2019 ViewSonic Projectors @ CES 2019 - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 143 Old 04-07-2019, 10:41 AM
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One thing to consider is that all XPR DLP projectors use TI chipsets, and those chipsets are likely the limiting factor for input lag. All that projector companies can do is optimize their firmware to get the minimum lag time the chipset allows. I would think that DLP projector companies have let TI know that they should put a priority on modifying the basic XPR chipsets so that they're capable of lower lag times.
For sure! I'm just looking for good/decent input lag in the 30s-40s. I'd be happy with the Benq 800M but the throw ratio is too damn short. Hoping this Viewsonic can come through!
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post #62 of 143 Old 04-10-2019, 05:20 PM
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Not sure where you guys are getting the 3$K figure from...us that MSRP? Is the 4K much more? Cause this isn’t bad...https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...BI%3A514&smp=Y
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post #63 of 143 Old 04-11-2019, 07:30 AM
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Not sure where you guys are getting the 3$K figure from...us that MSRP? Is the 4K much more? Cause this isn’t bad...https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...BI%3A514&smp=Y
This price bodes well for the LS700-4K. The LS700HD was announced at $2,199. This brings hope for a very good retail price for the LS700-4K. Somewhere sub 3000 would be very welcome.
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post #64 of 143 Old 04-11-2019, 07:34 AM
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Not sure where you guys are getting the 3$K figure from...us that MSRP? Is the 4K much more? Cause this isn’t bad...https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...BI%3A514&smp=Y
This price bodes well for the LS700-4K. The LS700HD was announced at $2,199. This brings hope for a very good retail price for the LS700-4K. Somewhere sub 3000 would be very welcome.
I sure wish they’d get their USTs down in that ballpark...only options in that space are Chinese Xiaomi and Xgimi (sp.) and I’m not ready for that leap of faith.
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post #65 of 143 Old 04-11-2019, 10:02 AM
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I sure wish they’d get their USTs down in that ballpark...only options in that space are Chinese Xiaomi and Xgimi (sp.) and I’m not ready for that leap of faith.
Anyone seen the X10-4K in action? It's out of stock on Viewsonic's store (I don't have enough posts to put in links) for $1720
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post #66 of 143 Old 04-11-2019, 10:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Not sure where you guys are getting the 3$K figure from...us that MSRP? Is the 4K much more? Cause this isn’t bad...https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...BI%3A514&smp=Y
This price bodes well for the LS700-4K. The LS700HD was announced at $2,199. This brings hope for a very good retail price for the LS700-4K. Somewhere sub 3000 would be very welcome.
The MSRP for the LS700-4K is $2500.

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post #67 of 143 Old 04-11-2019, 11:53 AM
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Not sure where you guys are getting the 3$K figure from...us that MSRP? Is the 4K much more? Cause this isn’t bad...https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...BI%3A514&smp=Y
This price bodes well for the LS700-4K. The LS700HD was announced at $2,199. This brings hope for a very good retail price for the LS700-4K. Somewhere sub 3000 would be very welcome.
The MSRP for the LS700-4K is $2500.
Hopefully street price will be around half as with the 700HD...I might upgrade and I previously had no plans to.
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post #68 of 143 Old 04-12-2019, 02:27 PM
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The MSRP for the LS700-4K is $2500.
The ViewSonic site says $3500 MSRP. I was going to ask you where did you get this $2500 MSRP, but ProjectorCentral.com says it's $2,469. Now I'm confused. Confused but excited if that's correct.
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post #69 of 143 Old 04-12-2019, 02:34 PM - Thread Starter
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The MSRP for the LS700-4K is $2500.
The ViewSonic site says $3500 MSRP. I was going to ask you where did you get this $2500 MSRP, but ProjectorCentral.com says it's $2,469. Now I'm confused. Confused but excited if that's correct.
https://www.viewsonic.com/us/ls700-4k.html

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post #70 of 143 Old 04-12-2019, 02:41 PM
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Thank you for this link. I was getting the $3500 MSRP from this announcement page: https://www.viewsonic.com/us/amp/new...ser-projectors

This gets me very excited about this projector. Now I just hope it is good, like an Optoma UHZ65 with 3D support and a much better price.


Edit: there's another amazing info about this projector on the Viewsonic site: it has only 16ms of input lag. That's very impressive, specially compared to other 4K DLP projectors. Here's how it's described:
Quote:
REDUCED INPUT LATENCY
This projector delivers smooth images without delay. Its ultra-low 16ms input latency provides faster frame-by-frame action.
Also it has a throw ratio of 1.13~1.47, which is perfect for me.

