Epson Announces Home Cinema 4010 4K Pro-UHD Projector - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 478 Old 09-18-2018, 03:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Epson Announces Home Cinema 4010 4K Pro-UHD Projector

The Epson Home Cinema 4010 4K Pro-UHD projector ($2000) is a new offering from Epson that possesses the same image processing and pixel shifting technology as the recently announced Pro Cinema 4050. It achieves DCI/P3 gamut, supports HDR, outputs 2400 lumens, can achieve 200,000:1 contrast, and has a 15-element motorized glass lens with wide adjustability.

According to Epson, this projector delivers 100% of the DCI/P3 color gamut. What's more, the lens offers "powered focus, 2.1x zoom, up to ± 96% horizontal and up to ± 47% vertical lens shift, and 10 preset positions." Image processing is performed in 12 bits and this projector's final output is 10-bit video (for proper HDR support).

Read more here: https://www.avsforum.com/epson-annou...uhd-projector/


The Epson Home Cinema 4010 4K Pro-UHD projector ($2000)

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Last edited by imagic; 09-18-2018 at 09:48 AM.
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post #2 of 478 Old 09-18-2018, 04:55 AM
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https://files.support.epson.com/docid/cpd5/cpd55708.pdf

Taken from the manual on Epson’s website. At this point I have to ask: what are they thinking? This looks to be a fantastic update to the 4000 but how are you going to saddle it with HDMI 1.4a (10.2Gbps)? In the grand AVS tradition I will now make a car analogy: that’s like putting pep boys tires on your Porsche!

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post #3 of 478 Old 09-18-2018, 04:58 AM
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I sure hope it supports more than just HDR10 at launch. No HLG, Dolby Vision, or HDR10+ support is exceptionally lame.
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post #4 of 478 Old 09-18-2018, 05:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by nathanddrews View Post
I sure hope it supports more than just HDR10 at launch. No HLG, Dolby Vision, or HDR10+ support is exceptionally lame.
I don't think anyone expected this to be the world's first and only projector to support HDR with dynamic metadata, which due to the nature of projectors and screens simply does not work as it would with a TV, which is why nobody has it. It was never going to happen and no other projector offers those features.

HLG, I guess there's a valid criticism there but for projected movies, HDR10 is all that matters right now.

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post #5 of 478 Old 09-18-2018, 05:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
https://files.support.epson.com/docid/cpd5/cpd55708.pdf

Taken from the manual on Epson’s website. At this point I have to ask: what are they thinking? This looks to be a fantastic update to the 4000 but how are you going to saddle it with HDMI 1.4a (10.2Gbps)? In the grand AVS tradition I will now make a car analogy: that’s like putting pep boys tires on your Porsche!
Disappointing if you are a gamer who wants to play in HDR. Just fine if you're looking for a home theater projector explicitly for HDR movies.
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post #6 of 478 Old 09-18-2018, 05:23 AM
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Sage11x, can you get one for review? I don't get the whole HDMI 1.4 either, its not a huge price upgrade to 2.0b. It would take care of the color banding I noticed in games like WoW and Shadow of the Tomb Raider and others. I haven't seen the banding in movies though, yet.

Do we have a time frame on the 5050? The 9400 was shown in Europe last month.

Thought I could hold out for a while, but as with this hobby, I am getting the upgrade itch sooner rather than later.
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post #7 of 478 Old 09-18-2018, 05:49 AM
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Help me understand... so I can connect my pc or Xbox and use 4K 60hz but not hdr?


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post #8 of 478 Old 09-18-2018, 05:54 AM
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Epson is probably going to add the better hdmi chipset to the new 5050 (or whatever they are going to call it) and make it the entry point to get it to help keep profits up...ugh

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post #9 of 478 Old 09-18-2018, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Disappointing if you are a gamer who wants to play in HDR. Just fine if you're looking for a home theater projector explicitly for HDR movies.


True. But considering how important gaming is— especially in this price range— this still seems like a silly place to cut a corner. The Epson has so much going for it already why bottleneck your performance over what has to be less than a $10 part?
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post #10 of 478 Old 09-18-2018, 07:24 AM
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Hi There,

I had settled on purchasing the Epson 4050 4K to replace my old Epson 5010. I just saw the news of this model's release. The price difference isn't a whole lot, but from what I'm seeing, the technical specifications look exactly the same. I feel like I'm missing something. What does 4050 offer over this 4010 which makes it a better purchase.

