2k Budget HW45ES or budget 4k? - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 85 Old 07-28-2018, 03:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Dirk504 View Post
I've had my Sony 45es for 2 years and I'd easily recommend it. It's so good, that I'm not even in a rush to upgrade to a 4k PJ.
Same here. Particularly with Bluray, it's just a stunning image. I have very little desire to make any changes.
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post #32 of 85 Old 07-28-2018, 10:29 AM
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Thanks to the many thread contributors I think my point has been made that there are two distinct groups on the issue of sharper, more detailed image vs. black levels and all-around performance. Everyone in both groups appears to be satisfied that they made the right choice for their own personal preferences. Anyone trying to choose between the two options simply needs to understand their own personal preferences enough to know which group they best fit in. A third option is to move up a class to JVC.
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post #33 of 85 Old 07-28-2018, 05:30 PM
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I'm sure most of us fall into both groups but many have a preference for over-all image quality above all else (sharpness fanatic = guilty).

However, the sharpest/most detailed image on the block simply cannot take the place of far superior contrast when it comes to the end result, just like how most seem to agree that HDR is a more substantial upgrade versus 4K resolution.

The current XPR units are simply a 'meh' when it comes to contrast but they absolutely have the resolution aspect nailed (especially at the price point).

JVC(benq) really should have taken their XPR offering a bit further.

What we need is a reasonable combination of both (along with low input lag) that falls into this area of the forum (sign me up when that happens).


* I would own an XPR unit strictly for 4K/60hz gaming if there was a unit that offered more reasonable input lag (under 30ms).

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post #34 of 85 Old 08-01-2018, 05:53 PM
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I bought a Sony VPL-HW45ES two years ago. The room is a darkened room, but the room isn't perfectly light controlled as the walls are still moderately light in colour. I didn't want a bat cave, and I couldn't be bothered to repaint all the walls anyway. I also don't like dark ceilings.

Because of the above and because there is no iris, blacks are more grey and sometimes some scenes can look a bit washed out. But usually, it looks quite good. I'm also impressed by Sony's upscaling algorithms. Better than most of the competition.

There are other issues though:

1. I want Atmos tracks but some studios only release Atmos on 4K disks. So I bought 4K player only to realize that 4K discs don't look right on SDR equipment. So I returned the inexpensive Philips 4K UHD Blu-ray player and then I bought Panasonic UB400 in order to do proper HDR to SDR conversion, so that I can get the Atmos tracks. BTW, it seems the Philips was just a rebranded Panasonic, but missing the HDR to SDR converter. Everything else seemed nearly identical on the two machines, including the odd interface.

2. It turns out I couldn't play Netflix AT ALL on that 4K UHD player. The player is happy to downsample 4K to 1080p for 4K UHD Blu-ray but not for Netflix. The Netflix app would simply refuse to launch, saying I don't have the DRM support. So, I then went out and bought a "special" HDMI splitter that does the handshaking and solves the DRM issue, and that allows me to watch Netflix. Interestingly, only 1080p h.264 streams are sent. There is no 4K HEVC streaming that is downsampled to 1080p.

3. Not sure about the projector, but my Bell 4K TV PVR refuses to handshake through my receiver to my 1080p TV. Just doesn't work. Works fine directly connected to the 1080p TV and works fine through the receiver to a 4K TV, but won't work through the receiver to a 1080p TV. It gives me a DRM message again.

In retrospect I would have been much happier if the projector just had the option to accept 4K inputs and downsampled them to 1080p, although that would also mean it would need to do HDR to SDR conversion ideally. It could cause image quality issues I suppose (because of HDR), but it would certainly be less painful for the handshaking issues. However, now that I got everything dialled in, I'm good with my setup.

However, my next purchase will not be a projector. Not a 1080p projector, nor a 4K projector. It will be a 4K TV, likely higher end VA panel, at about 75-85 inches. I'd go with OLED, but can't stomach the cost. I will likely spend about $2500-$4000 US for my TV, as long as it has good native contrast and blacks, and proper local dimming.

