JVC LX-UH1 New 4K projector - Page 10 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #271 of 674 Old 05-20-2018, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
That's the way I've always understood it. Ambient light is what's in the room before the projector is even turned on. In photography ambient light is called available light. When you add photographic lighting such as a flash it's not considered part of the ambient or available light. Similarly when a projector is turned on any cross reflections it produces are additive to the ambient light rather than part of it. @Don Stewart is one of the most knowledgeable people on this subject I know as it pertains to projected images so it would be nice if he stopped by here and shared his opinion.
Indeed - and I think most definitions when using photography as an example say something like that.

Funny you should mention Don Stewart because I was going to mention him in my earlier post - I attended one of his Firehawk Tours here in London around 2006 (I think) and he opened the window blinds and put on the fluorescent lighting to add ambient light to the room. He was using a split screen that was half Firehawk and half ST130 to demonstrate the benefits of the Firehawk, and it was visibly a big difference between the two, with the ST130 being very washed out with the ambient lighting in comparison. The image from the FH was very watchable and it was an easy sell if you hadn't seen a grey screen in those conditions before.

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post #272 of 674 Old 05-20-2018, 05:01 PM
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@DonS tewert - I thought he died.

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post #273 of 674 Old 05-20-2018, 05:42 PM
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@DonS tewert - I thought he died.
I know that Grant Stewart of Stewart Filmscreen passed away a few years ago. Don Stewart posted in The Official Stewart Film Screen thread as recently as a few days ago.
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post #274 of 674 Old 05-27-2018, 07:03 AM
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Any new info on this projector? Really want a projector to replace my aging 1080wt and this one looks to fit the bill since it has lens shift.
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post #275 of 674 Old 05-31-2018, 11:50 AM
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Any new info on this projector? Really want a projector to replace my aging 1080wt and this one looks to fit the bill since it has lens shift.
+1 this projector had me excited, but appears to have disappeared. There's nothing on Google nor the JVC site about it since the news release.

Last minute release blocking bug found?
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post #276 of 674 Old 05-31-2018, 12:31 PM
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The press release said it would start shipping in May. Seeing as though it’s the last day of May and we’ve seen neither hide nor hair of the projector I would say it’s safe to assume the release date got pushed back for some reason. I think it would be be irresponsible to assume the delay was due to a bug. Could just be supply issues as the .47 DMD is finding it’s way into everything these days.

I would really like to see more .66 DMD projectors but it seems margins are too thin. I would have thought this wouldn’t have been too hard as many 1080p DLP projectors are based around the old .65 DC3 DMD. But most of the new 4K DLP projectors seem to be based around the new .47 (4K) DMD while a majority of the recently released entry level 1080p DLPs look to be based around the .47 (1080p) DMD. It seems like the whole of the DLP world is downsizing.

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post #277 of 674 Old 05-31-2018, 01:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
It seems like the whole of the DLP world is downsizing.
Yep. That is what focusing on increased resolution while utterly ignoring any advances in contrast will do.
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post #278 of 674 Old 05-31-2018, 03:43 PM
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JVC LX-UH1 New 4K projector

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Originally Posted by LumensLover View Post
Yep. That is what focusing on increased resolution while utterly ignoring any advances in contrast will do.


Well that’s not entirely fair. The recently released Xiaomi Mi UST comes equipped with the 1080p .47 DMD and it has significantly higher native contrast and deeper blacks than your average .65 1080p DLP. The new LG HU80KA .47 4K is getting early buzz for it’s high contrast. And, of course, the Optoma UHZ65 is a .66 4K DLP and it’s been recognized by a variety of reviewers as having excellent contrast— Evan over at projector central even found it’s image preferable to that of the native 4K Sony 285ES thanks to the Optoma’s better contrast.

The issue, of course, is all of those rely on a laser light source which is expensive (although more affordable in DLPs than LCoS designs). Sticking with a traditional UHP lamp you should be able to get better contrast from the .66 and still keep costs low. Acer has a .66 model out with relatively impressive contrast performance but it’s barely available in the states. I still prefer the .66 UHD60’s performance over that of the Epson 4000 as the actual in scene contrast of the UHd60 is higher. But it does feel like all the newest announcements are projectors utilizing the .47 DMD. For .66 projectors we have the Optoma twins, the barely-there Acer, the so-so Vivitek and a pair of high dollar BenQs. I know of no new 4K DLPs on the horizon which will feature the .66 DMD. It’s curious...

