Hi Sage,
I really appreciate you taking the time and effort to research and explain all of this. Do you know or can you ask one of your contacts at BenQ, if all of the 4x pixel shifts happen within each pass of a color segment on the the color wheel? If it does then my conclusion would be that the pixel shifting has no effect on rbe or the projectors effective color wheel speed. It may have other effects that haven’t been labeled yet idk, that’s for another time. I have read your posts, so if I missed this I apologize.
Thanks

… I’ll ask my contact why they arrived at this particular nomenclature but my guess is it was to be more transparent. We probably never should have started calling RGBRGB color wheels ‘4X’ and instead called them what they are: 2X RGBRGB color wheels. The wheel is 2X because it completes two full rotations during every frame of 60Hz video.

I think it would be helpful for you to explain to your BenQ contact that they are only creating consumer confusion by specifying a 7,200 rpm RGBRGB color wheel with XPR pixel shifting as 2X. Educated consumers have been trained by experience to seek out DLP projectors with minimum 4X color wheel speed for the sole purpose of avoiding rainbows. Specifying XPR models as 2X is telling consumers that those projectors are a step backward by being as likely to cause rainbows as the old 2X 1080p models.



If indeed the current XPR 2X models are no more prone to rainbows than the older 1080p 4X models then my suggestion to BenQ would be to become an industry leader by being the first to ditch the X speed rating for good. Simply change their description to something like "fast 7,200 rpm RGBRGB color wheel for optimum image quality."

… Should we put the shifting discussion to bed until we see this PJ in action?

It's a good idea not to have all the discussion in this thread as it applies to all XPR projectors with color wheels and not just the new BenQ. Maybe if @sage11x gets a good answer from BenQ it would be a good idea to start a new thread specifically about color wheels. I'm also hoping that @ProCentral Rob will take enough interest in this that projectorcentral.com will look into it.

It's a good idea not to have all the discussion in this thread as it applies to all XPR projectors with color wheels and not just the new BenQ. Maybe if @sage11x gets a good answer from BenQ it would be a good idea to start a new thread specifically about color wheels. I'm also hoping that @ProCentral Rob will take enough interest in this that projectorcentral.com will look into it.

@sage11x , remember that the informal X speed rating thing was originally created to show that color wheel speed had been increased 2X from 3,600 to 7,200 rpm. The only reason that it had any meaning in the first place was to inform projector shoppers that the faster color wheel reduced the rainbow effect that was a major issue with 3,600 rpm color wheels. When the number of RGB segments was increased 2X to RGBRGB and the rating doubled again to 4X the only purpose was to further reduce RBE.



The only reason projector companies advertise the X speed rating is to signal to projector shoppers that higher X speed ratings mean less chance of RBE. So the X speed rating is extremely important to anyone sensitive to RBE who relies on that rating to buy projectors with less chance of showing rainbows. Going backward from 4X to 2X is a terrible idea because it implies that there is more chance of seeing rainbows. There's simply no reason to even publish an X speed rating if it doesn't accurately describe a projector's potential for RBE.



Due to all the confusion I think it's certainly worthy of its own thread and will be happy to start that thread once some reliable data is available.

I have a briefing set up with BenQ later this month to get the download on the new models. I’ll try to get some clarity as well.

Here’s something to think about. The BenQ HT2050A is advertised as having a 4X wheel speed for 60Hz video. We both know how they arrive at this: we convert 7200rpm to Hz which is 120Hz divided by the number of frames in the video content (60) multiplied by the set of RGB slices for each full rotation (2) and badabingbadaboom: 4X. So here’s my question: what content do you watch that is 60Hz? While video games run at 60 most everything else you watch is displayed at 30Hz. So why don’t we call it an 8X wheel? After all you’re technically getting 8 passes of RGB per frame of 30Hz content?

