Epson Announces Home Cinema 4010 4K Pro-UHD Projector - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 478 Old 09-20-2018, 08:55 AM
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Yeah, for some reason I was thinking the 4010 will have the same lens assembly... What they're doing is an internal upgrade to the electronics and leaving everything else untouched.
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post #62 of 478 Old 09-20-2018, 08:57 AM
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Epson Announces Home Cinema 4010 4K Pro-UHD Projector



This doesn’t actually answer my question.

Again, Epson is making hay about an all-glass 15 element lens assembly on the 4010. While most every projector has ‘glass elements’ not all of them can claim to be ‘all glass’. My question is: is this new or did the 4000 have this before and Epson just didn’t advertise it? Nowhere in any of the material for the 4000 does it specify an all glass lens system. Combine this with the prominence of the lens in the 4010’s marketing and I have to assume this is an improvement over the old model.


https://news.epson.com/news/New-Home...-UHD-Projector

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post #63 of 478 Old 09-20-2018, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MGHuskers1 View Post
I understand that some of you are upset with Epson for not offering the 18gb chipset on this projector and you wont consider it simply because of that but for a lot of people, myself included, I think the 4010 hits a sweet spot. I currently have a Sony VPL-HW40ES thrown on a 135" screen in our basement and have never been totally satisfied with it's performance in ambient light viewing. The room can be totally light controlled but only about 50% of the time, is it totally dark when we are viewing something. Now, when the room is totally dark, the picture from the Sony is amazing. However, with more and more 4k material hitting the market every day, I am wanting to upgrade.

My primary uses for the basement viewing area are:
-Watching sports on Directv. I have their 4K service on a 65" Samsung upstairs and its incredible. I want to be able to view 4K downstairs as well.
-Watching movies via our 4K Apple TV. Again, watching them in 4k on the Samsung is great, but I want that experience downstairs.

I will never do any type of console or computer gaming on this projector. I dont know a ton about the 18gm chipset but I believe the primary reason for needing the better chipset is to game at 4K in 60fps, which I will never do.

I guess I am getting at this point. This will be my 3rd projector and I upgrade about every 3 years. For me, I just cant see spending $5,000 on a Sony to get True4K, when I can spend $2,000 on the 4010 and then upgrade again down the road in 3-4 years. Again, I know I will be sacrificing some picture quality details at this price point, but for a guy who just wants to watch football (with the lights on) and the occasional movie (in a light controlled setting) I think the 4010 is the best bang for the buck out there currently.

The 4010 is going to offer a higher lumen output then my current Sony and the ability to watch 4k source material. I understand that this isn't true 4k, but its also 60% less expensive while achieving an "almost" true 4k image.

Thoughts???
While I'm more interested in only watching movies with zero ambient light, I'm right there with you on the 4000/4010 be an outstanding bang-for-the-buck pj.

I also agree and would rather upgrade every 2-3 years as technology improves versus buying in deep ($5k+) when a lot of the platforms are still in there infancy (4k for example).
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post #64 of 478 Old 09-20-2018, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
This doesn’t actually answer my question.

Again, Epson is making hay about an all-glass 15 element lens assembly on the 4010. While most every projector has ‘glass elements’ not all of them can claim to be ‘all glass’. My question is: is this new or did the 4000 have this before and Epson just didn’t advertise it? Nowhere in any of the material for the 4000 does it specify an all glass lens system. Combine this with the prominence of the lens in the 4010’s marketing and I have to assume this is an improvement over the old model.
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Second, the HC 4000 has a more substantial all-glass 16-element zoom lens. This lens was designed for Epson's more expensive home theater projectors, but is being used on the HC 4000 as well.
https://www.projectorcentral.com/eps...d60-review.htm

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post #65 of 478 Old 09-20-2018, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
This doesn’t actually answer my question.

Again, Epson is making hay about an all-glass 15 element lens assembly on the 4010. While most every projector has ‘glass elements’ not all of them can claim to be ‘all glass’. My question is: is this new or did the 4000 have this before and Epson just didn’t advertise it? Nowhere in any of the material for the 4000 does it specify an all glass lens system. Combine this with the prominence of the lens in the 4010’s marketing and I have to assume this is an improvement over the old model.


https://news.epson.com/news/New-Home...-UHD-Projector

I've also seen lots of references to an all-glass lens in the 4000 model. Most say the same thing in reference to the 5040ub, that both the 5040 and 4000 use the same all-glass lens assembly.