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post #279 of 674 Old 06-02-2018, 02:21 AM
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Having seen a couple variations of both the .66 and .47 it seems fairly clear to me that the .66 has the resolution/detail advantage so I was shocked when I read that JVC was using the .47 (especially considering their price point relative to what else is already on the market).
It's too bad more .66 units are not on the way.


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post #280 of 674 Old 06-02-2018, 03:42 AM
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The test of the brand new JVC LX-UH1 (serial model) is online. Enjoy your reading.


http://www.passionhomecinema.fr/blog...lavis-de-greg/


Google translation :


https://translate.google.com/transla...vis-de-greg%2F
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post #281 of 674 Old 06-02-2018, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LumensLover View Post
That is downright terrible.
Terrible contrast is a relative concept. Dedicated theaters are going away and most multi-purpose living room theaters will never have black ceilings, walls, carpet so are limited by the room and couldn't get anywhere near 770:1, even with LCOS. Ambient light rejecting screens are more important than the projector in these setups.

I'm just hoping JVC can really do 2000 color calibrated lumens with high color brightness and not a useless Dynamic "blue" mode and 900 color calibrated. I'd love to see a blue laser version of this pj with lamp modulation as JVCs DI implementation in my 4910 is not impressive.

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post #282 of 674 Old 06-02-2018, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by pottscb View Post
I'm just hoping JVC can really do 2000 color calibrated lumens with high color brightness and not a useless Dynamic "blue" mode and 900 color calibrated.

You might take a look here under the part "Contraste et Luminosité" :


http://www.passionhomecinema.fr/blog...lavis-de-greg/
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post #283 of 674 Old 06-02-2018, 11:52 AM
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JVC LX-UH1 New 4K projector

Quote:
Originally Posted by kraine View Post
The test of the brand new JVC LX-UH1 (serial model) is online. Enjoy your reading.


http://www.passionhomecinema.fr/blog...lavis-de-greg/


Google translation :


https://translate.google.com/transla...vis-de-greg%2F


Wow. This is ACTUALLY manufactured by BenQ! I had no idea. The menu is identical.

Contrast will probably be a disappointment to traditional JVC fans but those are better numbers than what we’ve seen from any other .47 DMD outside of the UHD51. And with the iris engaged they are downright respectable— though I couldn’t really make out the part about the iris due to the funky google translate.

The obvious question now is does BenQ have a version of this projector planned with perhaps a lower MSRP?
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post #284 of 674 Old 06-02-2018, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erkq View Post
Such low contrast performance in this age of modern projectors is a real compromise. It's great that it's 4k, but that's 3rd on the list of what's important for image quality. This whole resolution race is a marketing gimmick because it's easier for the general public to grasp that than gamma or accurate linear color response, two items more important.
4k is worlds ahead on resolution and most relevant on bigger screens. Anyone who dismisses that either needs glasses or is biased. JVC was caught with its pants down and while it makes a fine but ridiculously priced DILA 4k projector they had nothing to compete with in the very hot market of reasonably priced DLP 4k units.
The question here is does a lamp powered good lens with an iris beat a laser light source projector without an iris. LG is releasing the HU80ka which has the same list with a 4 color color wheel and good motion processing as well as being a smart tv.
The reviews on both these projectors will become more numerous soon.With the HU80ka getting an editor's choice award from Projector Central JVC has some stiff competition.
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post #285 of 674 Old 06-02-2018, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by kraine View Post
You might take a look here under the part "Contraste et Luminosité" :


http://www.passionhomecinema.fr/blog...lavis-de-greg/
Looks like a BenQ W1700...if its the same that's just ridiculous. Remember when Dreamvision and Anthem caught heck for rebadging the JVC RS20/40? What goes around comes around...
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post #286 of 674 Old 06-02-2018, 06:40 PM
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4k is worlds ahead on resolution and most relevant on bigger screens. Anyone who dismisses that either needs glasses or is biased.
...
The size of the screen doesn't matter. It's the angle of view. If you sit closer than 1 screen width you'll definitely notice a difference. I have a 10 foot wide screen and we've settled on watching from 16 feet (1.6 sw), so 4k material is "meh" although the P3 color gamut that comes with it is great. Closer than that I'm just craning my neck all the time. For me, it's not pleasant. So, for me, color and gamma are more important.
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post #287 of 674 Old 06-02-2018, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by kraine View Post
The test of the brand new JVC LX-UH1 (serial model) is online. Enjoy your reading.


http://www.passionhomecinema.fr/blog...lavis-de-greg/


Google translation :


https://translate.google.com/transla...vis-de-greg%2F
That is a pretty positive review, Greg. Does this JVC use the lamp dimming as well as the physical iris, or only the iris ?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
Wow. This is ACTUALLY manufactured by BenQ! I had no idea. The menu is identical.

