THE Epson 5050UB/6050UB Thread (No Price Talk) - Page 184 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5491 of 5599 Old 02-14-2020, 08:22 PM
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Hi all. So I just pushed the button on a 5050 and I'm super stoked (gonna be a long 5 days of shipping wait!). Except I JUST painted my white ceiling with a dark brown matte and I’m so sad about the big white eyesore it’s going to be. I just couldn’t stomach the extra $1000 to go to the 6050 just for the color (and a bulb I guess....I already have a good Chief mount).
Anyway I’m just daydreaming about ways to blacken it. I tried Googling parts to see if I could just buy the outer plastic pieces but everything ended up at ‘call an Epson dealer’
Some kind of black wrap? (would be such a pain with all those vents to cut out)
Hand paint it? Seems so wrong on a new $3500 projector (I’m in Canada, eh).
Learn to never look at it?
Thoughts? I really need to kill the next 5 days 😜
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post #5492 of 5599 Old 02-14-2020, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyCanuck69 View Post
Hi all. So I just pushed the button on a 5050 and I'm super stoked (gonna be a long 5 days of shipping wait!). Except I JUST painted my white ceiling with a dark brown matte and I’m so sad about the big white eyesore it’s going to be. I just couldn’t stomach the extra $1000 to go to the 6050 just for the color (and a bulb I guess....I already have a good Chief mount).
Anyway I’m just daydreaming about ways to blacken it. I tried Googling parts to see if I could just buy the outer plastic pieces but everything ended up at ‘call an Epson dealer’
Some kind of black wrap? (would be such a pain with all those vents to cut out)
Hand paint it? Seems so wrong on a new $3500 projector (I’m in Canada, eh).
Learn to never look at it?
Thoughts? I really need to kill the next 5 days 😜
Plastidip it black. You can then always peel the coating off later if you need to very easily.

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post #5493 of 5599 Old 02-14-2020, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyCanuck69 View Post
Hi all. So I just pushed the button on a 5050 and I'm super stoked (gonna be a long 5 days of shipping wait!). Except I JUST painted my white ceiling with a dark brown matte and I’m so sad about the big white eyesore it’s going to be. I just couldn’t stomach the extra $1000 to go to the 6050 just for the color (and a bulb I guess....I already have a good Chief mount).
Anyway I’m just daydreaming about ways to blacken it. I tried Googling parts to see if I could just buy the outer plastic pieces but everything ended up at ‘call an Epson dealer’
Some kind of black wrap? (would be such a pain with all those vents to cut out)
Hand paint it? Seems so wrong on a new $3500 projector (I’m in Canada, eh).
Learn to never look at it?
Thoughts? I really need to kill the next 5 days 😜


I recommend looking at the screen instead... I have the same setup with all black theater etc and I find that I never look at the projector


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post #5494 of 5599 Old 02-15-2020, 05:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyCanuck69 View Post
Hi all. So I just pushed the button on a 5050 and I'm super stoked (gonna be a long 5 days of shipping wait!). Except I JUST painted my white ceiling with a dark brown matte and I’m so sad about the big white eyesore it’s going to be. I just couldn’t stomach the extra $1000 to go to the 6050 just for the color (and a bulb I guess....I already have a good Chief mount).
Anyway I’m just daydreaming about ways to blacken it. I tried Googling parts to see if I could just buy the outer plastic pieces but everything ended up at ‘call an Epson dealer’
Some kind of black wrap? (would be such a pain with all those vents to cut out)
Hand paint it? Seems so wrong on a new $3500 projector (I’m in Canada, eh).
Learn to never look at it?
Thoughts? I really need to kill the next 5 days 😜
I would not recommend doing any type of coating that gives off chemicals even if you can't smell them. Besides the health risk you can and will damage the lens system and LCD panel when the chemicals in the coating are heated by the projector and then sucked into the projector. Build a hush box and paint it black. Kills the noise pollution and gets rid of the white eyesore.

