Epson Files Lawsuit Tackling False Lumens Claims for RCA Branded Projectors - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 57 Old 03-30-2019, 05:47 AM
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To HELL YOU SAY.. You mean companies fudge specs? NO WAY lol

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post #32 of 57 Old 03-30-2019, 03:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by oztheatre View Post
Yet epson make claims of 3 million to 1 contrast ratios.. they should sue themselves perhaps
Exactly. Epson makes inflated contrast claims, continues to offer projectors with no sealed light path, and have flawed designs with power supplies issues. They should not throw stones from a glass house.
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post #33 of 57 Old 03-30-2019, 03:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RadiantHT View Post
Exactly. Epson makes inflated contrast claims, continues to offer projectors with no sealed light path, and have flawed designs with power supplies issues. They should not throw stones from a glass house.
Lol, you go buy an RCA for your next projector then, if you think there's any equivalence! You just saved a bunch of money. Enjoy your toy projector, ROFL.
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post #34 of 57 Old 03-30-2019, 03:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Lol, you go buy an RCA for your next projector then, if you think there's any equivalence! You just saved a bunch of money. Enjoy your toy projector, ROFL.
I don't know anyone who is unintelligent enough to consider low end electronics such as what you have posted in this thread. So Epson's lawsuit means nothing to me. If you know somebody who does, good luck to you on that.

Now back to enjoying Epson's one million to one contrast ratio which they claim for the 5040 on their website. Haha, haha, haha, LMFAO.

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post #35 of 57 Old 03-30-2019, 03:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RadiantHT View Post
I don't know anyone who is unintelligent enough to consider low end electronics such as what you have posted in this thread. So Epson's lawsuit means nothing to me. If you know somebody who does, good luck to you on that.

Now back to enjoying Epson's three million to one contrast ratio.
You got some big chip on your shoulder against Epson? Please, tell the world!

Hey you are the one equating Epson to these projectors, not me.

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post #36 of 57 Old 03-30-2019, 03:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
You got some big chip on your shoulder against Epson? Please, tell the world!

Hey you are the one equating Epson to these projectors, not me.

Epson clearly list the 5040 contrast ratio as 1 million to one on their website. Don't take my word for it, go check it out. I don't have anything personal against Epson. All manufacturers lie. I'm only saying Epson should not throw stones from a glass house.
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post #37 of 57 Old 03-30-2019, 03:46 PM
 
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https://epson.com/For-Home/Projector...R/p/V11H713020


"Get exceptional, color-rich performance and immersive images with the Home Cinema 5040UB. Epson® PRO-UHD™ 3LCD home theater projectors deliver a groundbreaking combination of color, contrast and resolution for the ultimate entertainment experience. Every detail comes alive with 4K Enhancement Technology1, which accepts 4K UHD content and upscales non-4K content. An advanced, 3-Chip, 3LCD design means no color wheel, white segment or rainbow effect. With HDR102 and L*a*b* Ultra Wide Color Gamut, movies look extraordinary. Plus, get 100% Balanced Color Brightness, with 2,500 lumens equal color/white brightness4, and an UltraBlack™ contrast ratio up to 1,000,000:1."
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post #38 of 57 Old 03-30-2019, 03:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RadiantHT View Post
Epson clearly list the 5040 contrast ratio as 1 million to one on their website. Don't take my word for it, go check it out. I don't have anything personal against Epson. All manufacturers lie. I'm only saying Epson should not throw stones from a glass house.
All manufacturers list dynamic contrast ratios, which is commonly understood is a great big number that has nothing to do with ANSI contrast. But it's also applied fairly consistently by manufacturers so as you rightly point out you see similarly large numbers from Sony and JVC etc.

I do not see the equivalence. I don't see the hypocrisy here. The lumens claim is far more fundamental and is out of whack compared to what's listed by the other projector makers. The very fact Epson already pocketed $5 million from a similar lawsuit also shows it's no waste of time and that there's sympathy for its claims.

If Epson can prove the performance of RCA projectors is as bad as it claims, more power to it IMO.
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post #39 of 57 Old 03-31-2019, 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted by AV_Integrated View Post
I still want to play with all these cheap LED models, especially from the more reputable Pico manufacturers.
try this Icodis M200, a literal palm projector


or any of these which I think AliX**** has them
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-di...-pj-china.html

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post #40 of 57 Old 03-31-2019, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

If Epson can prove the performance of RCA projectors is as bad as it claims, more power to it IMO.
I hope Epson wins. The legal precedence should deter this type of performance fabrication for projectors.
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post #41 of 57 Old 03-31-2019, 03:36 PM
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Epson Files Lawsuit Tackling False Lumens Claims

Thats like the pot calling the kettle black

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post #42 of 57 Old 03-31-2019, 04:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kingwiggi View Post
Epson Files Lawsuit Tackling False Lumens Claims

Thats like the pot calling the kettle black
No it isn't, but if posting snarky yet incorrect comments make you happy, there's always Facebook.

