First projector, buy 1070/2050 or wait for next gen? (not in a rush) - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 14 Old 11-01-2018, 12:19 AM - Thread Starter
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First projector, buy 1070/2050 or wait for next gen? (not in a rush)

So it dawned on me that my basement with only one small window would benefit from a projector setup. Currently using a 60" plasma. Room dimensions are 11'w x 17'9"L x 7.5'H with the screen going on the 11' wall, and I haven't decided on 16:9 or 2:35:1. I'll go as wide as I can on that wall and probably due a AT DIY screen. The screen won't work on the longer side due to layout. Squeezed two rows in with the primary row being 10' from the screen. I don't really care about the back row right now as it's just for overflow. I live in Canada and have been looking at refurbished projectors to get the most out of my money. I wouldn't even mind used to test the waters, but all the used projectors are grossly overpriced.

I'm not looking to spend lots but I know LED and 4k are just coming to the affordable market. I'm not in a rush to buy a projector, and am wondering what is on the horizon for the sub $1000 projectors. The current home theater doesn't get used very often unfortunately but I think if I spruce things up it will see use. We actually don't have a theater in the city where I live now so I figured the kids would enjoy it once they get old enough.

I'm fine with 1080p until the 4k gets nailed down but I believe LED bulbs should be taking over. The only reason I see why they haven't is to up sell, but what do I know haha. Do you think we'll see some big changes next year or will they "hold off" on the lower end projectors to get people to move up the chain?
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post #2 of 14 Old 11-01-2018, 06:02 AM
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I think the XPR 4K DLP's will drop to well under $1k in a year so it might be worth waiting. LED can't compete with lamp based for lumens at this point in time only laser can and it's cost is still too high. I would buy an inexpensive 1080p projector to get your feet wet and see if its right for you.
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post #3 of 14 Old 11-01-2018, 06:16 AM
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If not too tight on money, why not buy a 1080p and try it out? 60" is not big if viewing from 10' away. I think you should be able to find a used/refurbished 1070/2050 for less than $500. I just bought a 2050. Plan to upgrade to 4K after the price drops more and technology matures, hopefully in a few years.
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post #4 of 14 Old 11-01-2018, 06:30 AM
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Your kids will know no difference between 4k and 1080P. Both will look amazing. I have no burning desire for more than my 1080p set up at this time and I have been doing this for 13 years. 1080p will look every bit as nice as any commercial movie theater you have been to.

As to AR to do a scope set up you will need a more expensive projector that can do zooming, image shift and focus automatically. Getting started I would say CIW is simpler way to go. I have a simple basic HT projector and I figured out a way to move the projector to do CIH+IMAX as some of the new movies now expand from scope to IMAX like the movie Dunkirk or The Dark Knight. In my case I still want a 16:9 screen then.

Look at the forum at the top of the page Great found deals. The BenQ HT1070A is listed there and I would get something like that over a refurb maybe for a longer warranty.

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post #5 of 14 Old 11-01-2018, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post
Your kids will know no difference between 4k and 1080P.
Haha. My kid doesn't complain about DVD though I try my best to get bluray.
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post #6 of 14 Old 11-01-2018, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by toddwz View Post
Haha. My kid doesn't complain about DVD though I try my best to get bluray.
I have over 3000DVD’s and I’m not about to replace more than a handful as I find they are good enough up scaled to 1080p. I had a 720p projector for a long time and being half way between DVD and BD it did a great job scaling both ways. With moving to a 1080p projector of course BD is perfect and there is a little loss over the 720 projector in playing DVD but like you all my new stuff is BD. I might buy a combo BD/UHD BD to future proof if it is something really special.

One of the reasons I have my variable zoom presentation system is because of older DVD media. I sit about 8’ from my 110” image and with DVD I zoom down to 75-80” image and it looks great and it is still huge compared to any flat screen TV we could afford.

Playing them smaller makes them clearer and also makes a full size expanding IMAX BD a special treat.

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post #7 of 14 Old 11-01-2018, 08:25 AM
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Playing them smaller makes them clearer and also makes a full size expanding IMAX BD a special treat.
Thump up for your positive thinking!
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Haha. My kid doesn't complain about DVD though I try my best to get bluray.
Even with massive screens in commercial cinemas, 2K resolution and 2000:1 contrast for digital cinema DLPs is considered "good enough" for most people.

