What Constitutes 4K? - Page 15 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #421 of 523 Old 03-20-2018, 09:26 AM
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Heck, I can go a step further and say, what you like, I might not like and vice versa. Even seeing in person, we all can't agree. Just look at the reviews here and on Amazon, at the Optoma website. Nothing beats having one in hand and making your own decision--as some on here and on the HT2550 thread can attest to--good and bad. Beyond actual owners, we are all texting mind farts, myself included.
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post #422 of 523 Old 03-20-2018, 10:39 PM
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It looks like 0.47 vs. 0.66 is still an open question. The lesson learned is that the projectors would need to be calibrated first before a fair comparison is possible. Otherwise, too many variables are clouding the issue.

Thanks to 3DBob for finding a comparison.

The list price for a DLP660TEFYG (0.66 inch) is $476. The 0.47 part (DLP470TE) is $203. And the 0.66 chip should need bigger optics. So perhaps, as an upper limit, a $1000 differential at retail between a 0.47 projector and a 0.66 projector. This choice is really begging for a side-by-side to see if there is a thousand dollars worth of visible difference...


Thanks,

Scott
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post #423 of 523 Old 03-22-2018, 02:43 AM
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Building on the introduction of the DLP660TE last year, DLP Products is taking it a step further with the introduction of the DLP470TE and DLP470TP chipsets. The DLP470TP is the most compact 4K UHD solution from DLP Products, and is optimized for size and power. This chipset is the best fit for applications that demand portability, and brightness levels below 1,500 lumens. The DLP470TE shares many technical characteristics with the DLP470TP, but is optimized for projectors above 1,500 lumens. This device is in a larger package than the DLP470TP, which allows it to withstand a greater amount of heat, enabling brightness up to 4,000 lumens.

With a tiny 0.47-inch diagonal, you can display 8.3 million pixels in a smaller design for a cost-effective display solution for the mainstream market.The DLP470TE and DLP470TP 4K UHD chipsets display four pixels on the screen per micromirror, enabling the smallest 4K UHD digital micromirror device (DMD) that DLP technology has to offer. With a wide range of lumens capabilities, the DLP 4K UHD family of chipsets allows you to broaden your 4K UHD display possibilities by developing systems that use the chipset’s high brightness capabilities and small form factor for applications such as laser TV, digital signage, gaming, corporate and education projectors, mobile smart TV, and more.
So as long as you have the 8million pixels on screen, it's considered 4K UHD.? or is that an over simplification of the matter
https://e2e.ti.com/blogs_/b/enlightened/archive/2017/12/05/seeing-more-with-4k-uhd-display

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post #424 of 523 Old 03-22-2018, 04:42 AM
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Originally Posted by wheelee View Post
So as long as you have the 8million pixels on screen, it's considered 4K UHD.? or is that an over simplification of the matter
It's a question of what do you count, the composite image that is perceived, or each individual component as it is displayed instantaneously?

If you say each individual component, then DLP can display 8.3 million pixels (4.15Mpix * 2 or 2.07Mpix*4), but it can only display 768 (or less, if you say it's not actually 8-bit) colors since it shows each color sequentially, which means it maxes out at 256*3 colors.

I think we can all agree that it's silly to say DLP can only produce 768 colors, but that means we have to consider the composite image, and when you do that, yes, you get the full 24-bit color, but you also have to acknowledge that you can't just add up each flash of pixels, you have to consider pixel size and pixel overlap and the limitations it imposes.
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post #425 of 523 Old 03-22-2018, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by wheelee View Post
So as long as you have the 8million pixels on screen, it's considered 4K UHD.? or is that an over simplification of the matter ...
The Consumer Technology Association (CTA) definition of 4K UHD does not specify that the 8 million pixels be discrete and not overlapping in a projected image as they are discrete and not overlapping on a 4K UHD TV. Those who think the 8 million pixels in a 4K UHD projected image should be discrete and not overlapping consistent with 4K UHD TVs believe the CTA definition of 4K UHD is flawed and misleading when applied to front projection.
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post #426 of 523 Old 03-22-2018, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelee View Post
So as long as you have the 8million pixels on screen, it's considered 4K UHD.? or is that an over simplification of the matter
https://e2e.ti.com/blogs_/b/enlightened/archive/2017/12/05/seeing-more-with-4k-uhd-display
Some people go by that, but it is a little bit more complicated that that.