No gaming. Media only.

Thanks!

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post #11 of 478 Old 09-18-2018, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by mickey79 View Post
Hi There,



I had settled on purchasing the Epson 4050 4K to replace my old Epson 5010. I just saw the news of this model's release. The price difference isn't a whole lot, but from what I'm seeing, the technical specifications look exactly the same. I feel like I'm missing something. What does 4050 offer over this 4010 which makes it a better purchase.



No gaming. Media only.



Thanks!


You get an extra year of warranty and an extra bulb.


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post #12 of 478 Old 09-18-2018, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by DRaven72 View Post
Sage11x, can you get one for review? I don't get the whole HDMI 1.4 either, its not a huge price upgrade to 2.0b. It would take care of the color banding I noticed in games like WoW and Shadow of the Tomb Raider and others. I haven't seen the banding in movies though, yet.



Do we have a time frame on the 5050? The 9400 was shown in Europe last month.



Thought I could hold out for a while, but as with this hobby, I am getting the upgrade itch sooner rather than later.


I wish. I’m trying to get Optoma to send me a UHD50 so I can do a head-to-head with the BenQ HT2550 review sample I already have. I’ve heard there is a company rep on this forum so if I can find him maybe I’ll reach out to him...

I believe Mark, @imagic , has stated he is receiving a 4050 review sample. Plus, Scott Wilkinson actually won one at the CEDIA show so ether way there should be some impressions incoming.

Honestly, if this is indeed sharper than the 4000/5040ub, had Epson given this HDMI 2.0 I would have considered a purchase for my own theater. If nothing else it would be a fantastic reference to compare the new crop of DLPs against. $2000 and below is really where my niche is and the Epson is certainly a standout in this price range.
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post #13 of 478 Old 09-18-2018, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by yakapo View Post
You get an extra year of warranty and an extra bulb.


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So exact same projectors - no technical/specifications difference?

Then my next question would be, the conversation above this post between the good folks seems to be pointing at some shortcomings in this projector - especially the 'pep boys tires on Porsche' - I'm not an expert on these matters. I've enjoyed my 5010 since it was commercially released, I believe sometime in 2011. Recently I've moved on to 4K - my devices, HTPC, TVs, and was hoping to upgrade my Projector to 4K in the under $3K range.

Essentially UHD HDR media playback, along with the usual 1080p & 3D.

Is this a good purchase or should I wait for some necessary improvement? The $2K - $2.3K is perfect for my budget and I thought this was a great offering - but I'm not in an excruciating rush either. If there is an improvement expected by the end of this year, I'm game.

Appreciate any suggestion/info.

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Disappointing if you are a gamer who wants to play in HDR. Just fine if you're looking for a home theater projector explicitly for HDR movies.
If they at least supported HDMI 1.4b for 1080p at 120hz, that would be something to latch onto for gamers. But no. Then they could do the upscaling to 4K e-shift internally, once the signal is past the HDMI input bottleneck. This is such a ridiculous move on Epson's part. Hard pass.

Come to think of it, 10 gbps should be enough for HDR10 at 1080p 120hz in 4:4:4, since 20 gbps is enough for HDR10 in 4:4:4 at 4K60, which four times more pixels per frame, but half as many frames per second, so half the bandwidth necessary. So, 20 / 2 = 10. Voila.

20 gbps is one of the possible HDMI 2.1 step-up bandwidth levels from HDMI 2.0, the lowest, which is still attractive since it enables 4K60 at 4:4:4 with HDR10. Many people would jump on that, not just gamers, for windows desktop use, Netflix streaming, etc, where 60hz is the default since 24hz is garbage and offers a terrible user experience even for UIs.

Let's hope 2019 brings us HDMI 2.1 inputs, with at least 20 gbps bandwidth. Nobody wants blurry text in their UIs, especially if they dish out for the expensive native 4K projectors available now.
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post #15 of 478 Old 09-18-2018, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mickey79 View Post
So exact same projectors - no technical/specifications difference?