The impressive thing is the size, and the cost / inch is great on projectors. Although TVs are catching up because of economy of scale. DLPs have if anything regressed since 1080p days and I personally don't consider the 4K chips to be actual upgrades. They are at most "side-grades", sacrificing half or even 75% of their native contrast to get simulated 4K is not a good tradeoff in my opinion.

When you can buy a 100 inch LCD TV for under the price of a JVC, then projectors are going to suffer big time because most people don't have walls that would even fit a screen much bigger than around 120 inch diagonal.

If the Op is into gaming, then the 1080p Optoma HD27HDR might be a good choice. It supports HDR and 4K input but doesn't try to render the 4K at all, it just downscales. I believe this is a good strategy since there are numerous benefits to UHD Blurays and streams besides resolution. Bit depth, bitrate, codec efficiency, HDR, WCG, all those things could in theory help a native 1080p projector deliver a stunning image.

LEDs might not be as bright as lamp projectors but they don't dim quickly, so I hope by next year we'll have more choices like that. We definitely will, and at least Optoma and Acer have gamer-friendly 120hz 1080p DLPs out now (or coming out soon), with ultra low input lag too, that should put all other projectors to shame in terms of gaming performance.

With RGB LEDs or lasers, and no physical colour wheel, a DLP manufacturer could even, in theory, implement variable refresh rates, which are practically impossible with physically rotating colour wheels. Then DLP starts to look better and better.
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post #9 of 14 Old 11-01-2018, 05:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toddwz View Post
If not too tight on money, why not buy a 1080p and try it out? 60" is not big if viewing from 10' away. I think you should be able to find a used/refurbished 1070/2050 for less than $500. I just bought a 2050. Plan to upgrade to 4K after the price drops more and technology matures, hopefully in a few years.
Well I think that's the plan. In Canada things cost a little more but the best deals I've seen so far is the 2050 for $600 refurbished. There's been talk of the 5030ub being $999 refurbished on flash sales but I'd have to keep a close watch for that deal I believe.


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Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post
Your kids will know no difference between 4k and 1080P. Both will look amazing. I have no burning desire for more than my 1080p set up at this time and I have been doing this for 13 years. 1080p will look every bit as nice as any commercial movie theater you have been to.

As to AR to do a scope set up you will need a more expensive projector that can do zooming, image shift and focus automatically. Getting started I would say CIW is simpler way to go. I have a simple basic HT projector and I figured out a way to move the projector to do CIH+IMAX as some of the new movies now expand from scope to IMAX like the movie Dunkirk or The Dark Knight. In my case I still want a 16:9 screen then.

Look at the forum at the top of the page Great found deals. The BenQ HT1070A is listed there and I would get something like that over a refurb maybe for a longer warranty.
I had a thought of trying the sliding rack to go between the two formats. Or doing the temporary masking of the upper/lower screen.

Unfortunately the US gets better deals than we do but I'm definitely looking around for the best sales up here.

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Even with massive screens in commercial cinemas, 2K resolution and 2000:1 contrast for digital cinema DLPs is considered "good enough" for most people.

The impressive thing is the size, and the cost / inch is great on projectors. Although TVs are catching up because of economy of scale. DLPs have if anything regressed since 1080p days and I personally don't consider the 4K chips to be actual upgrades. They are at most "side-grades", sacrificing half or even 75% of their native contrast to get simulated 4K is not a good tradeoff in my opinion.

When you can buy a 100 inch LCD TV for under the price of a JVC, then projectors are going to suffer big time because most people don't have walls that would even fit a screen much bigger than around 120 inch diagonal.

If the Op is into gaming, then the 1080p Optoma HD27HDR might be a good choice. It supports HDR and 4K input but doesn't try to render the 4K at all, it just downscales. I believe this is a good strategy since there are numerous benefits to UHD Blurays and streams besides resolution. Bit depth, bitrate, codec efficiency, HDR, WCG, all those things could in theory help a native 1080p projector deliver a stunning image.

LEDs might not be as bright as lamp projectors but they don't dim quickly, so I hope by next year we'll have more choices like that. We definitely will, and at least Optoma and Acer have gamer-friendly 120hz 1080p DLPs out now (or coming out soon), with ultra low input lag too, that should put all other projectors to shame in terms of gaming performance.

