BenQ TK800 Announced. - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 754 Old 04-13-2018, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
1.03 firmware has working 3D. The gray border issue cannot be fixed as it is an aspect of the .47 Texas Instruments DMD that powers this and other affordable 4K projectors such as the Optoma UHD50 and Viewsonic PX727-4K.
They could "fix" it by allowing you to select a color for the border other than grey. Neon blue or red would mimic the backlit look.

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post #32 of 754 Old 04-14-2018, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by dreamer View Post
They could "fix" it by allowing you to select a color for the border other than grey. Neon blue or red would mimic the backlit look.
That would require the dmd be active(border pixels) which they are not. You would see a hit in both on/off and ANSI Lumens that this platform .47 dmd can not afford. Both are already dreadful and you want to make matters worse just for bias lighting?
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post #33 of 754 Old 04-14-2018, 12:39 AM
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That would require the dmd be active(border pixels) which they are not. You would see a hit in both on/off and ANSI Lumens that this platform .47 dmd can not afford. Both are already dreadful and you want to make matters worse just for bias lighting?
These are not typical border pixels. This is a native 2048x1200 chip, with the center 1920x1080 being used. Do you have some reference that shows TI has locked firmware out from addressing those other mirrors ? Bias lighting IMPROVES perceived contrast of an image, and if people don't like it they can always choose the same grey that is currently their only "choice". What exactly is your objection to people having a choice ?

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post #34 of 754 Old 04-14-2018, 11:39 AM
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I'm a little behind but I'm planning on getting mine setup tonight.
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post #35 of 754 Old 04-14-2018, 11:58 AM
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Anyone had a chance to play with these yet?


Yes!

Last night I really dug in and played with the TK800. I was super impressed! Knowing about the RGBW color wheel going in I didn’t have super high expectations for picture quality but right out of the box I thought the image was bright and unexpectedly punchy.

I put the HT2550 and TK800 on an HDMI splitter side by side. I reset both of their Cinema modes to factory. I noticed the factory default for Brilliant Color was set to ‘On’ unlike the HT2550. I set the HT2550’S Brilliant Color to On as well then calibrated the brightness and contrast on each.

The colors on the HT2550 were more natural in 1080p and 4K HDR content but when I asked my wife, she preferred the TK800 image in all 5 tests I showed her. And I don’t blame her! The TK800 is a brighter but surprisingly delivers a colorful and punchy image. HDR content benefited from this immensely. The perceived contrast is actually very good on this projector due to the extra lumens.

I will work on my full review for later but I want to be clear: the HT2550 is still the affordable 4K color accuracy King for me, but this TK800 has so far been a super performer with brightness and producing a great punchy image in a space with ambient light.

I’m hosting a 30-strong party tomorrow for the NBA playoffs. Utah vs OKC. I swapped out the HT2550 for the TK800 for the party since I knew it was suited for this type of thing: Sports parties with ambient light and people coming in and out of the theater. I’ll also be hosting a backyard movie party with the TK800 so I’m looking forward to reporting how it performs in that regard.

Only thing tonite so far is that my TK800 unit is a bit louder than my HT2550. The color wheel makes a bit of noise.

Onward and upward! I would recommend snagging this thing if you need a bright punchy 4K projector for a space with ambient lighting. It’s a ton of fun.

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post #36 of 754 Old 04-14-2018, 12:16 PM
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@scottyroo : That was an inspired review. I was just wondering how the 3D looks. The extra brightness should make a big difference. It's my biggest worry now for the Optoms UHD 51a. Because of the size of my screen, I might have to opt for TK800 for the 3D difference.
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post #37 of 754 Old 04-14-2018, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyroo View Post
... The colors on the HT2550 were more natural in 1080p and 4K HDR content but when I asked my wife, she preferred the TK800 image in all 5 tests I showed her. And I don’t blame her! ...
This is really pretty common. I see it all the time when I visit other people's homes and see their LCD TVs set to display bright, unnatural colors. It really come down to whether one has a preference for getting the most natural looking image so viewing the screen is like looking out the window into the real world or an exaggerated, punchy image that screams "since I'm not really a window into the real world anyway go ahead and turn me into whatever fantasy world turns you on."