If it has good contrast, colors and black levels it will become my dream projector.

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post #71 of 143 Old 04-14-2019, 10:13 AM
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Thank you for this link. I was getting the $3500 MSRP from this announcement page: https://www.viewsonic.com/us/amp/new...ser-projectors

This gets me very excited about this projector. Now I just hope it is good, like an Optoma UHZ65 with 3D support and a much better price.


Edit: there's another amazing info about this projector on the Viewsonic site: it has only 16ms of input lag. That's very impressive, specially compared to other 4K DLP projectors. Here's how it's described:


Also it has a throw ratio of 1.13~1.47, which is perfect for me.

If it has good contrast, colors and black levels it will become my dream projector.
The product pages include exactly matching specs in most regards, including lag (both claim 16ms), and contrast... I'd bet all the good and bad from the above ls700hd review will apply exactly to the ls7004k.

The contrast issue honestly sounds like firmware. I already have a matte black surround on my screen so I'm less concerned about the light bars, but of course the contrast only being so high in a less accurate mode is a bit disappointing so I hope it's something they can fix with an update.
A few years ago I decided my next projector would happen when I got: Lamp free+4k+low lag+decent picture+>=2500lm. For a while I thought that was a unicorn, and honestly thought getting that at anything in decent price range was a few years away.

With that said, I gave up a few months ago and got an hd27hdr as a stopgap, and learned another feature I want: 120hz support. Holy crap 120hz was NICE.
Most of these projectors with high internal refresh rates and hdmi 2.0 inputs have all the physical hardware needed, it's just a matter of supporting it in firmware... I wish projector manufacturers would recognize how amazingly valuable that mode is! Guess it's possible that could be a new feature added to the 4k over hd (since the hd didn't have an Hdmi 2.0 where the 4k does), but I'm not getting my hopes up.

Even without it, I think this one is a slam dunk for me- it even fits my existing location, so the lack of lens shift isn't a problem. And man, that lag!! Assuming Viewsonic isn't lying about the spec (which seems exceedingly unlikely given that the hd matched the claim almost *exactly*), it's really good to hear there's no inherent lag related flaw in current "4k" (1080p+woblin') DMDs.

Side note: I've now found 7 different online retailers that list the ls700-4k, though of course all show it pre-order/out of stock. Pricing between 2100 and 2400 on all of them. So it looks like that's the general ballpark of where it should be, and hopefully that also means shipping is coming up super quick.
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post #72 of 143 Old 04-15-2019, 06:36 AM
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The product pages include exactly matching specs in most regards, including lag (both claim 16ms), and contrast... I'd bet all the good and bad from the above ls700hd review will apply exactly to the ls7004k.

The contrast issue honestly sounds like firmware. I already have a matte black surround on my screen so I'm less concerned about the light bars, but of course the contrast only being so high in a less accurate mode is a bit disappointing so I hope it's something they can fix with an update.
A few years ago I decided my next projector would happen when I got: Lamp free+4k+low lag+decent picture+>=2500lm. For a while I thought that was a unicorn, and honestly thought getting that at anything in decent price range was a few years away.

With that said, I gave up a few months ago and got an hd27hdr as a stopgap, and learned another feature I want: 120hz support. Holy crap 120hz was NICE.
Most of these projectors with high internal refresh rates and hdmi 2.0 inputs have all the physical hardware needed, it's just a matter of supporting it in firmware... I wish projector manufacturers would recognize how amazingly valuable that mode is! Guess it's possible that could be a new feature added to the 4k over hd (since the hd didn't have an Hdmi 2.0 where the 4k does), but I'm not getting my hopes up.

Even without it, I think this one is a slam dunk for me- it even fits my existing location, so the lack of lens shift isn't a problem. And man, that lag!! Assuming Viewsonic isn't lying about the spec (which seems exceedingly unlikely given that the hd matched the claim almost *exactly*), it's really good to hear there's no inherent lag related flaw in current "4k" (1080p+woblin') DMDs.

Side note: I've now found 7 different online retailers that list the ls700-4k, though of course all show it pre-order/out of stock. Pricing between 2100 and 2400 on all of them. So it looks like that's the general ballpark of where it should be, and hopefully that also means shipping is coming up super quick.

I beleive you are right on the bolded, the specs are the same. The color gamut on that review is also worrying.

