THE Epson 5050UB/6050UB Thread (No Price Talk) - Page 183 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5461 of 5991 Old 02-13-2020, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biglen View Post
What do you mean by no manual iris dial-down?
The iris can be controlled two different ways.

Auto iris is a setting that allows the projector to vary the iris setting automatically based on the maximum brightness of a frame / scene.

Manual iris is a setting where you can manually partially close the iris. Sometimes called manual iris dial-down because you are manually dialing down the light in case the lamp mode (generally lamp mode Eco) is still too bright. I love brightness and will never manually dial-down the iris.

You can use both at the same time, in which case the manual setting controls the maximum the automatic iris function will open the iris too.

Hope that helps.

-J.C.

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post #5462 of 5991 Old 02-13-2020, 02:11 PM
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I can't discuss street pricing, but yes the NX5 can be had for about that premium over the 6050.
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post #5463 of 5991 Old 02-13-2020, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by jch2 View Post
The iris can be controlled two different ways.

Auto iris is a setting that allows the projector to vary the iris setting automatically based on the maximum brightness of a frame / scene.

Manual iris is a setting where you can manually partially close the iris. Sometimes called manual iris dial-down because you are manually dialing down the light in case the lamp mode (generally lamp mode Eco) is still too bright. I love brightness and will never manually dial-down the iris.

You can use both at the same time, in which case the manual setting controls the maximum the automatic iris function will open the iris too.

Hope that helps.

-J.C.
I emailed the guy who calibrated my 5050. He said he leaves the Auto Iris off when he does calibrations, because it messes up the gamma.

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post #5464 of 5991 Old 02-13-2020, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biglen View Post
I emailed the guy who calibrated my 5050. He said he leaves the Auto Iris off when he does calibrations, because it messes up the gamma.
It can, to some degree, mess with the gamma, since the projector will vary how dark the LCD screens get based upon the current value of the iris. It keeps the two in-sync but it isn't perfect. There will be slight variations in gamma with it on. The best way is to actually calibrate with the auto iris on, that way, for whichever of the each 8 steps of gray level (varying brightness, with 8 being brightest and will have the iris wide open, and 1 being darkest, which will have the iris mostly closed) you are calibrating for, you will be able to set the gray level appropriately. But even then, it won't be perfect, but close.

Basically, it works like this: the LCD has a 10-bit precision (or possibly 8-bit with 10-bit dithering, hard to know these days what's actually in an LCD), so it can display 1024 levels of gray for each pixel, where 1023 is the maximum brightness and 0 is the minimum brightness.

With auto-iris off, the projector will attempt to produce the proper level brightness through using the LCD only. So, to produce an image with a maximum brightness of 50%, the LCD can only use half it's range, 0-511, and the black levels will be elevated. And you are stuck with the limits of the LCD panel's native contrast ability. A fully closed LCD pixel actually still lets a lot of light pass through, making blacks more gray.

With auto-iris on, the projector will attempt to produce the proper gray level brightness through changing the iris setting and varying the values of the pixels that are in the LCD. So, to reproduce an image with maximum of 50% brightness, instead of using the LCD screen between 0-511 (50% of the range of the LCD, leading to lost detail) the iris will close down automatically to let 50% of the light through and give you 1024 levels of gray from the LCD between black and 50% gray, giving you better detail. It really starts to matter in very dark scenes, like peak of 20% of maximum brightness, where instead of having only 205 shades of color available with a very elevated black floor, you can get 1024 shades available and the black floor will be much better. Episodes like the finale of Game of Thrones, which were so dark, all the details are lost except on the best of TVs (like OLEDs) or projectors with automatic irises, that reproduce a good black floor and can reproduce a lot of detail with the dark scene. My Epson 6050UB is so much better in dark scenes with it's auto-iris ability than the projector it replaced, a Panasonic PT-AE8000U that had only an 8-bit LCD panel and no iris.

So, you can turn it back on after calibration anyway. With auto iris on the picture quality loss because of lost gamma accuracy is more than made up for by much better blacks and much better shadow detail. To can always turn it on and see for yourself. If you don't like it, you can always turn it back off.

