Optoma UHD51A: 4K HDR 3D DLP Projector... w/ Alexa - Page 35 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1021 of 1816 Old 06-18-2018, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by tucsondave View Post
Actually not quite accurate:


https://www.optotune.com/products/beam-shifting


td
Thanks for helping expand the knowledge base and reduce the need for speculation about these XPR chips.
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post #1022 of 1816 Old 06-18-2018, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tucsondave View Post
Actually not quite accurate:


https://www.optotune.com/products/beam-shifting


td

Useful link. :-)



In the description of the product there is a pessimistic response time of 1.3ms which I'm going to assume means the window going from one extreme position to its opposite. (Although it could mean full cycle back to original state - ambiguous) Anyway, going with my pessimistic assumption that 1.3 is how long it takes for a full motion of the window we see some pretty good results. With 60hz video we have 16.666 ms to work with per frame. Divide that by 4 (2x2 for 1080p to 2160p) and we get 4.1666 ms. So during each 4.1666 ms interval we spend 1.3 ms getting to the destination and 2.8666 ms sitting there. That's 2.866ms/4.1666ms = about 69% of time with the pixel in the right place. (not horrible) So the window position for one axis over time in an ideal world would be a trapezoidal "squarish-wave" which could potentially make a lot of audible noise, especially at 60hz with harmonics. Going with sinusoidal motion on both axis would likely be quieter (perhaps much) and would also likely be less demanding on the hardware but would swoop about rather than stand still. (This has got to ask a lot of the color wheel too. Even with RGBRGB you end up needing to spin at least 120 times per second which is 7200rpm - I would expect to see a rainbow pattern up close as the projected pixel "wobulates") Boy, I wish I had a high speed camera, one that takes at least 500 frames per second so I could actually see what is getting projected. (Alas, my phone only goes up to 240fps but I'm going to see what I can observe with it. I wonder if I could build some kind of light chopper to effectively increase my frame-rate, but it too would have to spin wicked fast. Imagine trying to take pictures through specially made holes in a spinning Dremmel disk.) I'm going to have to look at pixel size, focus, and path here. Should be interesting. :-) 🦊
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post #1023 of 1816 Old 06-18-2018, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Tuan View Post
I was wrong - OTA only works using the other Wi-Fi USB port, not the Alexa one or Ethernet. We expect the OTA to go out starting next Wednesday. We'll also post the update package on our website.

I'll post an update when its available. I'm sorry for the difficult process, but there's nothing I can do about it :\.
@Tuan , Please add Echo to the list of flaky OS apps. For the past several days, when I start the projector, the projector no longer recognizes Echo commands unless I completely reinstall. That is in addition to the inability of the UHD5a to power on using Echo. Power on has never worked, even though my settings are exactly what the directions indicate.

Please communicate with us!
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post #1024 of 1816 Old 06-18-2018, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken McPherson View Post
@Tuan , Please add Echo to the list of flaky OS apps. For the past several days, when I start the projector, the projector no longer recognizes Echo commands unless I completely reinstall. That is in addition to the inability of the UHD5a to power on using Echo. Power on has never worked, even though my settings are exactly what the directions indicate.

Please communicate with us!
Are you using Wi-Fi? How's Wi-Fi reception?
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post #1025 of 1816 Old 06-18-2018, 02:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
But what is projected/displayed is always converted to 4:4:4 RGB in the end anyway. YUV 4:2:2 is just the signal being sent to the projector, not what's being displayed on screen that the camera will pick up. The projector or any display has to process whatever signal it gets back to RGBHV 4:4:4 for display.

YUV/YCbCr/YPbPr was created to reduce bandwidth for signal transport. Just as Composite and S-Video were with even more compression. Any one of these starts and ends with RGBHV.
If you try to pack a single 1080p frame, say, frame 0 at time 0 into the top left pixel of a 2160p frame's block of 4x4 pixels, and frame 1 into the top right, frame 2 in bottom left, frame 3 in bottom right, then taking that entire composite 2160p frame in RGB and compressing it to 4:2:2 for transmission over the wire will result in the horizontal chroma channels being blurred together, as that chroma information won't be correlated to the Y channel over time any longer.

You need 1:1 transmission over the wire to have crosstalk-free multi-frame tunneling to work fully. I'm not saying 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 won't work at all, but the chroma being blurred will also be blurred temporally in one axis only for 4:2:2, which will definitely show some kind of artifact when the 4 subframes are shown in sequence since the Y channel data will have moved in that time. Imagine a camera is turning. Suddenly the next frame's chroma has no relation to the luma at the same position.