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post #35 of 85 Old 08-02-2018, 04:28 PM
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I was stuck between the Sony 45ES and Optoma UHD65. In the end, I picked up the Optoma since I had plans to switch to 4k and atmos. If I had no concerns with 4k and atmos, I would have saved a lot of money going with the Sony. I did spend some time looking at the 45ES pictures. I don't feel like I'm missing much. The Optoma throws a fantastic picture for its price. I'm about 11-12 feet away and I can definitely see difference between 10080p, 4k and HDR bluray on a 110" elite aeon cinewhite in a dark room with black painted wall to ceiling, black rug and black blackout curtains. On the contrary, I'm quite certain I would have sold the 45ES by now as I would be wanting atmos as well as 4k HDR.

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post #36 of 85 Old 08-02-2018, 06:23 PM
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This thread has been informative. I have a few questions...

1. If you are using the projector in a living room, does contrast matter as much? We can get it somewhat dark, but the walls and ceiling are white.

2. Will the projector with the better contrast ration make a difference with a black alr screen? I've seen amazing black levels with diy screens.

case in point. he was using a optoma hd141x.


3. If you are old and your eyes aren't so great, does 4k matter?

My last projector was an epson and I considered getting the 2150. Is there any point in me spending extra for the sony 45es for a 22'x20' living room with a 10' ceiling?
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post #37 of 85 Old 08-02-2018, 11:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by yakapo View Post
This thread has been informative. I have a few questions...

1. If you are using the projector in a living room, does contrast matter as much? We can get it somewhat dark, but the walls and ceiling are white.

2. Will the projector with the better contrast ration make a difference with a black alr screen? I've seen amazing black levels with diy screens.



3. If you are old and your eyes aren't so great, does 4k matter?

My last projector was an epson and I considered getting the 2150. Is there any point in me spending extra for the sony 45es for a 22'x20' living room with a 10' ceiling?
Yes a higher contrast projector can still make a difference in a multipurpose room with light colored walls. A projector with better contrast will definitely give better overall picture quality with a alr screen. 4k becomes more beneficial when using larger screens at a closer viewing distance.
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post #38 of 85 Old 08-03-2018, 01:26 AM
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Originally Posted by ttn333 View Post
I was stuck between the Sony 45ES and Optoma UHD65. In the end, I picked up the Optoma since I had plans to switch to 4k and atmos. If I had no concerns with 4k and atmos, I would have saved a lot of money going with the Sony. I did spend some time looking at the 45ES pictures. I don't feel like I'm missing much. The Optoma throws a fantastic picture for its price. I'm about 11-12 feet away and I can definitely see difference between 10080p, 4k and HDR bluray on a 110" elite aeon cinewhite in a dark room with black painted wall to ceiling, black rug and black blackout curtains. On the contrary, I'm quite certain I would have sold the 45ES by now as I would be wanting atmos as well as 4k HDR.
I think you have answered it perfectly, if your main intention is to get 4K and atmos then you should only look at a 4K or 4K upscaling machine.

I think in isolation the Optoma looks exceptional but when I viewed both machines playing simultaneously with the same content the difference was quite noticeable to me as least.

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post #39 of 85 Old 08-03-2018, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by yakapo View Post
1. If you are using the projector in a living room, does contrast matter as much? We can get it somewhat dark, but the walls and ceiling are white.
Contrast is the difference between the brightest and darkest parts of an image a projector can simultaneously put on the screen. Independent measurements with calibrated test equipment have shown the HW45ES to have native contrast of ~6,000:1. Most other projectors <$2,000 have been measured with native contrast of <2,000:1. While imperfect viewing conditions reduce the advantage a projector with better native contrast will always be at least somewhat better than one with worse native contrast. Here's how projectorcentral.com describes it in their HW45ES review:

Quote:
The high contrast ratio yields deep, dark blacks in theater dark lighting and unusually dark blacks even with the lights on. It also gives color that much more pop, adding to a sense of three-dimensionality.
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Originally Posted by yakapo View Post
2. Will the projector with the better contrast ration make a difference with a black alr screen? I've seen amazing black levels with diy screens.
Again, contrast is the difference between the brightest and darkest parts of an image a projector can simultaneously put on the screen. A projector with better native contrast will always have that advantage over one with worse native contrast on any screen.
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post #40 of 85 Old 08-03-2018, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
Contrast is the difference between the brightest and darkest parts of an image a projector can simultaneously put on the screen. Independent measurements with calibrated test equipment have shown the HW45ES to have native contrast of ~6,000:1. Most other projectors <$2,000 have been measured with native contrast of <2,000:1. While imperfect viewing conditions reduce the advantage a projector with better native contrast will always be at least somewhat better than one with worse native contrast. Here's how projectorcentral.com describes it in their HW45ES review:





Again, contrast is the difference between the brightest and darkest parts of an image a projector can simultaneously put on the screen. A projector with better native contrast will always have that advantage over one with worse native contrast on any screen.
Totally agree, even if you can't take advantage of the BEST contrast performance of the projector it will still has better contrast in any room conditions than a projector with worse contrast. This is why I think that it's not crazy to get JVC in pitch black room but with lighter walls, it will still perform better than many others.