It's like those discussions over in the Speakers section where forum members discuss their preferences for either the most natural sounding speaker or one that's punchier. There's really no right or wrong in these types of decisions as long as those who are doing the listening or viewing are getting the performance they prefer. The thing that gets old is when someone comes along and tries to tell someone else that there's only one way that's right and they're doing it wrong.
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post #38 of 754 Old 04-14-2018, 07:12 PM
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I got mine up and going tonight as well. I will say that, with similar advertised max brightness, it doesn't quite seem to have the same lumen output as my Epson 3000 (both set to Cinema and Eco Lamp). That said, it definitely does edge it out in terms of sharpness/resolution and there wasn't any perceivable decrease in black levels as I had expected. I'm having some noise issues with UHD Blu-Ray from my Samsun K8500... it was really noticeable on Snoke's face in Last Jedi, but present on the UHD Vudu stream from my Shield TV. I may try to swap in a different UHD Blu-Ray player before I get work up a full review.

Another issue I'm having that is completely due to my placement/mounting (and the lack of lens shift) is that I do have to use -3 keystone which is giving about 1" of image spill/overscan on left/right when zoomed to fill the height of my screen. With my Epson 3000, I had generous lens shift to eliminate the need for any keystone correction and did not have this problem at all. The need for a decent amount of keystone also means the grey border issue is further exacerbated, but I've not found it distracting once a movie/show/game is going (dark brown wall, 2.5" velvet screen border).

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post #39 of 754 Old 04-15-2018, 12:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamer View Post
These are not typical border pixels. This is a native 2048x1200 chip, with the center 1920x1080 being used. Do you have some reference that shows TI has locked firmware out from addressing those other mirrors ? Bias lighting IMPROVES perceived contrast of an image, and if people don't like it they can always choose the same grey that is currently their only "choice". What exactly is your objection to people having a choice ?
These micromirrors are called the Pond of Micromirrors. 84 on top/bottom and 80 sides.That is what I call the border area.

Biased lighting is any light source that illuminates just the wall or surfaces behind your screen. What you are proposing is having the opposite of biased lighting.What you propose is adding lumens directly while never adding to the ambient light environment. The eyes iris will never close a little from the open wide position. The eye’s iris is biased by the ambient light. The reason biased lighting is used behind the screen is to limit the color interference that a direct view would add to the picture.Biased lighting adds ambient light to the environment. Direct view border adds no ambient light. A red bias light will make the color appear bluer.Blue biased light would make the picture more red. What you want is your bias lights to be D65 compliant. The SMPTE Recommended Practice document says the brightness of a bias light as reflected off the surface behind the TV should be less than 10% of the peak white level on the viewing device.

The POM micromirrors are technically electrically charged to be in the off position. You will now switch them to a On cycle. You want a red but how does one address these micromirrors to always be red. Yet by having the micromirrors in the On position you risk a Off stuck pixel. You never want colored bias lighting to begin with. The SMPTE Recommended Practice document says the brightness of a bias light as reflected off the surface behind the TV should be less than 10% of the peak white level on the viewing device. How do you adjust the border area to in the On position at less than 10% of peak white level? What you want is CIE D65 standard illuminant. Your use of biased lighting is incorrect on how it works IMO.
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post #40 of 754 Old 04-15-2018, 09:25 AM
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... The POM micromirrors are technically electrically charged to be in the off position. You will now switch them to a On cycle. ...
I'm not 100% clear on whether you are actually suggesting trying to switch on the POM, in which case the question becomes whether or not it's even possible for an end user to switch on the POM. In TI's technical notes it states the following:

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The structure and qualities of the border around the active array includes a band of partially functional micromirrors referred to as the Pond Of Mirrors (POM). These micromirrors are structurally and/or electrically prevented from tilting toward the bright or ON state but still require an electrical bias to tilt toward the OFF state.
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post #41 of 754 Old 04-15-2018, 12:49 PM
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Can we get back on topic lol. I feel like this is for a completely different discussion outside of how this projector looks and performs.