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post #5495 of 5599 Old 02-15-2020, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyCanuck69 View Post
Hi all. So I just pushed the button on a 5050 and I'm super stoked (gonna be a long 5 days of shipping wait!). Except I JUST painted my white ceiling with a dark brown matte and I’m so sad about the big white eyesore it’s going to be. I just couldn’t stomach the extra $1000 to go to the 6050 just for the color (and a bulb I guess....I already have a good Chief mount).
Anyway I’m just daydreaming about ways to blacken it. I tried Googling parts to see if I could just buy the outer plastic pieces but everything ended up at ‘call an Epson dealer’
Some kind of black wrap? (would be such a pain with all those vents to cut out)
Hand paint it? Seems so wrong on a new $3500 projector (I’m in Canada, eh).
Learn to never look at it?
Thoughts? I really need to kill the next 5 days 😜
I realize that there are a few among us who are extremely OCD about the PJ’s case color...but I’m in the @ivanhoek camp. The important aspect of this hobby is in front of you rather than above you. Once immersed in a good movie in a darkened room, the PJ disappears...for the majority of us. The truly OCD would only find it distracting with a movie playing or no movie playing and the lights on. If this is the case (no pun intended), then perhaps make an appointment with a psychoanalyst.. Kidding aside, there have been a couple of owners here who have found solutions...either with a case wrapping material or a hush box approach...painting is not advisable for a myriad of reasons. In any case, good luck with your search for a solution to your liking!

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Last edited by gene4ht; 02-15-2020 at 07:43 AM. Reason: Typo
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post #5496 of 5599 Old 02-15-2020, 05:23 PM
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Question for Epson 6050UB and 5050UB owners, especially those who own a STEWART (or any other ALR) screen with approximately 1.2, 1.3 gain.

I'm seriously thinking of purchasing a new Epson 4K 6050UB to replace my "long in the tooth" SONY VPL-VW60 1080p projector. I just have one area of concern.

I have a 100" 16/9 STEWART Firehawk SST retractable tab-tensioned screen with a 1.2 gain.
My current ceiling mounted projector lens throw is approximately 12 1/2 feet from the screen.

My question is this: because the Epson 6050UB is so much brighter than my current projector will I experience "hot spotting"? Or, based upon your experience does the STEWART screen do a great job in preventing "hot spotting".

Any response/information would be greatly appreciated.
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post #5497 of 5599 Old 02-15-2020, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Jmouse007 View Post
Question for Epson 6050UB and 5050UB owners, especially those who own a STEWART (or any other ALR) screen with approximately 1.2, 1.3 gain.



I'm seriously thinking of purchasing a new Epson 4K 6050UB to replace my "long in the tooth" SONY VPL-VW60 1080p projector. I just have one area of concern.



I have a 100" 16/9 STEWART Firehawk SST retractable tab-tensioned screen with a 1.2 gain.

My current ceiling mounted projector lens throw is approximately 12 1/2 feet from the screen.



My question is this: because the Epson 6050UB is so much brighter than my current projector will I experience "hot spotting"? Or, based upon your experience does the STEWART screen do a great job in preventing "hot spotting".



Any response/information would be greatly appreciated.


You can always use a lower bulb mode (such as eco) and/or close the iris until you get the brightness you want/need.


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post #5498 of 5599 Old 02-15-2020, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Schurter View Post
How many people have 145 inch plus screen.
What aspic ratio
How much gain

Can you share your setup
How dose HDR look / perform on a screen this size.
150"
16:9
1.1 gain

Running a 5040 in medium lamp with a htpc and MadVR. HDR looks amazing and very bright thanks to madvr. Without madVR, I would caution against going with a big screen for hdr though; it'll be very dim and you'll definitely have to run high lamp (noisy!).

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What htpc set do you have.

Your madvr setup.
How can you have hdr in low lamp.
I thought you needed 30ft lumens for hdr
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post #5499 of 5599 Old 02-15-2020, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Schurter View Post
What htpc set do you have.

Your madvr setup.
How can you have hdr in low lamp.
I thought you needed 30ft lumens for hdr
Budget htpc I pieced together that's built around a pc that is probably 5-6 years old. It has a amd cpu and then I added a ssd HD, bigger psu and a 1060 6gb gpu.

I run medium lamp and get about 80 nits on my 150" display (plenty for MADVR to make the magic happen). I see a bit over 100 nits in high lamp, but I don't use it as I can't stand that mini jet engine blowing over head.

30ft lumens is a sufficient (just barely imo) light level for hdr if your running without madVR.

MadVR changes everything about how to make the most out of hdr on low lumen displays. It's worth learning about it if you want a crazy good video experience on the big screen!

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post #5500 of 5599 Old 02-15-2020, 07:31 PM
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I need a new projector now.

At this point, should I buy a 5050UB or a 6050UB?

