to put out to pasture. The epson has too many compatibility issues with the xbox one and other devices when it comes to hdr. Hopefully the benq won't. As well as being more compact and possibly quieter than some of the other options.
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post #40 of 946 Old 11-01-2017, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
I actually will. I was not at all concerned about 3D until I got into projectors and now I’m really sad to see that tech fall to the wayside. You are probably right that the majority of consumers won’t care as evidenced by the flatscreen industry all but abandoning it. Still, there is a large segment of projector owners that still support 3D.
Absolutely. Movie theatres haven't abandoned the format, and new movies are still being released in 3D. HDR will remain a problem piece for projectors for some time, as the calibrated projector HDR luminance will not reach current TV luminance levels. In the absence of proper 4K, it's the 3D that should be kept relevant for the projectors. Plus 3D in larger screens are a completely different immersive experience compared to what TV's could ever achieve.
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post #41 of 946 Old 11-01-2017, 08:50 AM
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Very interesting.

The 0.47" DMD will likely result in reduced 4k uhd resolution precision compared to the UHD65, and likely will also result in reduced contrast.

That being said, 3D makes this interesting. Its probably a lot easier to enable 3d on a native 1080p xpr dmd like this one compared to the odd native resolution of the 0.67" XPR DMDs.

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post #42 of 946 Old 11-01-2017, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenithPete View Post
No, I didn't word that correctly it seems. I meant the main advantage over the competition is it does 3d. I also have a large collection of 3d bluray I don't want to put out to pasture. The epson has too many compatibility issues with the xbox one and other devices when it comes to hdr. Hopefully the benq won't. As well as being more compact and possibly quieter than some of the other options.


Well I’m sorry I misunderstood. I really get a lot of enjoyment out of 3D. Some movies— especially animated films like Inside Out, Zootopia and Moana— I can’t imagine watching without the 3D. It’s so integral to the experience.
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post #43 of 946 Old 11-01-2017, 08:56 AM
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^ Well, then I misunderstood as well
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post #44 of 946 Old 11-01-2017, 09:04 AM
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Hopefully this will be as 'Bang for your buck' as the 1070 was.
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post #45 of 946 Old 11-01-2017, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
But to clarify: there is no ‘native’ 4k DLP chip and by that I mean there is no DLP DMD with 8 million individual mirrors.
TI has had native 4k DLP chips for years, but they are mostly for the commercial market. At least one person on these forums has been selling them for home theater situations, but at very high prices.
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But mirrors are not pixels and the pixel count is 8 million.
The pixel count is 8 million, but they overlap on screen, so very different from their native 4k chips. With the native 4k chips you should be able to do a single pixel checkerboard of black and white. XPR projectors that claim 8 million pixels cannot do that pattern correctly because they cannot do the 8 million pixels in each source frame as they are meant to be displayed, which is with each pixel out of the 8 million getting a distinct spot on the screen.
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In a way this reminds me of way back when people would argue that 720p was a higher resolution than 1080i.
eShift and XPR are different than this example in a very important way. With 1080i done properly each subframe of 540 lines would only fill half of the screen area. The part that was left black for one sub-frame was filled in by the other sub-frame. XPR doesn't work that way. Other than the fact that they have less than 100% fill ratio (since there are gaps between the mirrors) each sub-frame of 4 million pixels fills the whole screen. There is no room left for the other 4 million pixels (with the 2x eShift case). So, the 2nd set of 4 million pixels overlap with the first set. Every pixel outside of the edges overlaps with 4 other pixels.
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What matters is how many pixels are created on screen and how your eye/brain perceives that image.
In this case eShift and XPR are meant to be fast enough that your eyes don't see the individual pixels. So, what you should see with TI's current XPR projectors is 16 million sub-pixels. Your brain shouldn't see 8 million individual pixels with XPR (unlike their native 4k chips) because they overlap and with a sharp lens and looking closely what you should see is little 1/4 sized sub-pixels. I think TI wants to avoid admitting that what ends up on screen is 16 million little sub-pixels because then people will realize that putting up 4 million pixels and then overlapping them with another 4 million pixels is not the same as putting up 8 million pixels that don't overlap, which is how native resolutions work.

I'm unclear whether you knew that the pixels all overlap and were still arguing that putting up 8 million pixels means you've displayed real 4k in the end, or whether their marketing and the spin from some others had led you to believe that these projectors are true 4k because true 4k has 8 million pixels and these put up 8 million pixels per frame.

--Darin
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post #46 of 946 Old 11-01-2017, 11:29 AM
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It's going to be <$2000 in the U.S. (i.e. $1999 or something like that), confirms my source at BenQ.