Main: Marantz AV8805, 5x Behringer NX4-6000, Epson 6050UB, Stewart Greyhawk 120", LG C8 65", DISH H3, Panasonic UB820, ATV4k, FTV4k, 7.2.6+2: DefTech BP2000, CLR2000, Di 5.5BPS, UIW BPZ/A, Di 8R, M&K MX-125. Bedroom: Yamaha RX-A3070, LG E8 55", DISH 4k Joey, FTV4k, 5.1.4: DT RCS II, RSS II, IW Sub Ref. Basement: Yamaha RX-A3040, 3x Marantz MA700U, Panasonic PT-AE8000U, Panasonic P65VT50, 6.1: DT BP2000, CLR2000, Di 6.5R
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post #5465 of 5991 Old 02-13-2020, 02:57 PM
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Generally speaking, jch2’s comments/assessment is on the money. However, I’ll add one caveat: Enforcement of this rule/guideline is sometimes inconsistent. It can and does vary from thread to thread and moderator to moderator. It’s best to observe the guidelines as they were meant to be.
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post #5466 of 5991 Old 02-13-2020, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jch2 View Post
It can, to some degree, mess with the gamma, since the projector will vary how dark the LCD screens get based upon the current value of the iris. It keeps the two in-sync but it isn't perfect. There will be slight variations in gamma with it on. The best way is to actually calibrate with the auto iris on, that way, for whichever of the each 8 steps of gray level (varying brightness, with 8 being brightest and will have the iris wide open, and 1 being darkest, which will have the iris mostly closed) you are calibrating for, you will be able to set the gray level appropriately. But even then, it won't be perfect, but close.

Basically, it works like this: the LCD has a 10-bit precision (or possibly 8-bit with 10-bit dithering, hard to know these days what's actually in an LCD), so it can display 1024 levels of gray for each pixel, where 1023 is the maximum brightness and 0 is the minimum brightness.

With auto-iris off, the projector will attempt to produce the proper level brightness through using the LCD only. So, to produce an image with a maximum brightness of 50%, the LCD can only use half it's range, 0-511, and the black levels will be elevated. And you are stuck with the limits of the LCD panel's native contrast ability. A fully closed LCD pixel actually still lets a lot of light pass through, making blacks more gray.

With auto-iris on, the projector will attempt to produce the proper gray level brightness through changing the iris setting and varying the values of the pixels that are in the LCD. So, to reproduce an image with maximum of 50% brightness, instead of using the LCD screen between 0-511 (50% of the range of the LCD, leading to lost detail) the iris will close down automatically to let 50% of the light through and give you 1024 levels of gray from the LCD between black and 50% gray, giving you better detail. It really starts to matter in very dark scenes, like peak of 20% of maximum brightness, where instead of having only 205 shades of color available with a very elevated black floor, you can get 1024 shades available and the black floor will be much better. Episodes like the finale of Game of Thrones, which were so dark, all the details are lost except on the best of TVs (like OLEDs) or projectors with automatic irises, that reproduce a good black floor and can reproduce a lot of detail with the dark scene. My Epson 6050UB is so much better in dark scenes with it's auto-iris ability than the projector it replaced, a Panasonic PT-AE8000U that had only an 8-bit LCD panel and no iris.

So, you can turn it back on after calibration anyway. With auto iris on the picture quality loss because of lost gamma accuracy is more than made up for by much better blacks and much better shadow detail. To can always turn it on and see for yourself. If you don't like it, you can always turn it back off.
I just tried turning it on. I don't see any difference when I turn it on. Should it be a noticable difference, or just very subtle?

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post #5467 of 5991 Old 02-13-2020, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by biglen View Post
I just tried turning it on. I don't see any difference when I turn it on. Should it be a noticeable difference, or just very subtle?
On normal viewing and bright scenes, you shouldn't notice anything different: the auto-iris will be dialed wide open and produce exactly the same picture that you had your unit calibrated for.

Where you will start to see a very big difference is in dark scenes. So, try out your favorite content with very dark scenes with and without high-speed auto-iris and see if you notice a difference in black levels and shadow detail. Viewing in a room as dark as you can get helps with being able to resolve actual black levels and shadow detail, so make sure your room is as dark as you can get it.

If you don't see any difference in dark scenes, it is possible your manual iris is already dialed-down a bit, the auto-iris may have too limited range to work with. So, check that your manual iris setting is set to zero (instead of some negative number).

