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post #271 of 5247 Old 01-04-2019, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by MJ DOOM View Post
Im interested in how the smart eco lamp dimming and active iris work together. The manual features both.



Also I see its a RGBRGB color wheel. I wonder if a filter is engaged for 94% DCI coverage and whats the lumen hit.



2 warranty too. Nice.


We shouldn’t assume they do. It’s a possibility that using the dynamic iris will disable the smarteco lamp mode and vice versa.

I can always ask but being that the official announcement is right around the corner...

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post #272 of 5247 Old 01-04-2019, 10:40 AM
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I was having a discussion with someone over 4K HDR projectors for my setup and there was an issue about my 150" Screen with 1.0 gain being able to do HDR properly with any of the projectors within my budget. Understanding that I don't have the budget for more expensive projectors, nor currently am I interested in reappropriating part of my projector budget towards a 150" screen with 1.3 gain, essentially I have to look for a projector with the best possible lumens/light output - so my consideration has somewhat changed.

I was suggested Epson for this reason. I already had the Epson vs BenQ discussion a couple pages back here which convinced me to go for BenQ for various reasons, including 8 million pixels, sharper, better 3D, better focus, better 4k and colors. However, we did not cover any issues related to my screen & light requirements for HDR.

So I'm putting this question out again in light of the recent discussions.

For better light output for my 150" 1.0 gain screen, specially for HDR, should I consider Epson (especially if an 18GB HDMI model is announced at CES), or will a BenQ W2700 or W5700 deliver similar light output / performance?

I was pretty set on BenQ and I'm not all that knowledgeable in these matters so I take advice from those in the know, now I'm a little confused.

Thanks guys.

Add: Just a note. Light output was never an issue on this same screen for my Epson 5010. But that was only SDR, not HDR. So I know SDR would not be an issue with any of the projectors on my screen, anything above 1500 lumens I believe. HDR however would be the issue.

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post #273 of 5247 Old 01-04-2019, 11:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mickey79 View Post
I was having a discussion with someone over 4K HDR projectors for my setup and there was an issue about my 150" Screen with 1.0 gain being able to do HDR properly with any of the projectors within my budget. Understanding that I don't have the budget for more expensive projectors, not currently am I interested in reappropriating part of my projector budget towards a 150" screen with 1.3 gain, essentially I have to look for a projector with the best possible lumens/light output - so my consideration has somewhat changed.



I was suggested Epson for this reason. I already had the Epson vs BenQ discussion a couple pages here which convinced me to go for BenQ for various reasons, including 8 million pixels, sharper, better 3D, better focus, better 4k and colors. However, we did not cover any issues related to my screen & light requirements for HDR.



So I'm putting this question out again in light of the recent discussions.



For better light output for my 150" 1.0 gain screen, specially for HDR, should I consider Epson (especially if an 18GB HDMI model is announced at CES), or will a BenQ W2700 or W5700 deliver similar light output / performance?



I was pretty set on BenQ and I'm not all that knowledgeable in these matters so I take advice from those in the know, now I'm a little confused.



Thanks guys.


Hey I chimed in before when you asked and I’ll chime in again... since you asked

Refresher: I’m in similar spot with my 160” 1.0 gain screen and had the Epson 4000, BenQ 2550, and TK800. The Epson’s HDR wasn’t bad, but I prefer the HDR implementation on the BenQ’s.

HDR in any projector is going to throw color space standards out the window. The implementation of balancing color space and brightness is manufacture specific and I feel BenQ did a really good job finding this balance and avoiding oversaturated red hotspots which I found in the Epson.

So color space/HDR implementation, Epson 4000<TK800<HT2550

Brightness. With the HDR implementation scoring towards the BenQ on both the HT2550 and TK800, the brightness story is slightly different for people with these 150”+ screens (who 4K was made for!). HDR brightness was slightly better on the Epson compared to the HT2550. But what you trade for brightness with the HT2550, you make up with accurate color and great HDR implementation. The TK800 is where big, bright, HDR shines. The TK800 bests the Epson in HDR brightness, implementation, and is only marginally less color accurate compared to the HT2550.