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^^^


So Epson doesn't have a long history of overstating their Lumens.

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post #44 of 57 Old 03-31-2019, 04:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kingwiggi View Post
^^^

So Epson doesn't have a long history of overstating their Lumens.
Are you going to waste time making a false equivalence argument? Another great use for Facebook, I highly recommend it!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

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^^^

Nope, not going to facebook to like your page no-matter how many times you keep dropping hints.


I liked both the 9500UB & 6020UB when I owned them, though IMHO they did not live up-to their stated specs.

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post #46 of 57 Old 03-31-2019, 05:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kingwiggi View Post
Epson Files Lawsuit Tackling False Lumens Claims

Thats like the pot calling the kettle black
Exactly. Like most manufacturers, Epson gives inflated specs for their projectors. Which is always based on unusable, horrible color accuracy dynamic mode. They also give bloated contrast ratings such as a million to one without stating it is dynamic. They simply state contrast is 1 million to one.
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post #47 of 57 Old 03-31-2019, 05:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RadiantHT View Post
Exactly. Like most manufacturers, Epson gives inflated specs for their projectors. Which is always based on unusable, horrible color accuracy dynamic mode. They also give bloated contrast ratings such as a million to one without stating it is dynamic. They simply state contrast is 1 million to one.
I guess that wikipedia link must not be working. Back to drinking beer for me.

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Today I got a "pleasure" to checkout a whopping 5500 lumens led native 1080p projector from Aliexpress (Vivicine M18) which in the same price range as RCA ones. Of course it's no where that bright, but it was decent brightness. They did list though "400 ANSI lumens" which is more believable. I would never buy something like this even if it was $50, but the person who got it was pretty happy with the results.

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Epson Files Lawsuit Tackling False Lumens Claims for RCA Branded Projectors

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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I guess that wikipedia link must not be working. Back to drinking beer for me.


I think your right it is a false equivalence. I expect cheap $100 toys from disreputable brands to be misleading. It’s much worse when reputable brands charging thousands of dollars mislead. Imo
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post #50 of 57 Old 03-31-2019, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
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I think your right it is a false equivalence. I expect cheap $100 toys from disreputable brands to be misleading. It’s much worse when reputable brands charging thousands of dollars mislead. Imo
I'm having a stout right now, it's delicious. I can lament that manufacturers don't publish ANSI contrast and Movie Mode peak luminance as headline specifications. That applies to TVs and projectors. Do you wish to commiserate?

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post #51 of 57 Old 04-01-2019, 06:19 AM
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Epson is very careful to use two small words in front of their 1,000,000:1 claim “Up To”.

As soon as I read that wording in any advertisement I totally disregard all claims. How many times have you seen use this product and cut your whatever that are selling UP TO 90%.

These specs are full of invented buzzwords Epson has a trademark on the word UltraBlack. They invented 100% Balanced Color Brightness whatever that is. No one should seriously conceder any projectors specs based on an advertisement but as @bix26 pointed out one is clearly a toy projector compared to a real serious attempt at building something for a home theater.

I find them waging war on a toy company as a little trivial even if it is paying off for them, but that’s the world we live in.

I’m an avid bicycle enthusiast and in the bike forums they call Wal-Mart bikes (Bicycle shaped objects) Major Bicycle manufactures are not fighting Wal-Mart in court over selling a $100 bike with the same specs as a $ 1,000 bike. Because everyone knows the difference. Although you can get on any Wal-Mart bike and ride along your bike path and get some exercise. One is a toy and one is a serious machine.

The big question I ask myself is why is Epson the only one fighting this issue TI should get in on the act Sony, JVC, BenQ, Viewsonic. They should all get a piece of the pie and drive the toy maker out of business. If a parent wants an $80 projector for their kid to play with they should have to buy them something around 800 bucks.

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post #52 of 57 Old 04-01-2019, 08:53 AM
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Again, there are plenty of credible real world measurements out there that show Epson projectors consistently meet or exceed their published specs for maximum lumens while most of the cheap toy LED projector companies grossly exaggerate their maximum lumen specs. Until you get up into more expensive, higher end projectors the maximum lumen settings on most projectors are not very color accurate. However, maximum lumen settings are primarily designed for use in ambient light which skews image colors anyway. For example, here's what projectorcentral.com had to say when they measured the Epson Home Cinema 1440:

Quote:
The whole point of the HC1440 is getting the brightest HD picture possible for the money. The projector is rated at a maximum of 4400 lumens, and on our test sample the brightest preset, Dynamic, measures 4350 lumens, essentially on target. Meanwhile, the two Cinema modes which have a more neutral color balance measure about 2800 lumens. The Dynamic mode has a somewhat greenish bias, although not severe or objectionable. The big question is whether you'd want to give up 1/3 of your total light potential to get more accurate color?