Contrast will probably be a disappointment to traditional JVC fans but those are better numbers than what we’ve seen from any other .47 DMD outside of the UHD51. And with the iris engaged they are downright respectable— though I couldn’t really make out the part about the iris due to the funky google translate.

The obvious question now is does BenQ have a version of this projector planned with perhaps a lower MSRP?
The UHD51 and HT2550 seem to be streeting for full MSRP, where my RS1 was 20% below MSRP right out the gate. So if JVC is still doing their pricing that way, the price differential might not be crazy considering the pre-calibrated 2000 lumens out of the box and the iris.
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post #289 of 674 Old 06-03-2018, 05:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
We don't look at on-off contrast with our PJs (except for testing): We look at intrascene contrast and clearly intrascene contrast falls dramatically in a non-optimized theatre, and here high ASNI contrast is important for the majority of the viewed content:

TW9200/W2000 Lumens = 638 / 899
White living room with blackout drapes.
50% = 63/98 20% = 162/228 10% = 317/400 5% = 549/603 2% = 1129/942 1% = 1694/1138 on-off = 4474/1634 ANSI = 251/646

~10% = average movie.
Given that we perceive an 82% drop in lumens as a 50% difference (in other words, 18% looks 50% as bright), we need a larger difference than 400 to 317 (around 20% difference) for it to be particularly noticeable.


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Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
This despite the W2000 throwing 50% more lumens onto the screen:



So we have the ProjectionDreams people emphasizing the importance and advantages of high ANSI contrast and their own testing shows this very clearly. What their tests don't show is the importance of brightness.
I'm not sure that's what they're doing - they're showing that with a bad room the ANSI is reduced and that happens with all projectors and will equalise that performance between high and low ANSI projectors, making it something that makes little difference. Brightness may be needed to combat ambient but it's not that important for image quality. In fact it can be detrimental as it will highlight image noise/source artefacts, raise black levels and introduce a grey veil while reducing colour saturation near black. Higher contrast will improve the image far more than higher brightness.


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Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
Yes, if there are no bright highlights in a scene and you pause the PJ and let your eyes adapt then very high on-off contrast can become visible, but this rarely happens in typical theatrical releases. Without time to adapt 800-1 is about the limit and this will decline as we get older (alas I know all about that!) The time taken for the human eye to adapt to darkness is well studied and it is something that I'm quite familiar with because I've been a very active amateur astronomer for the last 30 odd years.
You don't need to pause an image or let your eyes adapt to see the contrast differences when comparing projectors, though you usually have to to see resolution differences, like between native 4K and fauK images, even at close seating distances.

I can only suggest you do the testing yourself as I suggested, or look at the pictures from projection dream which prove that the on/off contrast difference is visible, even in a bad room - the 7300 vs the 9300 clearly show that the 9300 has better black levels due to it's higher on/off contrast - their ANSI is much the same. They're showing the effects of a bad room by measuring the ANSI, but they are also proving that the higher on/off will still give better black levels and contrast performance regardless of what happens to the ANSI, and the pictures prove that.

A bad room pretty much equalises the ANSI of a projector - if you compare a good DLP with a good LCoS, the DLP has about twice the ANSI of the LCoS, but in a bad room, that difference is greatly reduced as to almost equalise them - the DLP will still have the higher ANSI but only by a few points - say 55:1 vs 50:1 from the LCoS - easily proven with real measurements. That difference will be hard to see if not impossible in real terms, but the higher on/off of 10,000:1 (or more) vs 1000:1 will be more noticeable.

The difference between 230:1 ANSI and 400:1 ANSI (eg LCoS vs DLP in a good room) isn't that visible, and there are not many scenes that will be close to the 50% ANSI pattern to show off that difference in a good room, but the difference between 1000:1 on/off vs 10,000:1 or more on/of is always visible in a good or a bad room. When comparing projectors in split screen, you will easily tell which one has the higher on/off, but it is much harder to tell which one has the higher ANSI unless you use scenes that are closer to 50% test patterns. Projection dreams images show that in a typical scene of 10 to 15% ADL the on/off is still visually perceptible but the ANSI (DLP vs LCoS) is being equalised and less visible.