But guys, this is the worst period of the year to buy projector, IFA in just 4 weeks

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post #41 of 85 Old 08-04-2018, 04:33 AM
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Interesting.

As mentioned, one annoyance is that my Panasonic UB400 4K player won’t natively output 1080p Netflix on the 45ES. Because it’s a 4K device, Netflix balks at the lack of HDCP 2.2 and refuses to launch. To get it to work (at 1080p) I had to buy a cheater HDMI splitter that negotiates the HDCP 2.2 handshake. (4K disc playback works fine at 1080p without the HDMI cheater at 1080p. It’s just Netflix that is the problem.) This issue is solved with my new Panasonic UB820 because it has a HDCP 1.4 mode that is user selectable, and Netflix is happy to play ball here at 1080p. Unfortunately, this player has lip sync issues in Netflix. I’ll give it time for a firmware though, since this player has been on the market in Canada for less than a week.

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Contrast is the difference between the brightest and darkest parts of an image a projector can simultaneously put on the screen. Independent measurements with calibrated test equipment have shown the HW45ES to have native contrast of ~6,000:1. Most other projectors <$2,000 have been measured with native contrast of <2,000:1. While imperfect viewing conditions reduce the advantage a projector with better native contrast will always be at least somewhat better than one with worse native contrast. Here's how projectorcentral.com describes it in their HW45ES review:

- snip -

Again, contrast is the difference between the brightest and darkest parts of an image a projector can simultaneously put on the screen. A projector with better native contrast will always have that advantage over one with worse native contrast on any screen.
...unless the projector with the worse native contrast has an iris. In the real world, I'd sometimes get better blacks and dynamic contrast on my budget 11 year-old Panasonic AX200U, because it's got an iris. It's an annoyingly implemented iris, but it's an iris nonetheless.

Personally I think Sony needs to just continue to drop the price on the HW65ES. I believe it's dropped from US$3999 to US$2999 MSRP, but it'd be nice to see it cheaper than that, as it seems to be the HW45ES with an iris. These 1080p projectors are getting harder and harder to recommend, esp. with without an iris. It's amazing just how much detail is lost on a big screen at 1080p vs. 4K.

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post #42 of 85 Old 08-04-2018, 07:09 AM
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...unless the projector with the worse native contrast has an iris. In the real world, I'd sometimes get better blacks and dynamic contrast on my budget 11 year-old Panasonic AX200U, because it's got an iris. It's an annoyingly implemented iris, but it's an iris nonetheless. ...
I also had a Panasonic PT-AX200U and ended up shutting the iris off because I never liked the way it worked. That's why for my next projector I went for the best native contrast <$2,000, the Sony HW45ES. Native contrast is the true contrast of the projector without using crutches like a dynamic iris or dynamic lamp dimming. They lower black levels by lowering all image light levels so any highlights are also reduced in brightness along with the blacks. They may work for some but they don't work for me. Of course anyone who's OK with the way a dynamic iris or dynamic lamp dimming works doesn't need to be as concerned with native contrast.
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post #43 of 85 Old 08-04-2018, 07:44 AM
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I also had a Panasonic PT-AX200U and ended up shutting the iris off because I never liked the way it worked. That's why for my next projector I went for the best native contrast <$2,000, the Sony HW45ES. Native contrast is the true contrast of the projector without using crutches like a dynamic iris or dynamic lamp dimming. They lower black levels by lowering all image light levels so any highlights are also reduced in brightness along with the blacks. They may work for some but they don't work for me. Of course anyone who's OK with the way a dynamic iris or dynamic lamp dimming works doesn't need to be as concerned with native contrast.
Truth be told, I ended up shutting off that iris too, cuz as mentioned it was not implemented very well. So it ended up in my setup neither projector has great blacks or contrast.