Chroma subsampling in space will become chroma subsampling in space and time, and that will be worse. The four sub-frames, taken at different times could be VERY different. Think about it. 1:1 transmission over HDMI is absolutely necessary to get full 240hz tunneling (packing / unpacking)
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post #1026 of 1816 Old 06-18-2018, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by 3DBob View Post
Not a lens issue, but a resolution issue. The Optoma can appear sharper because the pixels can be focused on and seen, whereas the TK800 can't see them. But, if you look at the resolution detail, the Benq resolves more detail because the Optoma has "chunky pixels", which somehow are bigger than the Benq pixels. If you look at the icon-closeups I've included below, you will see the 3 colors soaring up in the middle of the icon (red arrow). Note they are 3 chunky colors on the Optoma, but more defined on the TK800. Benq has done some refinement to their XPR function. Is the average person going to notice, probably not, but I have a 160" screen, so it becomes more noticeable based on screen size. Don't confuse sharpness with resolution is what I'm saying.
Every time I see your comparison photos of that shoulder patch I wonder if the Optoma has been put in "silent" mode so it is only 1080P with XPR turned off. It just makes no sense that overlapping pixels can remain distinct as in the Optoma picture. Were these pics taken with the projectors or the source providing the "freeze frame" function ? It would be possible (if silly) for the projector to turn off the XPR when using a built-in freeze function, but unlikely if it was receiving a static image from a source device. The TK800 pic actually seems to show five bands in that part of the image, and it would be nice to have another picture pixel peeping the source on a native 4K monitor to know what is really there -- either the TK800 is manufacturing detail that isn't in the source, or the Optoma is losing detail.



I also wonder if this has anything to do with the speed of the camera taking the pics. A fast enough camera might capture just a single wobulation if the projector was using each 4ms wobulator position to build a single sampling subframe. A longer camera exposure would capture all four subframes overlapped and hide the pixel gaps -- which is what I would expect and what the TK800 pic shows. Assuming the camera settings were identical for both projectors, I don't see how anything in the wobulation scheme could account for the difference. The human eye should not be able to see distinct pixels when they are only there for 4ms before being overlaid, so did your eyes with the Optoma or did only the camera see it ?

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post #1027 of 1816 Old 06-18-2018, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuan View Post
Are you using Wi-Fi? How's Wi-Fi reception?
That was helpful. I went to Alexa wifi. It said "Not connected". Tried to re-connect; no luck, just a spinning wheel that timed out. Then I remembered someone else reporting he had to turn off power, pull the plug, pull dongle, restart projector, re-insert dongle. I did that, went to Alexa wifi and it connected right away. The Echo commands (except power on) are working again without doing anything else.

I have no clue whether the issue is software or hardware, but flaky wifi does appear to be the issue.

And thank you for responding so quickly! I hope this will help Optoma solve the problem.
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post #1028 of 1816 Old 06-18-2018, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamer View Post
Every time I see your comparison photos of that shoulder patch I wonder if the Optoma has been put in "silent" mode so it is only 1080P with XPR turned off. It just makes no sense that overlapping pixels can remain distinct as in the Optoma picture. Were these pics taken with the projectors or the source providing the "freeze frame" function ? It would be possible (if silly) for the projector to turn off the XPR when using a built-in freeze function, but unlikely if it was receiving a static image from a source device. The TK800 pic actually seems to show five bands in that part of the image, and it would be nice to have another picture pixel peeping the source on a native 4K monitor to know what is really there -- either the TK800 is manufacturing detail that isn't in the source, or the Optoma is losing detail.