Post back and share your results.

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post #5468 of 5991 Old 02-13-2020, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jch2 View Post
On normal viewing and bright scenes, you shouldn't notice anything different: the auto-iris will be dialed wide open and produce exactly the same picture that you had your unit calibrated for.



Where you will start to see a very big difference is in dark scenes. So, try out your favorite content with very dark scenes with and without high-speed auto-iris and see if you notice a difference in black levels and shadow detail. Viewing in a room as dark as you can get helps with being able to resolve actual black levels and shadow detail, so make sure your room is as dark as you can get it.



If you don't see any difference in dark scenes, it is possible your manual iris is already dialed-down a bit, the auto-iris may have too limited range to work with. So, check that your manual iris setting is set to zero (instead of some negative number).



Post back and share your results.
Any suggestions for a dark scene in a movie? My movie room is pitch black, with no windows, so hopefully I'll see the Iris do its thing.

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post #5469 of 5991 Old 02-13-2020, 03:36 PM
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Here's a question strictly out of curiosity. JVC released the N series of projectors without Dynamic Toning Mapping. They then were able to add it with a simple firmware update. I would imagine that the circuit boards they had installed at the time of release were not exceptionally elaborate because it would seem that if they had anticipated the DTM upgrade required major upgrading in circuit boards they would have installed those at the time of release. And if they had, why didn't they install DTM at the time ( maybe it wasn't perfected yet?). My point being that if it doesn't require an apparatus of complex, expensive circuitry, why can't Epson release a small Darbee-like device that the HDMI signal comes through that has DTM capabilities? I think most of us Epson owners would pay even a few hundreds dollars for DTM on the quality of the JVC's. The circuitry and firmware code can't be that complex or expensive to reproduce, can it? I mean, I know it's not going to be on the level of the Envy or even HTPC or Lumagen, but might be better than Panasonic 820 or Epson's built in static tone mapping. I am ignorant of the details of what this would require, but is there any sense in what I'm proposing? What does the brains trust think?
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post #5470 of 5991 Old 02-13-2020, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biglen View Post
Any suggestions for a dark scene in a movie? My movie room is pitch black, with no windows, so hopefully I'll see the Iris do its thing.
With a pitch black room you are in the perfect setting to evaluate black levels and shadow detail. That's great news!

Game of Thrones (HBO) S8E5 "The Bells" is the ultimate stress test of black levels and shadow detail for any TV or projector. If your TV is average (like most viewers of the episode had), you'll see a gray screen with almost no detail. It was a mess, there are posts all over the internet with complaints about it being too dark. However, watch it on an OLED or a projector with an auto iris, and you'll see the episode the way it was intended, dark, with lots of detail.

I also like Amazon's 4k HDR version of the Expanse, Season 4. Any of the space scenes with a black starfield background and ships really show off the difference of good black levels. Does space look grey to you, or black? Auto-iris will close way down and will help make it look black, and then when it switches to a bright sunny planetside surface scene, the iris will pop back wide open and you'll be blinded by the bright picture from the surface of a planet. It's pretty incredible actually.

There are a ton of movies and content with dark scenes that the Epson 5050UB/6050UB projectors excel at (remember, UB is ultra-black, and blacks and dark scenes is where these models excel over the competition). Hopefully the community here can post more recommendations for their favorite dark scenes where the Epson projectors really do a good job.

Main: Marantz AV8805, 5x Behringer NX4-6000, Epson 6050UB, Stewart Greyhawk 120", LG C8 65", DISH H3, Panasonic UB820, ATV4k, FTV4k, 7.2.6+2: DefTech BP2000, CLR2000, Di 5.5BPS, UIW BPZ/A, Di 8R, M&K MX-125. Bedroom: Yamaha RX-A3070, LG E8 55", DISH 4k Joey, FTV4k, 5.1.4: DT RCS II, RSS II, IW Sub Ref. Basement: Yamaha RX-A3040, 3x Marantz MA700U, Panasonic PT-AE8000U, Panasonic P65VT50, 6.1: DT BP2000, CLR2000, Di 6.5R
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post #5471 of 5991 Old 02-13-2020, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jch2 View Post
With a pitch black room you are in the perfect setting to evaluate black levels and shadow detail. That's great news!



