Epson Announces Home Cinema 4010 4K Pro-UHD Projector - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 478 Old 09-19-2018, 05:41 AM
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Okay, so I'm in week two of a 30 day return period at Best Buy with the 4000, do I return it for the 4010??? The difference is only a few hundred bucks?
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post #32 of 478 Old 09-19-2018, 05:45 AM
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Still does 4k with lens shift ?..

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post #33 of 478 Old 09-19-2018, 05:50 AM
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Still does 4k with lens shift ?..
Still does enhanced HD with lens shift.
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post #34 of 478 Old 09-19-2018, 06:16 AM
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Still does enhanced HD with lens shift.
Thanks , now it's enhanced HD instead 4k I wonder what adjective they would use when 8k comes around.

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post #35 of 478 Old 09-19-2018, 06:54 AM
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Thanks , now it's enhanced HD instead 4k I wonder what adjective they would use when 8k comes around.
Well, Epson calls it '4k enhancement' but when you read the description (to Epson's credit) they explain that it is actually 1080p x 2. For the record, 1080p x 2 is 4.15 million pixels. 4K/UHD is 8.3 million pixels. I don't know how anyone would consider this 4K in any way, shape or form. It is not as sharp as native 4K and it is not as sharp as pixel shifted DLP (which does produce 8.3 million pixels). It's sharper than 1080p, however, and the Epson has many advantages over it's immediate competition in the form of that trick lens and a dynamic iris.
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post #36 of 478 Old 09-19-2018, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shasta View Post
Okay, so I'm in week two of a 30 day return period at Best Buy with the 4000, do I return it for the 4010??? The difference is only a few hundred bucks?
I'm sitting on a 4000 I just bought from BB too and I'm not sure if I should get the 4010. I got the 4000 on sale for $1600 and I can get the 4010 for $1800; so only $200 more.

I wish we could get more info on what's really new and "better" on the 4010 vs the 4000...

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post #37 of 478 Old 09-19-2018, 07:38 AM
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Epson Announces Home Cinema 4010 4K Pro-UHD Projector

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Originally Posted by DavidinGA View Post
I'm sitting on a 4000 I just bought from BB too and I'm not sure if I should get the 4010. I got the 4000 on sale for $1600 and I can get the 4010 for $1800; so only $200 more.

I wish we could get more info on what's really new and "better" on the 4010 vs the 4000...
Supposedly a sharper picture thanks to improved (faster) pixel shifting and higher quality lens assembly. Possibly better color reproduction and more coverage of DCI-P3. While the manufacturer contrast claim is an outright lie it IS higher than the old claim so there may be some improvement here which I could buy if the lens is improved.

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post #38 of 478 Old 09-19-2018, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
Supposedly a sharper picture thanks to improved (faster) pixel shifting and higher quality lens assembly. Possibly better color reproduction and more coverage of DCI-P3. While the manufacturer contrast claim is an outright lie it IS higher than the old claim so their may be some improvement there which I could see if the lens is improved.
The lens assembly is different? I hadn't heard that...


Given the head to head review of the 4000 vs the 5040 shows only a very modest improvement of contrast on the 5040, it's probably highly unlikely any substantial improvement will be found for the 4010...right? We're probably splitting hairs at this point would be my guess.


4000 vs 5040 Review reference: https://www.projectorcentral.com/eps...-vs-5040ub.htm
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post #39 of 478 Old 09-19-2018, 07:53 AM
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Well, Epson calls it '4k enhancement' but when you read the description (to Epson's credit) they explain that it is actually 1080p x 2. For the record, 1080p x 2 is 4.15 million pixels. 4K/UHD is 8.3 million pixels. I don't know how anyone would consider this 4K in any way, shape or form. It is not as sharp as native 4K and it is not as sharp as pixel shifted DLP (which does produce 8.3 million pixels). It's sharper than 1080p, however, and the Epson has many advantages over it's immediate competition in the form of that trick lens and a dynamic iris.
Hmm, I didn't know all of that but you've suddenly made me not want to buy this anymore.

I have an Epson 5010 which I bought in 2011 and it has served me very, very well for all my 1080p & 3D needs for almost 8 years now. But it's time to upgrade. My TVs, HTPC, Disc Player & Console have all updated to 4K UHD HDR. The Epson 5010 is my last holdout.