Hey I chimed in before when you asked and I’ll chime in again... since you asked

Refresher: I’m in similar spot with my 160” 1.0 gain screen and had the Epson 4000, BenQ 2550, and TK800. The Epson’s HDR wasn’t bad, but I prefer the HDR implementation on the BenQ’s.

HDR in any projector is going to throw color space standards out the window. The implementation of balancing color space and brightness is manufacture specific and I feel BenQ did a really good job finding this balance and avoiding oversaturated red hotspots which I found in the Epson.

So color space/HDR implementation, Epson 4000<TK800<HT2550

Brightness. With the HDR implementation scoring towards the BenQ on both the HT2550 and TK800, the brightness story is slightly different for people with these 150”+ screens (who 4K was made for!). HDR brightness was slightly better on the Epson compared to the HT2550. But what you trade for brightness with the HT2550, you make up with accurate color and great HDR implementation. The TK800 is where big, bright, HDR shines. The TK800 bests the Epson in HDR brightness, implementation, and is only marginally less color accurate compared to the HT2550.

So HDR brightness for 150”+ screens, HT2550<Epson 4000<TK800

For HDR Brightness:

If I had a 100-120” screen in a light controlled room I go for the HT2550

If I had a 120”+ screen in light controlled room I go for the TK800

If I had a 100”+ screen in ambient lit room I go for TK800

This next gen of projectors may change the above. While I am super excited for the HT3550, I also have my eye on the successor to the TK800.

Between these 3 projectors I just don’t see a scenario where the Epson made sense... for me. It’s too gimped to have the placement flexibility make it work it. Perhaps if I had an anamorphic screen?

We will get a lot more info this next week though! Hooray for competition

One of the forum members, @scottyroo had the HT2550 paired with his 160" screen. He later upgraded to TK800 for higher brightness. You can check out his review on youtube. link below. I do have 2:35 160" silverticket 1.0 screen but i wouldnt be able to tell you how good HT2550 is in HDR mode for another week or so. I'm just waiting for CES 2019 to see if anything better comes out from BenQ. I'm going to be upgrading to HT9060 LED based DLP but for the time being i might use HT2550.

Maybe @scottyroo can offer some assistance here. Also, you didn't mention anything about watching in dark room or with lights on?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDAuSeOtFoU

I can attest, 160" screen and I do a lot of 3D. The TK800 is the best performer even in total darkness.

You'd want the RBGW version of this projector which is what I'm looking for

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond back. Quite honestly, this is exactly what I was looking for, an apples-to-apples. Paper and print always tells you one part of the story - I was really hoping to get a response from a 150" (or larger), 1.0 Gain (or lower) screen owner with Epson & BenQ comparison, and you gave me exactly that. Thank you!! This helps my decision and strengthens my direction of acquiring a BenQ.



Waiting for CES to pass & more info on these Projectors.



One question, I believe this particular thread which talks about W2700 (or perhaps the W5700) are successors to HT2550. You mentioned you were looking to the successor of TK800. Is that something on the horizon, and different from the models discussed in this thread?



Thank again for all your input!







I should have mentioned lighting. Projector is never used with lights on or without dark room. The room does tend to get some outside light during daytime but we never use it in those hours, so for all intents and purposes, it's a light-controlled dark room.



Thanks for your response!







Thanks so much - another vote for 150"+! That's great to hear!!



Which one is the RBGW version? I'm not familiar with what that is.



Thanks again.

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond back. Quite honestly, this is exactly what I was looking for, an apples-to-apples. Paper and print always tells you one part of the story - I was really hoping to get a response from a 150" (or larger), 1.0 Gain (or lower) screen owner with Epson & BenQ comparison, and you gave me exactly that. Thank you!! This helps my decision and strengthens my direction of acquiring a BenQ.



Waiting for CES to pass & more info on these Projectors.



One question, I believe this particular thread which talks about W2700 (or perhaps the W5700) are successors to HT2550. You mentioned you were looking to the successor of TK800. Is that something on the horizon, and different from the models discussed in this thread?