So HDR brightness for 150”+ screens, HT2550<Epson 4000<TK800

For HDR Brightness:

If I had a 100-120” screen in a light controlled room I go for the HT2550

If I had a 120”+ screen in light controlled room I go for the TK800

If I had a 100”+ screen in ambient lit room I go for TK800

This next gen of projectors may change the above. While I am super excited for the HT3550, I also have my eye on the successor to the TK800.

Between these 3 projectors I just don’t see a scenario where the Epson made sense... for me. It’s too gimped to have the placement flexibility make it work it. Perhaps if I had an anamorphic screen?

We will get a lot more info this next week though! Hooray for competition
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post #274 of 5247 Old 01-04-2019, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mickey79 View Post
I was having a discussion with someone over 4K HDR projectors for my setup and there was an issue about my 150" Screen with 1.0 gain being able to do HDR properly with any of the projectors within my budget. Understanding that I don't have the budget for more expensive projectors, nor currently am I interested in reappropriating part of my projector budget towards a 150" screen with 1.3 gain, essentially I have to look for a projector with the best possible lumens/light output - so my consideration has somewhat changed.

I was suggested Epson for this reason. I already had the Epson vs BenQ discussion a couple pages back here which convinced me to go for BenQ for various reasons, including 8 million pixels, sharper, better 3D, better focus, better 4k and colors. However, we did not cover any issues related to my screen & light requirements for HDR.

So I'm putting this question out again in light of the recent discussions.

For better light output for my 150" 1.0 gain screen, specially for HDR, should I consider Epson (especially if an 18GB HDMI model is announced at CES), or will a BenQ W2700 or W5700 deliver similar light output / performance?

I was pretty set on BenQ and I'm not all that knowledgeable in these matters so I take advice from those in the know, now I'm a little confused.

Thanks guys.

Add: Just a note. Light output was never an issue on this same screen for my Epson 5010. But that was only SDR, not HDR. So I know SDR would not be an issue with any of the projectors on my screen, anything above 1500 lumens I believe. HDR however would be the issue.

One of the forum members, @scottyroo had the HT2550 paired with his 160" screen. He later upgraded to TK800 for higher brightness. You can check out his review on youtube. link below. I do have 2:35 160" silverticket 1.0 screen but i wouldnt be able to tell you how good HT2550 is in HDR mode for another week or so. I'm just waiting for CES 2019 to see if anything better comes out from BenQ. I'm going to be upgrading to HT9060 LED based DLP but for the time being i might use HT2550.



Maybe @scottyroo can offer some assistance here. Also, you didn't mention anything about watching in dark room or with lights on?


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post #275 of 5247 Old 01-04-2019, 02:31 PM
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I can attest, 160" screen and I do a lot of 3D. The TK800 is the best performer even in total darkness.

You'd want the RBGW version of this projector which is what I'm looking for
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post #276 of 5247 Old 01-04-2019, 03:26 PM
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… Credit to @Dave in Green for challenging me on his subject as it forced me to find the correct answer straight from BenQ.
Credit to you for following through and checking with BenQ. It seems that a 7200 rpm RGBRGB color wheel that's rated 2X with pixel shifting has the same resistance to rainbows as a 7200 rpm RGBRGB color wheel that's rated 4X without pixel shifting, which effectively makes it 4X in terms of resisting rainbows. It may be time to ditch the color wheel X speed rating. It was always too fuzzy to be a good engineering term and adding pixel shifting to the mix just makes it more confusing for consumers trying to avoid DLP rainbows.
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post #277 of 5247 Old 01-05-2019, 02:06 AM
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I can attest, 160" screen and I do a lot of 3D. The TK800 is the best performer even in total darkness.

You'd want the RBGW version of this projector which is what I'm looking for
Problems with sbs? I read sbs are quite difficult handled from this pj.
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post #278 of 5247 Old 01-05-2019, 07:46 AM
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Credit to you for following through and checking with BenQ. It seems that a 7200 rpm RGBRGB color wheel that's rated 2X with pixel shifting has the same resistance to rainbows as a 7200 rpm RGBRGB color wheel that's rated 4X without pixel shifting, which effectively makes it 4X in terms of resisting rainbows. It may be time to ditch the color wheel X speed rating. It was always too fuzzy to be a good engineering term and adding pixel shifting to the mix just makes it more confusing for consumers trying to avoid DLP rainbows.
With the pixel shifting it takes more time to cycle colors for each pixel so it makes sense that they have more RBE compared to non pixel shifting projectors that use same spec color wheel. From what i saw, ht2550 had much more RBE than HT3050 and HT2050a.