Game of Thrones (HBO) S8E5 "The Bells" is the ultimate stress test of black levels and shadow detail for any TV or projector. If your TV is average (like most viewers of the episode had), you'll see a gray screen with almost no detail. It was a mess, there are posts all over the internet with complaints about it being too dark. However, watch it on an OLED or a projector with an auto iris, and you'll see the episode the way it was intended, dark, with lots of detail.



I also like Amazon's 4k HDR version of the Expanse, Season 4. Any of the space scenes with a black starfield background and ships really show off the difference of good black levels. Does space look grey to you, or black? Auto-iris will close way down and will help make it look black, and then when it switches to a bright sunny planetside surface scene, the iris will pop back wide open and you'll be blinded by the bright picture from the surface of a planet. It's pretty incredible actually.



There are a ton of movies and content with dark scenes that the Epson 5050UB/6050UB projectors excel at (remember, UB is ultra-black, and blacks and dark scenes is where these models excel over the competition). Hopefully the community here can post more recommendations for their favorite dark scenes where the Epson projectors really do a good job.
Okay, I have S08E05 4K HDR. Do you remember which scene was causing people problems?

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post #5472 of 5991 Old 02-13-2020, 06:43 PM
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@ShadowBoy , my understanding is that JVC had to eliminate a feature to free up processing power to accommodate DTM. The question is whether or not the Epson 5050/6050 units have the horsepower available to perform DTM and if Epson has the desire to develop their own or license someone's DTM to implement.

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post #5473 of 5991 Old 02-13-2020, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biglen View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jch2 View Post
Game of Thrones (HBO) S8E5 "The Bells" is the ultimate stress test of black levels and shadow detail for any TV or projector. If your TV is average (like most viewers of the episode had), you'll see a gray screen with almost no detail. It was a mess, there are posts all over the internet with complaints about it being too dark. However, watch it on an OLED or a projector with an auto iris, and you'll see the episode the way it was intended, dark, with lots of detail.
Okay, I have S08E05 4K HDR. Do you remember which scene was causing people problems?
It's pretty much the whole episode. But try watching the final battle scenes, including where the Dothraki horsemen ride off to battle with their swords on fire.

Main: Marantz AV8805, 5x Behringer NX4-6000, Epson 6050UB, Stewart Greyhawk 120", LG C8 65", DISH H3, Panasonic UB820, ATV4k, FTV4k, 7.2.6+2: DefTech BP2000, CLR2000, Di 5.5BPS, UIW BPZ/A, Di 8R, M&K MX-125. Bedroom: Yamaha RX-A3070, LG E8 55", DISH 4k Joey, FTV4k, 5.1.4: DT RCS II, RSS II, IW Sub Ref. Basement: Yamaha RX-A3040, 3x Marantz MA700U, Panasonic PT-AE8000U, Panasonic P65VT50, 6.1: DT BP2000, CLR2000, Di 6.5R
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post #5474 of 5991 Old 02-13-2020, 06:49 PM
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It's pretty much the whole episode. But try watching the final battle scenes, including where the Dothraki horsemen ride off to battle with their swords on fire.
What exactly am I looking for in that scene, just for it to look good, and not washed out?

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post #5475 of 5991 Old 02-13-2020, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by biglen View Post
What exactly am I looking for in that scene, just for it to look good, and not washed out?
I would suggest watching the original episode in SDR from HBO Now streaming, as that will be in the format it was originally broadcast in and the way almost everyone else saw it. You say you have it in 4k HDR, so that means you probably have the 4k UHD Blu-ray disc, or a rip of it. If you do watch in 4k HDR, you have another variable that comes into play, the setting of the Epson HDR slider. If you are watching from a 4k UHD Blu-ray disc, you also have to take into consideration any tone-mapping that might be happening in your player. For example, the Panasonic UB820 has settings for HDR tone mapping for low luminance displays like projectors.