Both are nearly a year old and my get updated or repriced in the fast moving marketplace.

Is the 5050UB "good enough"?

Is the 6050UB overpriced by comparison?

Thanks in advance.

Murray Kerdman
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post #5501 of 5599 Old 02-16-2020, 05:13 PM
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have been lovin' my 6050ub + htpc setup but recently decided to play around with different hardware and software settings / combos just to see if it was possible to get even better performance and image quality, it's been fun and educational to say the least... my equipment includes the 6050ub, htpc, radiance pro, vertex, cx-a5100 avr and i've been experimenting with quite a few different software players and filters as well.

all of that said, i'm hoping that someone can explain exactly how the 6050ub handles 4k (3840 x 2160) video files given the pj's 1920 x 1080 (1920 x 1080 x 2) native resolution? the pj can of course accept 3840 x 2160 signals but what does it do with that signal? downscale it to 1920 x 1080 so that it can apply its 4k enhancement? thanks!
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post #5502 of 5599 Old 02-16-2020, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by aeneas01 View Post
I'm hoping that someone can explain exactly how the 6050ub handles 4k (3840 x 2160) video files given the pj's 1920 x 1080 (1920 x 1080 x 2) native resolution? the pj can of course accept 3840 x 2160 signals but what does it do with that signal? downscale it to 1920 x 1080 so that it can apply its 4k enhancement? thanks!
Is uses the full 3840 x 2160 (8M pixels) worth of information to choose the best colors to render each of the two shifted 1920 x 1080 frames (4M pixels) on the screen. It does NOT first downscale to 2M pixels and then upscale (with 4k enhancement) to 4M pixels. You'll notice that "4k Enhancement" is only active and available to be turned on if you feed it a 1080p signal. If you feed it a 4k signal the option is off and disabled.

If the source is a true 4k (not upscaled source like a lot of movies with special effects that themselves are only mastered at 2-4M pixels and then upscaled since true 8M pixel CGI is far too expensive yet) then you'll notice an improvement in apparent sharpness of the image vs downscaling it first to 1920 x 1080 outside of the projector and letting the projector's 4k enhancement fill in (i.e. "guess") 4M pixels from only 2M source pixels. So, the more source pixels you send to it the better the picture can be. You may not notice a difference from your viewing distance, and depending on the source there may also be very little difference in picture. But in theory, feeding it a full real 8M pixels worth of information from a source that has never been upscaled should give the projector more / better information to work with and produce a better image.

If you watch a lot of movies with special effects, there will be very little to no difference in picture between a true 4k display (8M pixel display) and an Epson pixel shifter (4M pixels) because the source is likely only a 2M or 4M pixels source post-CGI and then upscaled to 4k / 8M pixels on the media you have (or in the data file you are streaming from).

Finally, most of what you use to determine picture quality has little to do with the amount of pixels on the screen though (the resolution). The camera itself, the color space (SDR / REC.709 vs HDR / BT.2020), focus and aperture settings of the original camera, contrast and black levels, colors and color accuracy, greyscale and greyscale accuracy, and brightness (and especially brightness), as well as any image processing that went into the source and that are processed by the equipment in your signal path all have a much higher impact on perceived picture quality than resolution.

Hope that helps.

-J.C.
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post #5503 of 5599 Old 02-17-2020, 04:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aeneas01 View Post
all of that said, i'm hoping that someone can explain exactly how the 6050ub handles 4k (3840 x 2160) video files given the pj's 1920 x 1080 (1920 x 1080 x 2) native resolution? the pj can of course accept 3840 x 2160 signals but what does it do with that signal? downscale it to 1920 x 1080 so that it can apply its 4k enhancement? thanks!


Hope this explains how proper 4K signals are received, converted and then projected onto the screen

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post #5504 of 5599 Old 02-17-2020, 08:37 AM
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@Luminated67 ,

Does that describe the "all the pixels on the screen at once" with a 4k panel versus pixel shifting? So pixel shifting does display the entire 4k image, just not at the same time but it does show each pixel?

Thanks

Grady
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post #5505 of 5599 Old 02-17-2020, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by plain fan View Post
@Luminated67 ,

Does that describe the "all the pixels on the screen at once" with a 4k panel versus pixel shifting? So pixel shifting does display the entire 4k image, just not at the same time but it does show each pixel?