Thats assuming this is correct information from Sage: "It is a 7200rpm speed RGBRGB color wheel— the same as the wheel you find on their HT2050/3050 which is listed as a 4X/6X. The difference is on the 1080p projectors the 2 sets of RGB are used for the same image while on the 4K projectors (because of the pixel shifting) each set is responsible for DIFFERENT images within the same frame."

And if it is, 2x and 4x label seem like a correct way to inform the CW speed.

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post #279 of 5247 Old 01-05-2019, 08:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Problems with sbs? I read sbs are quite difficult handled from this pj.
Thanks

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The 3D handling should be much improved compared to its predecessor.

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post #280 of 5247 Old 01-05-2019, 09:15 AM
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With the pixel shifting it takes more time to cycle colors for each pixel so it makes sense that they have more RBE compared to non pixel shifting projectors that use same spec color wheel. From what i saw, ht2550 had much more RBE than HT3050 and HT2050a.

Thats assuming this is correct information from Sage: "It is a 7200rpm speed RGBRGB color wheel— the same as the wheel you find on their HT2050/3050 which is listed as a 4X/6X. The difference is on the 1080p projectors the 2 sets of RGB are used for the same image while on the 4K projectors (because of the pixel shifting) each set is responsible for DIFFERENT images within the same frame."

And if it is, 2x and 4x label seem like a correct way to inform the CW speed.
Other than a few comments from a few people, in all the professional reviews and owner opinions I've read I haven't seen a consensus that pixel shifting projectors with 7,200 rpm RGBRGB color wheels are more prone to DLP rainbows than non-pixel shifting models with 7,200 rpm RGBRGB color wheels. I'm going to mention @ProCentral Rob here to get his attention because I think that projectorcentral.com could do a great service by clearing up the confusion on RBE potential changes that XPR might bring to projectors using color wheels with the same number of RGB segments running at the same rpm. This has the potential to make XPR a no-go for those who are sensitive to RBE.
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post #281 of 5247 Old 01-05-2019, 09:44 AM
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Problems with sbs? I read sbs are quite difficult handled from this pj.
Thanks

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I don't know, my only source for 3D is the 3DBR discs, I don't feed it anything else. It handles those fine and I've not had any issues or sync issues using my ZF300 RF glasses..
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post #282 of 5247 Old 01-05-2019, 10:46 AM
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Other than a few comments from a few people, in all the professional reviews and owner opinions I've read I haven't seen a consensus that pixel shifting projectors with 7,200 rpm RGBRGB color wheels are more prone to DLP rainbows than non-pixel shifting models with 7,200 rpm RGBRGB color wheels. I'm going to mention @ProCentral Rob here to get his attention because I think that projectorcentral.com could do a great service by clearing up the confusion on RBE potential changes that XPR might bring to projectors using color wheels with the same number of RGB segments running at the same rpm. This has the potential to make XPR a no-go for those who are sensitive to RBE.
That was my first reaction. I have been using optomas and benq during my projector time.
All of them had 4 or 6x cw speed. The w2000 has 6x speed rgbrgb and I am unable to see RBE. My old optoma had 4x and I could see it If I really was looking for it. 2x speed is unwatchable at 60Hz rbe all over the place

So your thought about XPR projectors producing more pixels with less cw speed could be true.

For example benw2000 rated 6x speed 60hz you have 360Hz in total. With this rate RBE are unlikely to be wisable for thous who are sensitive to RBE

Benq 2700 rated 2x speed 60hz you have in total 120Hz and even if this was calculated different or double due to XPR let say XPR makes the CW spin at 4x speed you still have less frames at totalt of 240 Hz

Now I am not sure how the CW speed is calculated regarding XPR but I would be great if someone would clarify this

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post #283 of 5247 Old 01-05-2019, 10:48 AM
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With the pixel shifting it takes more time to cycle colors for each pixel so it makes sense that they have more RBE compared to non pixel shifting projectors that use same spec color wheel. From what i saw, ht2550 had much more RBE than HT3050 and HT2050a.