Most folks I spoke to told me that pixel-shift/4k-enhancement is just about as good as the real thing, but these were high-level discussions, not talk about what you just stated about the number of pixels, etc. I'm not sure now if I want to make the investment for 4.15 million pixels, as opposed to 8.3 million pixels. My initial budget was $3K - $4k. If I absolutely cannot get native 4K in that budget, I'd rather hang on tight just a few more to up the budget, rather then settle with half the pixels.

Unless someone can suggest otherwise.

Thanks.

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post #40 of 478 Old 09-19-2018, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mickey79 View Post
Hmm, I didn't know all of that but you've suddenly made me not want to buy this anymore.

I have an Epson 5010 which I bought in 2011 and it has served me very, very well for all my 1080p & 3D needs for almost 8 years now. But it's time to upgrade. My TVs, HTPC, Disc Player & Console have all updated to 4K UHD HDR. The Epson 5010 is my last holdout.

Most folks I spoke to told me that pixel-shift/4k-enhancement is just about as good as the real thing, but these were high-level discussions, not talk about what you just stated about the number of pixels, etc. I'm not sure now if I want to make the investment for 4.15 million pixels, as opposed to 8.3 million pixels. My initial budget was $3K - $4k. If I absolutely cannot get native 4K in that budget, I'd rather hang on tight just a few more to up the budget, rather then settle with half the pixels.

Unless someone can suggest otherwise.

Thanks.

Bear in mind that at this price point you'll have to compromise somewhere to get "most" of what you want. If 4k detail is what you really want, you can compromise on some other points and definitely pick up a sharper pj than what the Epson will give you for the same cost, but it still won't be a true native 4k image.

You'll need to step up to around the $5k level to get a true native 4k pj.
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post #41 of 478 Old 09-19-2018, 08:29 AM
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The lens assembly is different? I hadn't heard that...


Given the head to head review of the 4000 vs the 5040 shows only a very modest improvement of contrast on the 5040, it's probably highly unlikely any substantial improvement will be found for the 4010...right? We're probably splitting hairs at this point would be my guess.


4000 vs 5040 Review reference: https://www.projectorcentral.com/eps...-vs-5040ub.htm
Epson is advertising a brand new 15 element all-glass lens assembly for the 4010 and 4050. Someone correct me here but I don't believe the 4000/4040 had an all-glass lens system.


Yeah I don't know about that. I get what Powell is saying about room conditions and whatnot and he had them both in the same place at the same time so he would know... but almost everyone else agrees the 5040ub is a substantial upgrade over the 4000 in contrast.

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post #42 of 478 Old 09-19-2018, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mickey79 View Post
Hmm, I didn't know all of that but you've suddenly made me not want to buy this anymore.

I have an Epson 5010 which I bought in 2011 and it has served me very, very well for all my 1080p & 3D needs for almost 8 years now. But it's time to upgrade. My TVs, HTPC, Disc Player & Console have all updated to 4K UHD HDR. The Epson 5010 is my last holdout.

Most folks I spoke to told me that pixel-shift/4k-enhancement is just about as good as the real thing, but these were high-level discussions, not talk about what you just stated about the number of pixels, etc. I'm not sure now if I want to make the investment for 4.15 million pixels, as opposed to 8.3 million pixels. My initial budget was $3K - $4k. If I absolutely cannot get native 4K in that budget, I'd rather hang on tight just a few more to up the budget, rather then settle with half the pixels.

Unless someone can suggest otherwise.

Thanks.

On projectors there are three 'levels' of resolution beyond HD. To make a long story short...


LCoS (Sony SXRD / JVC DILA) native 4K. Native 8.3 million pixel displays. The sharpest and also the most expensive. Prices start at $5k and head north (quickly) from there.


DLP 'True 4K'. Uses pixel shifting to double or quadruple the DMD's native resolution to 8.3 million pixels on the screen. While not as sharp as native it is considered the next closest thing. Prices start at around $1100 and head north (not so quickly) from there.