Thanks
4K pixel-shifting shows half of a complete 4k image. 1920x1080x2 = 4 million pixels. 3840x2160 = 8 million pixels.
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post #5506 of 5599 Old 02-17-2020, 09:31 AM
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4K pixel-shifting shows half of a complete 4k image. 1920x1080x2 = 4 million pixels. 3840x2160 = 8 million pixels.
This is correct, from what I can make out it creates two individual 1080p images and shifts one the half a pixel were as with a 1080p signal it creates two identical images and shifts it the half pixel. This is why a good 4K signal away looks that bit better.

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post #5507 of 5599 Old 02-17-2020, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plain fan View Post
@Luminated67 ,

Does that describe the "all the pixels on the screen at once" with a 4k panel versus pixel shifting? So pixel shifting does display the entire 4k image, just not at the same time but it does show each pixel?

Thanks
There are 8M pixels in a 4k image. The Epson displays 4M pixels (two 2M pixels images shifted 50% of a pixel up and right from each other) interpolated from the 8M pixels available. So, half the available pixels. From anything farther away than 50% of the screen diagonal, you most likely won't see a difference.

Also, with source material with special effects where the CGI was done at 2M or 4M pixels (most CGI), you also won't see much of a difference since there is only 2M or 4M pixels worth of real information in the 8M pixel frame given to the Epson.

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post #5508 of 5599 Old 02-17-2020, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
This is correct, from what I can make out it creates two individual 1080p images and shifts one the half a pixel were as with a 1080p signal it creates two identical images and shifts it the half pixel. This is why a good 4K signal away looks that bit better.
That's the way I understand it. Each 1080p image is unique and derived from the original 4k image with pixel-shifting.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pete ramberg View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
This is correct, from what I can make out it creates two individual 1080p images and shifts one the half a pixel were as with a 1080p signal it creates two identical images and shifts it the half pixel. This is why a good 4K signal away looks that bit better.
That's the way I understand it. Each 1080p image is unique and derived from the original 4k image with pixel-shifting.
Whether the source is 1080p or 4k, the two individual frames created are unique (never identical unless you are displaying a solid color frame).

With a 1080p signal, it has to "make up" or "guess" the second frame (this is the "4k enhancement" process), and it can look better or worse than the original 1080p signal, but generally better.

With a 4k signal it uses the information in the signal to "derive" the second frame, and thus is more accurate since the information is not "made up". This almost always looks better than a downconversion to 1080p.

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post #5510 of 5599 Old 02-17-2020, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jch2 View Post
Whether the source is 1080p or 4k, the two individual frames created are unique (never identical unless you are displaying a solid color frame).

With a 1080p signal, it has to "make up" or "guess" the second frame (this is the "4k enhancement" process), and it can look better or worse than the original 1080p signal, but generally better.

With a 4k signal it uses the information in the signal to "derive" the second frame, and thus is more accurate since the information is not "made up". This almost always looks better than a downconversion to 1080p.

Is it your understanding that upscaling a native 1080p images uses interpolation of the original 1080p image to create the second (rather than frame doubling)?
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post #5511 of 5599 Old 02-17-2020, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post


Hope this explains how proper 4K signals are received, converted and then projected onto the screen
so the 6050ub "splits" the 3840 x 2160 image into two 1920 x 1080 frames and then shifts them to produce the 4k image as opposed to passing along the 3840 x 2160 image? how would the same diagram look with a 1080p image as the source?



Quote:
Originally Posted by jch2
There are 8M pixels in a 4k image. The Epson displays 4M pixels (two 2M pixels images shifted 50% of a pixel up and right from each other) interpolated from the 8M pixels available. So, half the available pixels. From anything farther away than 50% of the screen diagonal, you most likely won't see a difference.
so for a 170" (diagonal) screen (148" x 83"), anything farther away than 7' it would be tough to see the difference? i ask because that's what i've found as well - does anyone sit within 7' of a 170" screen? seems like that would be very fatiguing, at least.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jch2
Finally, most of what you use to determine picture quality has little to do with the amount of pixels on the screen though (the resolution). The camera itself, the color space (SDR / REC.709 vs HDR / BT.2020), focus and aperture settings of the original camera, contrast and black levels, colors and color accuracy, greyscale and greyscale accuracy, and brightness (and especially brightness), as well as any image processing that went into the source and that are processed by the equipment in your signal path all have a much higher impact on perceived picture quality than resolution.
first, thanks for the very detailed and clearly put explanation in your previous post, very helpful indeed... re the above, i have to agree 100%, at least in my experience.
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post #5512 of 5599 Old 02-17-2020, 03:18 PM
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so the 6050ub "splits" the 3840 x 2160 image into two 1920 x 1080 frames and then shifts them to produce the 4k image as opposed to passing along the 3840 x 2160 image? how would the same diagram look with a 1080p image as the source?




