Should I dump my Sony VPL-HW45ES projector for one of the new 4K projectors? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 26 Old 03-12-2018, 09:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Should I dump my Sony VPL-HW45ES projector for one of the new 4K projectors?

Just wondering if its worth selling my Sony 45ES projector.I seem to favor more of a brighter picture. I always set my projectors to the bright setting, because it seems to make the picture very sharp looking. Looking for some opinions on this.
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post #2 of 26 Old 03-12-2018, 11:10 AM
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I'd wait for other's to provide their opinions before you come to a decision, because they will have more knowledge than I do, but it sounds like the projector you have now you never should have purchased. If you favor a bright image over accurate color's and black level/shadow detail then the Sony was the wrong projector for you. The 45Es' lumen count is lower than most projector's. The Sony is also at its best when used on low lamp mode because the black level detail is much increased over running on normal lamp mode.

From what I have gathered over the years, Epson makes some of the brightest projector's around. You may want to check out the 5040UB as it should be considerably brighter, offer's the faux 4K mode, and should still provide a fantastic image that won't let you down after owning the 45ES.
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post #3 of 26 Old 03-12-2018, 08:17 PM
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The HW45ES has by far the best native contrast of any projector <$2,000 and therefore the most convincing black levels, so you would be sacrificing that for a brighter image. The HW45ES also produces remarkably balanced colors in its brightest modes whereas most other projectors sacrifice color accuracy in their brightest modes. But if you strongly prefer a TV-bright projection image as opposed to a movie theater-bright image you might be willing to make that trade-off
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post #4 of 26 Old 03-13-2018, 07:34 AM
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Yes you should, and sell me the 45ES.
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post #5 of 26 Old 03-13-2018, 08:13 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vid53 View Post
Just wondering if its worth selling my Sony 45ES projector.I seem to favor more of a brighter picture. I always set my projectors to the bright setting, because it seems to make the picture very sharp looking. Looking for some opinions on this.
What size screen are you using?
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post #6 of 26 Old 03-13-2018, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LumensLover View Post
What size screen are you using?
120 inch screen 15 feet away
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post #7 of 26 Old 03-13-2018, 11:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by vid53 View Post
120 inch screen 15 feet away
For maximum brightness with a reduction in overall contrast, I would suggest a Epson 3700. For maximum brightness along with eshift 4k without a visible reduction in contrast you would have to step up to the Epson 5040.

Something brighter with eshift 4K with lower contrast, I would suggest the Epson 4000.
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post #8 of 26 Old 03-13-2018, 11:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LumensLover View Post
For maximum brightness with a reduction in overall contrast, I would suggest a Epson 3700. For maximum brightness along with eshift 4k without a visible reduction in contrast you would have to step up to the Epson 5040.

Or something brighter with eshift 4K, I was sugget the Epson 4000.
Would the new 4K projectors give me an even better picture?
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post #9 of 26 Old 03-13-2018, 11:36 AM
 
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Originally Posted by vid53 View Post
Would the new 4K projectors give me an even better picture?
E-shift will make the picture appear somewhat sharper. However in my opinion it also adds noise to the image as well.

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post #10 of 26 Old 03-13-2018, 12:51 PM
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The HW45ES has been independently measured by veteran AV reviewers using calibrated test equipment to produce as many as 1,700 lumens when calibrated to produce balanced colors in Bright Cinema mode and high lamp. That's way more than the average person needs to properly illuminate a 120" screen. Before dumping an HW45ES for a brighter model I would first want to know how many lumens another projector produced when calibrated to produce balanced colors.

@LumensLover , I'm surprised you didn't suggest that new screen you just raved about in the Screens section. A positive gain ALR screen combined with an HW45ES would seem to be a great option for someone looking for something brighter without having to sacrifice all the strong points of the HW45ES.
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post #11 of 26 Old 03-14-2018, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
The HW45ES has been independently measured by veteran AV reviewers using calibrated test equipment to produce as many as 1,700 lumens when calibrated to produce balanced colors in Bright Cinema mode and high lamp. That's way more than the average person needs to properly illuminate a 120" screen. Before dumping an HW45ES for a brighter model I would first want to know how many lumens another projector produced when calibrated to produce balanced colors.