It's quite obvious that on/off CR plays a bigger part in image quality than ANSI - both are important, but on/off more so. Just compare an old CRT projector with maybe 130: ANSI and thousands to one on/off vs an old DLP with maybe 400:1 ANSI and maybe 400:1 on/off - everybody will prefer the CRT, all else being equal. In a bad room the CRT may have black parts in the image that raise and drop or even change colour with content, but that's mostly due to the lenses IIRC, and digitals don't suffer in the same way - halo's and contamination is greatly reduced. There is a reason why there has been a constant need to improve on/off contrast capability in digital projectors, and that's because it's an important image quality. It's not the only quality of course but it's usually high on the list.

As for 800:1, that too can be easily disproved by ruining two projectors side by side in a split screen comparison, and the higher on/off pj will be visible due to the better blacks or brighter whites (assuming one end of the range has been equalised) if the difference is large enough to be perceptible - we can see such a large range of contrast, and given that we don't see linearly (see my earlier comments), we need a large contrast difference for it to be noticeable which makes the 800:1 number seem ridiculous. With numbers like that we probably wouldn't be able to drive at night.

Our eyes can also be pretty quick to adapt - a split screen image as described above will also prove that - we don't need static images and long periods of time for our eyes to adapt when watching movies or comparing projectors. Like I said before, if we can only see 800:1 there would be no need for projectors that are capable of more and we could not see the difference during a movie - except we can, so that should also be a simple way to prove we are not limited to just 800:1. I don't know where people get these numbers from.

With respect to astronomy, you tend to use the peripheral vision more due to there being more rods than cones there IIRC, and we may rely on chemical adaption which is a slower process than relying on normal adaption including the iris under normal conditions. We have 'scotopic' vision that helps us with dark conditions, and 'photopic' with brighter conditions (and if you want to measure the contrast of your pj, try and get a photopic light meter). Mesopic for intermediate.

I was looking for an image I'd seen that shows the importance of high contrast vs resolution and although I couldn't find the original article, this image should show that high on/off contrast is important, and more important than resolution.



I have a room that is lined with black velvet, and I can assure you that a high ANSI low on/off capable DLP does not compare well against lower ANSI projectors that have considerably higher on/off, and I used to be a DLP owner - my first being back in 2000 (and two more after that), so I can assure you that high ANSI and high brightness are not as important for image quality as high contrast - with high lumen projectors, dimming the image brightness down with filters is a common practice (ND filters or CC filters which can also give more on/off contrast after calibration), and people wouldn't be doing that if brightness was a better quality than contrast or black levels. Prior to this room, I had a room that wasn't so good, and despite having DLP, I was always striving for more on/off. The ANSI was round 50:1 until I treated the room and achieved 200:1, but the on/off was still under 3000:1.

I wouldn't let a bad room stop me from buying a high on/off capable pj as the benefit will always be visible. The ANSI will suffer of course, but that's less important in the scheme of things and is usually less visible with content.
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post #290 of 674 Old 06-03-2018, 11:29 AM
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The Projectiondream reviewers say what they say, not what you want them to be saying.

http://projectiondream.com/en/review...or-benq-w2000/ :

Quote:

The curves confirm the impression we had when we tested the Benq W2000: It has an incredible ANSI contrast! In our optimized room we measured a 50% contrast value of 529:1! This compensates for the On-off contrast of around 1600, which is typical for a DLP projector.


Especially in bright scenes the Benq W2000 can clearly outperform higher priced projectors. But the most surprising thing is, that it performs still very well in dark scenes as long as there are bright spots, as you can see on the screenshot of Arkham city at night from “The dark knight” below. Only in dark scenes without bright spots, the high black level, that is typical for DLP projectors, is visible and black turns to grey.

The contrast behaviour is incredible for a DLP projector of 1299€. It has the maximum 50% contrast that we measured so far (529:1)! As a result the picture is great not only in very bright scenes, but also in dark scenes with some bright spots. Only in very dark scenes without any brightness, you notice the DLP black level.
You have a room lined with black velvet...I'm happy for you but clearly most of us do not have such fortunate circumstances and you'll note that I and the Projection dream reviewers have been stating that most projector owners have to make do with less than optimal theatre spaces, where the room will negatively impact contrast levels for all but the dimmest scenes, and so high ANSI contrast, high brightness projectors will have an edge during the majority of viewed content. The other factor is that too much contrast in dim scenes often leads to loss of shadow detail - yes the screen is black but the content the director has laid out for us is missing:


move to 17:30 to see what I'm talking about.