My guess is the 4010 will also have the same lens as the 5040 and 4000 have. No reason for Epson to increase the cost of production for a part of the pj that is already very high quality.
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post #66 of 478 Old 09-20-2018, 09:43 AM
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I'm mainly interested in the new tone-mapping algorithm for HDR. I wonder if this is something totally new or the HDR firmware upgrade from the 4000.
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post #67 of 478 Old 09-20-2018, 10:32 AM
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On the lens description, it sounds like a simple change of marketing wording from that used on the current 4000/4040/5040/6040 models:

Quote:
state-of-the-art glass elements optimized for 4K content
In fact when the above models were introduced in 2016 it was widely reported that they all had all-glass lenses.
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post #68 of 478 Old 09-20-2018, 10:38 AM
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So apparently it IS different... they went from a 16 element lens system to a 15 element lens system!
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post #69 of 478 Old 09-20-2018, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
So apparently it IS different... they went from a 16 element lens system to a 15 element lens system!
It's possible. It's also possible they simply revised how they count elements. Marketers can't resist using the word "new" whenever possible, yet nowhere does it use the word new to describe the lens on the new models. So I would still consider it to be an open question until confirmed by Epson.
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post #70 of 478 Old 09-20-2018, 12:54 PM
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i just purchased one from amazon that will arrive saturday, so I will let you know my thoughts once i have it up and running. i could have waited for cheaper but i have 0 patience even 2 days is alot for me
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post #71 of 478 Old 09-20-2018, 03:57 PM
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Epson Announces Home Cinema 4010 4K Pro-UHD Projector

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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
It's possible. It's also possible they simply revised how they count elements. Marketers can't resist using the word "new" whenever possible, yet nowhere does it use the word new to describe the lens on the new models. So I would still consider it to be an open question until confirmed by Epson.


I was being sarcastic. I’m quite sure the “16 element” quote is a misnomer. I think @Mr.G may be right: it might be the same lens and Epson is just choosing to draw attention to it now.
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post #72 of 478 Old 09-20-2018, 04:10 PM
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I noticed one other person stating they had seen the new 4050 at CEDIA, who said that it looked "damn good" at the conference. I was at CEDIA as well, and I can also say that the new 4050 (which is a black 4010 with more goodies in the box) had a really nice image.

The primary reason I spent the money to fly to California and go to CEDIA was just to see the new JVC NX-5 and Sony 295 4K projectors. I went to decide which one I wanted to buy, but I sort of had my mind pre-made on the JVC. Each looked great, but then after attending the Epson demo for AVS, I was even more unsure than before I left Houston. Some in this thread seem to be basing their opinion of the 4010/4050 on speculation of what they think it might be, that it's just a refreshed 4000/4040 or otherwise. I don't know for sure about the lens, but they did tell us there that the new 4050 is using three completely new processors that handle the video processing and pixel shifting differently than previous models. That was evident to me, as well as many others, who thought that it looked great. We saw scenes from Infinity War, and there was no posterization in the image. I just saw the movie again at a friend's house and his projector was doing it a lot in those same scenes. (There were some AVS'ers at CEDIA who didn't like it too much because it still didn't quite have the contrast and inky blacks of the higher end JVCs, but overall, it was solid, especially for the price.) I know one can argue that contrast is the most important aspect of image quality, but my main concern is resolution, being that my screen size/viewing distance ratio will be larger than most. I went back and forth between booths many times, looking at the new JVC and Epson models, and the resolution, clarity, and colors of the new 4050 were just as good as that from the JVC NX-5...and I wanted a reason to like the JVC more. The JVC guys did say that the NX5 hadn't been thoroughly calibrated, they'd just done a minor one, due to time, so the colors and contrast might likely end up better, but from what I saw at CEDIA the 4050 gave the NX5 a solid run. (the Sony 295 looked great too, but Sony did that one in a separate 2hr demo, away from the trade floor, that I couldn't freely go check out again afterwards) Waiting for actual, thorough reviews of each to see what the production versions look like.

I still would like to get the JVC, but I'm certainly taking a hard look at the 4050 (and the upcoming 5050), to determine if the NX-5 is actually worth the extra $3500 over the Epson...it might not be, we'll see. That could go a long way toward other stuff for the room.

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post #73 of 478 Old 09-20-2018, 04:59 PM
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Epson Announces Home Cinema 4010 4K Pro-UHD Projector

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Originally Posted by deauxt View Post
I noticed one other person stating they had seen the new 4050 at CEDIA, who said that it looked "damn good" at the conference. I was at CEDIA as well, and I can also say that the new 4050 (which is a black 4010 with more goodies in the box) had a really nice image.