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post #47 of 946 Old 11-01-2017, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
It's going to be <$2000 in the U.S. (i.e. $1999 or something like that), confirms my source at BenQ.


Yes I asked Kraine to update his original post as well as add the US/Can model number: HT2550.

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hopefully this will have a similar throw to my 2150ST, when the bulb goes Ill just get one of these to replace it or just get it to swap out if no 3D

some more info:

http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/ben...projector.html
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post #49 of 946 Old 11-01-2017, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp View Post
I'm unclear whether you knew that the pixels all overlap and were still arguing that putting up 8 million pixels means you've displayed real 4k in the end, or whether their marketing and the spin from some others had led you to believe that these projectors are true 4k because true 4k has 8 million pixels and these put up 8 million pixels per frame.



--Darin


No, I understand how the technology works. And I get that the 1080p enhancement on JVC and Epson produces a similar result of overlapping pixels— On the 5040UB I actually counted it as an advantage as the enhanced resolution does wonders for pixel fill.

Please don’t take offense to this: I just don’t care as much as you do. I understand the benefits of higher resolution and I’m all for having higher resolution displays but I’m just not all that concerned if some of those pixels overlap. We’re starting to reach the point of diminishing returns. If it looks sharp and doesn’t create any wonky artifacts: I’m down.

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post #50 of 946 Old 11-01-2017, 12:01 PM
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BenQ W1700 : 4K HDR 3D DLP projector

Quote:
Originally Posted by swarm87 View Post
hopefully this will have a similar throw to my 2150ST, when the bulb goes Ill just get one of these to replace it or just get it to swap out if no 3D

some more info:

http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/ben...projector.html


I would doubt that. The 2150ST is a short throw projector. Based on the images the HT2550 doesn’t appear to have an ST lens. Plus, it would probably cost more to fit an ST lens that can actually resolve that extra definition. This is speculation, of course, as I don’t have any of those detail.

What to do if you find yourself stuck with no hope of rescue:
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post #51 of 946 Old 11-01-2017, 01:41 PM
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... Please don’t take offense to this: I just don’t care as much as you do. I understand the benefits of higher resolution and I’m all for having higher resolution displays but I’m just not all that concerned if some of those pixels overlap. We’re starting to reach the point of diminishing returns. If it looks sharp and doesn’t create any wonky artifacts: I’m down.
I think the point that @darinp is trying to make is that something that is not true 4K should have a different name to avoid confusion for those who do care. In fact that's where the term FauxK came from. For example, poromeric imitation leather looks like leather but is actually made of a polyurethane coating on a polyester base. Just because some don't care if the jacket they just bought is made of imitation leather as long as it looks like real leather doesn't mean it should be marketed and sold as a true leather jacket to those who do care about the difference.
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post #52 of 946 Old 11-01-2017, 01:54 PM
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post #53 of 946 Old 11-01-2017, 02:15 PM
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I think the point that @darinp is trying to make is that something that is not true 4K should have a different name to avoid confusion for those who do care. In fact that's where the term FauxK came from. For example, poromeric imitation leather looks like leather but is actually made of a polyurethane coating on a polyester base. Just because some don't care if the jacket they just bought is made of imitation leather as long as it looks like real leather doesn't mean it should be marketed and sold as a true leather jacket to those who do care about the difference.


I agree. But don’t they do this already? Or is it that terms like ‘4k enhanced’ and ‘4k e-shift’ are misleading? I’m genuinely asking because I think, for people like you and I who are exposed to this stuff, the distinction is pretty clear. I guess my point is if TI says: our chip has 4 million micro mirrors and produces 8 million pixels, that’s a pretty clear indication to those that are concerned about this stuff that the mirror to pixel ratio is not 1:1.

As an aside: I don’t know many people with LCD TVs but I know plenty with LED TVs! Compared to the marketing language used in some industries I feel the projector industry is pretty ‘straight shooter’ but... I could be wrong. It’s hard for me to tell as I’m well versed in this hobby. Thanks in large part to folks like you, Dave, in this forum.

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post #54 of 946 Old 11-01-2017, 02:56 PM
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Or is it that terms like ‘4k enhanced’ and ‘4k e-shift’ are misleading?
I'm fine with terms like that. It is people here who refuse to use anything like that and instead use either "4k" or "4k UHD" when talking about these XPR DLP projectors. I think they know that this will make some people believe they are true 4k.

I can understand why marketing organizations like using terms like "4k UHD", but I think this place can do better.