That, and the fact that I want true 4K HDR at an affordable price, is why I'm going with a 75"+ VA LCD for my next purchase (unless somehow there is a crash in 77" OLED pricing in the next year).

I was watching Lost in Space on my 4K TV in the other room yesterday and I can't get over how much more detailed and rich-coloured it looks. ie. 4K Netflix at 15.29 Mbps on my 4K TV looks way better than how 4K UHD Blu-ray at super high bitrates but downsampled to 1080p looks on my projector.

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post #44 of 85 Old 08-07-2018, 09:43 AM
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I was watching Lost in Space on my 4K TV in the other room yesterday and I can't get over how much more detailed and rich-coloured it looks. ie. 4K Netflix at 15.29 Mbps on my 4K TV looks way better than how 4K UHD Blu-ray at super high bitrates but downsampled to 1080p looks on my projector.
That’s odd because I felt the opposite, I’ve got Netflix and watch it both on my 65” 4K Sony TV and up in the HT room on my 45es projector, for me the whole experience was better with the projector, colours, image, everything. In fact I’ve been very busy these last few weeks and only got up into the HT room the other day to watch a movie and was shocked how good it is.

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post #45 of 85 Old 08-07-2018, 09:53 AM
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That’s odd because I felt the opposite, I’ve got Netflix and watch it both on my 65” 4K Sony TV and up in the HT room on my 45es projector, for me the whole experience was better with the projector, colours, image, everything. In fact I’ve been very busy these last few weeks and only got up into the HT room the other day to watch a movie and was shocked how good it is.
How good is your vision and how far do you sit from the screen?
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post #46 of 85 Old 08-07-2018, 01:24 PM
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How good is your vision and how far do you sit from the screen?
Vision definitely isn’t what it use to be but my glasses do give me 20/20 vision, distance away from TV is about 8ft and 11ft from the 100” screen for the projector.

I’m of the opinion the 4K really comes into its own on really big screens 140” plus, below that I think it’s a waste.

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post #47 of 85 Old 08-07-2018, 01:49 PM
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One characteristic I've always preferred in front projection over TVs is that an image reflected off of a matte screen strikes me as more natural than the backlit or emissive image on a TV screen. I'm not really sure why but I've considered that it may be related to the fact that most of what we see in the real world is reflected light. When we look at a tree or a bird or someone's face we are seeing light reflected off of that object. That could be why I perceive a high quality projected image to appear more natural. Of course if the definition isn't high enough for the image size, viewing distance and our individual eyesight acuity to prevent us from perceiving pixelation, that will spoil some of the natural look, whether projected or on TV.
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post #48 of 85 Old 08-07-2018, 07:48 PM
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Vision definitely isn’t what it use to be but my glasses do give me 20/20 vision, distance away from TV is about 8ft and 11ft from the 100” screen for the projector.

I’m of the opinion the 4K really comes into its own on really big screens 140” plus, below that I think it’s a waste.
High dynamic range makes a pretty significant difference too.
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However, my next purchase will not be a projector. Not a 1080p projector, nor a 4K projector. It will be a 4K TV, likely higher end VA panel, at about 75-85 inches. I'd go with OLED, but can't stomach the cost. I will likely spend about $2500-$4000 US for my TV, as long as it has good native contrast and blacks, and proper local dimming.
I was considering doing the exact same thing, 4K OLEDs are awesome, but quite honestly, the 1080p resolution of my DLP at my viewing distance (as I type this) is quite sufficiently sharp to convince me I don't need to downgrade from 140 inch diagonal to half that (or a quarter that in terms of surface area). What really matters most in terms of image quality isn't 4K over 1080p, it's full HDR over SDR.

I'd rather a massive SDR image, even one as cheap and garbage as my w1070, than even getting a FREE 4K OLED of 75 inches or less. I wouldn't use it. Most content isn't even real 4K, and at those smaller sizes, 4K doesn't even matter, certainly not preferable to even a cheap 1080p DLP. Seriously, a bigger image is better than a better contrast and smaller one. (when comparing 140 inches diagonal to 75 inches, which is frankly pathetic in comparison).