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post #42 of 754 Old 04-15-2018, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
I'm not 100% clear on whether you are actually suggesting trying to switch on the POM, in which case the question becomes whether or not it's even possible for an end user to switch on the POM. In TI's technical notes it states the following:
I believe one cannot change the pom's state. I was responding hypothetically on how difficult it would be to do so. Dreamer wants to turn On the POM to either red or blue to mimic biased lighting. My response is that Dreamer's definition of biased lighting is wrong.For one fact biased lighting is reflected ambient light.The illumination should originate from behind the frontal plane of the screen to avoid reflections, haze, and glare (which interfere with, contaminate, and obscure the image).What Dreamer believes is that the POM border can achieve the same results as biased lighting. He mentions that he prefers either red or blue. I responded that red or blue biased lighting is wrong in that the red will contaminate the picture towards blue and the blue will contaminate the picture towards red. Then one has to be able to dial in your bias lights to be D65 compliant. The SMPTE Recommended Practice document says the brightness of a bias light as reflected off the surface behind the TV should be less than 10% of the peak white level on the viewing device. By having the POM lit up you have no reflected light. No reflected light means one does not get any benefit from the lighting of the POM's.Lighting the POM's will only reduce the saturation of the primaries.By illuminating the POM to red or blue or any color will only diminish the picture and no biased benefits such as perceived contrast improvements or reduction in eye strain will ever occur. These benefits only occur with ambient light and even then only at a CIE D65 standard illuminate.

"If the numerical aperture exceeds the micromirror tilt angle, or if the projection numerical aperture angle is more than two degrees larger
than the illumination numerical aperture angle, objectionable artifacts in the display border and/or active area could occur."

What we have here is an unknown. Are the POM"s location outside the apertures angle?
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post #43 of 754 Old 04-15-2018, 07:57 PM
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Can we get back on topic lol. I feel like this is for a completely different discussion outside of how this projector looks and performs.

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Your ignorance on the subject matter shows you do not know a pertinent discussion when you see one. For this projector on/off ranges from 310:1 to barely 1000:1 depending on whether one chooses normal or economic settings. Bias lighting would greatly help in eye strain(3000 lumens) and improving the perception of deeper blacks. For any projector that suffers from dismal on/off bias lighting is encouraged to help the user perceive blacker blacks.So the discussion is very pertinent to this projector. That 10k;1 is a bogus contrast reading. Even if it is dynamic contrast reading that result will be losing details in white while also losing detail in the black IMO. So for the end user any discussion of bias lighting is pertinent for any .47 TI DMD projector. Correcting a users comments and explaining what bias lighting is very important information for a buyer of this projector to know so that they can help mitigate the lousy blacks this projector has. Now I personally would not use bias lighting but people much smarter than I recommend its use: namely Joe Kane.
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post #44 of 754 Old 04-15-2018, 08:21 PM
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Your ignorance on the subject matter shows you do not know a pertinent discussion when you see one. For this projector on/off ranges from 310:1 to barely 1000:1 depending on whether one chooses normal or economic settings. Bias lighting would greatly help in eye strain(3000 lumens) and improving the perception of deeper blacks. For any projector that suffers from dismal on/off bias lighting is encouraged to help the user perceive blacker blacks.So the discussion is very pertinent to this projector. That 10k;1 is a bogus contrast reading. Even if it is dynamic contrast reading that result will be losing details in white while also losing detail in the black IMO. So for the end user any discussion of bias lighting is pertinent for any .47 TI DMD projector. Correcting a users comments and explaining what bias lighting is very important information for a buyer of this projector to know so that they can help mitigate the lousy blacks this projector has. Now I personally would not use bias lighting but people much smarter than I recommend its use: namely Joe Kane.
I think he was talking about all of that crazy pointless "technical" BS about changing the border colors and the border pixels vs the actual performance.