Then my next question would be, the conversation above this post between the good folks seems to be pointing at some shortcomings in this projector - especially the 'pep boys tires on Porsche' - I'm not an expert on these matters. I've enjoyed my 5010 since it was commercially released, I believe sometime in 2011. Recently I've moved on to 4K - my devices, HTPC, TVs, and was hoping to upgrade my Projector to 4K in the under $3K range.

Essentially UHD HDR media playback, along with the usual 1080p & 3D.

Is this a good purchase or should I wait for some necessary improvement? The $2K - $2.3K is perfect for my budget and I thought this was a great offering - but I'm not in an excruciating rush either. If there is an improvement expected by the end of this year, I'm game.

Appreciate any suggestion/info.

Thanks!

Identical projector save the longer warranty, free extra bulb, free ceiling mount, and black color instead of white...

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post #16 of 478 Old 09-18-2018, 08:03 AM
 
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Help me understand... so I can connect my pc or Xbox and use 4K 60hz but not hdr?
If the projector supports HDR10 at 1080p that is still potentially an option for consoles, which struggle to do 60 fps, especially at 4K. I'd say as long as you can still enable e-shift to boost the quality a bit with 1080p signals, which I believe does work.

1080p at 60fps would be much better than 4K at 30 fps, especially with HDR. HDR benefits a lot from HFR and vice versa. This is assuming the measured native contrast ratio is substantially better than a 1080p DC3 HDR-compatible projector like the new Optoma HD27HDR that doesn't event try to do e-shift. If you aren't rainbow sensitive then I'd consider that one, it's only 650$ bucks. The main downside would be lack of P3 gamut on the Optoma gaming projector, but it more than makes up for that with 3400 lumens over 2400 and 16ms input lag instead of 33 or whatever this one has. You pay a third the price and get more. 1080p still has some life left in it, I think, especially for gamers.

I'd consider a 1080p + HDR10 model, for sure. Let's face it, HDR is what's really great about UHD revolution, and e-shift isn't that much better than native 1080p to pay three times the price and get 2/3rds the lumens.

If Optoma can deliver HDMI 2.0 18 gbps at a 650 dollar price point, Epson certainly can at the 2000 dollar price point. This is a slap in the face for gamers, for sure. Don't reward them.
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post #17 of 478 Old 09-18-2018, 10:41 AM
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I'd consider a 1080p + HDR10 model, for sure. Let's face it, HDR is what's really great about UHD revolution, and e-shift isn't that much better than native 1080p to pay three times the price and get 2/3rds the lumens.

Battle, I agree with almost everything you’re saying here but I have to continue to argue with this position.

HDR is what’s really great about UHD on flat screens where the benefits of 4K resolution are blunted by the small screen size. On projectors, where the average screen size is over 100”, the resolution is SUPER important.
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post #18 of 478 Old 09-18-2018, 10:59 AM
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4K 60hz but not hdr
So will this have the same issue with streaming HDR on Netflix as the prior generation of Epsons had? I'm not as concerned with gaming performance as I am UHD movie content.
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post #19 of 478 Old 09-18-2018, 11:28 AM
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So, in 3 years, or whatever, with the 5040, then the 4000, they haven't figured out that 18Gbs HDMI matters?

I'm really confused by this move and this decision. 18Gbs chipsets have been in TVs for quite a while now. They are readily available and projector buyers want them.

It is in CHEAP TVs and expensive ones as well, and this model isn't exactly the cheapest and is very much going head-to-head with the DLP models out there which are getting constant updates and upgrades from all the players involved.

Did Epson really drop the ball that badly?

Will the 5050 have this feature built in and fix the pipeline?
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post #20 of 478 Old 09-18-2018, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Robert Clark View Post
Identical projector save the longer warranty, free extra bulb, free ceiling mount, and black color instead of white...
So that is the $400.00 (plus difference in tax) question...

An extra bulb will run you what between $100 to $150
A good ceiling mount will run you between $100-$200
Housing color makes no real difference in terms of pricing

So that extra year of warranty is costing you between $50-$200.00, guess it comes down to if that extra year of warranty and/or not caring about what mount you use matters to you...