So, watch the episode (or the final battle scene) auto-iris off, and then rewatch with auto-iris on high=speed. Look for things like, how black is the background (does it look black or just dark grey?). Look for how much detail you can see in the scene with each auto-iris setting. Auto-iris on and high speed should let you see more details in the entire scene, since the entire scene is in shadow and would be considered "shadow detail". If you are watching in 4k HDR, you may need to make adjustments to the Epson's HDR slider to get a good picture first. Most people watch with the slider somewhere between 1-5, with 1 mostly being too light and washed out with black levels crushed, and 5 (or higher) mostly being too dark.

Main: Marantz AV8805, 5x Behringer NX4-6000, Epson 6050UB, Stewart Greyhawk 120", LG C8 65", DISH H3, Panasonic UB820, ATV4k, FTV4k, 7.2.6+2: DefTech BP2000, CLR2000, Di 5.5BPS, UIW BPZ/A, Di 8R, M&K MX-125. Bedroom: Yamaha RX-A3070, LG E8 55", DISH 4k Joey, FTV4k, 5.1.4: DT RCS II, RSS II, IW Sub Ref. Basement: Yamaha RX-A3040, 3x Marantz MA700U, Panasonic PT-AE8000U, Panasonic P65VT50, 6.1: DT BP2000, CLR2000, Di 6.5R
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post #5476 of 5991 Old 02-13-2020, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jch2 View Post
I would suggest watching the original episode in SDR from HBO Now streaming, as that will be in the format it was originally broadcast in and the way almost everyone else saw it. You say you have it in 4k HDR, so that means you probably have the 4k UHD Blu-ray disc, or a rip of it. If you do watch in 4k HDR, you have another variable that comes into play, the setting of the Epson HDR slider. If you are watching from a 4k UHD Blu-ray disc, you also have to take into consideration any tone-mapping that might be happening in your player. For example, the Panasonic UB820 has settings for HDR tone mapping for low luminance displays like projectors.



So, watch the episode (or the final battle scene) auto-iris off, and then rewatch with auto-iris on high=speed. Look for things like, how black is the background (does it look black or just dark grey?). Look for how much detail you can see in the scene with each auto-iris setting. Auto-iris on and high speed should let you see more details in the entire scene, since the entire scene is in shadow and would be considered "shadow detail". If you are watching in 4k HDR, you may need to make adjustments to the Epson's HDR slider to get a good picture first. Most people watch with the slider somewhere between 1-5, with 1 mostly being too light and washed out with black levels crushed, and 5 (or higher) mostly being too dark.
Is this where the battle scene starts?

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post #5477 of 5991 Old 02-13-2020, 07:22 PM
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On another note, I watched a 4k HDR demo that had some really good blacks.

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post #5478 of 5991 Old 02-13-2020, 07:29 PM
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On another note, I watched a 4k HDR demo that had some really good blacks.

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Man that is a beautiful image

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post #5479 of 5991 Old 02-13-2020, 07:50 PM
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Man that is a beautiful image

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Thanks ! Here's a link to the demo if you want to see what it looks like on your 6050. There's a bunch of other great demos on there as well. Put the file on a USB stick, and play it through your Roku.

https://4kmedia.org/sharp-saturns-rings-uhd-4k-demo/

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post #5480 of 5991 Old 02-13-2020, 08:08 PM
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Thanks ! Here's a link to the demo if you want to see what it looks like on your 6050. There's a bunch of other great demos on there as well. Put the file on a USB stick, and play it through your Roku.

https://4kmedia.org/sharp-saturns-rings-uhd-4k-demo/

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Mucho gracias my friend.

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post #5481 of 5991 Old 02-13-2020, 08:25 PM
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Is this where the battle scene starts?
I apologize, I gave you the wrong episode number. The episode is S08E03 "The Long Night". The Dothraki charge with flaming swords starts about 12 minutes in. The entire episode was filmed at night and is dark, so you can watch just about any scene.

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post #5482 of 5991 Old 02-13-2020, 08:35 PM
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I apologize, I gave you the wrong episode number. The episode is S08E03 "The Long Night". The Dothraki charge with flaming swords starts about 12 minutes in. The entire episode was filmed at night and is dark, so you can watch just about any scene.
I had a feeling I had the wrong episode.