Anybody can make up their own definition, but to use the 4K UHD logos from the CTA standards group there is a display resolution requirement:
Quote:
Display Resolution—Has at least 8 million active pixels, with at least 3840 horizontally and at least 2160 vertically. Physical pixels shall be individually addressable such that the horizontal and vertical resolution above can be demonstrated over the full range of colors provided by the display.
Originally they just had the 1st sentence and then added the 2nd one later. I have some suspicions that at least some of these XPR DLPs can't actually do colors above about 50% luminance (or something else less than 100%) for the bright lines while demonstrating the horizontal and vertical resolution, but I couldn't get a BenQ XPR projector to even work reasonably for a single pixel vertical green line pattern in 4K space, so I couldn't check how they actually prove the horizontal resolution they claim.

Since companies are allowed to self certify TI could claim that they meet all the requirements by just going by the original version of the CTA requirements (which don't include the full color range requirement), or they could interpret the 2nd sentence in a way that allows them to qualify. It is possible that they can really do the full range of colors (where generally luminance is part of a color), but I will doubt it until I seem some evidence about what sub-frames they put up in order to show a single pixel line pattern.

I asked somebody from the CTA group about this second sentence and was told that the group isn't currently active and they would have to investigate to see if the group agrees that TI passes (which it doesn't sound like the group will do). If the group investigated and decided that TI cannot do the full range of colors while demonstrating resolution they could always change the requirements again to allow TI to pass.

The best I've seen for an XPR projector doing a single pixel line pattern in 4K was a picture sage11x ran it on his 1080p plus 4 way XPR W1700, which is IMO a pretty poor example of showing single pixel green and black lines that are supposed to be the same width:


Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
It's a question of what do you count, the composite image that is perceived, or each individual component as it is displayed instantaneously?

If you say each individual component, then DLP can display 8.3 million pixels (4.15Mpix * 2 or 2.07Mpix*4), but it can only display 768 (or less, if you say it's not actually 8-bit) colors since it shows each color sequentially, which means it maxes out at 256*3 colors.
Not sure how you are counting a component here, but a single chip DLP can only show 2 colors at any instant (the current colorwheel color and black). Even to get 256 steps you have to integrate over time.

A 3 chip DLP could do 8 colors at any instant in time.

--Darin

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post #427 of 523 Old 03-22-2018, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by darinp View Post
Not sure how you are counting a component here, but a single chip DLP can only show 2 colors at any instant (the current colorwheel color and black). Even to get 256 steps you have to integrate over time.
I was trying to say, DLP (single chip) displays each of 3 colors separately, and each color is, at best 8 bit, so 256 possible shades each of red, green, blue, so 768 total "colors" can be actually shown on screen, only 256 distinct colors/shades at any instant.
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post #428 of 523 Old 03-22-2018, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
I was trying to say, DLP (single chip) displays each of 3 colors separately, and each color is, at best 8 bit, so 256 possible shades each of red, green, blue, so 768 total "colors" can be actually shown on screen, only 256 distinct colors/shades at any instant.
Still seems like an interesting way to count it to me. They are only 1 bit for an instant. If you want to say 8 bit then you have to count over a time slice with PWM and once you do that I think you should do 256^3 instead of 256*3. I can’t think of a time slice that would only be times 3 since if you count 8 bit per color then you have to do all the combinations.

—Darin
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post #429 of 523 Old 03-22-2018, 11:30 PM
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we have e-shift, DLP e-shift, XPR they should call the next iteration "Kage Bunshin no Jutsu"

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Originally Posted by wheelee View Post
we have e-shift, DLP e-shift, XPR they should call the next iteration "Kage Bunshin no Jutsu"
Haha too much Naruto bro.
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post #431 of 523 Old 03-24-2018, 05:02 AM
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Originally Posted by darinp View Post
Still seems like an interesting way to count it to me. They are only 1 bit for an instant. If you want to say 8 bit then you have to count over a time slice with PWM and once you do that I think you should do 256^3 instead of 256*3. I can’t think of a time slice that would only be times 3 since if you count 8 bit per color then you have to do all the combinations.

