Lens memory on a sub $2K, 4K/Faux K projector? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 31 Old 06-18-2018, 06:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Lens memory on a sub $2K, 4K/Faux K projector?

Any chance there will be a sub $2500, 4K e-shift or true 4K projector, coming out within the next 6 months to a year, that will have lens memory?
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post #2 of 31 Old 06-18-2018, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by SeanCJ View Post
Any chance there will be a sub $2500, 4K e-shift or true 4K projector, coming out within the next 6 months to a year, that will have lens memory?


There are two available now below $2500: the Epson 4000 and Epson 5040ub.

Depending on if you’re a half glass full / half empty type of person the Epsons could be considered either half 4K or double 1080p (Epson calls it 4K enhanced) and they both include motorized zoom with lens memory.

Epson is the only one near this price offering this feature.

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post #3 of 31 Old 06-18-2018, 07:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you sage11x. I should have been more specific. Anything 'new' coming out within the next 6 months to a year? I'm already aware of the Epsons and they don't quite check all the right boxes on my wish list of options/performance.
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post #4 of 31 Old 06-19-2018, 03:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanCJ View Post
Thank you sage11x. I should have been more specific. Anything 'new' coming out within the next 6 months to a year? I'm already aware of the Epsons and they don't quite check all the right boxes on my wish list of options/performance.
The only technology other than Sony LCOS that is actually putting full 4k resolution on screen is DLP single chip 4K. For some reason, almost no single chip DLP manufacturer has ever produced a projector with powered lens and lens memory. Christie and Eiki DLP projectors above $5000 are all I've found. Even the new JVC DLP 4k will not have powered lens, even though all of their LCOS projectors have those features. It seems strange they would not include it in their $2500 DLP offering, but there it is ...
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post #5 of 31 Old 06-19-2018, 07:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks everyone. I'm trying to decide if I should buy a B stock JVC RS420 (that's my budget point) or wait a bit longer for something that's on the horizon.
I'm not sure how much longer I can keep watching my old Mitsubishi HC4900! Don't get me wrong, its been a great projector for me, giving me 25,000+ hours of gaming and movies at an initial cost of only $1300, but I'm on my 5th bulb now and I've noticed more and more a decrease in 'pop' to the image and the contrast is rather poor. But, it has power zoom, focus, and lens shift, which makes my CIH set up work rather easy.
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post #6 of 31 Old 06-19-2018, 08:50 AM
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Lens memory on a sub $2K, 4K/Faux K projector?

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Originally Posted by SeanCJ View Post
Thank you sage11x. I should have been more specific. Anything 'new' coming out within the next 6 months to a year? I'm already aware of the Epsons and they don't quite check all the right boxes on my wish list of options/performance.


Not that I know of.

Epson seems to be the only company offering this feature in this price range. As you know, JVC offers it on their DILA projectors (but not the new UH1 4K DLP as dreamer points out) and Sony will sell you it as well but I believe you have to jump to the 675ES which is $15k.

So... it’s rare.

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post #7 of 31 Old 06-19-2018, 09:32 AM
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Any reason you wouldn't just push the budget up to $3,000 and get the JVC RS440 brand new? They are out there.
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post #8 of 31 Old 06-19-2018, 09:48 AM - Thread Starter
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I've thought about pushing the budget a bit more for the 440, but with two boys in college right now, we are stretched pretty thin, and a new PJ is more of a luxury item than a necessity. I was hoping to stay closer to $2K, so right now the 420 is a better fit and it offers everything I was hoping for (thanks to a great B stock price from Craig here at AVS!). I'm not sure the extra $1K for the 440 would be necessary for my needs.
I try to do my due diligence and research things into the ground before purchase so as to do my best to avoid buyer's remorse down the road.
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post #9 of 31 Old 06-19-2018, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanCJ View Post
I've thought about pushing the budget a bit more for the 440, but with two boys in college right now, we are stretched pretty thin, and a new PJ is more of a luxury item than a necessity. I was hoping to stay closer to $2K, so right now the 420 is a better fit and it offers everything I was hoping for (thanks to a great B stock price from Craig here at AVS!). I'm not sure the extra $1K for the 440 would be necessary for my needs.
I try to do my due diligence and research things into the ground before purchase so as to do my best to avoid buyer's remorse down the road.

You came to the right place! Lol!

JVCs are expensive but they represent such a good value when considering picture quality and features. Congrats! Incidentally, what was it about the Epson’s you didn’t like?