so for a 170" (diagonal) screen (148" x 83"), anything farther away than 7' it would be tough to see the difference? i ask because that's what i've found as well - does anyone sit within 7' of a 170" screen? seems like that would be very fatiguing, at least.



first, thanks for the very detailed and clearly put explanation in your previous post, very helpful indeed... re the above, i have to agree 100%, at least in my experience.
I believe the projector downscales the image from 8m pixels to 4. So downscales to 1080p and then enables the 4K enhancer (?).

markmon1 sits at 7' from an 135" screen, with an JVC RS4500 (native 4K).
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post #5513 of 5599 Old 02-17-2020, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pete ramberg View Post
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Originally Posted by jch2 View Post
Whether the source is 1080p or 4k, the two individual frames created are unique (never identical unless you are displaying a solid color frame).

With a 1080p signal, it has to "make up" or "guess" the second frame (this is the "4k enhancement" process), and it can look better or worse than the original 1080p signal, but generally better.

With a 4k signal it uses the information in the signal to "derive" the second frame, and thus is more accurate since the information is not "made up". This almost always looks better than a downconversion to 1080p.

Is it your understanding that upscaling a native 1080p images uses interpolation of the original 1080p image to create the second (rather than frame doubling)?
Yes, that is correct. Just doubling and sending the same 1080p twice, with the second part identical to the first one but shifted 50% of a pixel up and right would look terrible and blur the original 1080p frame. It would look like double-vision.

The simplest solution would for the "4k Enhancement" algorithm would be to guess the pixels of the shifted frame from interpolating the four neighboring pixels, but the image processing is much more sophisticated than that, and also includes noise reduction, edge enhancement (i.e. sharpness), and lots of other algorithmic trickery to create an even better image. If it works (and it generally does) it looks better than the just sending the original 1080p image without the "4k Enhancement" processing.

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post #5514 of 5599 Old 02-18-2020, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by jch2 View Post
Yes, that is correct. Just doubling and sending the same 1080p twice, with the second part identical to the first one but shifted 50% of a pixel up and right would look terrible and blur the original 1080p frame. It would look like double-vision.

The simplest solution would for the "4k Enhancement" algorithm would be to guess the pixels of the shifted frame from interpolating the four neighboring pixels, but the image processing is much more sophisticated than that, and also includes noise reduction, edge enhancement (i.e. sharpness), and lots of other algorithmic trickery to create an even better image. If it works (and it generally does) it looks better than the just sending the original 1080p image without the "4k Enhancement" processing.

-J.C.
That's why i love this place, you learn something new everyday. Why does a REAL 4K bluray look that little bit better than a 1080P one, is it the fact that the system has more data to work with and can calculate better what to make the second image from?

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post #5515 of 5599 Old 02-18-2020, 07:35 PM
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I thought I had saw on here before someone having an issue with what they thought was not the crispiest image.

I upgraded to the 5050 over the 5040 and it's awesome having the HDR but I feel like the image isn't as sharp as it could be.

The focus is fine but like DirecTV and Xbox menus seem slightly blurry.

4k movies look great.

Is this just the source or should I recalibrate the projector. I had to adjust it slightly to get the image to fit perfectly on my screen and I feel like maybe this is the reason.

Any help in getting my Projector dialed in perfectly I would greatly appreciate.

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post #5516 of 5599 Old 02-18-2020, 07:37 PM
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Looking for recommendations for an active 2.0b HDMI 4K cable for a 30ft run from our ONKYO PR-RZ5100 AV processor to our new (just ordered) Epson 6050UB 4k projector.

The HDMI channel conduit is located outside the wall. It has a removable cover which makes HDMI cable replacement a snap.

Is anything capable of passing a 4:4:4 4K 60Hz Chroma subsampling with an 8 bit color depth and a 4:2:2 4K 60Hz 10 bit signal at 30'?

Ruipro says it can only push "8 bit for 4:4:4" at 33', the closest length listed as meeting our needs.

Blue Jeans BJC Series-3A Active HDMI Cable seems like a possibility but it literally lists no performance specs.