Hopefully the 4k DMD can change things for better went it comes to contrast and black levels, but I guess it's not reasonable to expect UHZ65 quality levels when this is using the cheaper 4K DMD. Maybe with a more worked firmware the dynamic contrast could be better implemented.
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post #73 of 143 Old 04-16-2019, 09:57 AM
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I heard the 4K model will be released early June. I wish someone had on hand impressions of this unit.
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post #74 of 143 Old 04-16-2019, 05:15 PM
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Revisiting the question of why these wobbly 4k DLP projectors usually have high lag- it's pretty illuminating to dig through all the Ti datasheets.

So we've got 2 DMDs: 0.47" (DLP470TE) and 0.66" (DLP660TE) - (ignoring DLP470TP as it's focused on low-lumen/pico applications)

The differences between the two are interesting:
  • .66" has 2716x1528 mirror resolution, and each mirror wobbles such that each mirror displays 2 pixels (2nd set diagonal 1/2 pixel distance) -- total of 8,300,096 pixels. Interestingly, however, the pixels won't have a direct relationship with source pixels. I had initially thought the mechanism for separation was simply sorting, but for the .66", it can't be.
  • .47" has 1920x1080 mirror resolution, and each mirror wobbles such that each mirror displays 4 pixels in a square layout - total of 8,294,400 pixels. Key thing here though is, it's lower native resolution, but there's a clean ratio of mirror to pixel.

General perspective on this is that the 0.47" is a "lesser" chip compared to the 0.66".... Let's look at the specs:
  • -.66" advantage: higher heat dissipation (thus supports higher lumen)
  • -.47" advantage: clean pixel mapping
  • -.66" advantage: higher contrast - due to increased mirror duty cycle (up to 50% for each wobbled pixel vs. 25% for each wobbled pixel)
  • -.66" advantage: higher native resolution? This is generally believed to give the 0.66" the advantage, but I'm not sure that's being given accurate consideration. Excluding contrast (addressed above), I think the 0.47" actually has the advantage here. For the 0.66, the mapping from source to pixel is not clean at all; where in the 0.47, 4 source pixels map to 1 mirror which wobbles to 4 points and simply displays them, 1 for 1.

Looking back at chip configuration, the reference design Ti data pipeline to get image to dmd is identical for both chips:
  • -Vendor provides input stage, taking whatever inputs and converting them to a standard video signal. Vendor can add their own image processing at this stage if they like.
  • -Prepped image is fed into an FPGA, which splits the image into 2 image streams
  • -Each image stream is fed into a standard DMD Controller chip (reference design calls for DLPC4422)
  • -Each Controller chip converts its data into a bitplane format (and separates into color sequences as needed, etc), which is fed directly into the DMD
  • -DMD displays the image

So if we examine that chain backward from the display:
  • -DMD chip is instant, no substantive lag should come from the DMD just because of the way it works
  • -Controller chip is a potential lag source, but it doesn't have to be. The DLPC4422 chip used in 4k reference designs is actually very fast - For example, it's used in the TIDA-01474 reference design, which achieves 1 frame lag in a 120 application (8.3ms). This application is different because there are 2, but since they run in parallel with distinct portions of the image, they are not likely to be a driver of latency
  • -The major distinction the reference Ti 4k reference design has compared to non-4k designs, is the FPGA. The FPGA in the common reference design is responsible for segregating the source image into two distinct portions which are passed to the controller chip. From a hardware perspective the reference controller design is identical - however, there's actually one key difference: how the separation of pixels is handled. For the .47, you could easily just round-robin (pixel 1 to controller A, pixel 2 to controller B, pixel 3 to controller A, etc), but that's not possible for the .66 - something else is required.

This last bit is a key difference because it would be easy to configure the FPGA to handle a frame as a whole, in any configuration - and I bet that's how reference firmware is set up. The downside with that approach is you can't begin transmitting the frame until it's complete. At 60hz, that means an additional 16.6ms over the existing 16.6ms we get from the controller, putting us in the 33ms range at an absolute minimum; add in 5-15ms for vendor processing and options, and - oh look at that, those are the numbers we're seeing on the market.

But here's the key thing -- The FPGA isn't a Ti-specific part, and a vendor can program it to use whatever algorithm they want - they don't have to use reference. With a 0.66", it would be pretty tough -- I can't see how it would be possible to process the altered pixel mapping without having the full frame, so the lag is pretty locked in. With a simple round-robin algorithm, on the other hand, it can work with effectively zero lag.