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post #5483 of 5991 Old 02-14-2020, 08:02 AM
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Here's a question strictly out of curiosity. JVC released the N series of projectors without Dynamic Toning Mapping. They then were able to add it with a simple firmware update. I would imagine that the circuit boards they had installed at the time of release were not exceptionally elaborate because it would seem that if they had anticipated the DTM upgrade required major upgrading in circuit boards they would have installed those at the time of release. And if they had, why didn't they install DTM at the time ( maybe it wasn't perfected yet?). My point being that if it doesn't require an apparatus of complex, expensive circuitry, why can't Epson release a small Darbee-like device that the HDMI signal comes through that has DTM capabilities? I think most of us Epson owners would pay even a few hundreds dollars for DTM on the quality of the JVC's. The circuitry and firmware code can't be that complex or expensive to reproduce, can it? I mean, I know it's not going to be on the level of the Envy or even HTPC or Lumagen, but might be better than Panasonic 820 or Epson's built in static tone mapping. I am ignorant of the details of what this would require, but is there any sense in what I'm proposing? What does the brains trust think?
The NX lineup shipped with a rather powerful image processor. I'm not sure if DTM was the original plan, but remember the original firmware did do static tone mapping so they were at least playing with tone mapping from the get go. If I was to speculate, I don't think they put that powerful hardware in there for no reason and DTM was probably a goal that they just couldn't meet in time for the release. As Plain Fan points out they did have to drop a correction feature for anamorphic lenses with curved screens, but we don't know if that was a processing issue or they needed to free up memory for the new code.

I think whomever gets a device out there that can do decent DTM for $800 or less stands to make a lot of money from the projector market. There are a lot of Epson, JVC e-shift and Sony 4K projectors out there that can really benefit. Maybe someone like HDFury will try to tackle it. Or maybe Panasonic with a player, but that has the disadvantage of only working with material that player can handle vs something that directly feeds the display that can handle all HDR sources. I do look for Epson and Sony to address DTM in future products. I'm a bit surprised Epson hasn't gone full native 4K yet. Probably waiting until they can get the panel performance at the price point they want to hit.

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post #5484 of 5991 Old 02-14-2020, 12:45 PM
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The NX lineup shipped with a rather powerful image processor. I'm not sure if DTM was the original plan, but remember the original firmware did do static tone mapping so they were at least playing with tone mapping from the get go. If I was to speculate, I don't think they put that powerful hardware in there for no reason and DTM was probably a goal that they just couldn't meet in time for the release. As Plain Fan points out they did have to drop a correction feature for anamorphic lenses with curved screens, but we don't know if that was a processing issue or they needed to free up memory for the new code.



I think whomever gets a device out there that can do decent DTM for $800 or less stands to make a lot of money from the projector market. There are a lot of Epson, JVC e-shift and Sony 4K projectors out there that can really benefit. Maybe someone like HDFury will try to tackle it. Or maybe Panasonic with a player, but that has the disadvantage of only working with material that player can handle vs something that directly feeds the display that can handle all HDR sources. I do look for Epson and Sony to address DTM in future products. I'm a bit surprised Epson hasn't gone full native 4K yet. Probably waiting until they can get the panel performance at the price point they want to hit.
Any idea why the MadVR Envy is so outrageously priced???

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post #5485 of 5991 Old 02-14-2020, 12:55 PM
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The NX lineup shipped with a rather powerful image processor. I'm not sure if DTM was the original plan, but remember the original firmware did do static tone mapping so they were at least playing with tone mapping from the get go. If I was to speculate, I don't think they put that powerful hardware in there for no reason and DTM was probably a goal that they just couldn't meet in time for the release. As Plain Fan points out they did have to drop a correction feature for anamorphic lenses with curved screens, but we don't know if that was a processing issue or they needed to free up memory for the new code.



I think whomever gets a device out there that can do decent DTM for $800 or less stands to make a lot of money from the projector market. There are a lot of Epson, JVC e-shift and Sony 4K projectors out there that can really benefit. Maybe someone like HDFury will try to tackle it. Or maybe Panasonic with a player, but that has the disadvantage of only working with material that player can handle vs something that directly feeds the display that can handle all HDR sources. I do look for Epson and Sony to address DTM in future products. I'm a bit surprised Epson hasn't gone full native 4K yet. Probably waiting until they can get the panel performance at the price point they want to hit.