I watched Valerian in 1080p BD on a HC5040 and my W1070. both in less than optimal theatres. The HC5040's eco mode image was dim compared to my SmartEco mode W1070 which was also throwing a somewhat larger image (120 versus ~140 in)and much of the darker content was really hard to see on the HC5040. Overall the movie seemed brighter and the bright highlights looked better on the W1070, while the darker scenes retained viewable detail at the cost of grayer blacks, but I prefer to see the details rather than a black screen.

If we could see the contrast ratios you are claiming, then we wouldn't need headlights to drive at night...
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post #291 of 674 Old 06-03-2018, 01:17 PM
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DunMunro,
You obviously do not understand the subject and are completely misinterpreting PJD.
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post #292 of 674 Old 06-03-2018, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
The Projectiondream reviewers say what they say, not what you want them to be saying.

http://projectiondream.com/en/review...or-benq-w2000/ :
They are saying exactly what I think they are saying:

Especially in bright scenes the Benq W2000 can clearly outperform higher priced projectors. But the most surprising thing is, that it performs still very well in dark scenes as long as there are bright spots

"As long as there are bright spots". There is a disclaimer there, and only in very bright scenes which are few in normal video content.

As I mentioned in a previous post, high ANSI is usually attributed with 'pop' in bright scenes, and high on/off for depth, colour saturation and black level in darker scenes. When a scene gets brighter in a bad room the data shows the ANSI levels start to equal out, and they do - I have also measured it just as projection dreams have, and as did the guys in the video you posted.

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Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
You have a room lined with black velvet...I'm happy for you but clearly most of us do not have such fortunate circumstances and you'll note that I and the Projection dream reviewers have been stating that most projector owners have to make do with less than optimal theatre spaces, where the room will negatively impact contrast levels for all but the dimmest scenes, and so high ANSI contrast, high brightness projectors will have an edge during the majority of viewed content. The other factor is that too much contrast in dim scenes often leads to loss of shadow detail - yes the screen is black but the content the director has laid out for us is missing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeFUsR056SA&t=1052s

move to 17:30 to see what I'm talking about.
That isn't strictly true as most movies are low ADL, not high so do not benefit so much from high ANSI as they do high sequential, and projectiondream are also saying that even in a bad room you will benefit from a high on/off capable pj, and they provided an image to prove that - I posted it for you earlier. Are you deliberately ignoring that because it doesn't support your position?

The video you posted doesn't support what you are saying either (Why didn't you find something that has a high ANSI and low CR vs a low ANSI and high CR pj?) Too much contrast in dim scenes does not limit shadow detail unless it's set up wrong or as a preference is set for best blacks. The video certainly doesn't show that at 17:30. At that point he says they both look much the same - both are producing excellent blacks and both are producing all of the stars.

As I said earlier, a bad room will pretty much equalise the ANSI of both projectors and that video proved that as well - the Optoma has around 89:1 and the Sony around 88:1 in their quick test (rather than measuring all 16 squares and averaging the results but it's good enough to prove the point). So that disproves your point that high ANSI is beneficial most of the time. By seeing the Sony without the iris it's quite clear that better blacks and more on/off contrast are beneficial though.

The UHZ65 uses laser dimming and has a higher (dynamic) on/off contrast than most DLPs, so isn't supporting your position that high on/off isn't important - just the opposite. If you wanted to prove your point, you'd need to have a test with a low on/off DLP vs the Sony 365 with the iris enabled. Perhaps even compare your Benq vs the Optoma UHZ or Sony 385 with iris and laser enabled and you'd see that the greater on'/off is beneficial, even in a room that only allows around 88:1 ANSI CR like in the video.

After 17:30 they show that both pjs look very similar when they have their iris enabled so both have similar ANSI and similar dynamic on/off, but earlier at around 13:00 they show that when the Sony has it's iris off and the Optoma has it's laser shut off, the Sony has a poor black level - just like if you were comparing a normal DLP with a higher on/off pj. Then he goes on to HDR which is a different can of worms, but says you need a lot of dynamic range to achieve that and not just lumens. Also, HDR varies a lot between pjs depending on how they implement it. So far there have been a lot of issues but it's getting better. So I'm not entirely sure how you were hoping the video would support you. It just seems to have supported the point that higher ANSI doesn't make much difference, and higher on/off is always beneficial. At 18:00 he says they both look amazingly the same. So, two pjs with dynamic CR and pretty much identical ANSI look the same. No real revelation there.

I'd be interested to see how well the UHZs dynamic laser dimming works compared to the other laser pjs out there. I'm a big fan of DLP and was hoping it would get back in the game again - a dynamic laser looks to be the answer if it works well without artefacts. I have a laser pj and I like what it has to offer.