There are also numerous "active optical HDMI" cable brands listed on Amazon but I don't know if any of these are reliable or capable of meeting our needs, hence my mentioning the Ruprio and Blue Jeans HDMI Active Cables.

I don't mind spending the money, I'm just looking for the best "active" HDMI cable that is capable of passing the best 4K HDR image possible to my new Epson 6050UB with an easy run.

What has worked for you?

Thanks in advance for your advice.

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post #5517 of 5599 Old 02-18-2020, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmouse007 View Post
Looking for recommendations for an active 2.0b HDMI 4K cable for a 30ft run from our ONKYO PR-RZ5100 AV processor to our new (just ordered) Epson 6050UB 4k projector.



The HDMI channel conduit is located outside the wall. It has a removable cover which makes HDMI cable replacement a snap.



Is anything capable of passing a 4:4:4 60Hz Chroma subsampling with a 10 bit color depth signal at 30'?



Ruipro says it can only push "8 bit for 4:4:4" at 33', the closest length listed as meeting our needs.



Blue Jeans BJC Series-3A Active HDMI Cable seems like a possibility but it literally lists no performance specs.



There are also numerous "active optical HDMI" cable brands listed on Amazon but I don't know if any of these are reliable or capable of meeting our needs, hence my mentioning the Ruprio and Blue Jeans HDMI Active Cables.



I don't mind spending the money, I'm just looking for the best "active" HDMI cable that is capable of passing the best 4K HDR image possible to my new Epson 6050UB with an easy run.



What has worked for you?



Thanks in advance for your advice.
I tried a boat load of cables, and the Blue Jeans has worked flawlessly. I have the 35' from the projector, to my Pioneer Elite receiver. No issues whatsoever.

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post #5518 of 5599 Old 02-19-2020, 01:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jch2 View Post
Yes, that is correct. Just doubling and sending the same 1080p twice, with the second part identical to the first one but shifted 50% of a pixel up and right would look terrible and blur the original 1080p frame. It would look like double-vision.

The simplest solution would for the "4k Enhancement" algorithm would be to guess the pixels of the shifted frame from interpolating the four neighboring pixels, but the image processing is much more sophisticated than that, and also includes noise reduction, edge enhancement (i.e. sharpness), and lots of other algorithmic trickery to create an even better image. If it works (and it generally does) it looks better than the just sending the original 1080p image without the "4k Enhancement" processing.

-J.C.
That's why i love this place, you learn something new everyday. Why does a REAL 4K bluray look that little bit better than a 1080P one, is it the fact that the system has more data to work with and can calculate better what to make the second image from?
That's mostly correct.

A 1080p Blu-ray disc has 2 million pixels per frame, uses 8-bit or 10-bit color, and a much smaller SDR color space called Rec.709. To display 4 million pixels from this source the Epson uses its "4k Enhancement" -- it displays the actual 2 million pixels and then it "guesses"the other 2 million (called upscaling) to make a better image. The image is still SDR / Rec.709 though -- there's no "color space upscaling". It generally does a good job of this and the upscaled image looks better than if you turned 4k Enhancement off and just viewed the original 1080p image natively, but not always.

A 4k HDR Blu-ray has 8 million pixels per frame (4 times as many), uses 10-bit or 12-bit color, and has a much larger HDR color space called Rec.2020 or BT.2020 (which is twice as large as Rec.709). To display 4 million pixels from this source the Epson can compute values for all 4 million pixels it can display from the actual source pixels (called downscaling). It doesn't have to guess anything like it does when it upscales. A downscaled 4 million pixels image will almost always look better than 4 million pixels upscaled 1080p image, because guessing the value for pixels will always be less accurate than computing the actual values from real source pixels.

So, the differences you are seeing between the two different images displayed by the Epson: a 1080p SDR image upscaled to 4 million pixels and a 4k HDR image downscaled to 4 million pixels are a combination of resolution (8 million source pixels is better than 2 million, there's no guessing when it has all 8 million pixels to work with) and color space (HDR is better than SDR).

However, 4 million pixels displayed will look somewhat less sharp than a true 4k projector that does a good job of displaying all 8 million pixels (like a JVC NX7). But, from normal viewing distances (more than 50% of the screen diagonal) and 20/20 vision, your eyes don't have the physical ability to tell the difference between 4 million (Epson pixel-shift) and 8 million pixels (true 4k). If you see a difference from more than 50% of the screen diagonal away, what you are most likely seeing is the image processing differences (sharpness / edge enhancement, noise reduction, etc) between display manufacturers, not the difference in the number of pixels rendered on the screen.