--Darin
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post #55 of 946 Old 11-01-2017, 03:19 PM
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I agree. But don’t they do this already? Or is it that terms like ‘4k enhanced’ and ‘4k e-shift’ are misleading? ...
Marketing people make every effort to avoid calling out anything that suggests what they're trying to sell is not better than it really is. I think it would be easy to misinterpret '4K enhanced' and '4K e-shift' as 4K + enhancements or better than 4K. The number of visitors to this site who have expressed the belief that all the shifty projectors are true 4K is an indication of how much confusion there is among casual consumers. Many video enthusiasts are even confused. Check the way Hilbert Hagedoorn announced the introduction of the W1700 on the Australian site Guru3D.com and note the multiple use of the word "true":

Quote:
BenQ Debuts True 4K UHD HDR Home Cinema Projector

by Hilbert Hagedoorn

BenQ announced CineHome W1700 DLP projector, bringing 4K UHD HDR home cinema all audiences at a sensible value. Remarkably, the budget-friendly W1700 comes fully loaded with true 8.3 megapixel true UHD 4K resolution, CinematicColor accuracy, and projection-optimized HDR for stunning true-to-life image quality. ...

guru3d.com/news-story/benq-debuts-true-4k-uhd-hdr-home-cinema-projector.html


I just checked the Sony site to see how they described their genuine 4K projector models and what they use is Native 4K. That's probably a good way to differentiate genuine from faux. We understand for example that native 2K (1080p) projectors have panels with 1920x1080 = 2,073,600 pixels. Similarly native 4K projectors have panels with 4096x2160 = 8,847,360 pixels.

The shifty models do a good job of approximating 4K to the point that many will be satisfied with the cost-performance value. The 4K shifty horse is already out of the projector barn and no one is ever going to get everyone to stop thinking of them as 4K. But for those who care they are not native 4K, and it's fair to bring that up to help educate those visiting this forum seeking advice on 4K projectors.

I wonder if @darinp would find it acceptable to differentiate by using native 4K as opposed to non-native 4K that uses various processing to produce a near-4K image?
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post #56 of 946 Old 11-01-2017, 03:32 PM
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Although I received a PR email with the news of this projector, I've asked BenQ to provide me with more info before posting about it. Waiting...
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Originally Posted by darinp View Post
I'm fine with terms like that. It is people here who refuse to use anything like that and instead use either "4k" or "4k UHD" when talking about these XPR DLP projectors. I think they know that this will make some people believe they are true 4k.

I can understand why marketing organizations like using terms like "4k UHD", but I think this place can do better.

--Darin
In a world where Sony native 4k projectors fail some of the very same 4k tests that XPR chips fail, I think judging via content detail makes a lot of sense rather than merely the panel/dmd resolution

Or another example you could have a projector with native 4k panel and lens is junk with artifacts galore , is it fair to harp on xpr projectors when they might produce a sharper output than this example? A projectors on screen resolution is more than just panel/dmd native pixel count.

I think this is why 4k uhd term makes sense at this point in time. The only native 4k projectors I've heard get universal approval of resolution output is the 1.38" DMD DLPs and 35k JVC. The Sony's and XPR are close but some complain about them. But, you can't sell a format with only $35k+ projectors, so 4k uhd is a good way to describe projectors that are 90% there. JVC and Epson already coined e-shift and 4ke which produce significantly less precise output than xpr so there should be some go between native 4k and 4k eshift - hence 4k uhd term. Similar to HD term where HDTVs were 1080p, 1080i, or 720op.

This 0.47 xpr chip will likely quite a bit worse than 0.67 xpr due to the increased pixel size and overlap. But I am willing to give it a chance to see what the final 4 way shift output is like with real content.

Last edited by Ruined; 11-01-2017 at 04:07 PM.
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post #58 of 946 Old 11-01-2017, 06:04 PM
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With the native 4k chips you should be able to do a single pixel checkerboard of black and white. XPR projectors that claim 8 million pixels cannot do that pattern correctly because they cannot do the 8 million pixels in each source frame as they are meant to be displayed, which is with each pixel out of the 8 million getting a distinct spot on the screen.
I could have sworn there were reviewers and owners who claimed that the XPS PJs were able to produce a single pixel checkerboard? No?

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post #59 of 946 Old 11-01-2017, 07:41 PM
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... some complain about them. ...
Some complain about everything. If we only bought things that no one complained about we'd all save a lot of money.
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post #60 of 946 Old 11-01-2017, 08:33 PM
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Some complain about everything. If we only bought things that no one complained about we'd all save a lot of money.
😅😅😅

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