The answer for most users will be "no way." This is a Super Bowl party projector, intended for big screen use in ambient light. You are buying it because you want 4000+ lumens. Even at its default settings, the HC1440's Dynamic mode delivers an engaging and exciting picture. Despite what a professional would describe as a greenish bias, nobody at a party would think the picture looks green, or notice any color biases in the image at all--for the most part colors look perfectly natural. A low-saturation light blue sky may appear bluish-green, but saturated colors all look solid and accurate.

However, there is an easy way to improve the picture quality without bothering with a professional calibration. In the onscreen menu, go to Image/Advanced/RGB and drop Offset G from 0 to -1. Believe it or not, this tiny adjustment takes out a noticeable amount of the green, improves color saturation and contrast, and renders better flesh tones. Meanwhile it reduces lumen output by only 3%, so you still end up netting out 4200+ lumens. This is the way I would run this projector at my own Super Bowl party.
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post #53 of 57 Old 04-01-2019, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by hk2000 View Post
I'm not familiar with these projectors, are they direct competitors to Epson's?
No, quite a different group of purchasers. Basically, Epson is trying to get people to have some truth in their advertising of these numbers. Epson's numbers are very close to what is measured, with the measured numbers often being higher than their advertised ones. Everyone should be like that for things sold in the US, since it is illegal to lie about them.

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Epson Files Lawsuit Tackling False Lumens Claims for RCA Branded Projectors

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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
Again, there are plenty of credible real world measurements out there that show Epson projectors consistently meet or exceed their published specs for maximum lumens while most of the cheap toy LED projector companies grossly exaggerate their maximum lumen specs. Until you get up into more expensive, higher end projectors the maximum lumen settings on most projectors are not very color accurate. However, maximum lumen settings are primarily designed for use in ambient light which skews image colors anyway. For example, here's what projectorcentral.com had to say when they measured the Epson Home Cinema 1440:


I commend them for being honest with their lumens specs. Then again, brightness is their strong suit. Unfortunately the honesty stops there. Their contrast specs are over blown for both dynamic and native spec no matter what setting is used. I’m aware this is true for almost all manufacturers, this is why I find this lawsuit strange. Personally I’d like to see some kind of standardized testing for all specs, Brightness, contrast, input lag, native response time and color gamut. I won’t hold my breath though

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post #55 of 57 Old 04-01-2019, 05:56 PM
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Most everyone on this forum is well aware that almost every manufacturer's contrast specs are greatly exaggerated over what can realistically be achieved in native contrast. While many reputable projector companies stretch maximum lumen specs a little it's nowhere near the extent that contrast is. Only fringe projector companies advertise ridiculously exaggerated lumen numbers. From a marketing point of view the vast majority of average projector buyers focus much more on brightness than contrast, so exaggerating lumens sells a lot more projectors than exaggerating contrast numbers. For less experienced folks shopping for a bright projector why wouldn't they be tempted to buy one of these no-name models that advertise the same or greater brightness than name brand models at a fraction of the cost? Epson is doing a service to all legitimate projector companies and to all less educated projector buyers by filing this lawsuit.
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post #56 of 57 Old 04-02-2019, 07:38 AM
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Caveat Emptor / Buyer Beware.

Is every bit as true today as it ever was. Today people have instant access to more information than ever in the history of man making purchases. This forum is one such resource.

I actually believe people sometimes want these specs overblown. I have seen so many times people showing me something they just bought and being totally in love with the specs over performance.

In terms of projectors right now people are in love with knowing a projector is labeled HDR and 4k.

If you have good enough lawyers and you can make more on these lawsuits than you pay your lawyers why not.

To be honest I don’t know why the makers of the RCA projector even posted lumen specs. They should say a nice bright image up to 100” and then showed a photo shopped picture or a computer generated movie showing how perfect an image can be shown in a bright white room with walls of windows and a white wall as a screen. no misleading specs then.

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To be honest I don’t know why the makers of the RCA projector even posted lumen specs.
For each product there is always has to be some important numbers that will stand out the most to attract the buyer and without them sales will suffer. Even Joe the plumber knows to buy projectors only with 3000 or more lumens.

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