I also wonder if this has anything to do with the speed of the camera taking the pics. A fast enough camera might capture just a single wobulation if the projector was using each 4ms wobulator position to build a single sampling subframe. A longer camera exposure would capture all four subframes overlapped and hide the pixel gaps -- which is what I would expect and what the TK800 pic shows. Assuming the camera settings were identical for both projectors, I don't see how anything in the wobulation scheme could account for the difference. The human eye should not be able to see distinct pixels when they are only there for 4ms before being overlaid, so did your eyes with the Optoma or did only the camera see it ?
This is my shot at explaining this once and for all. These were all taken with a Samsung 8 cellphone camera. Shutter was purposely slow. All shots were taken on pause, but I also looked up close to the active video and saw the same thing. The sharpness ringing is actually the slight misalignment of the colors due to the color management system used. The colors tend to be more aligned in the center of the image. These were taken in the upper left corner about 1 foot away from the screen. And now for the surprise, I have added a shot of the Optoma UHD65 that I took 6 months ago and forgot about. Same conditions. The image is more like the Benq as you can see. This is the best I can/could do. I am not trying to deter anyone from the Optoma 51A. In my mind it all just suggests the Benq XPR implementation is more like the UHD65, which has been considered sharper than the UHD50. It's all subjective when you add in HDR, gamma, etc. The images are labeled so enjoy and feel free to download if you can.
For you doubting types, I included a 1080p image taken of my Optoma HD29. Same screen, same image size as the others.
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Last edited by 3DBob; 06-18-2018 at 04:42 PM.
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post #1029 of 1816 Old 06-18-2018, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by dreamer View Post
Every time I see your comparison photos of that shoulder patch I wonder if the Optoma has been put in "silent" mode so it is only 1080P with XPR turned off.
By Silent mode, do you mean Eco brigthness settings?
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post #1030 of 1816 Old 06-19-2018, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Paganmoon View Post
By Silent mode, do you mean Eco brigthness settings?
No, I mean a mode that turns off the 4k wobulator and produces only 1080p resolution -- just like it does for 3D.

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post #1031 of 1816 Old 06-19-2018, 12:49 AM
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I'm still researching for my next projector. My most recent issue in testing projectors is rainbows. Ive had an H31 then an HD33 and I never saw rainbows with them. I tried out a GT1080darbee and hd29darbee and saw rainbows for the first time - especially in white subtitles or anytime I move me head left and right and it was very distracting. Back when I researched before I would see color wheel speed listed as 2x, 3x etc but I don't see that anymore. Is the color wheel speed/rainbows on t his UHD51a closer to that of my previous HD33 or more like those on the hd29/gt1010 as far as my potential of seeing rainbows?
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post #1032 of 1816 Old 06-19-2018, 03:02 AM
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Originally Posted by dreamer View Post
No, I mean a mode that turns off the 4k wobulator and produces only 1080p resolution -- just like it does for 3D.
Hmm, I don't think I've seen such a setting when I've been poking around the menus.
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post #1033 of 1816 Old 06-19-2018, 05:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Paganmoon View Post
Hmm, I don't think I've seen such a setting when I've been poking around the menus.
It is part of the TI XPR package. Optoma may not have implemented it. What happens if you choose 3D mode when the source isn't 3D ? Because 3D MUST turn off XPR.
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post #1034 of 1816 Old 06-19-2018, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by dreamer View Post
No, I mean a mode that turns off the 4k wobulator and produces only 1080p resolution -- just like it does for 3D.
First, remember that the comparison was with the UHD50, not the UHD51A. The UHD50 does not have silent function like the Benq to turn off the XPR. It can be turned off by going into 3D mode, but then you also get a reddish-white screen flash and then it tries to interpret the video input as 3D. What I took were images in 4K. I included in my post a 1080p image, which you can clearly see, is much chunkier and bigger pixels than the UHD50 sample.

See the new example below. I put the UHD50 4K image next to the 1080p image, and this really gets interesting. There is clearly more detail in the 4K image and you can see smaller pixels, but there is an underlying pixel shape in both of them that looks like the XPR emphasized the underlying 1080 pixels in the overlap. I over-enhanced these images to show the pixel outline more clearly. In the image straight out of the camera, it's not that obvious, so take that into consideration.
I am not trying to unsell the 51A, just trying to settle the argument posed by the review that compared the UHD50 to the Benq HT2550 and said the UHD50 was obviously sharper. Sharper? maybe enhanced contrast at the pixel level, but subtle detail resolution is lost. Again this is with 160" screen. You are not going to notice this difference on a 120"-130" screen.
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post #1035 of 1816 Old 06-19-2018, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by dreamer View Post
It is part of the TI XPR package. Optoma may not have implemented it. What happens if you choose 3D mode when the source isn't 3D ? Because 3D MUST turn off XPR.
Without a 3D source, it auto-toggles back to non-3D.
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post #1036 of 1816 Old 06-19-2018, 12:39 PM
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For the first time in my experience, Echo command: "Turn on projector" worked this morning.
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@Ken McPherson have you started calibrating yet? could you get "below black" to work without switching to YUV color space?
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post #1038 of 1816 Old 06-19-2018, 02:46 PM
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@Ken McPherson have you started calibrating yet? could you get "below black" to work without switching to YUV color space?
Nope. Way down the road for me.
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Originally Posted by Paganmoon View Post
@Ken McPherson have you started calibrating yet? could you get "below black" to work without switching to YUV color space?