Thats assuming this is correct information from Sage: "It is a 7200rpm speed RGBRGB color wheel— the same as the wheel you find on their HT2050/3050 which is listed as a 4X/6X. The difference is on the 1080p projectors the 2 sets of RGB are used for the same image while on the 4K projectors (because of the pixel shifting) each set is responsible for DIFFERENT images within the same frame."



And if it is, 2x and 4x label seem like a correct way to inform the CW speed.


The RGBRGB wheel in the Ht2550 rotates at the exact same speed as the RGBRGB wheel in the HT2050A, HT3050 and HT2150ST: 7200 rpm. My information is straight from a senior manager of their consumer projector division so, yes, it’s accurate.

I think you’re misunderstanding how the tech works. It does not ‘take more time to cycle colors’ with a pixel shifting projector. The wheel is spinning at the exact same speed and has the exact same number of RGB segments. What is different is each mirror on a 4K pixel shifter is responsible for creating 4 pixels instead of on a 1080p projector where each mirror is responsible for creating only one pixel. That means you get less cycles of RGB per pixel but the rotational speed is the exact same. Read my explanation above.

While everyone’s eyes are different, your experience is atypical. I’ve seen few people who are bothered by RBE on the 4K DLPs who weren’t already bothered by RBE on a similar 1080p projector. In fact— I’ve seen the opposite. My sister is very RBE sensitive and even noticed RBE while I was reviewing the 1080p RGBRGB HT1070A over a year back. She has NOT noticed RBE on my current HT2550 which, honestly, surprised me.

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post #284 of 5247 Old 01-05-2019, 11:00 AM
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BenQ 2700 Announced

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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
The RGBRGB wheel in the Ht2550 rotates at the exact same speed as the RGBRGB wheel in the HT2050A, HT3050 and HT2150ST: 7200 rpm. My information is straight from a senior manager of their consumer projector division so, yes, it’s accurate.

I think you’re misunderstanding how the tech works. It does not ‘take more time to cycle colors’ with a pixel shifting projector. The wheel is spinning at the exact same speed and has the exact same number of RGB segments. What is different is each mirror on a 4K pixel shifter is responsible for creating 4 pixels instead of on a 1080p projector where each mirror is responsible for creating only one pixel. That means you get less cycles of RGB per pixel but the rotational speed is the exact same. Read my explanation above.

While everyone’s eyes are different, your experience is atypical. I’ve seen few people who are bothered by RBE on the 4K DLPs who weren’t already bothered by RBE on a similar 1080p projector. In fact— I’ve seen the opposite. My sister is very RBE sensitive and even noticed RBE while I was reviewing the 1080p RGBRGB HT1070A over a year back. She has NOT noticed RBE on my current HT2550 which, honestly, surprised me.


I’m guessing that while the dmd is open and a single color is passing through the light path the dmd remains open during its 4x actuator cycle. For example 4x subframes of red, then 4x subframes of blue, then 4x subframes of green. If this is the case then there would be no difference in rbe.

One thing I did notice on the ht2550 had a kind of strobing flickering. I would see the same thing on plasmas back when they where around. It doesn’t bother me much and I’m pretty sure I’m uniquely sensitive to this. Im guessing it’s just an affect of having such a high refresh rate. I think it’s possible that some people might be confusing this with rbe. Idk I’m not sure.

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post #285 of 5247 Old 01-05-2019, 11:13 AM
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… For example benw2000 rated 6x speed 60hz ...
The BenQ W2000 is rated 4X at 60Hz and 6X at 50Hz. This is yet another area where the X speed rating confuses people.
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post #286 of 5247 Old 01-05-2019, 11:24 AM
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The BenQ W2000 is rated 4X at 60Hz and 6X at 50Hz. This is yet another area where the X speed rating confuses people.
Yes of course my bad.. BenQ W2000 is rated 4X at 60Hz and 6X at 50Hz..