Thank again for all your input!







I should have mentioned lighting. Projector is never used with lights on or without dark room. The room does tend to get some outside light during daytime but we never use it in those hours, so for all intents and purposes, it's a light-controlled dark room.



Thanks for your response!







Thanks so much - another vote for 150"+! That's great to hear!!



Which one is the RBGW version? I'm not familiar with what that is.



Thanks again.

Yeah, i dont think this is how it works. If you watch 30hz/fps content and you are using 60hz on the projector, you get exactly as much color information as native 60hz/fps content. You will get 4 passes of color refresh per frame on both cases, the 30fps content just has duplicate frames while every frame in 60fps is unique. Thus the rainbow effect is not affected at all.



If you meant that projector has native 1080p30hz mode then sure it actually might be slightly more effective against RBE if its similar to what 24p mode does. Still very different for what you wrote and calling it 8x wheel wouldnt make sense either because it would get at most 6 passes per frame(duplicated internally). But i dont remember having 1080p30hz as an option on pc at least, so i think 30fps content is watched on the projector using 60hz mode. Makes sense since it wont bring additional judder. But you will NOT get 8 passes of rgb per frame. You will get 4.



Since im now replying to you, YES, i did read all of your comments. I wasnt going to bother replying to them because you were repeating the same points over and over again which contradict your conclusion in my opinion. And that just reminded me how it went with you and Dave regards to CW speeds earlier, in which you lied about confirming that Benq 4x CW's spin at 14400rpm and stated it as a fact for weeks. Dave had to challenge it too many times before you actually got correct information. So i find arguing about this pointless, since you are probably not willing to see my point of view until we actually get more information from people who actually know how this stuff works. Again, im not saying you are wrong or i am right, just that you are too willing to state things as facts on a subject you clearly dont know well enough to do that.

So what is happening when projector manufactures advertise a 6x wheel. My Mitsubishi even has a setting in the menu for 4x or 6x wheel although it is grayed out for many types of input.

Hey, you’re welcome! Happy to help.

I will have to confirm an updated timetable with my BenQ guy, but I would guess that the release cycle will more or less mimic 2018. HT3550 early to mid Q1 and TK800 successor “bright” option early to mid Q2.

The RGBW wheel belongs to the TK800.

The ‘6X wheel’ is only a thing for PAL regions because PAL video runs at 50Hz instead of 60Hz.
If you live in NTSC you are either going to see ‘4X’ for 60Hz or 5X for 48Hz (24fps Blu-ray and 4K Blu-ray).

Again, for the record, 24fps content does not cause the wheel to spin faster. Check my post above to see the math. It’s 5X because you get 2.5 rotations for each frame. This doesn’t apply to any of the 4K pixel shifters because they are locked into a 60Hz refresh and can’t display 24fps natively.

Yes it does. The wheel spins physically faster in 24hz and 50hz mode compared to 60hz. On Benq ht2050 at least.

Where is the announcement on the HT3550? Weird that it still hasn't happened.

Still holding out faint hope that they will announce a 2550a with 1.15 throw and say they've eliminated the humming noise. Then I can put my UHD50 back in a box to Amazon.

Checking in here after a while, getting confused... I thought there was going to be an announcement soon for a 2700 which was going to be a 4k successor to the W1070 with the same throw ratio?

The TK800 will be getting a mild update and a new name: TK800M. It will be the sole entry level 4K from BenQ as the HT2550 is, unfortunately, EOL. The rest of the world will continue on with the W1700 but we won’t have a version here in the states.

Don’t forget the as yet un-named bright version of the HT3550. This will be at the same price as the HT3550 but contain a white slice in it’s color wheel to up the lumens. Expect more information on that model in Q2.

So BenQ will be fielding three 4K models here in the states. The TK800M at the entry level, the HT3550 and a bright version of the HT3550 at the mid price range. No word yet if the recently announced W5700 will find it’s way stateside.