Bigger IS better. Period.
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post #50 of 85 Old 08-07-2018, 09:06 PM
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I was considering doing the exact same thing, 4K OLEDs are awesome, but quite honestly, the 1080p resolution of my DLP at my viewing distance (as I type this) is quite sufficiently sharp to convince me I don't need to downgrade from 140 inch diagonal to half that (or a quarter that in terms of surface area). What really matters most in terms of image quality isn't 4K over 1080p, it's full HDR over SDR.

I'd rather a massive SDR image, even one as cheap and garbage as my w1070, than even getting a FREE 4K OLED of 75 inches or less. I wouldn't use it. Most content isn't even real 4K, and at those smaller sizes, 4K doesn't even matter, certainly not preferable to even a cheap 1080p DLP. Seriously, a bigger image is better than a better contrast and smaller one. (when comparing 140 inches diagonal to 75 inches, which is frankly pathetic in comparison).

Bigger IS better. Period.
Well, I've been revising my choice. Instead of going from my 90" projection image from my 45ES to a 75" VA LCD TV, I'm considering going to a 65" OLED. Seriously. 65" is a little small, but OLED is just so frickin' awesome. I just have to check the pricing. If the pricing is within the budget I'm considering, then I'll probably get it. If not, I'll go rethink my plan.

Note though the measurements are not quite comparable. The TV would be sitting on a TV stand about 1.5 to 2 feet in front of the wall, so it effectively would be roughly the equivalent of a 75-80" screen if the seats are not moved. ie. It'd be akin to moving the seats 1.5 - 2 feet closer, from 9 to 7.x feet.

I'd be over the moon with a 77" OLED, but I just can't justify the price.

BTW, I've been known to walk out of a movie theatre and getting my money back because of bad movie projection quality. But that was really bad, and noticeably worse than what I have at home with my 45ES. When I go to the theatre for a blockbuster, I like going to the local IMAX with dual super bright 4K laser projectors. I went to The Force Awakens and it was very good on that system. That was noticeably better than what I have at home in terms of image quality. Then I went again to a LieMAX in a strip mall to see the same movie and it was frickin' horrible IMO, despite the size. That was significantly worse than what I have in terms of image quality.
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post #51 of 85 Old 08-07-2018, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
Vision definitely isn’t what it use to be but my glasses do give me 20/20 vision, distance away from TV is about 8ft and 11ft from the 100” screen for the projector.

I’m of the opinion the 4K really comes into its own on really big screens 140” plus, below that I think it’s a waste.
Just wanted to know at what circumstances you say that the 1080p Sony is sharp enough. But this Sony looks sharper than the regular 1080p projectors anyway.

Like we mentioned before 4K alone is not the real deal, HDR is more noticeable even though it's limited on projectors compared to TVs but still gives better depth and wider color gamut.

But to be honest the real problem is device compatibility and the choice of disc format, the only reasons against buying 1080p projectors with HDMI 1.4. However I think 4K streamers like the Apple TV 4K can work fine with 1080p screens but playing 4K Blu-Rays can be tricky, you need a player that can do good HDR to SDR conversion which is any recent Panasonic player.

Lots of people have this problem, jumping to 4K projector can be done anytime but you need to carefully decide which disc format you buy because transitioning your physical content to a new format is much worse than replacing a 1080p projector.

People who are not over the moon when they hear 3D sound (Atmos, DTS:X etc) are lucky because 3D sound is an another reason to buy 4K discs, those soundtracks are now pretty much 4K exclusive.

Gaming is not affected by these so if someone just watch 2-3 movies per month then 1080P projector could be better choice. Cheaper to build a PC for that resolution and the refreshed consoles can supersample the image to 1080p so you can have good picture quality.

So in conclusion, everybody need to make a list with pros and cons in their usage and decide if the extra money worth it for the 4K projector, content and replacing other equipment like AVR and HDMI cables etc.
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post #52 of 85 Old 08-08-2018, 09:00 AM
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Well, I've been revising my choice. Instead of going from my 90" projection image from my 45ES to a 75" VA LCD TV, I'm considering going to a 65" OLED. Seriously. 65" is a little small, but OLED is just so frickin' awesome. I just have to check the pricing. If the pricing is within the budget I'm considering, then I'll probably get it. If not, I'll go rethink my plan.