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Doh, I didn't take it far enough
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post #432 of 523 Old 03-24-2018, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by wheelee View Post
we have e-shift, DLP e-shift, XPR they should call the next iteration "Kage Bunshin no Jutsu"
Marketing terms always create confusion. Often that's the intent of the marketers. The generic term "pixel shifting" covers all the fancy marketing terms for all projectors that don't display 8 million discrete, non-overlapping pixels on the screen.
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post #433 of 523 Old 03-25-2018, 11:42 AM
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Wink

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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
Marketing terms always create confusion. Often that's the intent of the marketers. The generic term "pixel shifting" covers all the fancy marketing terms for all projectors that don't display 8 million discrete, non-overlapping pixels on the screen.
Yes, but we need to be careful what we wish for. Non-overlapping pixels leads back to the screen-door effect.

So we really want them to overlap an itsy-bitsy bit. We can call this IBBO pixels. :-)

Scott
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Originally Posted by 645824 View Post
Yes, but we need to be careful what we wish for. Non-overlapping pixels leads back to the screen-door effect.

So we really want them to overlap an itsy-bitsy bit. We can call this IBBO pixels. :-)

Scott
If the technology existed to make pixels consistently overlap an itsy-bitsy bit instead of the current massive overlap then that same technology should be able to make them flush with no overlap and no gaps. But with actual 4K-size pixels and small enough gaps there will be no visible screen door effect from any reasonable viewing distance.
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post #435 of 523 Old 03-26-2018, 10:41 AM
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Hello all! I researched and bought a nice 1080P projector back in 2010, a Panasonic PT-AE4000. I never looked back and actually got out of the online HT scene since my needs were fulfilled. Lately, I got interested by 4k projectors, only to find this thread, and the sad state of the current offering!

Entry level pseudo-4k, or high end native with the price tag of a new car. Where is the 2000$ Panasonic 4k projector?

Can somebody try to explain why native 4k DLP or LCD chips aren't being developped? This should be a matter of more or less putting four 1080P devices on a single, larger chip?

4k TVs have about reached the low price of FullHD of 10 years ago, why not projectors?

I'm puzzled!

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post #436 of 523 Old 03-26-2018, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by deromax View Post
Can somebody try to explain why native 4k DLP or LCD chips aren't being developped?
There are native 4K DLP chips, they're found in cinema projectors and $100k+ machines. LCD? 4K starts at the high end, just like 1080p before it. LCD doesn't have the performance to compete at the high end, but JVC and Sony have LCoS chips that are native 4K.

Quote:
This should be a matter of more or less putting four 1080P devices on a single, larger chip?
Larger chips drive up the cost dramatically, look at the premium DLPs that come with the 0.95" DMDs vs the budget ones which come with the 0.67" chip, and again now with the .47" TRP DMD vs the 0.67" one. The smaller chip allows cheaper optics (primarily).

Quote:
4k TVs have about reached the low price of FullHD of 10 years ago, why not projectors?

I'm puzzled!
Because they probably make 1000, or 10,000 TVs for every projector.
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post #437 of 523 Old 03-27-2018, 03:40 PM
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This is an excellent short video comparing the DLP pixel shifting UHZ65 to the true 4K Sony VPL-VW385ES:



if you want to cut to the chase skip ahead to 07:40.


This is the first part of an excellent two part article:

https://tvspecialists.com/vplvw385es...-comparison-1/

Last edited by DunMunro; 03-27-2018 at 04:56 PM.
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post #438 of 523 Old 03-28-2018, 01:29 PM
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Well, this should make a lot of you rest uneasy.... Here is a comparison between the Optoma UHD50 .47 TI 4K 4-XPR chip, and an Optoma HD29 TI 1080p chip, and an Optoma UHD65 .66 TI 4K 2-XPR chip. These are images of a NASA symbol in the left corner of a 4K youtube video of the space station fly-through.

The first image is the UH50 and the HD29. Notice that you basically see the same number of pixels in both, but the 4k .47 pixels appear slightly smaller and packed together--not a 4 to 1 pixel ratio as you would expect with native 4K. Somehow there is detail in the overlay that isn't obvious, but you can see that the 4k image on the left has more detail and you can almost read the "OFF THE EARTH, FOR THE EARTH" statement. The other image is from the UHD65. Note how much smaller the pixels look, and you can read the statement a little better, but not much. Disregard the noise in the images, as I over-sharpened them to get the pixels to show better. I must say, though, watching 4K on the UHD50 is so close to the UHD65, that you would not know the difference, except the UHD65 has slightly better contrast. And from a distance, the 1080p chip holds up pretty well, also.
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post #439 of 523 Old 03-28-2018, 02:50 PM
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Bob have you had the chance to check out any UHD Blu-rays like Planet Earth 2 or Blue Planet 2?