Anyway, loooong winded way to say it all, but the point is, I think the "0.66 is better" judgement is a little thin - when you look under the hood at how everything works, the answer is closer to "it depends":
  • -.66" advantage: higher heat dissipation (thus supports higher lumen)
  • -.66" advantage: higher contrast - due to increased mirror duty cycle (up to 50% for each wobbled pixel vs. 25% for each wobbled pixel)
  • -.47" advantage: clean pixel mapping (I'm still listing this as a separate advantage besides lag, since it would likely have a marginal edge in image sharpness)
  • -.47" advantage: likely easier to achieve lag due to simpler pixel sorting algorithm

So all things considered, the .47 is probably a significantly better chip for any sort of gaming projector, and is probably exactly how viewsonic is meeting these crazy low lag values (assuming the claimed performance is accurate), but the .66 will likely be a dramatically better choice for contrast.

And the world would be a better place if they'd replace the DLPC4422 chip in these applications with a single controller configured for this application

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post #75 of 143 Old 04-16-2019, 09:49 PM - Thread Starter
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The LS700-4k is showing in stock on ProjectorPeople.com and its even cheaper. We need a review on this thing.
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post #76 of 143 Old 04-17-2019, 07:17 AM
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The LS700-4k is showing in stock on ProjectorPeople.com and its even cheaper. We need a review on this thing.
I ordered one late last evening when the link went live. The ProjectorPeople called early this morning to confirm the order and it is getting shipped directly from Viewsonic, so should be here early next week she said.

I will post my impressions later next week in this thread, or maybe start an owners club. I dont have any testing equipment except for my own eye's and a blacked out room.
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post #77 of 143 Old 04-17-2019, 07:27 AM
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The LS700-4k is showing in stock on ProjectorPeople.com and its even cheaper. We need a review on this thing.
I ordered one late last evening when the link went live. The ProjectorPeople called early this morning to confirm the order and it is getting shipped directly from Viewsonic, so should be here early next week she said.

I will post my impressions later next week in this thread, or maybe start an owners club. I dont have any testing equipment except for my own eye's and a blacked out room.
So strange, the same company told me yesterday the projector isn't available until June. I'm glad someone is getting one in! Will be very interested to hear your impressions, I'm still in my return window for the Benq 3550.
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post #78 of 143 Old 04-17-2019, 07:33 AM
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I ordered one late last evening when the link went live. The ProjectorPeople called early this morning to confirm the order and it is getting shipped directly from Viewsonic, so should be here early next week she said.

I will post my impressions later next week in this thread, or maybe start an owners club. I dont have any testing equipment except for my own eye's and a blacked out room.
Looking forward to it! I am really curious to know the color space coverage, hoping someone will be able to measure that, unfortunately it won't work for me regardless because of the 0 lens shift, such a bummer since for now I am just looking for a high lumen projector that isn't completely business class and isn't 8k+. Regardless I am still interested in how this model performs!
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So strange, the same company told me yesterday the projector isn't available until June. I'm glad someone is getting one in! Will be very interested to hear your impressions, I'm still in my return window for the Benq 3550.
They just called me again and said early to mid may it will ship, no big deal I guess.

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post #80 of 143 Old 04-17-2019, 12:43 PM
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They just called me again and said early to mid may it will ship, no big deal I guess.
Can't wait to read your impressions on this one. I'm crossing my fingers hoping it will be good.
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post #81 of 143 Old 04-18-2019, 06:25 PM
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Specifications appears somewhat lacking:

1. No HLG.
2. No lens shift.
3. No USB3.
4. No gigabit lan.
5. Only 1xHDMI2.0 port.
6. 3500 lumens, likely RGBW colour wheel.

https://www.viewsonic.com/us/catalog.../ls700-4k.html

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post #82 of 143 Old 04-18-2019, 06:44 PM
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Specifications appears somewhat lacking:

1. No HLG.
2. No lens shift.
3. No USB3.
4. No gigabit lan.
5. Only 1xHDMI2.0 port.
6. 3500 lumens, likely RGBW colour wheel.

https://www.viewsonic.com/us/catalog.../ls700-4k.html
Seriously doubt theyd use a different color wheel than the ls700-hd (note the features between the two are nearly identical). If that assumption proves true, it doesnt have a white segment, and had nearly 2800 lumens left after calibration (though calibration wasnt so great due to an issue with the dynamic contrast limiting the reviewer to the least accurate mode as a baseline).

Other features are still above what I'd expect for a 4k laser at this price, really.
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post #83 of 143 Old 04-20-2019, 10:03 AM
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when you get it, can you measure the input lag.

This may be greater to the Benq 2700.

I don't need lens shift.