The primary reason I spent the money to fly to California and go to CEDIA was just to see the new JVC NX-5 and Sony 295 4K projectors. I went to decide which one I wanted to buy, but I sort of had my mind pre-made on the JVC. Each looked great, but then after attending the Epson demo for AVS, I was even more unsure than before I left Houston. Some in this thread seem to be basing their opinion of the 4010/4050 on speculation of what they think it might be, that it's just a refreshed 4000/4040 or otherwise. I don't know for sure about the lens, but they did tell us there that the new 4050 is using three completely new processors that handle the video processing and pixel shifting differently than previous models. That was evident to me, as well as many others, who thought that it looked great. We saw scenes from Infinity War, and there was no posterization in the image. I just saw the movie again at a friend's house and his projector was doing it a lot in those same scenes. (There were some AVS'ers at CEDIA who didn't like it too much because it still didn't quite have the contrast and inky blacks of the higher end JVCs, but overall, it was solid, especially for the price.) I know one can argue that contrast is the most important aspect of image quality, but my main concern is resolution, being that my screen size/viewing distance ratio will be larger than most. I went back and forth between booths many times, looking at the new JVC and Epson models, and the resolution, clarity, and colors of the new 4050 were just as good as that from the JVC NX-5...and I wanted a reason to like the JVC more. The JVC guys did say that the NX5 hadn't been thoroughly calibrated, they'd just done a minor one, due to time, so the colors and contrast might likely end up better, but from what I saw at CEDIA the 4050 gave the NX5 a solid run. (the Sony 295 looked great too, but Sony did that one in a separate 2hr demo, away from the trade floor, that I couldn't freely go check out again afterwards) Waiting for actual, thorough reviews of each to see what the production versions look like.

I still would like to get the JVC, but I'm certainly taking a hard look at the 4050 (and the upcoming 5050), to determine if the NX-5 is actually worth the extra $3500 over the Epson...it might not be, we'll see. That could go a long way toward other stuff for the room.


If you though the Epson looked sharp wouldn’t it make more sense to look at a JVC E-shift instead of one of their native models? The closer comparison to the 4010, besides whatever replaces the 5040ub, would be the JVC X790 which JVC has promised they’ll reduce in price to $4k. It will be the only remaining E-shift projector (1080p x 2) in their lineup and has a comparable feature set plus HDMI 2.0 and significantly better contrast. My guess is that model is about to become pretty popular at it’s new price.
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post #74 of 478 Old 09-20-2018, 05:31 PM
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If you are going to wait for the JVC at $4K might as well wait on the 5050 with HDMI 2.0 chipset. And if the Epson 9400 has 4K60 HDR and all the other bells and whistles good chance the 5050 will too for a lower price point than the JVC.

Will have to wait on reviews as there is too much speculation and not enough proof.

Got my 4000 back yesterday. Every projector I buy I have had to send back and the one I get back is always better than the original I bought. There was definitely something in the Lens on the old one as this has a much crisper picture. It was like the Focus setting had sharper setting, hard to explain. Jurassic World:FK looked outstanding in Digital Cinema after some slight tweaks to the red setting and gamma. Definitely a big step up from my backup HT3050. Gaming, Shadow of the Tombraider looks gorgeous and plays smoothly. Back to being happy again.

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post #75 of 478 Old 09-20-2018, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by MGHuskers1 View Post
I understand that some of you are upset with Epson for not offering the 18gb chipset on this projector and you wont consider it simply because of that but for a lot of people, myself included, I think the 4010 hits a sweet spot. I currently have a Sony VPL-HW40ES thrown on a 135" screen in our basement and have never been totally satisfied with it's performance in ambient light viewing. The room can be totally light controlled but only about 50% of the time, is it totally dark when we are viewing something. Now, when the room is totally dark, the picture from the Sony is amazing. However, with more and more 4k material hitting the market every day, I am wanting to upgrade.

My primary uses for the basement viewing area are:
-Watching sports on Directv. I have their 4K service on a 65" Samsung upstairs and its incredible. I want to be able to view 4K downstairs as well.
-Watching movies via our 4K Apple TV. Again, watching them in 4k on the Samsung is great, but I want that experience downstairs.

I will never do any type of console or computer gaming on this projector. I dont know a ton about the 18gm chipset but I believe the primary reason for needing the better chipset is to game at 4K in 60fps, which I will never do.

I guess I am getting at this point. This will be my 3rd projector and I upgrade about every 3 years. For me, I just cant see spending $5,000 on a Sony to get True4K, when I can spend $2,000 on the 4010 and then upgrade again down the road in 3-4 years. Again, I know I will be sacrificing some picture quality details at this price point, but for a guy who just wants to watch football (with the lights on) and the occasional movie (in a light controlled setting) I think the 4010 is the best bang for the buck out there currently.