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Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
I watched Valerian in 1080p BD on a HC5040 and my W1070. both in less than optimal theatres. The HC5040's eco mode image was dim compared to my SmartEco mode W1070 which was also throwing a somewhat larger image (120 versus ~140 in)and much of the darker content was really hard to see on the HC5040. Overall the movie seemed brighter and the bright highlights looked better on the W1070, while the darker scenes retained viewable detail at the cost of grayer blacks, but I prefer to see the details rather than a black screen.
You need to set up the contrast and brightness using a test disk and make sure you're using the correct gamma for the room conditions. If you didn't do that then I would expect the results you saw. Do you have any ambient in the room or just white walls etc? A grey screen will help in both cases as it reduces the effect on ANSI contrast by reducing the reflections from the screen (so less light to bounce back), and a brighter pj will help combat ambient.

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If we could see the contrast ratios you are claiming, then we wouldn't need headlights to drive at night...
You're confusing night vision with contrast capability. As an astronomer you should know the difference. With only 800:1 bright lights would blind us at night and we wouldn't be able to see much else.

If all that was important was lumens and ANSI contrast capability, then we'd all have DLP data projectors. It's pretty clear that those kinds of projectors don't really cut it for home cinema use because they don't do good blacks or have high contrast capability.

These two links are useful reading:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...rojection.html

https://www.widescreenreview.com/new...p?title=cineza
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Well that’s not entirely fair. The recently released Xiaomi Mi UST comes equipped with the 1080p .47 DMD and it has significantly higher native contrast and deeper blacks than your average .65 1080p DLP. The new LG HU80KA .47 4K is getting early buzz for it’s high contrast.
I still don't understand how TI can make one 0.47 1080p DLP that delivers 2300:1 native on/off and is used for 1080p projectors like the Xiaomi laser, but somehow can't get the mirrors to shift fast enough to deliver 240hz and thus 4K 60hz with quad shifting (4 frames of 1080p to make a single 4K image in aggregate).

The reason I say this is weird is this: it doesn't make sense to have one line of 0.47 1080p DLPs that does 2300:1 and another that does, at most, 800:1 (like the JVC here), once shifting is enabled. JVC uses optical shifting on 1080p LCoS chips and still delivers killer 2X shifted contrast, so the shifting optical module itself can't be the limiting factor for contrast, can it. Also, second reason: the colour wheel speeds imply 240hz native internal framerate even on non-XPR, old 1080p shifters, with repeated sub-frames. A 4X effective colour wheel speed on my w1070 at 1080p 60hz means it's actually running at 240hz internally. So 240hz capability is old, old news. It's just a question of feeding these DMDs with higher (native) framerates whereas now they are repeating frames to lower RBE, just like they do in cinemas with 48hz double flash of 24 fps movies (which only works for SDR calibrated to 50 nits, anything above that and the 48hz flicker becomes obvious).

People keep telling me there are two separate, 0.47 1080p DMD lines from TI, one is used in 1080p native projectors with terrific (for a DLP) contrast, and one which is absolutely horrible, but I don't see why TI would produce two separate lines. Their old DC3 1080p DMDs switch fast enough to deliver at least 144hz without sacrificing their 1800-2000:1 native contrast figures, on sub-500 dollar projectors. And the 0.47 inch micromirrors are supposed to be faster.

Show me a 4K DLP that achieves 2000:1 native contrast (with dynamic dimming disabled), with 33ms or less input lag, and lasers, and I'll bite. Until then, all these 4K projectors are strictly a downgrade from what anyone can buy for 500 dollars. The extra sharpness only counts when the picture is perfectly still, and that's rare and not on the main actors due to low framerates in current movies. For games it does count but the input lag on all these makes it a downgrade from the 16ms you can get for 700$ USD retail or so (HT2050a).

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post #294 of 674 Old 06-04-2018, 09:24 AM
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I still don't understand how TI can make one 0.47 1080p DLP that delivers 2300:1 native on/off and is used for 1080p projectors like the Xiaomi laser, but somehow can't get the mirrors to shift fast enough to deliver 240hz and thus 4K 60hz with quad shifting (4 frames of 1080p to make a single 4K image in aggregate).