Obviously contrast measurements are valid discussion, and I don't think he was referring to not talking about contrast numbers.

Calling someone ignorant on this forum seems to be like a rite of passage or something..

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post #45 of 754 Old 04-15-2018, 08:28 PM
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It seems that this will be the model BenQ releases a short throw version of. If anyone hears anything on a 4k short throw, please make a new thread about it.

Thanks!
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post #46 of 754 Old 04-15-2018, 08:31 PM
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I think he was talking about all of that crazy pointless "technical" BS about changing the border colors and the border pixels vs the actual performance.

Obviously contrast measurements are valid discussion, and I don't think he was referring to not talking about contrast numbers.

Calling someone ignorant on this forum seems to be like a rite of passage or something..

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Thank you I was just writing up a long winded response but, this sums it up perfectly. The whole technical discussion about changing border colors (biased lighting) is something you guys have every right to discuss however, that issue is with every single .47 projector currently. I do not see the need to muddy up this thread when this is just 1 of 8 or so currently out.

Maybe I am the minority in this case but, I feel a lot of forum members coming in to this thread to read "Specifically" about the TK800 do not care about bias lighting. They want to know how it performs and what other members general take/thoughts are on this model.

Coug its a forum and you are welcome to do anything the admins deem acceptable. I was just putting out a simple request that is all. Do as you deem fit.
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post #47 of 754 Old 04-15-2018, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by longhornsk57 View Post

Obviously contrast measurements are valid discussion, and I don't think he was referring to not talking about contrast numbers.


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The discussion relates directly to contrast of this specific projector. Bias lighting used correctly on this poor on/off contrast projector does help mitigate the perceived on/off contrast. So yes the technical was necessary unless you are for falsely reported information to be repeated on this forum Ad nauseam. And I reported correctly how the bias works or someone will correct me if I am posting the wrong information.And look at my join date Idiot Rite of passage is for newbies.
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post #48 of 754 Old 04-15-2018, 10:43 PM
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I don't know understand a word you said about that bias thingy. But I'm just a user, not a tech. What I can say for sure I'll never want to deal with it and don't care about its existence even if it's very important.

I think this thread would be most enjoyable for all if we would move this highly technical and not understandable for 99% of people talk to a specific very technical thread for those "in the know" (you can start one) and keep this one to general discussion of user's impressions and common pj features.

These "pro" arguments really clog up and ruin threads as only maybe 1 in a 100 people can understand what the hell is being discussed.

So please add my vote to "let's keep it clean and simple"
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post #49 of 754 Old 04-15-2018, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3DBob View Post
@scottyroo : That was an inspired review. I was just wondering how the 3D looks. The extra brightness should make a big difference. It's my biggest worry now for the Optoms UHD 51a. Because of the size of my screen, I might have to opt for TK800 for the 3D difference.
Does it have frame interpolation? Benq site doesn't mention it...
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post #50 of 754 Old 04-15-2018, 11:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by film113 View Post
SBS, grey borders fixed? Was it via firmware update?
1.03 firmware has working 3D. The gray border issue cannot be fixed as it is an aspect of the .47 Texas Instruments DMD that powers this and other affordable 4K projectors such as the Optoma UHD50 and Viewsonic PX727-4K.
Thanks. Did not know those 2 units have the border issues as well.
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post #51 of 754 Old 04-16-2018, 02:34 PM
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Some of the newer forum members may not be aware that the S in AVS Forum is for Science as in AV Science. Much of the current popularity of this site is based on the foundation built by those who came here over the years looking for more AV technical data than is available at typical consumer sites. So historically it's not unusual for general discussions about a specific item like a projector model to include side trips into various areas of related AV science.