'4K Enhancement' (Epson) or 'E-shift' (JVC). This is now almost exclusive to Epson as JVC has discontinued all of their E-shift projectors save one-- the X790. This takes a native 1080p projector and doubles the resolution to 4.15 million pixels. It's often labeled 4K-- it's not 4K. That said, Epson and JVC have compensated by offering advanced features and performance that similarly priced DLP and LCoS projectors typically don't offer. So, as @DavidinGA points out: it's a tradeoff. Prices range from $1600 to $4000.

What to do if you find yourself stuck with no hope of rescue:
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post #43 of 478 Old 09-19-2018, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
On projectors there are three 'levels' of resolution beyond HD. To make a long story short...


LCoS (Sony SXRD / JVC DILA) native 4K. Native 8.3 million pixel displays. The sharpest and also the most expensive. Prices start at $5k and head north (quickly) from there.


DLP 'True 4K'. Uses pixel shifting to double or quadruple the DMD's native resolution to 8.3 million pixels on the screen. While not as sharp as native it is considered the next closest thing. Prices start at around $1100 and head north (not so quickly) from there.


'4K Enhancement' (Epson) or 'E-shift' (JVC). This is now almost exclusive to Epson as JVC has discontinued all of their E-shift projectors save one-- the X790. This takes a native 1080p projector and doubles the resolution to 4.15 million pixels. It's often labeled 4K-- it's not 4K. That said, Epson and JVC have compensated by offering advanced features and performance that similarly priced DLP and LCoS projectors typically don't offer. So, as @DavidinGA points out: it's a tradeoff. Prices range from $1600 to $4000.
Thank you so much for taking the time to make this very informative post! This is definitely helpful to me in understanding the differences.

The middle-child you listed, DLP 'True 4K', has peaked my interest. I've very comfortable spending $2.5k - $3K, so I'd like to find out what's a good choice if I did take the DLP True 4K route? But ultimately the question that would come down to is this:

I don't believe I will be spending upwards of $5K on the projector, so the native 4K would probably be out.

i. You mentioned "Epson and JVC have compensated by offering advanced features and performance" - I'm interested in finding out what are these features & performance? Essentially, the main thing that it comes down to (for me at least), is Picture Quality - especially UHD HDR. Do these advanced features & performance somehow impact PQ in a way that choosing the 4K enhancement pixel shift projector equates to the DLP True 4K?

ii. This could be asked conversely - what am I losing in terms of PQ & overall Projector performance when picking a DLP True 4K, as opposed Pixel Shift?

I'm not at all concerned with the Projector aesthetics or even something like Memory. I would definitely prefer Power Zoom/Focus cause I really hated working those wheels on top of my Epson 5010, but I can't say they would influence my decision if PQ is outstanding. I do require a 150" screen which I'm able to get with my Epson 5010 right now, placed about 18 ft from the screen. That's' exactly where the upgrade would sit. They would simply swap places, so I don't need anything different in terms of screen size or throw distance then what I have now.

The Epson 4010 sounded pretty good to me until you disclosed the pixel difference. I don't feel like I'm getting 4K, which is the whole point of the upgrade.

Thanks!

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Quote:
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Okay, so I'm in week two of a 30 day return period at Best Buy with the 4000, do I return it for the 4010??? The difference is only a few hundred bucks?
It's unlikely that there will be a thorough professional review of the 4010/4050 in the next week or two so you may be stuck with trying to guess how accurate Epson's claims are for improvements. Additionally, some who saw the 4050 at CEDIA seemed to think there was a visible improvement in performance, which would carry over to the identical performing 4010.
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post #45 of 478 Old 09-19-2018, 10:29 AM
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Also Best Buy has a restocking fee on projectors, so that may factor into your decision.

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Subject related question: Epson 4010 verses Optoma UHD51A or UHD51ALV (or any other model from Optoma that would be closer to this Epson)

Wow a lot discussed here, I love it! so with everything said should I consider the optoma uhd51a, price point set aside how would you compare Optoma DLP tech to Epson 3lcd tech... as far as using both for "4k" content and "HDR", I imagine they each have their high and low points but would love a break down between the two. As mentioned Im guessing the fake 4k on the Optoma will be better than the fake 4k on the epson? but the colors will be brighter on the Epson?

Im just looking for picture to picture comparison, not features like power lens and non-powered lens... just which of the two will offer the better picture respectively and the give and takes of both in that area.