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post #10 of 31 Old 06-19-2018, 12:19 PM
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SeanCJ ,
I have and RS420, and it has lens memory. I recently decided to try CIH, and run this with an Oppo 203. Works great, and good projector. If you get one close out price, even better! I sold my 106" 16X9 and got a 115" 2:35.1 screen, and really love the change.
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post #11 of 31 Old 06-19-2018, 02:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
Incidentally, what was it about the Epson’s you didn’t like?
I have considered the 5040 for some time. It has been number 2 on the list behind the JVC 400/420.
If I could find a great deal on a 5040, at a price significantly less than the B stock 420, I'd reconsider it. But, again, to avoid buyer's remorse, I'm thinking I should go with the JVC as I would know that I've got the best my budget could afford at this time. I've been envious of JVC owners since purchasing the Mits, so I'm really leaning that direction now that its at a price I can afford.
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Do it SeanCJ ! JVC.
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post #13 of 31 Old 06-19-2018, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanCJ View Post
I have considered the 5040 for some time. It has been number 2 on the list behind the JVC 400/420.

If I could find a great deal on a 5040, at a price significantly less than the B stock 420, I'd reconsider it. But, again, to avoid buyer's remorse, I'm thinking I should go with the JVC as I would know that I've got the best my budget could afford at this time. I've been envious of JVC owners since purchasing the Mits, so I'm really leaning that direction now that its at a price I can afford.


Gotcha.

Unless Epson announces an update/replacement to the 5040ub, which I don’t think will happen for some time, I don’t expect we’ll see any other projectors launch with lens memory in this price range. I think you’re safe.

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post #14 of 31 Old 06-19-2018, 02:40 PM
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I got the 440u a couple weeks ago and it is mind blowingly good. You won't be disappointed with that line.
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post #15 of 31 Old 06-19-2018, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanCJ View Post
I have considered the 5040 for some time. It has been number 2 on the list behind the JVC 400/420.
If I could find a great deal on a 5040, at a price significantly less than the B stock 420, I'd reconsider it. But, again, to avoid buyer's remorse, I'm thinking I should go with the JVC as I would know that I've got the best my budget could afford at this time. I've been envious of JVC owners since purchasing the Mits, so I'm really leaning that direction now that its at a price I can afford.
From what I've seen the only way you're going to find a 5040 cheaper than the B stock 420 is to find a used one. And even then it probably won't be significantly cheaper.

I went with the X570R (RS420) B stock. I recommend you do the same. The picture it throws is really good and the lens memory is great for the CIH setup. The only annoying thing is the 10 second long HDMI handshaking. The benefits of a new RS440 aren't worth the 50% increase in price.

If there will be another option in the next year it should be announced in September. Epson may announce an update to the 5040UB then which would be release later in this year but it will be likely be $2.5k to $3k for the first year that it's out.
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post #16 of 31 Old 06-25-2018, 09:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks again everyone for the input! I ordered the X570 from AVS this weekend. Hope to have it later this week! Very excited. Its been a long time coming and feels like Christmas! Can't wait to get it hooked up. Trying to decide what will be my maiden view on this PJ.
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post #17 of 31 Old 06-25-2018, 01:45 PM
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I've always wondered if there was some technical reason why no DLP projector offers power zoom and focus and thus enabling lens memory. The DLP HT market seems pretty competitive and it seems like one of the manufacturers would offer that feature, if it could be incorporated into the projector at reasonable cost.


It seems like about 75% of the movies I watch are in 2.35 (ish) format, which makes a 2.35 screen a great choice is movie watching is your goal.

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post #18 of 31 Old 06-25-2018, 03:37 PM
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Thanks again everyone for the input! I ordered the X570 from AVS this weekend. Hope to have it later this week! Very excited. Its been a long time coming and feels like Christmas! Can't wait to get it hooked up. Trying to decide what will be my maiden view on this PJ.
Its going to be a substantial upgrade from the HC4900. Good luck and enjoy it
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post #19 of 31 Old 06-25-2018, 03:58 PM
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I've always wondered if there was some technical reason why no DLP projector offers power zoom and focus and thus enabling lens memory. The DLP HT market seems pretty competitive and it seems like one of the manufacturers would offer that feature, if it could be incorporated into the projector at reasonable cost.



It seems like about 75% of the movies I watch are in 2.35 (ish) format, which makes a 2.35 screen a great choice is movie watching is your goal.

Hi, it's definitely possible and was done by Sharp with their 3D DLP in 2013 time frame. I have 2 of these projectors and they are awesome DLP's with some of the best 3D i've seen under 10K.

They have full lens shift, zoom, focus + lens memory. It's a shame this was abandoned by all the other DLP manufacturers.