Even though you can't see the difference between 4 million and 8 million pixels at typical viewing distances, what you can see clearly with 20/20 vision out to about 125% of the screen diagonal away is the difference between 2 million pixels (HD/1080p, upscaled or not) and 4 million pixels downscaled from a 4k source with Epson pixel-shift. So, the Epson pixel-shifted downscaled image from a 4k source looks sharper than 1080p native or upscaled image all the way out to about 125% of the screen diagonal. But even if you walk far enough away from your screen so the resolution no longer matters, you'll still clearly see the differences between the SDR / Rec.709 limited color space vs the HDR / Rec.2020 expanded color space.

Also, as a note, properly calibrated, the Epson can display over 100% of Rec.709 in any color mode, and about 75% of Rec.2020 with high lamp mode and any of the three color modes that engages the color filter (Cinema, B&W Cinema, and Digital Cinema), with Digital Cinema being the most accurate out of the box.

Rec.2020 is a target, and no current movie theater projection system or any home display can hit 100% of Rec.2020. There are some pro displays that can, but they are small and super-expensive, and only used by a handful of movie studios. Rec.2020 has always been an aspirational target that to hit will require about 1,000 nits of brightness (about 333 fL!) and 12-bit panels (10-bit panels are the current high-end). The best home and theater displays (at the time of this post) are reaching into the high 80% of Rec.2020, but nothing can hit 100% yet. Also note, the next (even higher) aspirational standard is called Rec.2100 (also BT.2100), that has even a larger color space than Rec.2020.

While movie producers use the Rec.2020 color space, they target the current subset of it that current display technology is capable of called DCI-P3. DCI-P3 lies about halfway between Rec.709 and Rec.2020. So, if the display can reach about 75% of Rec.2020, it will have near 100% coverage of DCI-P3. So, you can watch a film exactly as the producers intended with 100% of DCI-P3. The Epson covers about 87% of DCI-P3 in color modes without the color filter (Dynamic, Bright Room, and Natural), and over 100% of DCI-P3 in color modes with the color filter (Cinema, B&W Cinema, and Digital Cinema). So, with the Epson properly calibrated, you can experience a 4k HDR source mastered to DCI-P3 exactly as the movie producers intended.

I know that's a lot to digest, but movie production and display reproduction technology is complicated. And this post is a very simplified version of that complexity. Hope this post helps explain all that complexity in layman's terms and you find it useful.

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Last edited by jch2; 02-19-2020 at 08:46 AM.
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post #5519 of 5599 Old 02-19-2020, 04:00 AM
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Ok so now I have it mounted in the ceiling but haven't started using it yet
What do you do with the stickers? Do you remove them all or do you keep the warning stickers?

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post #5520 of 5599 Old 02-19-2020, 06:56 AM
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But, from normal viewing distances (more than 50% of the screen diagonal) and 20/20 vision, your eyes don't have the physical ability to tell the difference between 4 million (Epson pixel-shift) and 8 million pixels (true 4k).
Nice and detailed answer, but what's more is that you don't even get full 4K resolution from a 4K Bluray and therefore the calculations about what people can and cannot see are all far too much in favor of the 4K source.

Consumer UHD video is compressed by a factor of about 100:1 and color resolution is half (4:2:0 chroma subsampling). It will rarely contain much more detail than a version downscaled to 2K and then transmitted to the display device uncompressed, not even taking into account the issues with filming/photography at 4K+ resolution (you should have enough light, you cannot stop down too much because of diffraction, etc).

Of course there is more detail than on a normal Bluray, because the same applies there - it isn't really 1080 lines you're getting. But the display device does not need to have full 4K resolution for additional detail, except it avoids scaling issues.

From a few tests with down- and upscaling, my guess is that 4K shift is similar to the 2560x1440 resolution of many monitors, and that this comes pretty close to what we are getting from well produced discs.
"True" 4K is the optimum of course, but smaller pixels have a potential for different problems like reduced contrast and light output.

I would only consider a 4K display matrix a big advantage if I had uncompressed signal sources, like a PC. Even there, 3D cards are using tricks like texture compression.
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Last edited by audiophobe; 02-19-2020 at 07:02 AM.
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