Anyway would be great if someone could tell me if 1080p 6x at 50hz is the same as 2x speed 50hz 4K XPR.
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post #287 of 5247 Old 01-05-2019, 11:53 AM
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I think you’re misunderstanding how the tech works. It does not ‘take more time to cycle colors’ with a pixel shifting projector. The wheel is spinning at the exact same speed and has the exact same number of RGB segments. What is different is each mirror on a 4K pixel shifter is responsible for creating 4 pixels instead of on a 1080p projector where each mirror is responsible for creating only one pixel. That means you get less cycles of RGB per pixel but the rotational speed is the exact same. Read my explanation above.
You are contradicting yourself in this post. If you get less cycles of RGB per pixel, then it is slower and prone to more RBE. It becomes basically a RGB wheel because it skips the other half for each pixel.So a 2x speed, just like BENQ says.
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You are contradicting yourself in this post. If you get less cycles of RGB per pixel, then it is slower and prone to more RBE. It becomes basically a RGB wheel because it skips the other half for each pixel.So a 2x speed, just like BENQ says.
@Perkel so benq 2700 has 2x speed at 60Hz, 120Hz in total ? vs 6x speed at 50Hz, 300Hz in total for the benq w2000 `regardless of XPR


I am just curious if it's worth the jump if the benq2700 will give me RBE disco
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post #289 of 5247 Old 01-05-2019, 12:06 PM
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@Perkel so benq 2700 has 2x speed at 60Hz, 120Hz in total ? vs 6x speed at 50Hz, 300Hz in total for the benq w2000 `regardless of XPR
No, im not saying anything. Just speculating based on information we have. In my experience, i noticed much more rainbow effect on HT2550(4k pixel shifter similar to 2700) versus ht3050. But for all i know it could be because it was brighter with a fresh lamp. I returned it for other reasons, so i didnt get to have much time with it.
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post #290 of 5247 Old 01-05-2019, 02:18 PM
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BenQ 2700 Announced

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That was my first reaction. I have been using optomas and benq during my projector time.

All of them had 4 or 6x cw speed. The w2000 has 6x speed rgbrgb and I am unable to see RBE. My old optoma had 4x and I could see it If I really was looking for it. 2x speed is unwatchable at 60Hz rbe all over the place



So your thought about XPR projectors producing more pixels with less cw speed could be true.



For example benw2000 rated 6x speed 60hz you have 360Hz in total. With this rate RBE are unlikely to be wisable for thous who are sensitive to RBE



Benq 2700 rated 2x speed 60hz you have in total 120Hz and even if this was calculated different or double due to XPR let say XPR makes the CW spin at 4x speed you still have less frames at totalt of 240 Hz



Now I am not sure how the CW speed is calculated regarding XPR but I would be great if someone would clarify this



/P

I am clarifying this!! Apparently no one is paying attention. Lol!

Please, read my above posts.

As for ‘X’ colorwheel speed issue.

Traditionally, 2X/4X refers to the number of RGB cycles or passes for each frame. It is NOT representative of the actual rotational speed of the wheel. DLP color wheels spin at 7200rpm or ‘2X’ with the ‘2X’ meaning you get two full rotations per frame of 60Hz content (60*60*2). Since most projectors have only one set of RGB ‘slices’ on the wheel (along with subtractive color slices or white slices like you find on an RGBCY or RGBW wheels) you are getting one pass of RGB for every rotation of the wheel and two rotations per frame. 2X!

Now, and this is the important part, the wheel on an RGBRGB projector like the popular HT2050A is spinning at the exact same 7200rpm ‘2X’ speed. So why do we call it 4X? Because it has two sets of RGB slices on it’s wheel. 2 sets of RGB multiplied by 2 full rotations per frame = 4X. The RGBRGB wheel is not spinning any faster but you are getting more RGB passes than you would on an RGBW or RGBCY wheel on account of there being twice as many RGB slices.

As I stated REPEATEDLY above, the 4K HT3550 uses a color wheel layout virtually identical to that of the HT2050A above— a 7200rpm RGBRGB color wheel. So why is is only listed as a 2X? Because on the HT3550 each mirror is responsible for creating more than one pixel! That means that while the 1080p HT2050A is using each of it’s RGB passes for that one image frame the HT3550 is using each of it’s RGB passes for each of the different images that will make up one image frame. This is how pixel shifting works— each 1 mirror is responsible for creating 2 or even 4 of the pixels that will eventually make up the entire frame.