The reason I say this is weird is this: it doesn't make sense to have one line of 0.47 1080p DLPs that does 2300:1 and another that does, at most, 800:1 (like the JVC here), once shifting is enabled. JVC uses optical shifting on 1080p LCoS chips and still delivers killer 2X shifted contrast, so the shifting optical module itself can't be the limiting factor for contrast, can it. Also, second reason: the colour wheel speeds imply 240hz native internal framerate even on non-XPR, old 1080p shifters, with repeated sub-frames. A 4X effective colour wheel speed on my w1070 at 1080p 60hz means it's actually running at 240hz internally. So 240hz capability is old, old news. It's just a question of feeding these DMDs with higher (native) framerates whereas now they are repeating frames to lower RBE, just like they do in cinemas with 48hz double flash of 24 fps movies (which only works for SDR calibrated to 50 nits, anything above that and the 48hz flicker becomes obvious).

People keep telling me there are two separate, 0.47 1080p DMD lines from TI, one is used in 1080p native projectors with terrific (for a DLP) contrast, and one which is absolutely horrible, but I don't see why TI would produce two separate lines. Their old DC3 1080p DMDs switch fast enough to deliver at least 144hz without sacrificing their 1800-2000:1 native contrast figures, on sub-500 dollar projectors. And the 0.47 inch micromirrors are supposed to be faster.

Show me a 4K DLP that achieves 2000:1 native contrast (with dynamic dimming disabled), with 33ms or less input lag, and lasers, and I'll bite. Until then, all these 4K projectors are strictly a downgrade from what anyone can buy for 500 dollars. The extra sharpness only counts when the picture is perfectly still, and that's rare and not on the main actors due to low framerates in current movies. For games it does count but the input lag on all these makes it a downgrade from the 16ms you can get for 700$ USD retail or so (HT2050a).
So you are correct, the .47 1080p chip and the .47 4K chip are completely different chips. The 4K chip is actually a higher resolution chip that only uses the 2 million or so pixels in the center of the DMD for it's 1080p/4K picture. Thus, the light border. The .47 1080p chip is an actual 1080p DMD. My guess would be there are differences at the micro-mirror level that could account for the contrast difference. I believe this has to do with the angle of tilt the mirrors are cable of-- the 1080p chip having a deeper angle due to it only producing 1 pixel for each frame as opposed to the 4K which needs to produce 4 pixels for each frame.


I'm also torn about the lag. I tend to be a snob when it comes to lag and recognize that 48ms is still acceptable for a large swath of gamers but I agree that 33ms, or better yet 16ms, is much preferable.


I think the important thing to remember is AVS is not exactly representative of the larger projector buying public. We here tend to scrutinize details a lot more than the average projector customer. For a LOT of buyers 4K is not a nicety it is a requirement. If the box doesn't say 4K it is not going to be bought. As 4K is the new standard for flat screens anything less than that is considered inferior by a large portion of the buying public. While a lot of us here understand that the overall quality of a projector's image hinges on a balance between picture quality elements the vast majority of customers are looking at a list of features and making their decision that way.


For what it's worth: I use the 4K HT2550 far more than I do the 1080p HT2050A. While the former does not have the contrast or black level performance of the latter I've found the upgrade in resolution to be a worthy tradeoff for much of the content I use the projector for. Gaming is tough as I can definitely feel the lag advantage of the HT2050A or one of my 3 plasmas but have a hard time giving up the gorgeous visuals on the HT2550.

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post #295 of 674 Old 06-04-2018, 09:51 AM
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That is a pretty positive review, Greg. Does this JVC use the lamp dimming as well as the physical iris, or only the iris ?


It uses both.

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So you are correct, the .47 1080p chip and the .47 4K chip are completely different chips. The 4K chip is actually a higher resolution chip that only uses the 2 million or so pixels in the center of the DMD for it's 1080p/4K picture. Thus, the light border. The .47 1080p chip is an actual 1080p DMD. My guess would be there are differences at the micro-mirror level that could account for the contrast difference. I believe this has to do with the angle of tilt the mirrors are cable of-- the 1080p chip having a deeper angle due to it only producing 1 pixel for each frame as opposed to the 4K which needs to produce 4 pixels for each frame.


I'm also torn about the lag. I tend to be a snob when it comes to lag and recognize that 48ms is still acceptable for a large swath of gamers but I agree that 33ms, or better yet 16ms, is much preferable.


I think the important thing to remember is AVS is not exactly representative of the larger projector buying public. We here tend to scrutinize details a lot more than the average projector customer. For a LOT of buyers 4K is not a nicety it is a requirement. If the box doesn't say 4K it is not going to be bought. As 4K is the new standard for flat screens anything less than that is considered inferior by a large portion of the buying public. While a lot of us here understand that the overall quality of a projector's image hinges on a balance between picture quality elements the vast majority of customers are looking at a list of features and making their decision that way.