Im not sure, I think visually the black housing does look more professional/highend but I dont need a bulb right away, and without knowing what mount you are getting unless that info is available and I missed it, I think I would still want to get my own mount that works for my needs... I might just save the $400.00 and go with the 4010, unless the 4050 has more cherry picked internal hardware and glass over what the 4010 gets.

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post #21 of 478 Old 09-18-2018, 12:11 PM
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So, in 3 years, or whatever, with the 5040, then the 4000, they haven't figured out that 18Gbs HDMI matters?

I'm really confused by this move and this decision. 18Gbs chipsets have been in TVs for quite a while now. They are readily available and projector buyers want them.

It is in CHEAP TVs and expensive ones as well, and this model isn't exactly the cheapest and is very much going head-to-head with the DLP models out there which are getting constant updates and upgrades from all the players involved.

Did Epson really drop the ball that badly?

Will the 5050 have this feature built in and fix the pipeline?

It was kept out of the 4000s so that we would all want to buy the inevitable 5000s.
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A source tells me the 4100 will see an Epson MAP discount to $1799 the first week of October. The People that told me are a major online Projector retailer. Even then, I'm still not sure it's a better buy than the 4000 at $1599... I'm eying the 4000 or possibly a demo 5040UBe with new bulb and wireless transmitter for $1900.

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Does it still require the use of the digital filter, with a considerable loss of brightness to achieve DCI/P3 gamut?
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post #24 of 478 Old 09-18-2018, 01:39 PM
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What will this produce for calibrated lumens in D65 and P3?


Is it safe to say it would be similar to the previous gen? What did they do?
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post #25 of 478 Old 09-18-2018, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Disappointing if you are a gamer who wants to play in HDR. Just fine if you're looking for a home theater projector explicitly for HDR movies.
pffft. HDR 4K UHD....sooooo 2017!!

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post #26 of 478 Old 09-18-2018, 03:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
Battle, I agree with almost everything you’re saying here but I have to continue to argue with this position.

HDR is what’s really great about UHD on flat screens where the benefits of 4K resolution are blunted by the small screen size. On projectors, where the average screen size is over 100”, the resolution is SUPER important.
Fair enough. It's just that, for me, when I watch my razor-sharp 1080p DLP every day, that cost me 800 dollars six years ago, the main thing that I find lacking is contrast, refresh rate and brightness in 3D. Also I find banding tiresome too. So even though 4K resolution is arguably a much bigger and obvious upgrade for projectors, I'd rather get more insights into the depth of the image, than super sharp detail which, it's obvious to me, gets blurred the second the camera or the actor moves. Whereas contrast is always there (well, more or less, depending on how bright the APL of the scene is), lumens are definitely always relevant, and HDR demands both higher lumens and higher contrast.

I guess you have to pick your poison. Actually, I wouldn't mind a 1080p XPR 2-shifter, using the DC3 chips which can run at 120hz easily, with 2500:1 contrast and e-shift-like resolution. So worse detail than all the current XPR DPLs but much, much better contrast for HDR. I go by numbers and numbers don't lie, unlike subjective opinions. I honestly don't believe that a 700:1 native contrast can compete with an 1800:1 contrast projector, especially when the latter costs a third of the price and offers more lumens and 120hz and 8.3ms input lag. There are just too many advantages to be had in 1080p-land.

I would kill to see Billy Lynn in 120, 60, and 24 fps, side by side, or split screen (in thirds), in WCG + HDR of course. I think that alone would convince more people of the awesome potential of even 1080p 120hz HDR10 to deliver stunning images.

I wish Sony and JVC and Epson would get the clue about 120hz too, and sadly Epson doesn't seem to even care about 60hz! let alone 120. It's really a shame about the 10 gbps inputs.
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post #27 of 478 Old 09-18-2018, 06:25 PM
 
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Does it still require the use of the digital filter, with a considerable loss of brightness to achieve DCI/P3 gamut?
That's what I'd like to know about it!?

Seriously, JVC's DCI filter costs 20% lumens but Epson's costs 50%. How can that be? They're both using presumably similar lamps so their spectrum should be roughly comparable, thus the dichroic filters they use in their 3-chip designs shouldn't be too dissimilar. Adding an extra P3 filter there should cost exactly the same lumens on any projector, as far as my understanding of physics goes. Which is, admittedly, incomplete.