The 4010 is going to offer a higher lumen output then my current Sony and the ability to watch 4k source material. I understand that this isn't true 4k, but its also 60% less expensive while achieving an "almost" true 4k image.

Thoughts???
It isn't just the 18GBS input lacking. This Epson ignores HALF the information in a 4k UHD source. Just throws it away. Since you are most concerned about better ambient light use compared to your 40ES, why not look at any of the DLP projectors that are brighter than your 40ES and put ALL the information from 4k UHD sources onscreen ? They are actually less expensive than this Epson. There is no situation where I would trade away FULL 4k for this HALF 4k Epson.
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post #76 of 478 Old 09-20-2018, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
If you though the Epson looked sharp wouldn’t it make more sense to look at a JVC E-shift instead of one of their native models? The closer comparison to the 4010, besides whatever replaces the 5040ub, would be the JVC X790 which JVC has promised they’ll reduce in price to $4k. It will be the only remaining E-shift projector (1080p x 2) in their lineup and has a comparable feature set plus HDMI 2.0 and significantly better contrast. My guess is that model is about to become pretty popular at it’s new price.
Yes, I completely agree, the now-price-reduced RS540 will be very popular with those who don't want or need native 4K, because it's a contrast beast with few rivals.

No. I didn't say that the older Epson's (5040/6040) looked as good as the new native JVCs. I was comparing the resolution of the new 4050 (5050) to the 4K JVC NX-5. Epson also had an older 6040 in the adjacent demo room, where they were comparing to a Sony 385, and to me, the new 4050 looked much better than the 6040 did. I have no idea what they changed internally, but from what they told us, it had a lot to do with how the new projector(4050/5050/4010) processes the image, and it simply had a sharper, crisper image than the older shifters. Whatever they did made it look very close to native 4K. I won't be going with a previous-gen pixel-shifting model. If I don't buy a native JVC NX-5 or Sony 295, I'll likely get a 5050. That's all I was saying. My takeaway from CEDIA...the image from those three new models were extremely close, resolution-wise, based on the content they showed us at each company's demo. Had I not seen it myself, and someone told me all this, I would likely think the same thing... oh, this guy probably has bad vision and can't tell the difference anyway. Ironically, I just went to the eye doctor, and I have 20/15 vision, so no worries there - if anything, I should be more susceptible to seeing individual pixels or a less crisp image. However, you never know what's behind the curtain with a mfg demo. They may have used some special sauce there that we'll never get to taste in the production version. This is why I want to see some real world reviews to determine if the native 4K models are actually worth the extra ~$3K. At the end of the day, if your budget is in the $2,000-2,500 range, I'd take a long hard look at the new Epson's and never have a second thought, because IMO nothing else will come close for that price.
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post #77 of 478 Old 09-21-2018, 06:30 AM
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The primary reason I spent the money to fly to California and go to CEDIA was just to see the new JVC NX-5 and Sony 295 4K projectors.
That was the only reason I went as well. You must be my long lost twin. Did you also buy an Infinity massage chair while there like me? LOL
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That was the only reason I went as well. You must be my long lost twin. Did you also buy an Infinity massage chair while there like me? LOL
good thing i didn't go there id probably be divorced when got home. did you see the epson 4050/4010 while there? if so what were your initial impressions of black levels/contrast. and what was the setup like?.. not ideal i'm sure.
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post #79 of 478 Old 09-21-2018, 07:38 AM
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good thing i didn't go there id probably be divorced when got home. did you see the epson 4050/4010 while there? if so what were your initial impressions of black levels/contrast. and what was the setup like?.. not ideal i'm sure.
Yea, the 4050 looked really good. I studied it pretty closely and asked myself what the hell is it missing. Maybe some contrast, but damn, you have to really split hairs to see it I think. And without seeing them all side by side, it's impossible to tell if any one of them is vastly superior. I came away slightly favoring the Sony 295, but I could easily be swayed in a different direction. I won't consider the 4050 however, because apparently it still doesn't have an 18gbps chipset which is unconscionable. A 5050 without this limitation would make things more interesting for sure, but given this product doesn't exist yet and likely won't anytime soon (or why not at least announce at CEDIA?), Epson is not likely to get my business. Nonetheless, the 4050 proved to me Epson can still very much compete. The only explanation for crippling it with a crappy chip-set would be for the intro of a non-crippled 5050, but that didn't and hasn't happened yet. Epson has served up a nice little appetizer with the 4050/4010, but I'm ready for the main course.
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yes its a joke they didnt include the 18gbs hdmi i imagine that will make most people not even consider it. But did i see something about the epson 4010 doing tone mapping or did i misread it somewhere. i thought the new jvc 's coming out soon were only ones to have that feature..
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post #81 of 478 Old 09-21-2018, 11:10 AM
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yes its a joke they didnt include the 18gbs hdmi i imagine that will make most people not even consider it. But did i see something about the epson 4010 doing tone mapping or did i misread it somewhere. i thought the new jvc 's coming out soon were only ones to have that feature..
All projectors that accept HDR have to do tone mapping or else they would clip 50% or 60% of the available image.