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Bob have you had the chance to check out any UHD Blu-rays like Planet Earth 2 or Blue Planet 2?
No unfortunately, I have to give the projector back to a friend.
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Originally Posted by 3DBob View Post
Well, this should make a lot of you rest uneasy.... Here is a comparison between the Optoma UHD50 .47 TI 4K 4-XPR chip, and an Optoma HD29 TI 1080p chip, and an Optoma UHD65 .66 TI 4K 2-XPR chip. These are images of a NASA symbol in the left corner of a 4K youtube video of the space station fly-through.
Excellent! Thanks Bob.

Scott
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post #442 of 523 Old 05-19-2018, 10:05 AM
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Projector Central has a nice commentary on 4K vs. faux-K. Like us, they recognized that actually seeing 4K or faux-K pixels from a normal viewing distance is difficult. They then observed that the contrast becomes the dominant feature (black level, HDR, etc.)

http://www.projectorcentral.com/4k-p...rs-defined.htm


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Credit to @BattleAxeVR for posting the link below to the Optotune website with the following description of their XPR-25 actuator:

Quote:
Optotune’s XPR-25 is an Extended Pixel Resolution 4-position Actuator. With a clear aperture of about 25mm it has been designed for Texas Instrument’s 0.47” DMD and enables the perceived image resolution to be increased from its native 1080p to 4K.
The key word is "perceived." Optotune deserves credit for providing an accurate technical description of what can be accomplished with DLP+XPR.

optotune.com/products/beam-shifting
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
Credit to @BattleAxeVR for posting the link below to the Optotune website with the following description of their XPR-25 actuator:



The key word is "perceived." Optotune deserves credit for providing an accurate technical description of what can be accomplished with DLP+XPR.

optotune.com/products/beam-shifting
Now you're making me wondering. We're talking about display technology, what else matters beside what you perceive? The entire goal of many display technologies is tricking our eyes & brains to perceive certain things. If i perceive the 8 million pixels of a 4K display.... then it's a 4K display? O_o
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... No more arguments need to be presented. ...
Some will certainly find new data of interest. But those who don't are certainly free to opt out of the conversation.
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Originally Posted by racemaniac View Post
Now you're making me wondering. We're talking about display technology, what else matters beside what you perceive? The entire goal of many display technologies is tricking our eyes & brains to perceive certain things. If i perceive the 8 million pixels of a 4K display.... then it's a 4K display? O_o
They call them "motion pictures" and it was the dominate technology for nearly a hundred years; yet we were all being deceived as it was merely the "perception" of motion caused by persistence of vision that gave us the illusion of motion, despite the low 24fps frame rate.
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post #447 of 523 Old 08-23-2018, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racemaniac View Post
Now you're making me wondering. We're talking about display technology, what else matters beside what you perceive? The entire goal of many display technologies is tricking our eyes & brains to perceive certain things. If i perceive the 8 million pixels of a 4K display.... then it's a 4K display? O_o
You might want to contact Optotune directly and ask their engineering department why they describe their XPR-25 creating perceived 4K instead of true 4K. Or you could just accept the commonly understood truth that perception is not always reality. If you want to believe that certain perceptions are reality for you that's perfectly acceptable. We all do that to some degree even when it's not supported by science and engineering. As every good magician knows the human eye can be easily tricked, and who isn't entertained by a good sleight of hand performance?
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If I stick a Ferrari badge on a red sports car, does that make it a Ferrari?
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What Constitutes 4K?

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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
If I stick a Ferrari badge on a red sports car, does that make it a Ferrari?


Lol! This is a terrible analogy.

If I stick a Ferrari badge on a car that looks as good as a Ferrari, goes as well as a Ferrari, and handles as well as a Ferrari... do I even care anymore that it’s not a Ferrari?
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
Lol! This is a terrible analogy.

If I stick a Ferrari badge on a car that looks as good as a Ferrari, goes as well as a Ferrari, and handles as well as a Ferrari... do I even care anymore that it’s not a Ferrari?
And that's why this continues. Those are subjective evaluations rather than fact based.

Under close scrutiny, it's not a Ferrari, though some may think it is, and some may want it to be, but it isn't.
Ericglo likes this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elmalloc
Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

I trust Gary Lightfoot more than James Cameron.
Gary Lightfoot is offline  
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