Sorry for talking all uppity, I just watched the finale of Elementary (fantastic!)
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post #28 of 478 Old 09-18-2018, 08:06 PM
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Just ordered the 4010 from Best buy, should get it by sept. 28. my room is almost done, seats should arrive next week. this will be my first projector, it will be in a light controlled room 14x18 first row is at 12 feet and second row around 18 with a 135 inch screen.
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post #29 of 478 Old 09-18-2018, 08:15 PM
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Fair enough. It's just that, for me, when I watch my razor-sharp 1080p DLP every day, that cost me 800 dollars six years ago, the main thing that I find lacking is contrast, refresh rate and brightness in 3D. Also I find banding tiresome too. So even though 4K resolution is arguably a much bigger and obvious upgrade for projectors, I'd rather get more insights into the depth of the image, than super sharp detail which, it's obvious to me, gets blurred the second the camera or the actor moves. Whereas contrast is always there (well, more or less, depending on how bright the APL of the scene is), lumens are definitely always relevant, and HDR demands both higher lumens and higher contrast.



I guess you have to pick your poison. Actually, I wouldn't mind a 1080p XPR 2-shifter, using the DC3 chips which can run at 120hz easily, with 2500:1 contrast and e-shift-like resolution. So worse detail than all the current XPR DPLs but much, much better contrast for HDR. I go by numbers and numbers don't lie, unlike subjective opinions. I honestly don't believe that a 700:1 native contrast can compete with an 1800:1 contrast projector, especially when the latter costs a third of the price and offers more lumens and 120hz and 8.3ms input lag. There are just too many advantages to be had in 1080p-land.



I would kill to see Billy Lynn in 120, 60, and 24 fps, side by side, or split screen (in thirds), in WCG + HDR of course. I think that alone would convince more people of the awesome potential of even 1080p 120hz HDR10 to deliver stunning images.



I wish Sony and JVC and Epson would get the clue about 120hz too, and sadly Epson doesn't seem to even care about 60hz! let alone 120. It's really a shame about the 10 gbps inputs.


I don’t want to get too off topic on this thread but I will say this: there aren’t any sub $1000 projectors with 2500:1 native contrast. Most sub $1000 DLPs are around 1000:1. Most of the sub $1000 Epson’s are less than 500:1. The BenQ HT2050A has a reputation for having some of the best contrast of any sub $1000 model and it’s native contrast is around 1350:1. It only reaches 2000:1 thanks to lamp dimming. The predecessor to the Epson we’re discussing here, the 4000, has a native contrast around the same as that BenQ— 1200:1. It’s only with an iris that it’s able to hit it’s nearly 3000:1 FOFO number.

For whatever reason, there seems to be a myth perpetuated here that HD projectors in this sub $2k price range have substantially better contrast than they do. It’s just not true. Only the Sony 45ES can claim that with it’s impressive 5000:1 native. Which is why, despite having no motorized lens, no lens memory, no pixel shifting and no hdr support it still manages to get recommended as a top pick in this range by many publications.

Look, I shared a lot of these sentiments last year. I was happy with 1080p and I said as much on this site. I’m here to say I was wrong. When I went back to a 1080p projector earlier this year to complete a review I was struck by how quickly I had grown accustomed to the extra detail and clarity of 4K. But I respect your opinion and I hope someone makes the projector you’re looking for.

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post #30 of 478 Old 09-19-2018, 05:30 AM
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I don't think anyone expected this to be the world's first and only projector to support HDR with dynamic metadata, which due to the nature of projectors and screens simply does not work as it would with a TV, which is why nobody has it. It was never going to happen and no other projector offers those features.
Eh? I didn't know that. Commercial projectors use dynamic metadata, though, right? The technology is there, I'm pretty sure.

Adding up the available information thus far, it would seem that this projector is not the right one for me. Our Epson 8350 is still going pretty strong and if I'm going to upgrade, it's got to be native 4K and support 60Hz with HDR for my gaming needs. Preferably, it would also support 120Hz 1080p or even 1440p as well. As long as I'm making a wishlist - throw in HDMI 2.1 features like Game Mode VRR and low latency modes. Sounds like I'll be waiting another year or two.
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