2k Budget HW45ES or budget 4k? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 85 Old 08-14-2018, 12:07 PM
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A projector's black level performance is at its best in a perfectly dark room with all black surfaces that don't reflect light from the screen image back onto the screen. That's when projectors with great native black levels like the JVC have their biggest advantage over less capable projectors. For many it's worth optimizing a dedicated theater room to take advantage of that superior performance.

As room surfaces become lighter in color and/or ambient light is increased the advantage of great native black levels is slowly eroded. It's not as if there's an on-off switch where great black levels are instantly neutralized the moment a viewing environment is reduced from 100% optimized to 99% optimized. It becomes a value judgment based on personal preferences as to what point of compromised room environment (90%, 80%, 70%, etc.) the higher cost of a projector with great native black levels reaches the point of not being worth the added investment.
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post #62 of 85 Old 08-14-2018, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by fatallerror View Post
Are you saying that a brighter but with lower contrast projector can beat the JVC if the walls are not black? Is this also true to the HW45?
Dave in Green put it best, generally white walls alone do not cause a major hit to native contrast (some), but it is ambient light that kills native contrast more so.
Any light reflecting back onto the screen affects it marginally, but as long as the side white walls are not right next to the screen, then the amount of contrast you lose is mostly from the carpet and ceiling.

You can fight it with a retro-reflective screen, but too bad no good retro screens anymore (hah retro-reflective is retro now).

Perception is important too though, darkening the room helps a TON with perception and how the contrast is perceived.
So the answer is, yes the JVC will still 'usually' help some depending on the room,
but blacken the room out and the improvements will be much larger (but also on every projector it will help).

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post #63 of 85 Old 08-14-2018, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Dave in Green put it best, generally white walls alone do not cause a major hit to native contrast (some), but it is ambient light that kills native contrast more so.
Any light reflecting back onto the screen affects it marginally, but as long as the side white walls are not right next to the screen, then the amount of contrast you lose is mostly from the carpet and ceiling.

You can fight it with a retro-reflective screen, but too bad no good retro screens anymore (hah retro-reflective is retro now).

Perception is important too though, darkening the room helps a TON with perception and how the contrast is perceived.
So the answer is, yes the JVC will still 'usually' help some depending on the room,
but blacken the room out and the improvements will be much larger (but also on every projector it will help).
This is how I know too, this is why I don't entirely understand rocklee. Previously we were talking about contrast, maybe he thought that we think that we can have max contrast with light walls or I don't know what he thought

I don't know how is Dave's room look like but he seems to have dark room with HW45 and probably experimented how drastically light can lower contrast since he explained himself pretty well many posts earlier and others agreed with him too
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post #64 of 85 Old 08-14-2018, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by dexx View Post
Agreed. Its a pity that there isnt a new model "xyz" with the same specs and quality as the 45es, but cheaper and more compact.

Lol! I mean, I’m about 1000% sure that if a manufacturer had the capability to do that they would have done it already.

No offense but this statement just seems very funny to me. It’s like asking for something for nothing. It sort of implies that there isn’t value to the Sony 45ES or that it’s design and cost was arbitrarily chosen and not the result of millions of dollars of research, design, engineering, and manufacturing.

Here, replace “45ES” with literally anything else and read it back to see what I mean. For example:

“Its a pity that there isnt a new model "xyz" with the same specs and quality as the Porsche, but cheaper and more compact.”

Or

“Its a pity that there isnt a new model "xyz" with the same specs and quality as the PS4, but cheaper and more compact.”

See what I’m saying?

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post #65 of 85 Old 08-14-2018, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by fatallerror View Post
… I don't know how is Dave's room look like but he seems to have dark room with HW45 and probably experimented how drastically light can lower contrast since he explained himself pretty well many posts earlier and others agreed with him too
My HW45ES is in a somewhat compromised mixed use family room. Walls and carpet are medium colored and absorb a lot of reflected light from the screen, but the ceiling is white. My wife and I either view in the dark or she often has a small directional light she uses to occasionally check her knitting as she likes to knit while watching movies. Even with the white ceiling and small directional light I notice a big improvement in black levels over my previous Panasonic 3LCD projector.

Funny story: One night we started watching a movie and it struck me that the blacks were more washed out than usual. I looked over at my wife and she was wearing a long sleeve white top that was lit up by the small directional lamp as if a spotlight was hitting it. I paused the movie and politely asked that she change to a darker top. After she did I restarted the movie and there was a significant improvement in black levels because the amount of ambient light being reflected onto the screen was greatly reduced.