Note though the measurements are not quite comparable. The TV would be sitting on a TV stand about 1.5 to 2 feet in front of the wall, so it effectively would be roughly the equivalent of a 75-80" screen if the seats are not moved. ie. It'd be akin to moving the seats 1.5 - 2 feet closer, from 9 to 7.x feet.

I'd be over the moon with a 77" OLED, but I just can't justify the price.

BTW, I've been known to walk out of a movie theatre and getting my money back because of bad movie projection quality. But that was really bad, and noticeably worse than what I have at home with my 45ES. When I go to the theatre for a blockbuster, I like going to the local IMAX with dual super bright 4K laser projectors. I went to The Force Awakens and it was very good on that system. That was noticeably better than what I have at home in terms of image quality. Then I went again to a LieMAX in a strip mall to see the same movie and it was frickin' horrible IMO, despite the size. That was significantly worse than what I have in terms of image quality.
Yeah, for me it's the size. 65" is tiny. 77" is still pathetically small. I'd love a 100" OLED but we're a ways away from that being in the realm of affordability.


Currently I sit 9' away from a 100" screen (9 feet to my eye ball not to my chair). This is still too small for my taste but I'm now running up against throw limitations in my room.

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post #53 of 85 Old 08-09-2018, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy View Post
Well, I've been revising my choice. Instead of going from my 90" projection image from my 45ES to a 75" VA LCD TV, I'm considering going to a 65" OLED. Seriously. 65" is a little small, but OLED is just so frickin' awesome. I just have to check the pricing. If the pricing is within the budget I'm considering, then I'll probably get it. If not, I'll go rethink my plan.
Rethink this if you haven't decided yet. I have a 65" Sony 4k TV in the room right next to my home theater, and while it's nice, my 120" screen dwarfs it. And tbh, when I'm watching 1080p movies on my 45es, I'm not wishing they were in 4k. If I were you, I would at least see what CEDIA offers this year.

Also, I read some people mention the HDR to SDR conversion is bad on their players. The OPPO 203 handles the conversion really well, so I watch all 4k movies with Atmos on my 45es. Currently own 37 of them.
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post #54 of 85 Old 08-09-2018, 09:45 PM
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Rethink this if you haven't decided yet. I have a 65" Sony 4k TV in the room right next to my home theater, and while it's nice, my 120" screen dwarfs it. And tbh, when I'm watching 1080p movies on my 45es, I'm not wishing they were in 4k. If I were you, I would at least see what CEDIA offers this year.
Too late. I already bought a 65" OLED today, the LG B7P. I am very pleased. I will be selling the 45ES soon. The blacks are so black that in the case of a black screen, it looks like the TV is just turned off, which effectively it is.

Yes, it's comparatively small, but the picture is that much better and I (now) sit relatively close. Plus I can now even have some ambient light in the room without destroying the picture.

Note though my projector image before was "only" 90", and the image was projected 2 feet behind where the TV is currently sitting, so effectively my viewing distance is now two feet less than before.

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Also, I read some people mention the HDR to SDR conversion is bad on their players. The OPPO 203 handles the conversion really well, so I watch all 4k movies with Atmos on my 45es. Currently own 37 of them.
I have the Panasonic UB400 and the UB820, two of the best in the world for HDR to SDR conversion, and the UB400/700/900 is rated superior to the Oppo 203 overall, at least according to Vincent Teoh. The UB820 doesn't have many reviews yet, but if anything, it should be superior to the UB900, due to the tone mapping it can do to adjust for specific display types. I currently have mine set to "OLED", for obvious reasons.

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post #55 of 85 Old 08-09-2018, 11:55 PM
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It's kind of sad that 2K and under price range the answer is always 45es, even many years after it came out. Had I known this, I would've upgraded a long time ago, but buying one now just seems foolish given how quickly the market is changing.
Agreed. Its a pity that there isnt a new model "xyz" with the same specs and quality as the 45es, but cheaper and more compact.
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post #56 of 85 Old 08-13-2018, 05:41 PM
 
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Totally agree, even if you can't take advantage of the BEST contrast performance of the projector it will still has better contrast in any room conditions than a projector with worse contrast. This is why I think that it's not crazy to get JVC in pitch black room but with lighter walls, it will still perform better than many others.
This is not correct. When there is ambient lighting in the room and you have two projectors with the same lumens but different contrast levels then it won't matter. The lighting will rob contrast of any advantages they have regardless of how good they are, which is why you have never seen people set up JVCs for daytime viewing. You can try it by viewing different shades of grey and see if you can still see them with a bit of lighting in the room, you can't. Increased brightness would just wash out the colors.