Also what about this UHD51ALV version, it appears to just have higher lumens...

Thanks guys for your input and knowledge. I really appreciate it.
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post #47 of 478 Old 09-19-2018, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
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It's unlikely that there will be a thorough professional review of the 4010/4050 in the next week or two so you may be stuck with trying to guess how accurate Epson's claims are for improvements. Additionally, some who saw the 4050 at CEDIA seemed to think there was a visible improvement in performance, which would carry over to the identical performing 4010.

Very true, it's going to be difficult to determine if the difference is worth the extra $400 bucks. I may have to flip a coin on this one.
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I would honestly buy the 4050, mainly because of the longer warranty. Having read so many reviews about the power issues on the 5040 I’d be afraid it breaks down just after the warranty has expired. At least you have a little bit more security. I think I’ll wait for some reviews to be out and the price to drop a bit before pulling the trigger.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidinGA View Post
I'm sitting on a 4000 I just bought from BB too and I'm not sure if I should get the 4010. I got the 4000 on sale for $1600 and I can get the 4010 for $1800; so only $200 more.

I wish we could get more info on what's really new and "better" on the 4010 vs the 4000...
DavidinGA~

Where are you finding the 4010 for $1800? Thanks!
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post #50 of 478 Old 09-19-2018, 01:45 PM
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Epson Announces Home Cinema 4010 4K Pro-UHD Projector

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Originally Posted by mickey79 View Post
Thank you so much for taking the time to make this very informative post! This is definitely helpful to me in understanding the differences.



The middle-child you listed, DLP 'True 4K', has peaked my interest. I've very comfortable spending $2.5k - $3K, so I'd like to find out what's a good choice if I did take the DLP True 4K route? But ultimately the question that would come down to is this:



I don't believe I will be spending upwards of $5K on the projector, so the native 4K would probably be out.



i. You mentioned "Epson and JVC have compensated by offering advanced features and performance" - I'm interested in finding out what are these features & performance? Essentially, the main thing that it comes down to (for me at least), is Picture Quality - especially UHD HDR. Do these advanced features & performance somehow impact PQ in a way that choosing the 4K enhancement pixel shift projector equates to the DLP True 4K?



ii. This could be asked conversely - what am I losing in terms of PQ & overall Projector performance when picking a DLP True 4K, as opposed Pixel Shift?



I'm not at all concerned with the Projector aesthetics or even something like Memory. I would definitely prefer Power Zoom/Focus cause I really hated working those wheels on top of my Epson 5010, but I can't say they would influence my decision if PQ is outstanding. I do require a 150" screen which I'm able to get with my Epson 5010 right now, placed about 18 ft from the screen. That's' exactly where the upgrade would sit. They would simply swap places, so I don't need anything different in terms of screen size or throw distance then what I have now.



The Epson 4010 sounded pretty good to me until you disclosed the pixel difference. I don't feel like I'm getting 4K, which is the whole point of the upgrade.



Thanks!


The best example I can use is the comparison between the Epson 4000 and the Optoma UHD60. Both are about the same price and both are targeted at the same general market. They have comparable chassis sizes, comparable contrast (depending on who you talk to and what they’re watching one might come out in front of the other) and both have enough lumens to compete with some ambient light. The Optoma is a 4K DLP that uses pixel shifting to double its 4 million pixels to 8 million pixels. The Epson is a 3LCD that uses pixel shifting to double it’s 2 million pixels to 4.

On paper then, it would seem the Optoma has the advantage being it’s twice the resolution. But look down the feature list and the Epson starts to look more enticing. For starters, the Epson has generous zoom and lens shift. Never mind the Epson’s lens is also motorized with memory! The Optoma has a small amount of zoom, no horizontal lens shift and all of 15% it’s image height for vertical lens shift. This is common for DLPs as few offer significant placement flexibility. Also common for DLPs is for them not to include CFI— a feature every Epson starting around $700 and up includes.