@LumensLover , I'm surprised you didn't suggest that new screen you just raved about in the Screens section. A positive gain ALR screen combined with an HW45ES would seem to be a great option for someone looking for something brighter without having to sacrifice all the strong points of the HW45ES.
What would be the best screen color for his situation? I'd think white because it would reflect everything back at him, but if he did Gray, would that improve the black "that much more"?
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post #12 of 26 Old 03-14-2018, 05:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vid53 View Post
Just wondering if its worth selling my Sony 45ES projector.I seem to favor more of a brighter picture. I always set my projectors to the bright setting, because it seems to make the picture very sharp looking. Looking for some opinions on this.
The Sony is stuck between a rock and a hard place. Too expensive for only 1080p and an overkill for just gaming (350,000yen in Japan and 26,000yen for bulb replacements), it's 2 years old and affordable 4K is just around the corner. If it was me I would sell early and get as much back to fund a brighter/faux 4K projector. Keeping it a bit longer is only going to make it difficult to sell considering that 1080p projectors are a dime a dozen now and much cheaper. We've seen it happen with so many "innovative" projectors that were the first at 720p or 1080p but also highly expensive, hard to consider those now at their original price point.
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The bigger screen you will notice 4k resloution over 1080p.
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post #14 of 26 Old 03-14-2018, 07:32 PM
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The terms calibrated with a "new lamp" and "high lamp setting" make me a little nauseous. Wait 500+ hours. Are we still happy then? Where are those lazers.....
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The terms calibrated with a "new lamp" and "high lamp setting" make me a little nauseous. Wait 500+ hours. Are we still happy then? Where are those lazers.....
Preach on!
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post #16 of 26 Old 03-15-2018, 03:09 AM
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Ive Demo'd the Epsons and there are much better options for 4k and sharpness out there. Now if you can afford Sony 4K, then yes now is a good time. I get the feeling proper calibration is in order.
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post #17 of 26 Old 03-15-2018, 07:50 AM
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Would the new 4K projectors give me an even better picture?
I’ve just bought this particular Sony model despite craving one of the new 4K offerings, I was lucky enough that they happen to have both projectors side by side and could simultaneously play the same movie through both so with the use of a paddle over each lens I could see which image was best and frankly in my opinion there was no comparison despite it being a 4K Blu-ray the Sony whilst only producing the picture in 1080p was sharper with way better colours and real detail in its black.

From what I experienced I would hold off buying until they show the kind of improvement you’d expect with 4K.

P.S.
The screen I viewed these on was a 160x90 which is small but I was only about 6ft away so getting to see all the available detail in all its glory.

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post #18 of 26 Old 03-15-2018, 08:01 AM
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@vid53 , when it comes to choosing between different projectors the best advice is always to try to see them with your own eyes as @Luminated67 did. If you can't see them with your own eyes then you need to rely on comparing professional reviews and interpreting user opinions. But as you can see there are many different opinions. Anyone asking for advice on this forum looking for a consensus opinion might as well forget about it. The truth is that we all have a different balance of personal preferences so we all tend to favor different options for ourselves. Where we run into trouble is trying to tell someone else what they might prefer.
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post #19 of 26 Old 03-15-2018, 08:09 AM
 
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Wait for laser to upgrade. And certainly don't downgrade, contrast is the most important measure of picture quality in a projector, after lumens of course.

Laser light sources combined with high contrast light modulators are the way to go for HDR and no point in upgrading to 4K without both HDR and WCG.

Most projector users tell you to use SDR mode on even good contrast JVC and Sony projectors with custom tone mapping, mostly because there aren't enough lumens to do HDR10 justice. Without laser. And even then.

So, yes, I'd wait. If anything, but a new lamp for the 45es. CEDIA in the fall might have a replacement for the 5040 with either blue lasers or at least 18 gbps, probably only the latter but I wouldn't buy an HDR projector that couldn't do HDR properly (18 gbps and no banding in any 10-bit mode). Many projectors are dropping the ball with regards to banding with HDR content, even some that do have proper 18 gbps HDMI inputs need 4:4:4 input because their chroma upscaling chips apparently only work at 8-bit internally, causing banding artifacts with HDR10 content.

In short, HDR is currently a big, huge mess. Tons of bugs and issues to sort out. Wait. The Sony is awesome. I'd have one but I'm against spending 2 grand on a 1080p display, on principle. But that doesn't mean I'd consider any old "4K" compatible projector to be an upgrade because most aren't.
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post #20 of 26 Old 03-15-2018, 08:46 AM
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Should I dump my Sony VPL-HW45ES projector for one of the new 4K projectors?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
I’ve just bought this particular Sony model despite craving one of the new 4K offerings, I was lucky enough that they happen to have both projectors side by side and could simultaneously play the same movie through both so with the use of a paddle over each lens I could see which image was best and frankly in my opinion there was no comparison despite it being a 4K Blu-ray the Sony whilst only producing the picture in 1080p was sharper with way better colours and real detail in its black.



From what I experienced I would hold off buying until they show the kind of improvement you’d expect with 4K.



P.S.

The screen I viewed these on was a 160x90 which is small but I was only about 6ft away so getting to see all the available detail in all its glory.