And this is where the 4X/2X descriptor starts to get confusing. Because we now have various pixel shifting DLPs we have to determine where we’re going to measure our ‘X’. Are we measuring how many rotations of the wheel per frame? If that’s the case the answer is easy: 2X. Or, are we measuring how many RGB passes per frame? In that case the answer might be 2X or 4X depending on the wheel. Or, are we measuring how many RGB passes per PIXEL?? If we’re measuring at the pixel then we have to consider the wheel and whether pixel shifting is involved and, if so, how many shifts are performed. In these cases the answer could be 4X, 2X or 1X!

You can see why @Dave in Green has some concerns over the use of the ‘X’ measurement system.

Quick side note: 1080p DLPs like the BenQ Ht2050A can display 24Hz movie content natively at a ‘5X’ speed. Basically, 2 and a half rotations for each frame of 24 frame film content (60*48*2.5=7200rpm where 2.5 rotations time 2 RGB Slices per wheel equals 5X— Hope you kept up there). 4K DLPs like the HT2550 and UHD60 cannot display 24Hz content natively. This is due to the fact that they are forced to run at 60Hz because of the need of each mirror to create multiple pixels within each video frame. In the case of the quad shift DLP47 models the DMD is running at 240Hz (4 shifts for every frame of 60Hz content) while the dual shift DLP66 models run at 120Hz (2 shifts for every frame of 60Hz content).
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Color wheel history: The first DLP projector color wheels had one set of RGB segments spinning at 3,600 rpm. When the industry doubled the standard RGB color wheel speed to 7,200 rpm they referred to that as 2X speed or double the original 1X speed. Then they came up with the idea of doubling the number of RGB segments to RGBRGB, which effectively doubled the 7,200 rpm RGB color wheel speed to 4X. In other words they doubled the X speed rating either by doubling the color wheel's rpm or by doubling the number of sets of RGB segments.

The actual speed at which the color wheel is spinning is defined by the revolutions per minute (rpm). The effective color wheel speed in terms of reducing the rainbow effect is defined by rpm combined with the number of sets of RGB segments. So the first instance of doubling color wheel rpm from 3,600 to 7,200 was an actual speed increase while doubling the number of sets of RGB segments from RGBRGB was a virtual speed increase only in terms of the number of times R, G and B segments were flashed per minute. Using the X speed rating to apply to both actual and virtual color wheel speeds is a recipe for confusion.

Now we just need the definitive engineering explanation of how adding XPR pixel shifting affects RBE. If it increases RBE then at least calling a 7,200 rpm RGBRGB color wheel with XPR pixel shifting makes some sense by the old X speed rating. Not only that but it would also make a 7,200 rpm color wheel with XPR pixel shifting and only one set of RGB segments 1X, going back to the original color wheel speed that everyone agreed didn't work well at all. On the other hand if it doesn't increase RBE then the X speed standard is completely broken because people have learned to look for projectors with 4X color wheels to avoid RBE.
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post #292 of 5247 Old 01-05-2019, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by perkele View Post
You are contradicting yourself in this post. If you get less cycles of RGB per pixel, then it is slower and prone to more RBE. It becomes basically a RGB wheel because it skips the other half for each pixel.So a 2x speed, just like BENQ says.


There is no contradiction in my post. You are simply not considering the pixel shift.

Let’s slow this WAY down.

In the 1080p days before pixel shifting we often said a color wheel was ‘high speed’ or, well, not high speed. The truth is, pretty much all colorwheels have been 7200rpm for quite some time. So if all color wheels spin at the same speed how can some be ‘fast’ and others ‘not fast’. This has to do with the compliment and number of segments on the color wheel.

You need a red a green and a blue to produce a full color video image. A 7200rpm colorwheel makes a full 120 rotations every second. If the colorwheel has a single RGB set— even if it has additional subtractive or white slices— it has to complete a full rotation to create one single image on screen. This has traditionally been called 2X because we have TWO full color ‘flashes’ of that image for every frame of a 60Hz video. Now, if we take that same 7200rpm colorwheel and give it TWO sets of RGB— so an RGBRGB— then that means we would get FOUR full color ‘flashes’ for every frame of a 60Hz video. We have traditionally called that 4X. Again, the wheel is spinning at the exact same speed but if you were to stare at just a cross section of the radius of each wheel and count only the number of FULL COLOR images the RGBRGB would appear to be moving twice as fast.

Got that?