Of course like many people she didn't really notice the black levels. She gets into the movie itself and isn't aware of small technical details that those of us on this forum read about on a daily bass. For people who aren't sensitive to finer image details like that it probably doesn't make sense to spend a lot of extra money chasing after the best black levels.
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post #66 of 85 Old 08-14-2018, 02:48 PM
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I paused the movie and politely asked that she change to a darker top.
Haha! I don't know why but this made my day. Thanks Dave.


Btw, my fiancée would have just flipped me the bird or told me to go fornicate myself. Relationship goals right here.

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post #67 of 85 Old 08-14-2018, 04:13 PM
 
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Are you saying that a brighter but with lower contrast projector can beat the JVC if the walls are not black? Is this also true to the HW45?
I'm talking about ambient lighting because I have more experience than most here about it. It doesn't matter if you sport a JVC or whatever, projected lighting can't beat ambient lighting (or direct sunlight). These guys just said the same thing I did. These projectors can't operate well without being in a completely dark room and no nearby walls to reflect lighting back onto the pictures. They are as sensitive as hell when it comes to room conditions, no amount of fans bantering around can change that.

To add, does the Sony suffer from SXRD degradation that affected all their other models? Apart from the other issues that the Sony had, this was one of the main things that made me drop Sony from my list quite easily. I expect a $2000 projector to be completely issue-free, not suffer from brightness and contrast degradation over time:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...4k-panels.html

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post #68 of 85 Old 08-14-2018, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by rocklee View Post
I'm talking about ambient lighting because I have more experience than most here about it. It doesn't matter if you sport a JVC or whatever, projected lighting can't beat ambient lighting (or direct sunlight). These guys just said the same thing I did. These projectors can't operate well without being in a completely dark room and no nearby walls to reflect lighting back onto the pictures. They are as sensitive as hell when it comes to room conditions, no amount of fans bantering around can change that.

To add, does the Sony suffer from SXRD degradation that affected all their other models? Apart from the other issues that the Sony had, this was one of the main things that made me drop Sony from my list quite easily. I expect a $2000 projector to be completely issue-free, not suffer from brightness and contrast degradation over time:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...4k-panels.html
Nobody said that JVC would have better contrast in a room with ambient lights. We were still talking about dark room but without all black walls, only black around the screen. So we said that in a room like this the JVC would still have better contrast

I remember to this issue on 2015 models but I though that the HW45ES don't have this problem

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Funny story: One night we started watching a movie and it struck me that the blacks were more washed out than usual. I looked over at my wife and she was wearing a long sleeve white top that was lit up by the small directional lamp as if a spotlight was hitting it. I paused the movie and politely asked that she change to a darker top. After she did I restarted the movie and there was a significant improvement in black levels because the amount of ambient light being reflected onto the screen was greatly reduced.

Of course like many people she didn't really notice the black levels. She gets into the movie itself and isn't aware of small technical details that those of us on this forum read about on a daily bass. For people who aren't sensitive to finer image details like that it probably doesn't make sense to spend a lot of extra money chasing after the best black levels.
Haha maybe I have dirty mind but as I was reading the highlighted lines I thought that you asked her to just take off her top

Contrast is indeed kinda the most important thing and if the extra price for it is not that much then worth it. I would take a 100+ inch picture over a 65 inch OLED any day
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post #69 of 85 Old 08-15-2018, 01:05 AM
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The X5900 is barely more than the Epson TW9300 for example, but has full bandwidth HDMI ports so in this case why not to choose the JVC even if you don't have the perfect room for it. We'll see what will be the price of the TW9400 and the low end D-ILA JVC, but I guess the price gap will be similar.
Actually JVC's prices in Europe are pretty steep: 4300,- EUR for the X5900 vs 2500,- EUR for the TW9300. Add to that 520,- EUR lamp cost for the JVC vs 120,- EUR for the Epson. That's the only reason preventing me from upgrading to a JVC. I'm a heavy user and like to change the lamp after 2000 hours. I go through 2 lamps a year.