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post #20 of 31 Old 10-13-2019, 11:41 AM
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What is the lens memory situation about a year after this thread? Have brands added this to more models?
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post #21 of 31 Old 10-13-2019, 08:08 PM
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I am also looking for 4K pixel shifter with power zoom feature to do a 2.35 screen. Was thinking of going with the 5050ub but now it seems some people are having the same power issue that was present on the 5040. I see mention of the jack dla-rs440 for around 3k. I cant find one anyway. Any ideas where I might be able to find one, it looks like a good option.
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post #22 of 31 Old 10-13-2019, 08:33 PM
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I am also looking for 4K pixel shifter with power zoom feature to do a 2.35 screen. Was thinking of going with the 5050ub but now it seems some people are having the same power issue that was present on the 5040. I see mention of the jack dla-rs440 for around 3k. I cant find one anyway. Any ideas where I might be able to find one, it looks like a good option.
To get prices on JVC's you need to use the telephone and call as JVC won't allow authorized dealers to advertise anything but MSRP. The RS540 is the only 1080p eshift projector possibly still in production all the others are discontinued so B stock and left overs are hard to find.

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post #23 of 31 Old 10-14-2019, 10:11 AM
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Thanks for the info. I am coming from a BenQ 1070a so any of these projectors are higher end then I am used to. I have never ventured to the 3k+ forum but as the 5050ub is toeing the line and still seems to have possible power issues I am exploring what else in that range may be out there.
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post #24 of 31 Old 10-15-2019, 08:11 AM
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I have wondered why more people are not digitally scaling now in the day of 4k projectors.

My logic is kind of like this. You have a desired size and immersion level (seating distance) you are going for. Your largest image will be scope if you have a CIH setup or IMAX (Think Dunkirk etc.) if you have a CIH+IMAX setup. Those are the two premier blockbuster formats today and what we will want to see as best as our budgets can allow. So we select a projector that has high enough resolution and high enough brightness to make that happen. Unit brightness and unit pixel spacing are what we are really watching and we deem it as good enough for our very best blockbuster movies.

Now if we scale our Flat 1.85 movies or 16:9 TV so it fits inside a scope screen we still have the unit brightness and the pixel density we had for the other stuff. Shouldn’t it be equally as good? No messing around with zooming and focus and shift just an instantaneous changing of size. And can all be done with a cheaper projector without all those features if we use a HTPC method or get a box to do the sizing. Really some old projectors did this, I had one 17 years ago that had that feature. It would be cheap and easy for DLP to add this and even let us select the scaling and store the AR/size if they wanted to.

Everyone has the mindset they need to use every pixel every time and the only way to do that is with an expensive A-lens setup for scope movies. Most people can’t afford an A-lens even though cheap projectors come with anomorphic compression (scaling) that never gets used. So we have no problem throwing away 1/3 of the pixels to watch a scope movie, but then when we watch TV on a scope screen we feel the need to use every pixel and need extra brightness and greater pixel density.

So why don’t projector manufactures, especially those making <3000 forum projectors just give us a digital zoom feature?

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post #25 of 31 Old 10-15-2019, 12:36 PM
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If you scale a 4K movie to fit within the 2:35 height then you are wasting quite a few lines that the projector can project on nothingness. That sounds like a waste of good 16:9 quality.

It seems the Epson 6050ub is a good choice with lens memory. In the us it’s sold as the pro brother of the 5050 because it gets the higher quality chips and only sold through integrators, in Europe it’s available as TW 9400 from regular retail stores. Guess we got lucky on that one.


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post #26 of 31 Old 10-16-2019, 07:25 AM
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If you scale a 4K movie to fit within the 2:35 height then you are wasting quite a few lines that the projector can project on nothingness. That sounds like a waste of good 16:9 quality.
This then assumes that when we watch a 2.35 movie with the black bars above and below the screen we are watching a less than acceptable quality image.

My point is if with 4k we have hit a point where we can now sit as close as we like to a screen as large as we like and the image resolution is as sharp as we like and as bright as we like nothing will change about that watching a 16:9 image at all the same settings.

If not then we are suffering still with PQ when watching scope movies the only tool we have to improve that is go for an A-Lens setup and forget about zooming. Who wants to watch their best quality media scope and IMAX with worse PQ than TV.

If you go over to the CIH forum most there now agree that the main advantage of an A-Lens is just about brightness as resolution is no longer an issue. Brightness is mostly an issue because of HDR now.