Now here’s where it gets tricky and here’s where I’m losing you...
The HT2050A has a 7200rpm RGBRGB color wheel.
The HT2550 has a 7200rpm RGBRGB color wheel.

Both color wheels spin at the exact same speed and both have the exact same number of RGB segments. It is literally IMPOSSIBLE for the HT2550 to be “slower” than the HT2050A. When you count how many RGB passes or ‘flashes’ you would see in each frame of 60Hz video you would count the same four RGB passes on both. The only difference between the two is that on the HT2050A each of those four flashes are the exact same image flashed four times. On the HT2550, however, each of those four flashes is a slightly different image because on the Ht2550 each mirror has to produce four distinct 2 million pixel images. These four distinct images are put together by our eyes/brains (google persistence of image) to form one single 8 million pixel (4K) image. The speed is the EXACT same.

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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
Both color wheels spin at the exact same speed and both have the exact same number of RGB segments. It is literally IMPOSSIBLE for the HT2550 to be “slower” than the HT2050A. When you count how many RGB passes or ‘flashes’ you would see in each frame of 60Hz video you would count the same four RGB passes on both. The only difference between the two is that on the HT2050A each of those four flashes are the exact same image flashed four times. On the HT2550, however, each of those four flashes is a slightly different image because on the Ht2550 each mirror has to produce four distinct 2 million pixel images. These four distinct images are put together by our eyes/brains (google persistence of image) to form one single 8 million pixel (4K) image. The speed is the EXACT same.
This is where you lose yourself. Its actually very possible for HT2550 to be slower and worse for RBE depending how the CW and XPR actually work together.
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I think it would help clear up some of the confusion if we just stopped using terms like faster, slower and X speed ratings as they are all too imprecise to definitively answer the engineering question, which is whether or not adding XPR pixel shifting to a 7,200 rpm RGBRGB color wheel increases the odds of seeing RBE and if so to what degree. The simple answer right now is that we're all just speculating and none of us really knows for sure. No winner, winner, chicken dinner yet.
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
I think it would help clear up some of the confusion if we just stopped using terms like faster, slower and X speed ratings as they are all too imprecise to definitively answer the engineering question, which is whether or not adding XPR pixel shifting to a 7,200 rpm RGBRGB color wheel increases the odds of seeing RBE and if so to what degree. The simple answer right now is that we're all just speculating and none of us really knows for sure. No winner, winner, chicken dinner yet.

Here here!

2x, 4x, 7,200 million.... it’s about perceived RBE. Sage referred to and I have subjectively confirmed that these xpr shifters are equal to, if not better than, their 1080p counterparts when it comes to RBE.

Eye of the beholder...
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My TK800 on 4K has less RBE than my 1080p optoma does and also less RBE than the benq 1080p rgbrgb per my own observations.

And the TK800 has a white slice.

So with all of the speed and X talk and all that other stuff, my eyeball test says not to worry about RBE or "extra" RBE.

It seems to me there are more variables here than JUST the color wheel.

If you are extremely sensitive to it I'd say buy it from any site with a good return policy and see for yourself. Arguing about the academics probably won't get a demonstrable result.
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post #297 of 5247 Old 01-05-2019, 04:43 PM
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This is where you lose yourself. Its actually very possible for HT2550 to be slower and worse for RBE depending how the CW and XPR actually work together.
Did you read any of my FOUR posts or did you just tl:dr and reply with this?

I don't know what else to say. There are reasons why you might see more RBE on one projector than another but in this case it has nothing to do with the color wheel speed. Could have to do with settings (like the use and implementation of brilliant color) or it could be down to differences in the color ramping between the two models.

Let's switch gears. Why don't you explain to me how one 7200rpm RGBRGB colorwheel is 'slower' than another 7200rpm RGBRGB colorwheel? I promise I'll read your post.

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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
I think it would help clear up some of the confusion if we just stopped using terms like faster, slower and X speed ratings as they are all too imprecise to definitively answer the engineering question, which is whether or not adding XPR pixel shifting to a 7,200 rpm RGBRGB color wheel increases the odds of seeing RBE and if so to what degree. The simple answer right now is that we're all just speculating and none of us really knows for sure. No winner, winner, chicken dinner yet.
Actually I was agreeing with you that the 'X' descriptor is a poor way to define performance on these models and I've attempted to explain the actual technical reason why but I think I was too long winded.