For what it's worth: I use the 4K HT2550 far more than I do the 1080p HT2050A. While the former does not have the contrast or black level performance of the latter I've found the upgrade in resolution to be a worthy tradeoff for much of the content I use the projector for. Gaming is tough as I can definitely feel the lag advantage of the HT2050A or one of my 3 plasmas but have a hard time giving up the gorgeous visuals on the HT2550.
Pretty much all Dlp I have seen have light spill around the active pixel area. This is not unique to 4k units.

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The specs for the 0.47 DMDs show the same tilt angle (17 degrees) and are both tilt & roll type, plus from the diagrams showing how the shifting is occurring on the 2X XPR models, it's happening via an optical element after the DMD (along the light path, i.e. closer to the output lens of the projector). I don't see why they'd have different contrast specs.

The 2X XPR models are thus not doing the shifting via the mirrors themselves, which means they are technically just 2716 x 1528 DMDs operating at 120hz, nothing more.

These 4X XPR shifters, having such lower contrast, might be doing the X then Y shifting at the mirrors themselves. Q) Are they? It would explain a lot, but I'm just not sure that's the case. At least, I've read contradictory information, from TI's own website showing the shifting process has nothing to do with the DMD itself, thus the only requirement to enable shifting would be that the chips can operate at 120hz or 240hz to manage 2x or 4x shifting speed.

If the higher contrast 0.47 native 1080p DMDs are capable of 240hz internally, why not use those chips plus two optical shifting elements in the light path, one for X and one for Y. All the shifting is, AFAICT, is simply a voltage that changes the index of refraction of the glass tuned to a certain thickness and at a certain angle, so as to result in either 0 or 1/2 pixel's worth of shifting. (diagonally or laterally).

I'd love to see a teardown of these 0.47 XPRs to see if there is indeed an optical element, and compare that to a 2X shifter to see how they differ.
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The conspiracy theories are strong in here... lol
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/dlp470tp.pdf
The drawing in the device datasheet shows a 4 position optical actuator.
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Nice find

I think it had to be down to the actuator as BattleAxe had said due to the limitations of the chip operation (only two positions, landed and 17 degrees as per normal DMDs), but what's interesting is that in the application diagram it shows 2xLVDS West, and 2xLVDS East, with 960 x 1080 resolution - looks like it's using half full HD res with four switching operations to lay the pixels out much closer to representing UHD compared to the 4.15m chip that was being flashed twice.

I've only looked at the diagram and not read anything from that doc, but it's something I'll look into more - if this chip is the one with lower contrast, I wonder if what it is doing is also sacrificing lumens to try and get closer to actually replicating 4K.

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post #300 of 674 Old 06-04-2018, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by BattleAxeVR View Post
The specs for the 0.47 DMDs show the same tilt angle (17 degrees) and are both tilt & roll type, plus from the diagrams showing how the shifting is occurring on the 2X XPR models, it's happening via an optical element after the DMD (along the light path, i.e. closer to the output lens of the projector). I don't see why they'd have different contrast specs.



The 2X XPR models are thus not doing the shifting via the mirrors themselves, which means they are technically just 2716 x 1528 DMDs operating at 120hz, nothing more.



These 4X XPR shifters, having such lower contrast, might be doing the X then Y shifting at the mirrors themselves. Q) Are they? It would explain a lot, but I'm just not sure that's the case. At least, I've read contradictory information, from TI's own website showing the shifting process has nothing to do with the DMD itself, thus the only requirement to enable shifting would be that the chips can operate at 120hz or 240hz to manage 2x or 4x shifting speed.



If the higher contrast 0.47 native 1080p DMDs are capable of 240hz internally, why not use those chips plus two optical shifting elements in the light path, one for X and one for Y. All the shifting is, AFAICT, is simply a voltage that changes the index of refraction of the glass tuned to a certain thickness and at a certain angle, so as to result in either 0 or 1/2 pixel's worth of shifting. (diagonally or laterally).



I'd love to see a teardown of these 0.47 XPRs to see if there is indeed an optical element, and compare that to a 2X shifter to see how they differ.


Good point. We know there is an optical actuator because it is in the diagram and you can clearly hear it in operation in these projectors.

But I still thought the mirrors were doing something different as the actuator simply shifts the mirrors output to the different positions in the final image. The mirrors still have to account for four times the pixel creation than the 1080p only DMD would.

I don’t know... I care less about how the sausage gets made and more about how it tastes. I will say that contrast measurements are a funny thing. According to the numbers a TCL P series should destroy my VT60 but in actuality the contrast of the plasma is head and shoulders above the LCD.
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