So that’s features. Let’s talk about contrast. Most projectors under the $3k threshold are not considered ‘ultra high contrast’ models. The exceptions are the 1080p only Sony 45ES and the 1080p x2 Epson 5040ub. Your price range is kind of tough. You’ve got enough of a budget that you can afford something nicer than the entry level 4K models but not nearly enough to spring for the high end native 4K models. The Epson 5040ub is essentially a high contrast version of the 4000. It won’t be any sharper, however. Above the Epson you have the JVC DILA E shift models. The JVCs use a similar pixel shift as the Epsons (doubling their native 1080p panels) although they are generally considered sharper than the Epsons due to the underlying tech. Prices start around $4000 but sales can bring them close to 3. JVC DILA projectors have significantly higher contrast than any DLP or 3LCD on the market. While they are not 4K, many enthusiasts don’t want to give up the superior contrast/blacks of their JVC just to get a higher resolution projector.

What to do if you find yourself stuck with no hope of rescue:
Consider yourself lucky that life has been good to you so far. Alternatively, if life hasn't been good to you so far, which given your present circumstances seems to be more likely, consider yourself lucky that it won't be troubling you much longer...

-- Excerpt from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

Last edited by sage11x; 09-19-2018 at 01:50 PM.
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post #51 of 478 Old 09-19-2018, 01:50 PM
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Subject related question: Epson 4010 verses Optoma UHD51A or UHD51ALV (or any other model from Optoma that would be closer to this Epson)

Wow a lot discussed here, I love it! so with everything said should I consider the optoma uhd51a, price point set aside how would you compare Optoma DLP tech to Epson 3lcd tech... as far as using both for "4k" content and "HDR", I imagine they each have their high and low points but would love a break down between the two. As mentioned Im guessing the fake 4k on the Optoma will be better than the fake 4k on the epson? but the colors will be brighter on the Epson?

Im just looking for picture to picture comparison, not features like power lens and non-powered lens... just which of the two will offer the better picture respectively and the give and takes of both in that area.

Also what about this UHD51ALV version, it appears to just have higher lumens...
I am working on this decision too. I am leaning toward a UHD65 myself as that I wont game at all. It doesn't sound like the 4010 will be a better option that the 65/51 ... on paper anyway. I am not vastly knowledgeable in the area though... this is my first rodeo!
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post #52 of 478 Old 09-19-2018, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Daniel Chaves View Post
Subject related question: Epson 4010 verses Optoma UHD51A or UHD51ALV (or any other model from Optoma that would be closer to this Epson)



Wow a lot discussed here, I love it! so with everything said should I consider the optoma uhd51a, price point set aside how would you compare Optoma DLP tech to Epson 3lcd tech... as far as using both for "4k" content and "HDR", I imagine they each have their high and low points but would love a break down between the two. As mentioned Im guessing the fake 4k on the Optoma will be better than the fake 4k on the epson? but the colors will be brighter on the Epson?



Im just looking for picture to picture comparison, not features like power lens and non-powered lens... just which of the two will offer the better picture respectively and the give and takes of both in that area.



Also what about this UHD51ALV version, it appears to just have higher lumens...



Thanks guys for your input and knowledge. I really appreciate it.


I had never heard of the uhd51alv model until now. I guess the only advantage the 4010 has is that I don’t have to get up to adjust the zoom.


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post #53 of 478 Old 09-19-2018, 06:24 PM
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Where are you finding the 4010 for $1800? Thanks!
$2k at best buy and I have a 10% off coupon ~ $1800

You can buy them off eBay if you don't have one. I got mine in a US postal service movers packet.


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post #54 of 478 Old 09-19-2018, 08:55 PM
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The Epson Home Cinema 4010 4K Pro-UHD projector ($2000) is a new offering from Epson that possesses the same image processing and pixel shifting technology as the recently announced Pro Cinema 4050. It achieves DCI/P3 gamut, supports HDR, outputs 2400 lumens, can achieve 200,000:1 contrast, and has a 15-element motorized glass lens with wide adjustability.

According to Epson, this projector delivers 100% of the DCI/P3 color gamut. What's more, the lens offers "powered focus, 2.1x zoom, up to ± 96% horizontal and up to ± 47% vertical lens shift, and 10 preset positions." Image processing is performed in 12 bits and this projector's final output is 10-bit video (for proper HDR support).