Most of these side trips are brief and end after a point has been made. Occasionally a long debate can ensue and in those instances it's perfectly acceptable and even desirable to ask that the side discussion be taken to its own separate thread. In this case the side issue has been brief and appeared to be over, and complaining about it only had the effect of extending it to where we are now.

We all come into the AV world with a different mix of interests from general to highly technical and need to understand that this forum does not revolve around the specific interests of any person or small group. Not everyone is going to find every post in every thread on topic for what they're specifically looking for. But if we all complained about everything we don't find interesting the forum would become unreadable. So we all need to show a little patience and tolerance for what others may find more interesting than us just as we expect others to have the same patience and tolerance for our specific areas of interest.
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post #52 of 754 Old 04-16-2018, 03:45 PM
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Thanks. Did not know those 2 units have the border issues as well.


So far every projector equipped with this DMD has had the border. JVC has just announced a new projector based on this chip so it will be interesting to see if it has it as well.

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post #53 of 754 Old 04-16-2018, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
So far every projector equipped with this DMD has had the border. JVC has just announced a new projector based on this chip so it will be interesting to see if it has it as well.
I believe the jvc site even states that the border is normal and not to be worried. Or at least that's what I thought i read on the thread on the jvc

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post #54 of 754 Old 04-16-2018, 05:11 PM
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I didn't know JVC ever used dlp

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post #55 of 754 Old 04-16-2018, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
Some of the newer forum members may not be aware that the S in AVS Forum is for Science as in AV Science. Much of the current popularity of this site is based on the foundation built by those who came here over the years looking for more AV technical data than is available at typical consumer sites. So historically it's not unusual for general discussions about a specific item like a projector model to include side trips into various areas of related AV science.

Most of these side trips are brief and end after a point has been made. Occasionally a long debate can ensue and in those instances it's perfectly acceptable and even desirable to ask that the side discussion be taken to its own separate thread. In this case the side issue has been brief and appeared to be over, and complaining about it only had the effect of extending it to where we are now.

We all come into the AV world with a different mix of interests from general to highly technical and need to understand that this forum does not revolve around the specific interests of any person or small group. Not everyone is going to find every post in every thread on topic for what they're specifically looking for. But if we all complained about everything we don't find interesting the forum would become unreadable. So we all need to show a little patience and tolerance for what others may find more interesting than us just as we expect others to have the same patience and tolerance for our specific areas of interest.
For me it's not about the tech talk and more about derailing.

In almost every new PJ thread you get the same "it's not real 4K" diversions and the "it's not JVC contrast" stuff then THAT goes into technical talk about something disrelated to the thread.

In this instance something as seemingly inane as going balls deep into the various ramifications and advanced science behind border pixels would be a bit trivial vs the "science" of something like the color wheels or contrast trade off or possible ways to convert the 3D to RF etc,

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post #56 of 754 Old 04-16-2018, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by longhornsk57 View Post
For me it's not about the tech talk and more about derailing.

In almost every new PJ thread you get the same "it's not real 4K" diversions and the "it's not JVC contrast" stuff then THAT goes into technical talk about something disrelated to the thread.

In this instance something as seemingly inane as going balls deep into the various ramifications and advanced science behind border pixels would be a bit trivial vs the "science" of something like the color wheels or contrast trade off or possible ways to convert the 3D to RF etc,