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post #84 of 143 Old 04-20-2019, 09:57 PM
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Specs for the X10-4k


SPECIFICATION Projection System: 0.47" 4K-UHD
Native Resolution: 3840x2160
Brightness: 1000 ANSI Lumens
Brightness (LED Lumens) : 2400 LED Lumens
Contrast Ratio: 3000000:1
Display Colour: 1.07 Billion Colours
Light Source Type: LED
Light Source Life (Normal): up to 30000
Lamp Watt: RGBB LED
Lens: F=1.8, f=8.5mm
Projection Offset: 100%+/-5%
Throw Ratio: 0.8
Image Size: 30" - 200"
Throw Distance: 0.5-3.5m (100"@1.77m)
Keystone: +/- 40° (Vertical)
Optical Zoom: Fixed
Audible Noise (Normal): 30dB
Audible Noise (Eco): 28dB
Local Storage: Total 16GB
(12GB available storage)
Input Lag: TBD
Resolution Support: VGA(640 x 480) to
4K(3840 x 2160)
HDTV Compatibility: 480i, 480p, 576i, 576p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p, 2160P
Horizontal Frequency: 30K~97KHz
Vertical Scan Rate: 24~85Hz




So Viewsonic's LED Lumens would appear to be 2.4x ANSI lumens


Brightness: 1000 ANSI Lumens
Brightness (LED Lumens) : 2400 LED Lumens




Do LED projectors rally appear 2.4X brighter... Seems a stretch to me.. disingenuous marketing fluff.
Was hoping the X1000-4K could replace my PX800HD as i wanted more lumens for better ambient light viewing... will wait for real reviews but looking less likely.
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post #85 of 143 Old 04-21-2019, 02:51 AM
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Looks like a pico device.
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post #86 of 143 Old 04-21-2019, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by mikoffski View Post
Specs for the X10-4k


SPECIFICATION Projection System: 0.47" 4K-UHD
Native Resolution: 3840x2160
Brightness: 1000 ANSI Lumens
Brightness (LED Lumens) : 2400 LED Lumens
Contrast Ratio: 3000000:1
Display Colour: 1.07 Billion Colours
Light Source Type: LED
Light Source Life (Normal): up to 30000
Lamp Watt: RGBB LED
Lens: F=1.8, f=8.5mm
Projection Offset: 100%+/-5%
Throw Ratio: 0.8
Image Size: 30" - 200"
Throw Distance: 0.5-3.5m (100"@1.77m)
Keystone: +/- 40° (Vertical)
Optical Zoom: Fixed
Audible Noise (Normal): 30dB
Audible Noise (Eco): 28dB
Local Storage: Total 16GB
(12GB available storage)
Input Lag: TBD
Resolution Support: VGA(640 x 480) to
4K(3840 x 2160)
HDTV Compatibility: 480i, 480p, 576i, 576p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p, 2160P
Horizontal Frequency: 30K~97KHz
Vertical Scan Rate: 24~85Hz




So Viewsonic's LED Lumens would appear to be 2.4x ANSI lumens


Brightness: 1000 ANSI Lumens
Brightness (LED Lumens) : 2400 LED Lumens




Do LED projectors rally appear 2.4X brighter... Seems a stretch to me.. disingenuous marketing fluff.
Was hoping the X1000-4K could replace my PX800HD as i wanted more lumens for better ambient light viewing... will wait for real reviews but looking less likely.


I have the px800hd too. I use a 120” screen in a light controlled living room. In rec709 eco most of the time. According to projector central this is well below 800 lumens. So if 1,000 LED lumens is true, the x1000 should be substantially brighter. Agree, not 2.5x brighter but still brighter.
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post #87 of 143 Old 04-21-2019, 02:48 PM
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LS700 4k, looking for input lag test

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post #88 of 143 Old 04-21-2019, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikoffski View Post
… Do LED projectors rally appear 2.4X brighter... Seems a stretch to me.. disingenuous marketing fluff. ...
2.4X is a major exaggeration. 3LED projectors appear slightly brighter than measured lumens due to the Helmholtz–Kohlrausch (HK) effect that makes more saturated colors appear to the human eye to have increased luminance. But maximum perceived increased luminance is more in the 24% range than 240%.
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post #89 of 143 Old 04-23-2019, 09:24 AM
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Did anyone get the ls700 4k yet?

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post #90 of 143 Old 04-23-2019, 09:41 AM
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Did anyone get the ls700 4k yet?

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No. Most current feedback is that it will ship in June (though some have said May). So minimum a week or two, most likely more like ~1.5 months.
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