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post #70 of 85 Old 08-15-2018, 01:28 AM
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Actually JVC's prices in Europe are pretty steep: 4300,- EUR for the X5900 vs 2500,- EUR for the TW9300. Add to that 520,- EUR lamp cost for the JVC vs 120,- EUR for the Epson. That's the only reason preventing me from upgrading to a JVC. I'm a heavy user and like to change the lamp after 2000 hours. I go through 2 lamps a year.
In my country the difference is just 500 euros (meaning that the Epson is expensive here) but checked and indeed in other countries the difference is 1000+ euros. The lamp part is true here too though, JVC lamps are way too expensive.

Fingers crossed that the Epson TW9400 will fix the power supply quality problems. Obviously now they will use 18Gbps HDMI ports and will be better in picture quality too and if the starting price will be between 2500 and 3000 euros then that will be a best buy.
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post #71 of 85 Old 08-15-2018, 01:36 AM
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In my country the difference is just 500 euros (meaning that the Epson is expensive here) but checked and indeed in other countries the difference is 1000+ euros. The lamp part is true here too though, JVC lamps are way too expensive.

Fingers crossed that the Epson TW9400 will fix the power supply quality problems. Obviously now they will use 18Gbps HDMI ports and will be better in picture quality too and if the starting price will be between 2500 and 3000 euros then that will be a best buy.
I've never read of a TW9300 having power supply issues. I have a TW9300W with over 6500 operational hours on it and another TW9300 with over 3000 hours and both perform without a hiccup. I think that the power supply issue is only relevant to the North American market and concerns only the 5040/6040 models.
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post #72 of 85 Old 08-15-2018, 01:42 AM
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i love my vplhw45es and could not be happier. that being said if you can wait a couple months until the dust settles from CEDIA you can likely either get the 45 cheaper or the price on something much better might come down to your budget.
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post #73 of 85 Old 08-15-2018, 02:30 AM
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I've never read of a TW9300 having power supply issues. I have a TW9300W with over 6500 operational hours on it and another TW9300 with over 3000 hours and both perform without a hiccup. I think that the power supply issue is only relevant to the North American market and concerns only the 5040/6040 models.
Really? This is awesome then. I thought that it's present everywhere. Now I'm more confident that the 9400 will kickass
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post #74 of 85 Old 08-15-2018, 03:09 AM
 
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Nobody said that JVC would have better contrast in a room with ambient lights. We were still talking about dark room but without all black walls, only black around the screen. So we said that in a room like this the JVC would still have better contrast
I'm talking about at the black and near black levels, which is the ONLY reason for getting a JVC. The slightest bit of light interference and distraction from the wall or ceiling will affect the contrast performance in particular at those levels, these projectors are VERY SENSITIVE to light distractions. That's why you'll never ever see a JVC used for daytime usage. The Sony isn't even part of the conversation because of its low lumens (1800) and average contrast. I know because I have access to a dark room full of JVCs, Sonys, Epson etc. and seeing of these projectors side by side. That said, the JVC does look better to me compared to the Sony.

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I remember to this issue on 2015 models but I though that the HW45ES don't have this problem
All Sony projectors using this technology are affected unfortunately, the HW45ES bulb replacements are around $270USD if you're willing to experiment and find a solution for this issue, personally I would move onto newer and more reliable solutions.

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post #75 of 85 Old 08-15-2018, 03:54 AM
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I'm talking about at the black and near black levels, which is the ONLY reason for getting a JVC. The slightest bit of light interference and distraction from the wall or ceiling will affect the contrast performance in particular at those levels, these projectors are VERY SENSITIVE to light distractions. That's why you'll never ever see a JVC used for daytime usage. The Sony isn't even part of the conversation because of its low lumens (1800) and average contrast. I know because I have access to a dark room full of JVCs, Sonys, Epson etc. and seeing of these projectors side by side. That said, the JVC does look better to me compared to the Sony.



All Sony projectors using this technology are affected unfortunately, the HW45ES bulb replacements are around $270USD if you're willing to experiment and find a solution for this issue, personally I would move onto newer and more reliable solutions.
Try the Epson in a let's say medium grey wall (screen wall area black) in pitch black room and then in the same room the JVC, JVC still should give better contrast, not its best contrast performance of course, nobody said that.

Sad to hear that about the Sony, I guess this years lineup won't be different.

JVC really should price the successor of the X5900 around 3000 euros to be competitive with Epson. faux 4k shouldn't be more than that.
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post #76 of 85 Old 08-15-2018, 04:11 AM
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I own a JVC and a DLP (side by side), and have for years.
I have had both projectors in 5 different rooms over the years (I move a lot).