Read more here: https://www.avsforum.com/epson-annou...uhd-projector/


The Epson Home Cinema 4010 4K Pro-UHD projector ($2000)
Another 1080P pixel doubler that throws away half the information in a 4k source. Sigh.

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I just looked at the coupon in the fine print it says it excludes HT projectors.
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post #56 of 478 Old 09-19-2018, 11:25 PM
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Most folks I spoke to told me that pixel-shift/4k-enhancement is just about as good as the real thing, but these were high-level discussions, not talk about what you just stated about the number of pixels, etc. I'm not sure now if I want to make the investment for 4.15 million pixels, as opposed to 8.3 million pixels. My initial budget was $3K - $4k. If I absolutely cannot get native 4K in that budget, I'd rather hang on tight just a few more to up the budget, rather then settle with half the pixels.

Unless someone can suggest otherwise.

Thanks.
There are several native 4K options from Optoma well under your budget. Check out the UHD65
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post #57 of 478 Old 09-20-2018, 03:39 AM
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I just looked at the coupon in the fine print it says it excludes HT projectors.
Really? Sigh...

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post #58 of 478 Old 09-20-2018, 06:34 AM
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It's unlikely that there will be a thorough professional review of the 4010/4050 in the next week or two so you may be stuck with trying to guess how accurate Epson's claims are for improvements. Additionally, some who saw the 4050 at CEDIA seemed to think there was a visible improvement in performance, which would carry over to the identical performing 4010.
I saw the 4050 at the conference and it looked damn good. The 5050, with presumably the added 18gb chipset, might very well be a blockbuster, depending on what they price it at, when they release it and what other added features it has. I definitely don't see the 5050 being true 4k given what they can now accomplish with e-shifting but we shall see. I'm ready to purchase now though so I'm leaning Sony or possibly JVC, but I hate to squander any more than necessary and appreciate the value Epson brings to the table. But come on Epson, it's past time to bring it. Quit teasing us with these crippled models and give us something with a more complete package.
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post #59 of 478 Old 09-20-2018, 07:58 AM
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Bang for the Buck???

I understand that some of you are upset with Epson for not offering the 18gb chipset on this projector and you wont consider it simply because of that but for a lot of people, myself included, I think the 4010 hits a sweet spot. I currently have a Sony VPL-HW40ES thrown on a 135" screen in our basement and have never been totally satisfied with it's performance in ambient light viewing. The room can be totally light controlled but only about 50% of the time, is it totally dark when we are viewing something. Now, when the room is totally dark, the picture from the Sony is amazing. However, with more and more 4k material hitting the market every day, I am wanting to upgrade.

My primary uses for the basement viewing area are:
-Watching sports on Directv. I have their 4K service on a 65" Samsung upstairs and its incredible. I want to be able to view 4K downstairs as well.
-Watching movies via our 4K Apple TV. Again, watching them in 4k on the Samsung is great, but I want that experience downstairs.

I will never do any type of console or computer gaming on this projector. I dont know a ton about the 18gm chipset but I believe the primary reason for needing the better chipset is to game at 4K in 60fps, which I will never do.

I guess I am getting at this point. This will be my 3rd projector and I upgrade about every 3 years. For me, I just cant see spending $5,000 on a Sony to get True4K, when I can spend $2,000 on the 4010 and then upgrade again down the road in 3-4 years. Again, I know I will be sacrificing some picture quality details at this price point, but for a guy who just wants to watch football (with the lights on) and the occasional movie (in a light controlled setting) I think the 4010 is the best bang for the buck out there currently.

The 4010 is going to offer a higher lumen output then my current Sony and the ability to watch 4k source material. I understand that this isn't true 4k, but its also 60% less expensive while achieving an "almost" true 4k image.

Thoughts???
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post #60 of 478 Old 09-20-2018, 08:08 AM
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Epson is advertising a brand new 15 element all-glass lens assembly for the 4010 and 4050. Someone correct me here but I don't believe the 4000/4040 had an all-glass lens system.
Quote:
3-Axis Precision Motorized E-Series Lens — state-of-the-art glass elements optimized for 4K content; with powered focus, 2.1x zoom, up to ± 96% horizontal and up to ± 47% vertical lens shift, and 10 preset positions
https://epson.com/For-Home/Projector...R/p/V11H715120

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