With RGB LEDs or lasers, and no physical colour wheel, a DLP manufacturer could even, in theory, implement variable refresh rates, which are practically impossible with physically rotating colour wheels. Then DLP starts to look better and better.
I never did consider the Optoma so I'll have to look around and see what prices I can get it for. I am a light gamer but it's definitely not a deal breaker.
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post #10 of 14 Old 11-02-2018, 06:42 AM
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If the Op is into gaming, then the 1080p Optoma HD27HDR might be a good choice. It supports HDR and 4K input but doesn't try to render the 4K at all, it just downscales. I believe this is a good strategy since there are numerous benefits to UHD Blurays and streams besides resolution. Bit depth, bitrate, codec efficiency, HDR, WCG, all those things could in theory help a native 1080p projector deliver a stunning image.
Good point. Never thought downscaling from 4k to FHD was a good idea. Now you made me regret on my purchase of Benq 2050A.

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Well I think that's the plan. In Canada things cost a little more but the best deals I've seen so far is the 2050 for $600 refurbished. There's been talk of the 5030ub being $999 refurbished on flash sales but I'd have to keep a close watch for that deal I believe.
Good luck. Even in US we need to be alert and act fast. $600 refurb seems a good price for 2050 considering lowest being around $509 in US.

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post #11 of 14 Old 11-02-2018, 09:29 AM
 
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If you pass 10-bit Gamma 2.2 to the 2050A it should be quite good with HDR video content at least, tone mapped on a PC of course. When you have a PC as your source you can use MadVR and get much better image quality that way. So UHD 4:2:0 will be FHD 4:4:4, and maintain 10-bit depth during conversion from HDR10 to SDR 10-bit. It's not quite as good as native HDR10 obviously, but at least it's something.

What's interesting is a recent Nvidia driver update and my new RTX 2080 Ti allows me to set my w1070 to use 10-bit in RGB mode, without even dropping to 4:2:0 like it used to. The desktop is still in 32-bit mode so there's no real benefit, but it means in theory that full-screen games can do 4:4:4 10-bit Gamma 2.8 (which is much more similar to HDR than Gamma 2.2).
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post #12 of 14 Old 11-02-2018, 11:34 AM
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In an Almost* "side by side" comparison, it is relatively easy to find content where a 4K projector (the BenQ 2550) shows noticeably better Fine Detail than a 1080p unit (BenQ 1070A or 2050). (* Both units connected to same A/V System & projecting onto same screen - but switching between the 2 projectors.)


However, on their own accord (that is, in Absence of a fast "A - B" comparison), blue-ray disks look great on all of the 1080p projectors I have seen (admittedly only 4 to 6 BenQ models). Given the cost to "upgrade" to 4K (projector, player, disks - or other 4K content), we are standing pat for the time being - although with an eye toward starting to collect "4K / Blu-Ray" Combo releases, much as we began purchasing "Blu-Ray / SD" disks prior to that upgrade.


I would "second" the advice to consider an inexpensive 1080p projector (1070A, 2050, or whatever), and live with that until you think it might be worthwhile to jump to 4k: prices are likely to continue to fall on that tech, and (hopefully!) specs will continue to improve.


Best of luck in your decision!



FWIW, we also run a 60" Plasma (Pan ST50, as our Living Room display) - with 2 smaller plasma sets as secondary displays.

A BenQ 1070A has replaced the 60" set as our "Home Theater display," projecting on to a Silver Ticket 110" screen.

Even given the same resolution (blu-ray), a 100 - 110" screen makes for a very enjoyable - and impressive - viewing experience.



Aside: we stared out with a cheap 100" Pull-Down screen: the Silver Ticket is a worthwhile upgrade.
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post #13 of 14 Old 11-02-2018, 04:28 PM
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If you pass 10-bit Gamma 2.2 to the 2050A it should be quite good with HDR video content at least
Sounds very interesting! Is there any tutorials how to do this properly?
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post #14 of 14 Old 11-03-2018, 08:50 AM
 
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I'm sure there are, in Doom9 forums but @madshi (creator of MadVR) also posts here so maybe he has some insights or comments.

What's kind of annoying is that it should be trivial to add a "fake HDR10" mode to any DLP projector, just by updating the LUT for one of the gamma modes, when using 10-bit inputs to map st 2084 encoded bit values (PQ = perceptual quantizer) into linear.

I hope Acer figures this out and adds HDR10 decoding to their G550. It's very similar to the Optoma HD27HDR but uses an RGB RGB colour wheel, which I think is almost always preferrable but I could be wrong (regarding HDR in rec 709 colour space, having more peak white lumens might be OK even with a modest colour shift for the brightest specular highlights due to the white segment on the wheel).
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