If the entire room is bright white, yes that does put a big hit on the contrast, but the JVC will still have the darker blacks.
The room color by itself is not enough to kill off ALL the difference (not between a DLP and a JVC), maybe between a JVC and Epson (since they are closer).

So would it still be worth it for Sci Fi or dark movies to own a JVC over a DLP in an all white room?
I would say Yes, but it partly depends on just how bad the room is and how close the side walls are.
A very large room with all white walls is totally different than a small room with white walls.

The black levels of most DLP's are just so bright that they keep the entire room more lit up. The reason the JVC still appears darker with white walls is because
the entire room gets darker from it emitting less light in dark scenes overall. How much 'better' the JVC looks in a bad room just depends on a lot of factors.

Now, if you add even just a tiny bit of ambient light, then the room will marginalize the difference much more.

The biggest killer of contrast (aside from ambient light) are the immediate side walls.
If the side walls are too close to the screen, that causes a big hit both perceptually and reflecting on the screen.

Next, is the carpet, then the ceiling, and the backwall is last.

If you can get the sidewalls and the carpet dark, then go from there.
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post #77 of 85 Old 08-15-2018, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by fatallerror View Post
… Haha maybe I have dirty mind but as I was reading the highlighted lines I thought that you asked her to just take off her top ...
That was after the movie.

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… Sad to hear that about the Sony, I guess this years lineup won't be different. ...
I spent a lot of time researching the Sony panel degradation issue and learned that it was not definitively proven as a common issue with the HW45ES. I wanted the best native contrast and black levels of any projector <$2,000 and every test review proved that was the HW45ES. I decided it was worth a small risk to get the best native contrast and black levels because there are risks with every projector.

My HW45ES has performed flawlessly and given me a great home theater experience so I made the right choice for myself. For others considering the HW45ES I would recommend doing your own research and not being frightened off by alarmists who go from thread to thread warning that there is something wrong with every projector.
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post #78 of 85 Old 08-15-2018, 08:29 AM
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That was after the movie.



I spent a lot of time researching the Sony panel degradation issue and learned that it was not definitively proven as a common issue with the HW45ES. I wanted the best native contrast and black levels of any projector <$2,000 and every test review proved that was the HW45ES. I decided it was worth a small risk to get the best native contrast and black levels because there are risks with every projector.

My HW45ES has performed flawlessly and given me a great home theater experience so I made the right choice for myself. For others considering the HW45ES I would recommend doing your own research and not being frightened off by alarmists who go from thread to thread warning that there is something wrong with every projector.
Similar experience here. I researched the panel degradation and found nothing that was proven. I have a 40ES with 5000 hours on it and have not noticed any degradation. It still looks stellar and has been rock solid since day one..
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post #79 of 85 Old 08-15-2018, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
I own a JVC and a DLP (side by side), and have for years.
I have had both projectors in 5 different rooms over the years (I move a lot).

If the entire room is bright white, yes that does put a big hit on the contrast, but the JVC will still have the darker blacks.
The room color by itself is not enough to kill off ALL the difference (not between a DLP and a JVC), maybe between a JVC and Epson (since they are closer).

So would it still be worth it for Sci Fi or dark movies to own a JVC over a DLP in an all white room?
I would say Yes, but it partly depends on just how bad the room is and how close the side walls are.
A very large room with all white walls is totally different than a small room with white walls.

The black levels of most DLP's are just so bright that they keep the entire room more lit up. The reason the JVC still appears darker with white walls is because
the entire room gets darker from it emitting less light in dark scenes overall. How much 'better' the JVC looks in a bad room just depends on a lot of factors.

Now, if you add even just a tiny bit of ambient light, then the room will marginalize the difference much more.

The biggest killer of contrast (aside from ambient light) are the immediate side walls.
If the side walls are too close to the screen, that causes a big hit both perceptually and reflecting on the screen.

Next, is the carpet, then the ceiling, and the backwall is last.

If you can get the sidewalls and the carpet dark, then go from there.
This is what I read about the topic, most people experienced this way but with less room changes. Good post.

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That was after the movie.



I spent a lot of time researching the Sony panel degradation issue and learned that it was not definitively proven as a common issue with the HW45ES. I wanted the best native contrast and black levels of any projector <$2,000 and every test review proved that was the HW45ES. I decided it was worth a small risk to get the best native contrast and black levels because there are risks with every projector.