And for everyone who doesn't know I was VERY wrong about this subject months back and @Dave in Green and I had a pretty long discussion about it. Dave was 100% right about color wheels being pretty much fixed at 7200rpm these days and the result of that conversation was I did a ton of research and reached out to my contact at BenQ for clarification. Colorwheel speed is not nearly as complicated as we have the tendency to make it out on this forum but it can be very confusing. What makes it even more confusing is the relative lack of info available to the public especially about how pixel shifting actually functions. It doesn't help that I've read several incorrect overviews of this topic from a certain industry pro and popular reviewer who I'll avoid calling out here.

RBE sensitivity is something that is unique to each person. Generally speaking, the faster the cycling of the RGB segments and thus the more complete sub frames you can flash during the image/frame creation the less likely you are to seeing color separation. As I pointed out before, a 4K DLP will need these sub frames to create it's complete 4K image instead of simply flashing the same 1080p image repeatedly. There could possibly be some higher occurrence of RBE due to that but, AGAIN, the relative speed of the color wheel is not the factor here the number of passes before the DMD needs to move on to the next image is. Hell-- when displaying HDR these models can get quite bright and it's usually easier to see RBE on a bright highlight.

In addition there are other factors that people might confuse with RBE. During a hard edit or scene change with a sharp change in brightness it is possible to detect the pixel shift returning from black-- some people complain about a slight flash or flicker. Bix just mentioned this and I believe @dreamer has experienced this as well. In addition, the lamp dimming in these models is, to my eye, much more aggressive than it was on comparable 1080p projectors which could compound the issue.
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Although all the technical info is all very fascinating it seems to my ignorant self that there have not been many complaints about RBE from all the various HT2550 / TK800 owners and it is reasonable to assume (prior to practical testing) that the 2700 being the 'gen 2' model with improvements/enhancements is unlikely to be any worse although other factors such as the dynamic iris might affect other aspects of the generated image?
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post #300 of 5247 Old 01-06-2019, 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
Actually I was agreeing with you that the 'X' descriptor is a poor way to define performance on these models and I've attempted to explain the actual technical reason why but I think I was too long winded.



And for everyone who doesn't know I was VERY wrong about this subject months back and @Dave in Green and I had a pretty long discussion about it. Dave was 100% right about color wheels being pretty much fixed at 7200rpm these days and the result of that conversation was I did a ton of research and reached out to my contact at BenQ for clarification. Colorwheel speed is not nearly as complicated as we have the tendency to make it out on this forum but it can be very confusing. What makes it even more confusing is the relative lack of info available to the public especially about how pixel shifting actually functions. It doesn't help that I've read several incorrect overviews of this topic from a certain industry pro and popular reviewer who I'll avoid calling out here.



RBE sensitivity is something that is unique to each person. Generally speaking, the faster the cycling of the RGB segments and thus the more complete sub frames you can flash during the image/frame creation the less likely you are to seeing color separation. As I pointed out before, a 4K DLP will need these sub frames to create it's complete 4K image instead of simply flashing the same 1080p image repeatedly. There could possibly be some higher occurrence of RBE due to that but, AGAIN, the relative speed of the color wheel is not the factor here the number of passes before the DMD needs to move on to the next image is. Hell-- when displaying HDR these models can get quite bright and it's usually easier to see RBE on a bright highlight.



In addition there are other factors that people might confuse with RBE. During a hard edit or scene change with a sharp change in brightness it is possible to detect the pixel shift returning from black-- some people complain about a slight flash or flicker. Bix just mentioned this and I believe @dreamer has experienced this as well. In addition, the lamp dimming in these models is, to my eye, much more aggressive than it was on comparable 1080p projectors which could compound the issue.


Hi Sage,
I really appreciate you taking the time and effort to research and explain all of this. Do you know or can you ask one of your contacts at BenQ, if all of the 4x pixel shifts happen within each pass of a color segment on the the color wheel? If it does then my conclusion would be that the pixel shifting has no effect on rbe or the projectors effective color wheel speed. It may have other effects that haven’t been labeled yet idk, that’s for another time. I have read your posts, so if I missed this I apologize.
Thanks
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