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post #82 of 478 Old 09-21-2018, 11:27 AM
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so whats difference then in what new jvcs do that everyone so excited about? is it how they do it differently like the panasonic ub820 by analyzing data from disc?
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post #83 of 478 Old 09-21-2018, 12:56 PM
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so whats difference then in what new jvcs do that everyone so excited about? is it how they do it differently like the panasonic ub820 by analyzing data from disc?
The Panasonic players have the best HDR to SDR 'conversion' (read: tone mapping) and this was coveted because HDR on previous generation 4K projectors from JVC, Epson and others was essentially broken. Hell, BenQ didn't even include HDR on their 4K HT9050.


Projectors don't have the output to display HDR properly. Most HDR content is graded at 1000 nits. Many LCDs can hit that, no problem, but OLEDs fall short at around 700 nits and projectors struggle with most coming in between 100 and 400 nits. But wait, it gets better! HDR10 (the most popular HDR 'standard') is barely a standard in that it doesn't have metadata that tells a display what to do with information outside of it's capabilities-- like DolbyVision does-- AND each movie is graded differently. So, basically, the responsibility of mapping falls to the manufacturers and they are forced to make it up as they go. Some are pretty good at this and some aren't.

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post #84 of 478 Old 09-21-2018, 12:57 PM
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Correct, it's auto tone mapping. It automatically adjusts settings based on the medadata from HDR sources.
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post #85 of 478 Old 09-21-2018, 01:31 PM
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Epson Announces Home Cinema 4010 4K Pro-UHD Projector

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Correct, it's auto tone mapping. It automatically adjusts settings based on the medadata from HDR sources.


There’s no metadata. Only Dolby Vision provides metadata. With HDR10, you either have the nits or you make your best guess.

So what JVC is doing is making their best guess based on the peak brightness and average brightness of the content. That’s neat but... it’s still a guess. Let’s call it an educated guess!

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Last edited by sage11x; 09-21-2018 at 01:50 PM.
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post #86 of 478 Old 09-21-2018, 04:25 PM
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"... up to ± 96% horizontal and up to ± 47% vertical lens shift...." I've never seen lense shift on an Epson projector with more horizontal range than vertical- Considering these numbers, this must be a typo.
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post #87 of 478 Old 09-21-2018, 05:01 PM
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Just went and picked up my 4010 from best buy, wasn't supposed to be here until next thursday. screen should arrive tonight. the mount won't arrive until next week and i'll be out of town until next friday. so ready for my theater room to be done, almost there.
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post #88 of 478 Old 09-21-2018, 06:03 PM
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Just went and picked up my 4010 from best buy, wasn't supposed to be here until next thursday. screen should arrive tonight. the mount won't arrive until next week and i'll be out of town until next friday. so ready for my theater room to be done, almost there.
I'm on phone amazon now they were supposed ship mine yesterday but didnt now said definitely today but still hasn't shipped. I was really hoping to get mine this weekend and hooked up to see how it is but not looking good.
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post #89 of 478 Old 09-21-2018, 06:18 PM
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"... up to ± 96% horizontal and up to ± 47% vertical lens shift...." I've never seen lense shift on an Epson projector with more horizontal range than vertical- Considering these numbers, this must be a typo.
Yep, they reversed the percentages.
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post #90 of 478 Old 09-22-2018, 05:54 AM
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well i was very excited to be getting my 4010 today and hooked up to let everyone know my initial impressions..but so much for having mine today to test out. Damn you amazon! since was expensive purchase , they said had to do a "review" of my order to make sure it was legit and then check with bank which took 2 days then even though she said still get it today they never shipped it. now says tuesday. How do you conduct a review to find out if its a real order by me and not hacked account without contacting that person that owns account ... ugh guess ill have to wait till tuesday now to see what the 4010 can do.
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