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My last take is one can have a projector discussion that takes the projector and using established science that can improve the deficiencies that projector has when used properly. Correcting disinformation is critical to a forum's long term survival. Otherwise one is left with only the superficial fan boy posters. I have no problem with DLP projectors as I have owned over 7 Dlp's and one Lcd projector. My current projector is a Samsung spa 900 DLP .95 dmd 4. I know what good contrast looks like. I also know how bad a lot of these .47dmd's contrast is. I would definitely recommend for any owner of such projector to implement Bias lighting properly for this projector just to help compensate for the awful contrast. Done properly the perceived contrast improvements will greatly contribute to a better picture. So no one is saying anything about not buying this projector.What we are saying is that properly instituted Bias lighting will take the perceived contrast to another level. If the forum wants to hold their heads in the sand and not take every criticism as denigrating a DLP,there are many fanboys that will only tell what you want to hear. For everyone else, they might learn something and expand their projector knowledge. One will never know when new information might be helpful now,but might become applicable in the future. I am looking for a new 4k Dlp projector such as the Vivitek DK8500Z or the Benq LK970. Both projectors are out of this forum's price ceiling and both use the new TI .66 XPR DLP chip. I want the high lumens so I am willing to accept the black levels that these projectors have. So I hold no grudges against JVC nor Sony and never stated that one should buy them in this thread. I also know that these projectors need all the help they can get when it comes to the contrast. And for one to denigrate forum posters who only discuss the, how to and how not to, use established science to better the parameters of a projector is not what AVS forum is about.
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post #57 of 754 Old 04-16-2018, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by coug7669 View Post
My last take is one can have a projector discussion that takes the projector and using established science that can improve the deficiencies that projector has when used properly. Correcting disinformation is critical to a forum's long term survival. Otherwise one is left with only the superficial fan boy posters. I have no problem with DLP projectors as I have owned over 7 Dlp's and one Lcd projector. My current projector is a Samsung spa 900 DLP .95 dmd 4. I know what good contrast looks like. I also know how bad a lot of these .47dmd's contrast is. I would definitely recommend for any owner of such projector to implement Bias lighting properly for this projector just to help compensate for the awful contrast. Done properly the perceived contrast improvements will greatly contribute to a better picture. So no one is saying anything about not buying this projector.What we are saying is that properly instituted Bias lighting will take the perceived contrast to another level. If the forum wants to hold their heads in the sand and not take every criticism as denigrating a DLP,there are many fanboys that will only tell what you want to hear. For everyone else, they might learn something and expand their projector knowledge. One will never know when new information might be helpful now,but might become applicable in the future. I am looking for a new 4k Dlp projector such as the Vivitek DK8500Z or the Benq LK970. Both projectors are out of this forum's price ceiling and both use the new TI .66 XPR DLP chip. I want the high lumens so I am willing to accept the black levels that these projectors have. So I hold no grudges against JVC nor Sony and never stated that one should buy them in this thread. I also know that these projectors need all the help they can get when it comes to the contrast. And for one to denigrate forum posters who only discuss the, how to and how not to, use established science to better the parameters of a projector is not what AVS forum is about.
Yeah I mean that's fine.

If you read my post you'll see I'm not going against any actually useful conversation about the projector, only enlightening you on how sometimes these can go astray to non sequitur type excursions.

If you want to correct disinformation about the .47" DMDs nobody here seems to have a problem with that so have at it.

I'm debating getting this so I'm definitely interested.

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post #58 of 754 Old 04-17-2018, 06:25 AM
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On this and every other discussion forum on the web we all skip over many posts that don't happen to be of particular interest to us even though they may be of interest to others. It would be chaos if everyone objected to comments that weren't of specific interest to them. Minor conversation drift is an accepted norm on every discussion forum. Only when it rises to a high level does it require special attention. For example, the 4K discussion used to get heated in many threads and many objected so a separate thread was started to off-load 4K serious discussion. That worked pretty well and extended 4K discussions rarely break out in individual projector model threads any more. The system works as long as everyone exercises good judgment along with patience and tolerance for different points of view.
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post #59 of 754 Old 04-17-2018, 06:34 AM
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Can someone wade out of the pixel pond and check out 3D on the TK800.... Thanks.
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post #60 of 754 Old 04-17-2018, 07:12 AM
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I would, but I sold my DLP Link glasses along with my Viewsonic H1180HD a few months back.

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