This is the reason why you have the same people preaching about bat caves and going crazy trying to fill every single white spot in the room with black or darken cloth and curtains just to prevent light reflection interference and make sure that they don't lose contrast, certainly something that none of the TV people need to go through.
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post #57 of 85 Old 08-14-2018, 07:19 AM
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This is not correct. When there is ambient lighting in the room and you have two projectors with the same lumens but different contrast levels then it won't matter. The lighting will rob contrast of any advantages they have regardless of how good they are, which is why you have never seen people set up JVCs for daytime viewing. You can try it by viewing different shades of grey and see if you can still see them with a bit of lighting in the room, you can't. Increased brightness would just wash out the colors.

This is the reason why you have the same people preaching about bat caves and going crazy trying to fill every single white spot in the room with black or darken cloth and curtains just to prevent light reflection interference and make sure that they don't lose contrast, certainly something that none of the TV people need to go through.
There are many JVC owners with lighter walls and just black around the screen and they still think that the contrast is better than with other projectors. The X5900 is barely more than the Epson TW9300 for example, but has full bandwidth HDMI ports so in this case why not to choose the JVC even if you don't have the perfect room for it. We'll see what will be the price of the TW9400 and the low end D-ILA JVC, but I guess the price gap will be similar.
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post #58 of 85 Old 08-14-2018, 08:21 AM
 
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There are many JVC owners with lighter walls and just black around the screen and they still think that the contrast is better than with other projectors. The X5900 is barely more than the Epson TW9300 for example, but has full bandwidth HDMI ports so in this case why not to choose the JVC even if you don't have the perfect room for it. We'll see what will be the price of the TW9400 and the low end D-ILA JVC, but I guess the price gap will be similar.
It is slightly better because they do have enough brightness to differentiate shades at the upper end of the color scale, but it still can't produce the darkest color shades (ie. black) at the lower end when there's ambient lighting. The excellent black levels will be just as good as the darkest color on the bare screen which definitely won't be black, therefore none of the other shades of black is going to turn up either. With the exception of the JVC DLA-Z1 with 3000 lumens, the rest of them are 2000 lumens or less. It's just not enough to beat physics, unfortunately.
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post #59 of 85 Old 08-14-2018, 08:40 AM
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It is slightly better because they do have enough brightness to differentiate shades at the upper end of the color scale, but it still can't produce the darkest color shades (ie. black) at the lower end when there's ambient lighting. The excellent black levels will be just as good as the darkest color on the bare screen which definitely won't be black, therefore none of the other shades of black is going to turn up either. With the exception of the JVC DLA-Z1 with 3000 lumens, the rest of them are 2000 lumens or less. It's just not enough to beat physics, unfortunately.
Are you saying that a brighter but with lower contrast projector can beat the JVC if the walls are not black? Is this also true to the HW45?
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post #60 of 85 Old 08-14-2018, 11:42 AM
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how the uniformity of black with hw45es ?


i should change my projectors as my mitsubishis are getting defect partially. Got an great offer on two jvc units but currently i don´t know do i wan´t to put that much into the process.
Sonys would be good unless there is those sxrd bright corners as my mitsubishis have. they give eye rivaly. Then my only option is to wait for enough cash to get couple jvc´s.

Bought an philips OLED into my living room. Luke Cage for example looked super sweet from netflix but after week i felt it´s just a TV compared to my stereo setup, after 8 years it still gives the wow factor everytime gaming 3D or watching some 3d movies. 4K is awsome but at the same time just so booring flat. Anyways philips had software errors, some code problems but some were just annoynces caused by the OLED, like the fact once the tv just shut down and said something about needed to fresh the panel to remove any retention images. Can´t have that so i end up swithcing my living room tv into LG´s Super UHD 2018 model. It´s awsome.Black level is low enough, great original speakers and that thin as F Oled panel was a pain to move without constantly fearing you gonna brake it. Someone propably says you need to get some theater audio, no
I have my Atmos setup where i watch movies, along with a PROJECTORs. Like someone said bigger is better. That´s true no matter fullhd or 4k.
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