Epson was probably waiting for me to buy one before going 4K native. I just did.. so I guarantee that they’ll release a 4K native one this year. They’ve patiently waited for me to buy, and finally ran me down


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post #5486 of 5991 Old 02-14-2020, 12:59 PM
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Epson was probably waiting for me to buy one before going 4K native. I just did.. so I guarantee that they’ll release a 4K native one this year. They’ve patiently waited for me to buy, and finally ran me down


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You'll feel better when you see how much more the native 4k model will be, compared to what you just spent. I'd guess it will be at least double of what you paid, and to the naked eye sitting at the main viewing position, you probably wouldn't see much of a difference.

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post #5487 of 5991 Old 02-14-2020, 01:09 PM
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You'll feel better when you see how much more the native 4k model will be, compared to what you just spent. I'd guess it will be at least double of what you paid, and to the naked eye sitting at the main viewing position, you probably wouldn't see much of a difference.

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I don’t want to spend the big bucks until we have 8k with full 48gbps bandwidth and all refresh rates

Here’s hoping this projector lasts that long hehe


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post #5488 of 5991 Old 02-14-2020, 01:11 PM
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Any idea why the MadVR Envy is so outrageously priced???

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My guess is that it's their use of top of the line PC hardware. So you have a significant cost in the bill of materials for the 2080Ti, board, processor, etc on top of the hardware that supports HDMI pass through/copy protection. The main problem with top of the line PC hardware is you are using general purpose computing (and a lot of it) vs. silicon specifically designed for the task at hand. Specialized silicon is much smaller, more efficient and cheaper to manufacture. But you have to have it designed. With MadVR I suspect they lack the capital to get specialized silicon designed and produced. They may also be worried about recouping the R&D with what is kind of a niche product.

The main worry for MadVR is Lumagen appears to have the resources to design custom hardware. And I would bet they are taking MadVR very seriously. It's very likely they can get custom silicon that is competitive for less money in a much smaller footprint. Doesn't solve the issue of the sub $1000 solution though as Lumagen has never really been in that market. That I could see a Panasonic or HDFury taking an interest in.

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post #5489 of 5991 Old 02-14-2020, 01:31 PM
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My guess is that it's their use of top of the line PC hardware. So you have a significant cost in the bill of materials for the 2080Ti, board, processor, etc on top of the hardware that supports HDMI pass through/copy protection. The main problem with top of the line PC hardware is you are using general purpose computing (and a lot of it) vs. silicon specifically designed for the task at hand. Specialized silicon is much smaller, more efficient and cheaper to manufacture. But you have to have it designed. With MadVR I suspect they lack the capital to get specialized silicon designed and produced. They may also be worried about recouping the R&D with what is kind of a niche product.



The main worry for MadVR is Lumagen appears to have the resources to design custom hardware. And I would bet they are taking MadVR very seriously. It's very likely they can get custom silicon that is competitive for less money in a much smaller footprint. Doesn't solve the issue of the sub $1000 solution though as Lumagen has never really been in that market. That I could see a Panasonic or HDFury taking an interest in.
Don't forget the exorbitant cost of HDCP licensing for all the devices that will run through the video processor. Honestly if you spec out all the hardware and the licensing agreements it isn't ridiculously priced. It is just the Envy that makes us want it to be so much less expensive.

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post #5490 of 5991 Old 02-14-2020, 03:16 PM
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My guess is that it's their use of top of the line PC hardware. So you have a significant cost in the bill of materials for the 2080Ti, board, processor, etc on top of the hardware that supports HDMI pass through/copy protection. The main problem with top of the line PC hardware is you are using general purpose computing (and a lot of it) vs. silicon specifically designed for the task at hand. Specialized silicon is much smaller, more efficient and cheaper to manufacture. But you have to have it designed. With MadVR I suspect they lack the capital to get specialized silicon designed and produced. They may also be worried about recouping the R&D with what is kind of a niche product.



The main worry for MadVR is Lumagen appears to have the resources to design custom hardware. And I would bet they are taking MadVR very seriously. It's very likely they can get custom silicon that is competitive for less money in a much smaller footprint. Doesn't solve the issue of the sub $1000 solution though as Lumagen has never really been in that market. That I could see a Panasonic or HDFury taking an interest in.
But...lumagen doesn't have the algorithms to really accomplish what MadVR is doing.

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