What did you watch?

This decision depends 99% on what you watch. Movies, even 4K movies, are often a poor choice to display 4K content as most movies are simply upsampled from a DCi 2K master. When I first started reviewing the HT2550 I watched the 4K release of Kingsmen 2. Honestly, if this is all I had watched then I would have been ambivalent towards 4K. Then I watched Bladerunner 2049 and played some Shadow of the Colossus on PS4 PRO— at which point my opinion started to change.

And then I watched a whole slate of high quality 4K material culminating this last weekend with Planet Earth II. As ridiculous as it may sound that one series could ruin 1080p for me forever: planet earth 2 ruined 1080p for me forever. What has been seen cannot be unseen as the old internet meme goes. At 100” 1080p has now become soft. Going back and forth between my 4K and 1080p copies of PE2 was like going back and forth between SD and HD 10 years ago. The difference is NOT subtle and if anyone tells you otherwise you should question their eyes or, probably more likely, their source material.

Now, not everyone should rush out and buy a 4K projector. They are still comparatively expensive and most lack features or performance vs 1080p alternatives at their given price points. Still, the move to 4K is not happening it’s happened and it’s hard for me to recommend anyone shell out $2k for a 1080p projector in 2018. I’m not saying that the owner of a Sony 45ES— a mid/high end 1080p projector— is going to be happy with what amounts to an entry level 4K projector in the BenQ HT2550. No, the contrast is too low. But what I AM saying is if you’d like me to ruin your current projector and get you on the path to saving for a 285ES then come on over and let me demonstrate the differences between 4K and 1080p for you.

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post #21 of 26 Old 03-15-2018, 09:56 AM
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^It was a Dolby Atmos reference disc, I would have assumed this would have been pretty decent, we then switched to Magical Beasts and where to find them and finished with Star Trek Into the Darkness. To my eyes the blacks on the Sony blew the Optima away plus there was a richness to its colours I didn’t see either.

Trust me no one wanted to join the 4K bandwagon more than me but I just felt there wasn’t the improvement I was expecting to see, maybe a more run of the mill 1080p PJ might not have given the Optima much a fight but IMO the Sony just ticked more of my boxes and as my theatre room is pitch black the Sony won the battle.

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post #22 of 26 Old 03-15-2018, 10:08 AM
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I would stick with the 45es. I was thinking about upgrading to the Sony 285es, so I went to demo it at Best Buy. The guy let me tweak the settings, while we watched Dunkirk in 4k and I wasn't really too impressed. The picture was sharper, but not $3k sharper and the HDR is not even noticeable when compared to the 4k picture I get from my 65 Sony 900e. I agree that you should eventually jump to a 4k projector, but I would hold out until one comes along that can actually do HDR the right way. Basically right now you'd just be paying for more pixels, and not even the full amount if you go faux-K.
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post #23 of 26 Old 03-15-2018, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
^It was a Dolby Atmos reference disc, I would have assumed this would have been pretty decent, we then switched to Magical Beasts and where to find them and finished with Star Trek Into the Darkness. To my eyes the blacks on the Sony blew the Optima away plus there was a richness to its colours I didn’t see either.



Trust me no one wanted to join the 4K bandwagon than me but I just felt there wasn’t the improvement I was expecting to see, maybe a more run of the mill 1080p PJ might not have given the Optima much a fight but IMO the Sony just ticked more of my boxes and as my theatre room is pitch black the Sony won the battle.


I haven’t seen Dunkirk. But based on the director I would think it would be a good example of 4K. Both fantastic beasts and Star Trek Into Darkness are fake 4K: http://realorfake4k.com/my-product/s...into-darkness/.

The Sony is definitely going to give you rich, accurate color and deep blacks. It’s a fantastic projector. I just have a really hard time with the price considering it is, with the 65ES, one of the two MOST expensive 1080p projectors on the market. Every one else is offering 4K at or anywhere near this price. BenQ, Optoma, Epson— hell JVC doesn’t even SELL 1080p models anymore. If Sony could offer some kind of e-shift or maybe reduce the price...

At the end of the day, I’ve seen what 4K can do and now 1080p looks soft to me. I’ve had my eyes opened to a possibility I had not considered before. As a result my standards have changed, the goal posts have moved. Hell, my PHONE is 1080p. If you’re happy stay FAR away from 4K projector displaying quality material. Part of me wishes I could go back if only because I’m a gamer and none of the new 4K models have very low input lag.

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I consider myself a videophile, so let me give my 2 cents on this subject. I've owned the Epson 6040 and I've owned the JVC x550r.