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An A lens was never really about increasing resolution as the data fed to projector is still the same. Scaling of any kind all most always introduces some artifacts as you no longer have one to one pixel mapping. A lenses have generally fallen out of favor because their main advantage was a brighter picture and with todays projectors this is not nearly as much of an issue. They also introduced some keystone that required a curved screen to correct not to mention the high cost. One to one pixel mapping I think is more important then # of pixels used on the projector. I do agree a 2:40 mode that compresses 16:9 content is a great option but was implemented in very few entry level projectors but anyone who cared about the best PQ from their 16:9 content would never use it.























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post #28 of 31 Old 10-17-2019, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rekbones View Post
An A lens was never really about increasing resolution as the data fed to projector is still the same. Scaling of any kind all most always introduces some artifacts as you no longer have one to one pixel mapping. A lenses have generally fallen out of favor because their main advantage was a brighter picture and with todays projectors this is not nearly as much of an issue. They also introduced some keystone that required a curved screen to correct not to mention the high cost. One to one pixel mapping I think is more important then # of pixels used on the projector. I do agree a 2:40 mode that compresses 16:9 content is a great option but was implemented in very few entry level projectors but anyone who cared about the best PQ from their 16:9 content would never use it.

;


True an A-lens doesn’t make more data but it does use more of the pixels a projector has and it does it thru a scaling process. The question always will be does the resulting more pixels and of course brightness outweigh any problems the scaling causes? I will say scaling is a very small issue anymore.

For four years I used a WXGA projector mostly as a 720 projector and I feed it constant diet or both DVD and BD thru a BD player outputting a 1080p version of everything so DVD was being scalled up to 1080p in the player and back down to 720p by the projector and the outcome was perfectly beautiful every time. The reviewer at PC went as far as saying don’t even worry about doing some keystone adjustments as it is scaling but so will almost everything else you will ever be watching on it and it all looks great.

We had a nice relationship for a while in the age of 1080p projectors and 1080p BD media and 1080 TV as things matched up. Now 4k comes along and people have vast amounts of 1080 media still so we are back to scaling again.

If I am watching a movie on my PC and I grab the corner of the media player window and resize the window the movie scales on the fly and no matter where I size it looks perfect. My screen resolution is so good I can’t see pixels and that doesn’t change if I size it super small. If I’m watching say a music video of Hank Williams from the 1930s someone captured on film and it didn’t weather time well it actually looks better when it is less immersive even with the pixels size not changing.

I’m not an advocate for A-Lens in any way and there are drawbacks you mentioned with distortions the lens can cause. My cheap 1080p projector even has scaling features that would help with them as I have 4way keystone and even can manipulate each corner of the image correcting pincushion and barrel distortions to some degree. Even though I don’t use these features as I have a flat screen and square and level setup, I have played with them and they seem to work without artifacts.

My point more is of course power zoom, focus and shift are nice features and if they are programmable its even better and they do appear more on the upper tier machines. Another budget friendly option for CIH or better CIH+IMAX especially in the 4k world could be scaling. The thought process would be is it more important to live with poor presentation and CIW or enjoy proper presentation with CIH or CIH+IMAX doing it with scaling.

For a few months with my 1080p projector I did the scaling method with my laptop based HTPC and PQ wise I had no issues. My PC was limited as I didn’t have a TV tuner and it only has a DVD player, but for Netflix and such scaling things thru the PC and leaving the projector set to IMAX size wasn’t an issue and none of my family members noticed except they didn’t like not knowing how to run it. After that I went to the inclined projector slide method for zoom, shift and focus and that’s been working good for CIH+IMAX for over a year now. They like the simplicity of just moving the projector.

It would be great IMO if the scaling could be done in the projector though and then it wouldn’t matter what was feeding it. I think scaling has surpassed optics in terms of a entry level proper presentation method.

Bud
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post #29 of 31 Old 10-17-2019, 10:03 AM
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That scaling is fine because people wouldn’t see the difference is like saying that Tidal Hifi shouldn’t exist because nobody hears the difference with regular audio. If you have a 4K source and a fine detail is a line of exactly one pixel and you are close enough to see that detail, the chance of destroying that detail when scaled down (to fit it inside the scope area) is always present. There will always be loss when source and display are no longer 1:1 in terms of pixels.


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post #30 of 31 Old 10-17-2019, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rekbones View Post
To get prices on JVC's you need to use the telephone and call as JVC won't allow authorized dealers to advertise anything but MSRP. The RS540 is the only 1080p eshift projector possibly still in production all the others are discontinued so B stock and left overs are hard to find.
There is still some stock out there for the RS540, but it is officially discontinued. The NX5 B-stock can be had for close to the $3k price point mentioned and with the new dynamic tonemapping firmware for HDR is certainly worth considering.

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