P-moon,

Below black works for me on both YUV and RGB. Of course you must feed it with a 0-255 input signal.
Also using DVE HD calibration disk I found that setting Red gain in the "Color Match" menu to -7 helped with red clipping.


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Originally Posted by 3DBob View Post
First, remember that the comparison was with the UHD50, not the UHD51A. The UHD50 does not have silent function like the Benq to turn off the XPR. It can be turned off by going into 3D mode, but then you also get a reddish-white screen flash and then it tries to interpret the video input as 3D. What I took were images in 4K. I included in my post a 1080p image, which you can clearly see, is much chunkier and bigger pixels than the UHD50 sample.

See the new example below. I put the UHD50 4K image next to the 1080p image, and this really gets interesting. There is clearly more detail in the 4K image and you can see smaller pixels, but there is an underlying pixel shape in both of them that looks like the XPR emphasized the underlying 1080 pixels in the overlap. I over-enhanced these images to show the pixel outline more clearly. In the image straight out of the camera, it's not that obvious, so take that into consideration.
I am not trying to unsell the 51A, just trying to settle the argument posed by the review that compared the UHD50 to the Benq HT2550 and said the UHD50 was obviously sharper. Sharper? maybe enhanced contrast at the pixel level, but subtle detail resolution is lost. Again this is with 160" screen. You are not going to notice this difference on a 120"-130" screen.


I tested both the Benq TK800 and Optoma UHD 50 and I have pretty similar findings. On the TK800 image, everything is pretty smooth with no distinctive pixels visible even looking very up close. But the UHD 50 however, looking similar to my old Benq 2050, has very distinctive pixel grid. TK800 image feels more high res to me.
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All of the testing have been with the UHD50.I would like to see someone tackle the UHD51A with the same tests. Are there any UHD patterns on youtube that is worth testing with?
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The code for ISF modes: Power off, up, down, up, up.
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So I just received the UHD51 (without Alexa):

I can definitely see a pronounced pixel grid (same as in the picture posted above), will try to upload a picture when I get home.

The first impressions are good, but I am still contemplating to send it back and get a Benq W1700 (HT2550) instead. The 400€ price difference is kind of bothering me. I do not have any good options to compare them and have not seen any reviews comparing them yet. 4K HDR does look really good, but I am not blown away. (This may just be personal opinion as I def. am not as blown away as getting the W1070.) I had two friends watch Planet earth 2 in 4k and they loved it. Playing Fifa on a PS4 seemed good enough for our skill level. Will try to see what the Pro melee player I know says to the input lag. (Need to buy some stuff to connect the gamecube).

Watching Guardians of the galaxy 2 and Black panther was a nice experience. Though fine-tuning the picture was somewhat difficult.

Yeah the light boarder is huge! To be honest at first I was slightly confused as to why the picture did not go to the corner. Totally forgot about it!

The speakers were what amazed me the most about the beamer They sound pretty decent. Coming from my Klipsch sound system, I was pleasantly surprised.

Now this all sounds bad, but it is mostly because it just did not blow me away immediately. I may start to love after some calibration and proper setup.

Anyone here had a chance to compare it to the Benq W1700 (HT2550)? Would really appreciate any feedback.
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For owners who use an Apple 4K tv, I noticed when switching from app to app, let's say from NetFlix to Vudu, the projector sort of thinks it is switching sources so I get this black screen for maybe 3 - 5 seconds. Anybody else experiencing this? Sometimes within the same app when you switch from movie to movie I get this behavior too.
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Originally Posted by ken802 View Post
For owners who use an Apple 4K tv, I noticed when switching from app to app, let's say from NetFlix to Vudu, the projector sort of thinks it is switching sources so I get this black screen for maybe 3 - 5 seconds. Anybody else experiencing this? Sometimes within the same app when you switch from movie to movie I get this behavior too.
Could it be switching to and from HDR, or switching refreshrates?
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post #1046 of 1816 Old 06-20-2018, 08:29 AM
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I just received my UHD51 ..and I saw that there is no air filter.
it's normal?