When I think of image quality I'm looking at color accuracy first, black levels second, and resolution 3rd. I can tell you now that I prefer the image quality of the Sony 45es over the Epson 6040 and the JVC x550r projectors that I own. The Sony has richer colors, much better color balance, solid black levels without an annoying iris, and a fairly sharp picture.

Most projectors cannot do HDR properly. They fail miserably in comparison to my Samsung and Sony 65 inch TVs when it comes to hdr on 4K content. 4K content is still scarce in my opinion. Most TV broadcast are in 720p. Also, I don't see any major differences between 1080P and 4k on screens between 80 to 110 inch screens. I've only seen the advantage from increased resolution come into play if you're using screens over 120" diagonal. Some people are too quick to get caught up in all this fake 4K advertising. It's not real 4K and it will be an afterthought in a couple years when native 4K projectors are available.

People are so quick to try to future-proof everything that they're buying flawed technology now which will be upgraded and cast aside fairly soon. I'd rather go for a high quality image out the box then chase fake 4K resolution.

Also, the E-shift function added noise to the images portrayed on my JVC and Epson projectors. The image was slightly sharper but it took away from overall image quality in my opinion. I'd rather have a natural albeit softer image than a enhanced image that appears over processed. Every night I look at the Sony 45ES image, I can't believe I paid so much more money for the Epson 6040 and the JVC x550r for image quality which was not discernibly better than what the Sony 45es is capable of in my opinion.

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I haven’t seen Dunkirk. But based on the director I would think it would be a good example of 4K. Both fantastic beasts and Star Trek Into Darkness are fake 4K: http://realorfake4k.com/my-product/s...into-darkness/.
What about the Dolby disc? In any case this is the whole problem with 4K material at the moment, you play your hard earned cash and can get below par picture quality.

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The Sony is definitely going to give you rich, accurate color and deep blacks. It’s a fantastic projector. I just have a really hard time with the price considering it is, with the 65ES, one of the two MOST expensive 1080p projectors on the market. Every one else is offering 4K at or anywhere near this price. BenQ, Optoma, Epson— hell JVC doesn’t even SELL 1080p models anymore. If Sony could offer some kind of e-shift or maybe reduce the price...
It’s dear and probably dearer than I ultimately wanted to go but having to replace an Epson PJ which already had a great picture I couldn’t get something inferior which was why I was considering a 4K to hopefully future proof myself but alas this comparison test didn’t do it for me which was a shame as I know in probably 3-4 years I will be revisiting the dilemma of 4K.

Maybe it’s me wanting or expecting more like my TV than what these 4K PJ are capable of?

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At the end of the day, I’ve seen what 4K can do and now 1080p looks soft to me. I’ve had my eyes opened to a possibility I had not considered before. As a result my standards have changed, the goal posts have moved. Hell, my PHONE is 1080p. If you’re happy stay FAR away from 4K projector displaying quality material. Part of me wishes I could go back if only because I’m a gamer and none of the new 4K models have very low input lag.
I think our priorities are different that all, for me the colours and contrast is everything it’s what gives that movie experience for me, once an affordable 4K can give me this then I’ll be sold.
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post #26 of 26 Old 03-15-2018, 01:20 PM
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What about the Dolby disc? In any case this is the whole problem with 4K material at the moment, you play your hard earned cash and can get below par picture quality.







It’s dear and probably dearer than I ultimately wanted to go but having to replace an Epson PJ which already had a great picture I couldn’t get something inferior which was why I was considering a 4K to hopefully future proof myself but alas this comparison test didn’t do it for me which was a shame as I know in probably 3-4 years I will be revisiting the dilemma of 4K.



Maybe it’s me wanting or expecting more like my TV than what these 4K PJ are capable of?







I think our priorities are different that all, for me the colours and contrast is everything it’s what gives that movie experience for me, once an affordable 4K can give me this then I’ll be sold.


Yeah, the amount of dubious 4K releases is astounding. That site I linked you to has been a godsend.

I agree on that last point. If you want a TV to closely replicate a flatscreen or even replace a flatscreen then you want as much contrast as you can. Ultimately the issue for me (and I just posted about this in the other thread) is the fact I still own the last great plasma ever made. Compared to that plasma all these projectors have gray blacks. That 6000:1 the 45ES can achieve is laughable compared to the native 29,000:1 my plasma generates (a number, it’s worth mentioning, only oled has surpassed— LCDs don’t even come close). For me, size and immersion is very important. I don’t want to have to buy a theater ticket. 4K takes away that last obstacle for me as now movies take on a more film like quality, nature documentaries have the same level of detail as an IMAX, and video games are on a completely different level— though we desperately need lower lag. The sad truth is compared to my local cineplex this HT2550 still has better contrast. Lol!

Good luck with the purchase. I know you’ll enjoy it!
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