My HW45ES has performed flawlessly and given me a great home theater experience so I made the right choice for myself. For others considering the HW45ES I would recommend doing your own research and not being frightened off by alarmists who go from thread to thread warning that there is something wrong with every projector.
Too much reading is also bad, you can read bad things about basically everything and you end up buying nothing

This thread will change rapidly if the upcoming projectors will deliver. Maybe Sony themselves will announce a sub 3000 euros 4k projector (not gonna happen )
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post #80 of 85 Old 08-15-2018, 12:51 PM
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… Too much reading is also bad, you can read bad things about basically everything and you end up buying nothing ...
Extensive research is only bad if you allow it to turn into paralysis by analysis. The first thing you have to do before getting started on analysis is to acknowledge that nothing is perfect (including projectors) and each has a different balance of pros and cons. The second thing is to understand yourself well enough to know which pros are most important to you and which cons you can most easily live with. From there it's a matter of finding the imperfect projector with the best balance of positives and negatives to suit your individual preferences. If you can't make a decision after all that then you are officially a professional procrastinator.
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post #81 of 85 Old 08-15-2018, 01:08 PM
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Extensive research is only bad if you allow it to turn into paralysis by analysis. The first thing you have to do before getting started on analysis is to acknowledge that nothing is perfect (including projectors) and each has a different balance of pros and cons. The second thing is to understand yourself well enough to know which pros are most important to you and which cons you can most easily live with. From there it's a matter of finding the imperfect projector with the best balance of positives and negatives to suit your individual preferences. If you can't make a decision after all that then you are officially a professional procrastinator.
I was just joking Obviously the way to go to decide which compromises we are willing to take. In this case, great 1080p projector or entry "4k" HDR, not an easy call. Hopefully OP will come back after IFA/CEDIA but probably he will still not sure about the choice
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post #82 of 85 Old 08-15-2018, 05:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by fatallerror View Post
Try the Epson in a let's say medium grey wall (screen wall area black) in pitch black room and then in the same room the JVC, JVC still should give better contrast, not its best contrast performance of course, nobody said that.
Just saying that the JVC should give slightly better contrast when both projectors are affected by surrounding bright walls doesn't conclude anything, you could bring in another projector that is BRIGHTER than both and conclude that it has better contrast than both even though it has WORST black levels. That's why what you're saying doesn't make any sense. The JVC's strength is in a pitch black room so you can see better color levels (in particular black because it is the hardest to produce for projectors) and thus better contrast. The best JVCs are only 1800,2000 and 3000 lumens, they're not the brightest projectors around but they don't need to reproduce high quality black and contrast levels. I've seen $9k and $18k projectors all in the same room, which is a problem when there's lighting coming from different projectors and it looks terrible.
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post #83 of 85 Old 08-15-2018, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by rocklee View Post
Just saying that the JVC should give slightly better contrast when both projectors are affected by surrounding bright walls doesn't conclude anything, you could bring in another projector that is BRIGHTER than both and conclude that it has better contrast than both even though it has WORST black levels. That's why what you're saying doesn't make any sense. The JVC's strength is in a pitch black room so you can see better color levels (in particular black because it is the hardest to produce for projectors) and thus better contrast. The best JVCs are only 1800,2000 and 3000 lumens, they're not the brightest projectors around but they don't need to reproduce high quality black and contrast levels. I've seen $9k and $18k projectors all in the same room, which is a problem when there's lighting coming from different projectors and it looks terrible.
Just realized what you are talking about, if the brightness difference is big enough then you are right.
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post #84 of 85 Old 08-26-2018, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
Here, replace “45ES” with literally anything else and read it back to see what I mean. For example:
“Its a pity that there isnt a new model "xyz" with the same specs and quality as the Porsche, but cheaper and more compact.”
I was thinking in terms of other areas of technology such as computers. We would expect a current model PC to be cheaper than or have better specs than a 3 year old PC.

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“Its a pity that there isnt a new model "xyz" with the same specs and quality as the PS4, but cheaper and more compact.”
A good example. The PS4 had better specs than the PS3 when it was released, yet had a price similar to the PS3 release price.
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post #85 of 85 Old 05-23-2020, 03:48 PM
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Please help me choosing Sony Hw45es and BENQ HT3550. I am really confused because I found both with similar price and warranty. 1050 USD . Hw45es is 1080p and ht3550 is 4k. But i heard sony at 1080p is better than most 4k.
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