thank you

VPR: Optoma UHD51, schermo: Elite Screens Saker Tab-Tension 135". TV: Sony KD 65" XD8599. CAM: TivùSat GoldHD 4k. Sinto AV: Pioneer SC-LX59, SORGENTI: Pioneer BDP450, Xbox One X, MySkyHD. DIFFUSORI: B&W CDM7se (front), B&W HTM7 (centrale), Canton GLE 416.2 (surr.), Canton GLE 416 (surr. back), Canton GLE 416 (Atmos), SVS PB1000 (sub). Remote: Logitech Harmony Elite
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post #1047 of 1816 Old 06-20-2018, 08:30 AM
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Yes

Display: Optoma UHD51A Projector > Elite Screens R135WH1 ezFrame | 7.2.4 Audio: Onkyo TX-RZ920 9.2ch Network A/V Receiver, M-5010 2ch Amplifier; Definitive Technology ProCenter 2000, ProMonitor 1000(x10), SuperCube I & 4000 | Sources: PC, DirecTV, Apple 4K, Fire Stick 4K, Oppo UDP-203, Chromecast & Roku Ultras, Xbox One X, PlayStation 4 Pro & Nintendo Switch | Remote: Harmony Elite | HDMI: 40' Monoprice DynamicView+4x1 Switch
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post #1048 of 1816 Old 06-20-2018, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Hester View Post
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VPR: Optoma UHD51, schermo: Elite Screens Saker Tab-Tension 135". TV: Sony KD 65" XD8599. CAM: TivùSat GoldHD 4k. Sinto AV: Pioneer SC-LX59, SORGENTI: Pioneer BDP450, Xbox One X, MySkyHD. DIFFUSORI: B&W CDM7se (front), B&W HTM7 (centrale), Canton GLE 416.2 (surr.), Canton GLE 416 (surr. back), Canton GLE 416 (Atmos), SVS PB1000 (sub). Remote: Logitech Harmony Elite
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post #1049 of 1816 Old 06-20-2018, 08:49 AM
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According to the manual, "Dust filters are only required/supplied in the selected regions with excessive dust." Which exact regions I don't know.
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Display: Optoma UHD51A Projector > Elite Screens R135WH1 ezFrame | 7.2.4 Audio: Onkyo TX-RZ920 9.2ch Network A/V Receiver, M-5010 2ch Amplifier; Definitive Technology ProCenter 2000, ProMonitor 1000(x10), SuperCube I & 4000 | Sources: PC, DirecTV, Apple 4K, Fire Stick 4K, Oppo UDP-203, Chromecast & Roku Ultras, Xbox One X, PlayStation 4 Pro & Nintendo Switch | Remote: Harmony Elite | HDMI: 40' Monoprice DynamicView+4x1 Switch
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post #1050 of 1816 Old 06-20-2018, 09:11 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tucsondave View Post
Actually not quite accurate:


https://www.optotune.com/products/beam-shifting


td

Great info and link, thanks! I'm pretty sure I was told otherwise by an engineer. Could there possibly be two different ways to skin this cat? I had thought @Kris Deering said the same thing too in a different discussion.



Quote:
Originally Posted by BattleAxeVR View Post
If you try to pack a single 1080p frame, say, frame 0 at time 0 into the top left pixel of a 2160p frame's block of 4x4 pixels, and frame 1 into the top right, frame 2 in bottom left, frame 3 in bottom right, then taking that entire composite 2160p frame in RGB and compressing it to 4:2:2 for transmission over the wire will result in the horizontal chroma channels being blurred together, as that chroma information won't be correlated to the Y channel over time any longer.



You need 1:1 transmission over the wire to have crosstalk-free multi-frame tunneling to work fully. I'm not saying 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 won't work at all, but the chroma being blurred will also be blurred temporally in one axis only for 4:2:2, which will definitely show some kind of artifact when the 4 subframes are shown in sequence since the Y channel data will have moved in that time. Imagine a camera is turning. Suddenly the next frame's chroma has no relation to the luma at the same position.



Chroma subsampling in space will become chroma subsampling in space and time, and that will be worse. The four sub-frames, taken at different times could be VERY different. Think about it. 1:1 transmission over HDMI is absolutely necessary to get full 240hz tunneling (packing / unpacking)

OK but what we are talking about is what is coming out of the lens of the projector and being captured by the camera and that is upconverted and processed RGB 4:4:4 video, even if it is being sent YUV 4:2:2 over the HDMI cable to its input, right?
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